marks on a TR will increase the damage the TR will get by a very little percentage and thats all.
There's that, and it makes them a bit easier to spot, even in stealth.
It starts from 5:40. It takes a few reruns but you can see how x does mark the spot. Not as bright as without stealth, but still, it's there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZKvbyTNbHA
There's that, and it makes them a bit easier to spot, even in stealth.
It starts from 5:40. It takes a few reruns but you can see how x does mark the spot. Not as bright as without stealth, but still, it's there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZKvbyTNbHA
do you enjoy lying?
The stealthed TR is visible at 5:40 because its targeted by the CW! The "X" is visible too. Both (the TR and the "X") are not visible perfectly while the TR is stealthed but targeted. Its normal!
The main problem is still there:
How to target a perma stealth TR which is not acting as stupid as the TRs in the videos?!
Marks given by GF do not change ANYTHING because the marks are invisible too. If a player is already targeting a TR, the "X" doesnt improve anything except the damage.
If you want people to stay for the match end even when you're sitting on a 600-10 score and you've decided to be ***-hats and spawn-camp, you need to give them a reason. Punishing them is not the answer. That's just pouring salt-acid into an already bleeding wound.
Get on youtube and watch some permastealth rogues play. Watch how they move, when they move, when they attack, who they attack...
You are probably not going to find a lot of videos where the rogue gets annihilated, but it happens. At least in the videos that ARE out there, you can see when the rogue gets wounded and has to run off -- and you can see what did it. Even the best rogue players who usually stay back and throw knives get tagged.
You are probably not going to find a lot of videos where the rogue gets annihilated, but it happens.
Ah... when i meet a perma stealth abusing child most CWs are dead instantly, clerics will be killed in a second, single nodes will be captured and everyone who is trying to recapture it will be killed without a chance. Normally the perma stealthers got something around 20:1 or 20:2 kills.
Yea, they get killed... maybe up to 3 times in a whole match... but it happens. WOW. very helpful.
At least in the videos that ARE out there, you can see when the rogue gets wounded and has to run off -- and you can see what did it. Even the best rogue players who usually stay back and throw knives get tagged.
yea some lucky dailies force the TR to run away. Most other classes would have been killed within a second, but the TR is running away with 2365634543 movement speed. sounds nice.
If you want people to stay for the match end even when you're sitting on a 600-10 score and you've decided to be ***-hats and spawn-camp, you need to give them a reason. Punishing them is not the answer. That's just pouring salt-acid into an already bleeding wound.
So basically what you are saying is that you have already given up.
Okay, I get it.
Listen... I'm just going to level with you here: the devs are not going to redesign the Trickster Rogue class. They're just not. It's up to you whether or not you want to try to adapt to how things are in Neverwinter... nobody is forcing you to play this game. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and saying "Win PVP or else".
If this has ceased to be fun for you, then maybe it is time to move on. As I've said several times already, I can totally understand the frustration of trying to fight an opponent that you cannot see. A well-played stealth TR is confounding and excels at harrassing his enemies, and if he is overgeared compared to his opponents, even deadly. 99% of the ones who are played well will choose their battles very carefully (because stealth allows them to), and oftentimes will ambush only when the cards are stacked in their favor. Many rogues pad their kill scores by stealing kills from their teammates because they can. Nobody is saying that they aren't an opportunistic and even selfish (at times) lot of miscreants. LOL For the most part, we are not talking about the Boy Scouts here.
But you're a GF, man! Like the kryptonite to superman... you're the class that's good at wiping out these shifty-eyed misfits. May I make one last suggestion before we are done here? Do yourself a favor, and start a thread in the Barracks entitled "How does a GF beat a stealth rogue?" Refrain from exaggerating and making overblown claims as to how the TR is "untouchable" or whatever... just ask that question politely and wait for the responses. Do not attempt to argue with the folks who answer your question... consider what they have to say, and ask for emphasis or clarifications if anything is unclear. I am about 90% sure that you will receive more than a couple of very good answers from GFs who know what they are talking about and can help you get past this stumbling block you are experiencing.
All you have to do is ask politely in an adult manner, and thank everyone who responds and treat them with respect.... and guess what? YOU will be treated with respect in kind -- as I have attempted to do here in this thread.
PS You might want to do something about your sig... it's funny, but maybe folks in the barracks section will take you more seriously if you just get rid of it for a while. After you get your questions answered, you can always add it back.
I'm sorry but I have to laugh at this current topic of conversation of saying that a rogue that is within the range of seeing through his stealth is somehow more visible due to an X on his head. Yes X marks the spot, but that spot is visible regardless of whether there's an X or not. The X is not visible if the spot is not within range of being targeted through its stealth.
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greeniewolf0Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 83
edited July 2013
I think as a "heathen" it is time for me to jump in this argument. As a rouge player whose rogue is very much NOT a stealth build, and who relies on stealth as little as possible, let me tell you exactly why that is.
Because regardless of how good your gear is, unless your timing is just exactly right, you will die brutally and often.
I for one cannot make that timing. Due to numerous medical conditions that cause a persistent mild tremor in my hands and slower than average eye-hand coordination, my ability to maintain the perma-stealth was something of a tossup.
Instead, my only nod to stealth was grabbing the 3 second boost to the basic stealth. Everything else went into either boosting my crit or my recovery even to the point where I forgo "required" abilities like "Bait and switch" and "Impossible to catch."
In PvE I can take usually take out the trash mobs fairly quickly, though bosses and even some mid range mobs can be a challenge depending on what abilities they have.
PVP though is more interesting. Depending on who I am up against I am either in the very top or very bottom. If I am against players that know their class well, at best its a matter of who can get the first strike, at worst its suicide.
If I am up against players that do not know their class well, even with t2 gear, I can wipe them.
GFs that know their class can block most of my attacks and wait for openings then take me down with a couple of hits.
GWFs that know what they are doing can stun me then kill me at their leisure.
CWs can immobilize me and/or aoe me to death when i run out of stamina.
Surprisingly, it is Clerics that give me the most trouble, mainly because they can knock me back and then hit me with rapid fire ranged at will attacks when I try and close in.
Any of these classes though, I can take out if their players don't know how to play them. With my build, if I am able to close in, I nail you with flurries that do a lot of damage or I do a stun, shocking execution combo that if not outright fatal allows for an easy pick off with cos or another flurry.
Rouges are the ones that are most interesting to face off with though. A really good stealth or perma-stealthed rogue has a good shot of taking me out if they can get right up on me undetected and stun me. All too often though, I come across those that are so relient on stealth that they actually give themselves away and I am able to either roll out or stealth myself and escape. I often hear I "don't know how to play my class" even by non rogues, especially when they find out I dont have impossible to catch or bait and switch and tell me I need to respec to become a perma-stealth rogue. I find that amusing, in part because as mentioned before, for me a perma-stealth rogue is too hard to play, especially in a pvp setting. I also find it amusing that people ask me if I get tired of dying so often in pvp with my build. I go into pvp knowing full well if I can't hit fast and hard I'm gonna die.
Perma-stealth builds are hard to get right and gear right, and even harder to play right. If built, geared, and played well, they can seem overpowered, but so can any other class. The so called over-powered (insert class here) do not bother me. The whiners that cry wolf about overpowered classes DO both me some. But what really bothers me are the hackers that use the teleport when taking damage hacks because they are too lazy to learn their classes or too obsessed with winning to risk dying.
I'm sorry but I have to laugh at this current topic of conversation of saying that a rogue that is within the range of seeing through his stealth is somehow more visible due to an X on his head. Yes X marks the spot, but that spot is visible regardless of whether there's an X or not. The X is not visible if the spot is not within range of being targeted through its stealth.
I'll do a mea culpae to get this focus on the big red X sorted. I said "X marks the spot", thinking it would get the message across better than "that yellow DC thingy will make the TR more visible", or "that crackling stuff a GWF can apply will show a rogue better".
Now, you can argue that I'm lying because that big red X isn't as bright as non-stealth, or you can go out and see in the arena how it works. EIther way, the video I linked to shows what I'm talking about.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'll do a mea culpae to get this focus on the big red X sorted. I said "X marks the spot", thinking it would get the message across better than "that yellow DC thingy will make the TR more visible", or "that crackling stuff a GWF can apply will show a rogue better".
Now, you can argue that I'm lying because that big red X isn't as bright as non-stealth, or you can go out and see in the arena how it works. EIther way, the video I linked to shows what I'm talking about.
Well I've watched the section of video you posted 10+ times and still don't know to what you are referring. The X's were visible on rogues that were visible whether in range to be targeted through stealth or unstealthed. What are folks going to learn in the arena that they don't already know? Are some effects visible on a rogue if landed before they stealths? Yes. Are they targetable without getting in range to see through stealth? No. I have never had an issue where I was made, due to an X on my head giving away my position.
Well I've watched the section of video you posted 10+ times and still don't know to what you are referring. The X's were visible on rogues that were visible whether in range to be targeted through stealth or unstealthed. What are folks going to learn in the arena that they don't already know? Are some effects visible on a rogue if landed before they stealths? Yes. Are they targetable without getting in range to see through stealth? No. I have never had an issue where I was made, due to an X on my head giving away my position.
The clip is from a pre-60 CW, starting from 5:40 you can see him and a few teammates (in the background) fight a couple of TR's. You can see the effect of Enfeebling Ray shining through the TR's stealth. There is also a 'stealthed' TR in the background, being visible due to an effect.
Again, you're right, there is no huge, bright red X, it's a big transparent red X. My bad.
* Also, it should be noted that rogues who are in stealth are still very able to get effects such as Mark, Conduit of Ice, etc. applied to them. This makes spotting a stealthed rogue much easier for the player and his teammates.
The bold part is important.
Well, you think the discussion about the "X" is over, but you are still showing wrong informations. All effects applied to a stealthed TR are stealthed too. Your informations are still wrong.
If you want people to stay for the match end even when you're sitting on a 600-10 score and you've decided to be ***-hats and spawn-camp, you need to give them a reason. Punishing them is not the answer. That's just pouring salt-acid into an already bleeding wound.
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yaubotMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
The bold part is important.
Well, you think the discussion about the "X" is over, but you are still showing wrong informations. All effects applied to a stealthed TR are stealthed too. Your informations are still wrong.
This is correct, Ray of enfeeblement will not show as well. Only active stuns such as entangling force will pop a rogue from stealth however once the duration is over it will be stealthed again.
If it will help to stem the tide of insults, personal attacks, and accusations, then I will edit the FAQ.
Thank you for taking the time to bring this to my attention, and I apologize for any misunderstandings generated by the FAQ.
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filcMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
l0th4ri0, in point 2 you forget to mention Improved Cunning Sneak (20% longer stealth) and full PvP Set bonus (20% or 25%). My stealth bar is bout 8 seconds.
l0th4ri0, in point 2 you forget to mention Improved Cunning Sneak (20% longer stealth) and full PvP Set bonus (20% or 25%). My stealth bar is bout 8 seconds.
Hi, filc... the sneak feats were mentioned in point 1.
But you're right, I forgot to add the effects from the PVP gear. Thank you!
The bold part is important.
Well, you think the discussion about the "X" is over, but you are still showing wrong informations. All effects applied to a stealthed TR are stealthed too. Your informations are still wrong.
Not exactly true... There are some effects that will show even while stealthed. IIRC the CW's have have a whirlwind DoT that will show and follow a stealthed rogue.
Not exactly true... There are some effects that will show even while stealthed. IIRC the CW's have have a whirlwind DoT that will show and follow a stealthed rogue.
Thanks, kabothoriginal, but at this point I'd rather just try to stop the senseless bickering about such a minor thing to save room for quality input from experienced players, or for questions and/or other feedback. IMO there has been enough splitting hairs in this thread as it is.
IIRC the Conduit of Ice does indeed reveal a stealthed rogue regardless of if he is in the target reticle or not, but honestly it's not worth it to keep going like this in this vein. LOL there are probably other exceptions as well.
I think Astral Seal does it too, I know my daggers will stick in a stealthed rogue I can follow the floating daggers. I also know that other CW's advise that Conduit of Ice (I couldn't recall the name thanks) will follow a stealthed rogue. Just look in their forums.
Rogues were nerfed hard contrary to popular belief, Shocking Execution is worthless in PVP now. They also don't realize that hitting 25k+ Lashing Blade requires the use of stealth and gear and more than likely Lurkers Assault (a daily).
They need to up their defenses, but when I inspect people the largest thing that seems to be neglected is Defense.
Rogues were nerfed hard contrary to popular belief, Shocking Execution is worthless in PVP now. They also don't realize that hitting 25k+ Lashing Blade requires the use of stealth and gear and more than likely Lurkers Assault (a daily).
Haha, also a crit and crit severity bonuses from vorpal/Executioner feats. It's easy to say "oh TRs just hit 25k+ without trying", but you're right about needing a perfect set of factors to line up together, for the most part. Daily + Gear + Encounter + Feat investments into a specific paragon path + Luck.
We can help the luck factor along by building a certain way with +DEX and heroic feats and stacking crit enchants... but our victims have to also not know about how easy it is to dodge the Lashing Blade after the fact, or be drained enough of stamina that they cannot dodge in the first place.
EDIT: which reminds me... about dodging LB: is it too late for them to dodge after the knife appears and then disappears? How much of a "grace period" is there, exactly? Does anybody now the exact outer limit of that?
I will say this, after getting full skulkers and a newly made vorpal chant, my Lashing Blade went from maybe, to use a lot more. I still use Impact Shot in GG PVP though. ItC and Smoke never leave my encounters bar. I do pretty well, I am not super uber pvp, usually a 2/1 kd ratio. I am sure I cause some players some frustration, I play evasive/defensive and try to utilize stealth as much as possible for dps. I am not a perma stealth build, but I do use stealth to evade sometimes, I also use smoke, dodge and LOS to evade. I can escape most of the time and heal and come back. So using stealth is a big deal and seeing them want to nerf stealth is concerning.
I mean there are a lot of GF's that can eat my rogues lunch for the most part but I am not QQ'ing them, and a decent GWF can usually take me down as well. DC's are just annoying to beat on, so usually I hunt CW's and other TR's, they are the easiest to take down, but I digress. My point is I am not crying that 2 classes (with all things being equal) can take my rogue down.
This is a very well made post, l0th4ri0. I'm glad you put in this effort considering the amount of times my guild’s stealth rouge gets called a hacker, cheater or exploiter.
I've noticed that in most games when a stealth rogue is present, me and the rest of my team will capture 1 and 2 and the rest of them will be standing at their back point doing nothing as our stealth rogue runs around it. These people quite literally do nothing - they don't even try to hit the air or find him; they essentially surrender before the game begins, and this common attitude towards stealth is what makes it seem so powerful. Of course, if you don't attack him or try and fight him, he will kill you - the same goes with people who refuse to retreat. Don't have your health whittled down to basically nothing when standing there – instead, run for a health pot. Don't let yourself get defeated and complain when it was a preventable death.
Counters consist of two things at the moment. As a Guardian Fighter, listen for blade direction and frontline surge them, then move up on their direction. The second option (which is for pretty much every other class), is to use an Area of Effect. For example: Path of Blades, Slam or Arcane Singularity. Basically anything that will hurt them even if they are stealthed.
You also want to aim to be unpredictable as a Guardian Fighter, trying to counter a stealth rouge. As a Guardian Fighter, you have health and defence on your side, so be willing to take a few hits if it means you get the opening you need to move towards them. Don't use the maximum range of frontline surge if you don't need to. You can also use your shield if you feel the need to mitigate the damage. As for the unpredictability in general, you can achieve this by not using the same time frames for attacking, for example, if you don’t frontline surge when they first expect it, they will be unsure when it’s going to happen. It’s hard to explain this part as it comes down to instinct of knowing when is best to use the skill.
Path of blades is a great skill for a rouge to use to counter stealth rouge. This skill constantly hits them taking of their stealth bar and increases time pressures on a stealth rouge. The more pressure you can put the stealth rouge under the higher chance they will mess up their rotation.
In domination, you also want to pay attention to the points that you are on throughout a fight with stealth rouge. If the point in contested, they are still with you, however in some circumstances they may actually leave the circle during the combat. Pay attention to this, as it’s a sign that they have fled the fight or have gone into hiding and are waiting for you to leave. If you are chasing them round a tower make sure that you also don’t just run in a clockwise circle or counter clockwise circle, be sporadic with your movements so that they can’t predict where you are going to search for them next.
Another important point with many rogues who use Cloud of Steel is that they will get greedy - many will refuse to dodge until they really have to, as Cloud of Steel causes more damage as more daggers hit the target. This makes many rouges want to throw all 12 daggers at a single target without interruption to maximise damage output. Use this to your advantage and try and get them whilst they are throwing daggers.
And finally, not all stealth rouges are huge damage dealers. There are many out there who can’t do much damage; a large portion of stealth rouges sacrifice their damage output to stay invisible permanently, so I will leave you with some examples of my guild’s stealth rouge’s scores in our game. In domination it really isn’t about the kills - it’s the tactical presence.
Thurandill is our stealth rouge, also note that only people in my guild are visible in the picture.
Sons of Schlarb
Thaddeus Talbot - GF - Dragon
Aysta Tarley - TR - Dragon
... So using stealth is a big deal and seeing them want to nerf stealth is concerning.
Honestly, my friend... the chances of a nerf to stealth are zero point zero percent. Anybody who takes the five seconds to scan the laundry list in the FAQ of abilities and gear we have to prolong stealth just has to come to that understanding. This is on purpose by the devs... long stealths are going to happen.
I think that maybe there are a lot of QQers out there who did not expect the stealth mechanics in Neverwinter to work the way they do. It is somewhat unique in this game... which is another reason it won't get nerfed. It's a branding sort of thing that sets us apart from other MMOs.
But as we have seen, this clash of expectations vs. reality is too much for some. We see comments like "the TR shouldn't be able to... <insert gripe>" and then they feel that they have a valid argument to defend, because what happens in this game and what happens in other MMOs does not jive.
They need to up their defenses, but when I inspect people the largest thing that seems to be neglected is Defense.
This is true of rogues in general but particularly of stealth rogues since that is just one of the things that people need to sacrifice for more stealth. Hence the creation of the two-mode TR, stealth and dead.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
This is true of rogues in general but particularly of stealth rogues since that is just one of the things that people need to sacrifice for more stealth. Hence the creation of the two-mode TR, stealth and dead.
Well I am not super pimped out, I work hard for my money LOL. I can say that once I turned up the numbers on my defense my survivability increased tremendously, also learning to play better and more efficiently.
At around 40seconds, check at his feet and then where the attacks are coming from. I'll keep it at that, so no case could be made I'm lying or somesuch.
Well I understand frustration, trust me, there are GF's that throw me across the planet, taking 90% of my life and as I am scooping my self out of the dirt, they finish me off. I had to learn to not let them close to me and sometimes that still doesn't help, especially in GG. I try not to 1v1 them, its easier to go around them, GWF's can be more of a headache than anything. I have learned and changed tactics, and my frustration levels have went down quite considerably. Just no reason to be bitter about a digital game and blindly hate players that play something he cant beat. There is no god class that can kill anyone and every class, contrary to popular belief.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
At around 40seconds, check at his feet and then where the attacks are coming from. I'll keep it at that, so no case could be made I'm lying or somesuch.
Are you pointing out server side latency allowing abilities that were cast before line of sight was lost to land even though it looks like it shouldn't be possible? CoS or Impact shot works just the same.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Rogues were nerfed hard contrary to popular belief, Shocking Execution is worthless in PVP now. They also don't realize that hitting 25k+ Lashing Blade requires the use of stealth and gear and more than likely Lurkers Assault (a daily).
They need to up their defenses, but when I inspect people the largest thing that seems to be neglected is Defense.
Shocking execution is worthless? Explain to me how a ranged undefendable attack that essentially kills and stomps opponents at 30% health (40% on squishies) that is usable with feats to allow the person to never even leave stealth to use, is worthless?
Then explain to me how, with the nerf to shocking execution, they increased how power scales with rogue damage abilities is also a "hard nerf"?
Lol, I 30k LB's without trying. You make it sound as if having gear/spec, pushing stealth, lurker's assault, and lashing blade is some sort of difficult combination to produce. :rolleyes:
Comments
There's that, and it makes them a bit easier to spot, even in stealth.
It starts from 5:40. It takes a few reruns but you can see how x does mark the spot. Not as bright as without stealth, but still, it's there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZKvbyTNbHA
do you enjoy lying?
The stealthed TR is visible at 5:40 because its targeted by the CW! The "X" is visible too. Both (the TR and the "X") are not visible perfectly while the TR is stealthed but targeted. Its normal!
The main problem is still there:
How to target a perma stealth TR which is not acting as stupid as the TRs in the videos?!
Marks given by GF do not change ANYTHING because the marks are invisible too. If a player is already targeting a TR, the "X" doesnt improve anything except the damage.
And here is the reason:
Get on youtube and watch some permastealth rogues play. Watch how they move, when they move, when they attack, who they attack...
You are probably not going to find a lot of videos where the rogue gets annihilated, but it happens. At least in the videos that ARE out there, you can see when the rogue gets wounded and has to run off -- and you can see what did it. Even the best rogue players who usually stay back and throw knives get tagged.
Yea, they get killed... maybe up to 3 times in a whole match... but it happens. WOW. very helpful.
yea some lucky dailies force the TR to run away. Most other classes would have been killed within a second, but the TR is running away with 2365634543 movement speed. sounds nice.
And here is the reason:
Okay, I get it.
Listen... I'm just going to level with you here: the devs are not going to redesign the Trickster Rogue class. They're just not. It's up to you whether or not you want to try to adapt to how things are in Neverwinter... nobody is forcing you to play this game. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and saying "Win PVP or else".
If this has ceased to be fun for you, then maybe it is time to move on. As I've said several times already, I can totally understand the frustration of trying to fight an opponent that you cannot see. A well-played stealth TR is confounding and excels at harrassing his enemies, and if he is overgeared compared to his opponents, even deadly. 99% of the ones who are played well will choose their battles very carefully (because stealth allows them to), and oftentimes will ambush only when the cards are stacked in their favor. Many rogues pad their kill scores by stealing kills from their teammates because they can. Nobody is saying that they aren't an opportunistic and even selfish (at times) lot of miscreants. LOL For the most part, we are not talking about the Boy Scouts here.
But you're a GF, man! Like the kryptonite to superman... you're the class that's good at wiping out these shifty-eyed misfits. May I make one last suggestion before we are done here? Do yourself a favor, and start a thread in the Barracks entitled "How does a GF beat a stealth rogue?" Refrain from exaggerating and making overblown claims as to how the TR is "untouchable" or whatever... just ask that question politely and wait for the responses. Do not attempt to argue with the folks who answer your question... consider what they have to say, and ask for emphasis or clarifications if anything is unclear. I am about 90% sure that you will receive more than a couple of very good answers from GFs who know what they are talking about and can help you get past this stumbling block you are experiencing.
All you have to do is ask politely in an adult manner, and thank everyone who responds and treat them with respect.... and guess what? YOU will be treated with respect in kind -- as I have attempted to do here in this thread.
PS You might want to do something about your sig... it's funny, but maybe folks in the barracks section will take you more seriously if you just get rid of it for a while. After you get your questions answered, you can always add it back.
Because regardless of how good your gear is, unless your timing is just exactly right, you will die brutally and often.
I for one cannot make that timing. Due to numerous medical conditions that cause a persistent mild tremor in my hands and slower than average eye-hand coordination, my ability to maintain the perma-stealth was something of a tossup.
Instead, my only nod to stealth was grabbing the 3 second boost to the basic stealth. Everything else went into either boosting my crit or my recovery even to the point where I forgo "required" abilities like "Bait and switch" and "Impossible to catch."
In PvE I can take usually take out the trash mobs fairly quickly, though bosses and even some mid range mobs can be a challenge depending on what abilities they have.
PVP though is more interesting. Depending on who I am up against I am either in the very top or very bottom. If I am against players that know their class well, at best its a matter of who can get the first strike, at worst its suicide.
If I am up against players that do not know their class well, even with t2 gear, I can wipe them.
GFs that know their class can block most of my attacks and wait for openings then take me down with a couple of hits.
GWFs that know what they are doing can stun me then kill me at their leisure.
CWs can immobilize me and/or aoe me to death when i run out of stamina.
Surprisingly, it is Clerics that give me the most trouble, mainly because they can knock me back and then hit me with rapid fire ranged at will attacks when I try and close in.
Any of these classes though, I can take out if their players don't know how to play them. With my build, if I am able to close in, I nail you with flurries that do a lot of damage or I do a stun, shocking execution combo that if not outright fatal allows for an easy pick off with cos or another flurry.
Rouges are the ones that are most interesting to face off with though. A really good stealth or perma-stealthed rogue has a good shot of taking me out if they can get right up on me undetected and stun me. All too often though, I come across those that are so relient on stealth that they actually give themselves away and I am able to either roll out or stealth myself and escape. I often hear I "don't know how to play my class" even by non rogues, especially when they find out I dont have impossible to catch or bait and switch and tell me I need to respec to become a perma-stealth rogue. I find that amusing, in part because as mentioned before, for me a perma-stealth rogue is too hard to play, especially in a pvp setting. I also find it amusing that people ask me if I get tired of dying so often in pvp with my build. I go into pvp knowing full well if I can't hit fast and hard I'm gonna die.
Perma-stealth builds are hard to get right and gear right, and even harder to play right. If built, geared, and played well, they can seem overpowered, but so can any other class. The so called over-powered (insert class here) do not bother me. The whiners that cry wolf about overpowered classes DO both me some. But what really bothers me are the hackers that use the teleport when taking damage hacks because they are too lazy to learn their classes or too obsessed with winning to risk dying.
I'll do a mea culpae to get this focus on the big red X sorted. I said "X marks the spot", thinking it would get the message across better than "that yellow DC thingy will make the TR more visible", or "that crackling stuff a GWF can apply will show a rogue better".
Now, you can argue that I'm lying because that big red X isn't as bright as non-stealth, or you can go out and see in the arena how it works. EIther way, the video I linked to shows what I'm talking about.
Well I've watched the section of video you posted 10+ times and still don't know to what you are referring. The X's were visible on rogues that were visible whether in range to be targeted through stealth or unstealthed. What are folks going to learn in the arena that they don't already know? Are some effects visible on a rogue if landed before they stealths? Yes. Are they targetable without getting in range to see through stealth? No. I have never had an issue where I was made, due to an X on my head giving away my position.
The clip is from a pre-60 CW, starting from 5:40 you can see him and a few teammates (in the background) fight a couple of TR's. You can see the effect of Enfeebling Ray shining through the TR's stealth. There is also a 'stealthed' TR in the background, being visible due to an effect.
Again, you're right, there is no huge, bright red X, it's a big transparent red X. My bad.
The bold part is important.
Well, you think the discussion about the "X" is over, but you are still showing wrong informations. All effects applied to a stealthed TR are stealthed too. Your informations are still wrong.
And here is the reason:
This is correct, Ray of enfeeblement will not show as well. Only active stuns such as entangling force will pop a rogue from stealth however once the duration is over it will be stealthed again.
Thank you for taking the time to bring this to my attention, and I apologize for any misunderstandings generated by the FAQ.
Hi, filc... the sneak feats were mentioned in point 1.
But you're right, I forgot to add the effects from the PVP gear. Thank you!
Not exactly true... There are some effects that will show even while stealthed. IIRC the CW's have have a whirlwind DoT that will show and follow a stealthed rogue.
Thanks, kabothoriginal, but at this point I'd rather just try to stop the senseless bickering about such a minor thing to save room for quality input from experienced players, or for questions and/or other feedback. IMO there has been enough splitting hairs in this thread as it is.
IIRC the Conduit of Ice does indeed reveal a stealthed rogue regardless of if he is in the target reticle or not, but honestly it's not worth it to keep going like this in this vein.
Rogues were nerfed hard contrary to popular belief, Shocking Execution is worthless in PVP now. They also don't realize that hitting 25k+ Lashing Blade requires the use of stealth and gear and more than likely Lurkers Assault (a daily).
They need to up their defenses, but when I inspect people the largest thing that seems to be neglected is Defense.
Haha, also a crit and crit severity bonuses from vorpal/Executioner feats. It's easy to say "oh TRs just hit 25k+ without trying", but you're right about needing a perfect set of factors to line up together, for the most part. Daily + Gear + Encounter + Feat investments into a specific paragon path + Luck.
We can help the luck factor along by building a certain way with +DEX and heroic feats and stacking crit enchants... but our victims have to also not know about how easy it is to dodge the Lashing Blade after the fact, or be drained enough of stamina that they cannot dodge in the first place.
EDIT: which reminds me... about dodging LB: is it too late for them to dodge after the knife appears and then disappears? How much of a "grace period" is there, exactly? Does anybody now the exact outer limit of that?
I mean there are a lot of GF's that can eat my rogues lunch for the most part but I am not QQ'ing them, and a decent GWF can usually take me down as well. DC's are just annoying to beat on, so usually I hunt CW's and other TR's, they are the easiest to take down, but I digress. My point is I am not crying that 2 classes (with all things being equal) can take my rogue down.
I've noticed that in most games when a stealth rogue is present, me and the rest of my team will capture 1 and 2 and the rest of them will be standing at their back point doing nothing as our stealth rogue runs around it. These people quite literally do nothing - they don't even try to hit the air or find him; they essentially surrender before the game begins, and this common attitude towards stealth is what makes it seem so powerful. Of course, if you don't attack him or try and fight him, he will kill you - the same goes with people who refuse to retreat. Don't have your health whittled down to basically nothing when standing there – instead, run for a health pot. Don't let yourself get defeated and complain when it was a preventable death.
Counters consist of two things at the moment. As a Guardian Fighter, listen for blade direction and frontline surge them, then move up on their direction. The second option (which is for pretty much every other class), is to use an Area of Effect. For example: Path of Blades, Slam or Arcane Singularity. Basically anything that will hurt them even if they are stealthed.
You also want to aim to be unpredictable as a Guardian Fighter, trying to counter a stealth rouge. As a Guardian Fighter, you have health and defence on your side, so be willing to take a few hits if it means you get the opening you need to move towards them. Don't use the maximum range of frontline surge if you don't need to. You can also use your shield if you feel the need to mitigate the damage. As for the unpredictability in general, you can achieve this by not using the same time frames for attacking, for example, if you don’t frontline surge when they first expect it, they will be unsure when it’s going to happen. It’s hard to explain this part as it comes down to instinct of knowing when is best to use the skill.
Path of blades is a great skill for a rouge to use to counter stealth rouge. This skill constantly hits them taking of their stealth bar and increases time pressures on a stealth rouge. The more pressure you can put the stealth rouge under the higher chance they will mess up their rotation.
In domination, you also want to pay attention to the points that you are on throughout a fight with stealth rouge. If the point in contested, they are still with you, however in some circumstances they may actually leave the circle during the combat. Pay attention to this, as it’s a sign that they have fled the fight or have gone into hiding and are waiting for you to leave. If you are chasing them round a tower make sure that you also don’t just run in a clockwise circle or counter clockwise circle, be sporadic with your movements so that they can’t predict where you are going to search for them next.
Another important point with many rogues who use Cloud of Steel is that they will get greedy - many will refuse to dodge until they really have to, as Cloud of Steel causes more damage as more daggers hit the target. This makes many rouges want to throw all 12 daggers at a single target without interruption to maximise damage output. Use this to your advantage and try and get them whilst they are throwing daggers.
And finally, not all stealth rouges are huge damage dealers. There are many out there who can’t do much damage; a large portion of stealth rouges sacrifice their damage output to stay invisible permanently, so I will leave you with some examples of my guild’s stealth rouge’s scores in our game. In domination it really isn’t about the kills - it’s the tactical presence.
Thurandill is our stealth rouge, also note that only people in my guild are visible in the picture.
Thaddeus Talbot - GF - Dragon
Aysta Tarley - TR - Dragon
Honestly, my friend... the chances of a nerf to stealth are zero point zero percent. Anybody who takes the five seconds to scan the laundry list in the FAQ of abilities and gear we have to prolong stealth just has to come to that understanding. This is on purpose by the devs... long stealths are going to happen.
I think that maybe there are a lot of QQers out there who did not expect the stealth mechanics in Neverwinter to work the way they do. It is somewhat unique in this game... which is another reason it won't get nerfed. It's a branding sort of thing that sets us apart from other MMOs.
But as we have seen, this clash of expectations vs. reality is too much for some. We see comments like "the TR shouldn't be able to... <insert gripe>" and then they feel that they have a valid argument to defend, because what happens in this game and what happens in other MMOs does not jive.
Thank you!
This is true of rogues in general but particularly of stealth rogues since that is just one of the things that people need to sacrifice for more stealth. Hence the creation of the two-mode TR, stealth and dead.
Well I am not super pimped out, I work hard for my money LOL. I can say that once I turned up the numbers on my defense my survivability increased tremendously, also learning to play better and more efficiently.
I'll add one more, and I'm sure my TR is going to hate this (and all the other good stuff you've been disclosing):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YlWcbi7laY
At around 40seconds, check at his feet and then where the attacks are coming from. I'll keep it at that, so no case could be made I'm lying or somesuch.
Are you pointing out server side latency allowing abilities that were cast before line of sight was lost to land even though it looks like it shouldn't be possible? CoS or Impact shot works just the same.
Shocking execution is worthless? Explain to me how a ranged undefendable attack that essentially kills and stomps opponents at 30% health (40% on squishies) that is usable with feats to allow the person to never even leave stealth to use, is worthless?
Then explain to me how, with the nerf to shocking execution, they increased how power scales with rogue damage abilities is also a "hard nerf"?
Lol, I 30k LB's without trying. You make it sound as if having gear/spec, pushing stealth, lurker's assault, and lashing blade is some sort of difficult combination to produce. :rolleyes: