You need to realize that when the TR moves, CoS is reset and goes back to doing minimal damage. With only 12 charges and a very long cooldown on the recharge, it's simply bad tactics to throw a couple of daggers and then roll in order to throw some more wimpy daggers. When line of sight is broken, CoS resets. And EVERY class has the two feet to move behind a spire.
Ah excellent input, I'll add this to the FAQ. Thanks, yerune!
Anyway you won't ever be 100% perma stealth with gloaming gut.
Maybe not in PvP (then again, 'permastealth' also requires a target) but in pve 100% uptime on stealth while fighting is 100% possible with Gloaming Cut.
Anyway let's move on. I don't know if you ever tried Sneaky Stabber for real. I have some doubts, because if you ever did you should have noticed that gloaming gut has a 1-1.2s animation. Sneaky Stabber refills your stealth meter by 10% per strike (not per hit) which is about 0.5s more stealth duration while already stealthed (unless you're wearing the PvP set, but it's just a 0.1-0.2s difference with improved cunning sneak maxed).
It would work if you were actually able to kill anyone with gloaming gut but, truth is, it's incredibly hard and mostly due to luck.
This is not even considering the fact that you're in the middle of the fight, i.e. incredibly subject to high AoEs and CC that in turns reduce your stealth even further.
Anyway you won't ever be 100% perma stealth with gloaming gut.
As mentioned several times, permastealth with GC is in PVE scenarios. How it works is that you can wipe out all the trash mobs in one stealth without having to use your encounter powers to prolong it. As for if I have tried it out -- yes, and I love it for PVE... it stays on my bar after level 39, right next to duelists's flurry. As long as you can one or two-shot enough mobs with GC, then you will be getting enough stealth back to maintain your bar indefinitely. This is not theorycraft, I do this all the time.
LOL well I certainly welcome you to the "rogue fold", as it were, although I would advise you to not hold your breath for the nerfs. As it stands now, most players in high-end PVP can deal with permastealth rogues just fine, as they are actually weaker and squishier than non-permastealth rogues... which you will probably discover to your horror after a while of getting PWNed mercilessly by the other classes and other rogues.
At that point, I will not hold you to coming back here to correct all of your previous statements, as the bitter pill of truth will be enough to swallow all on its own.
Don't worry, this is my 2nd rogue and I'm well aware of what they are capable of. Thus the reason I call anybody defending the build irrational. Even some of the more renown pvper's admit the two most broken classes currently, are permastealth rogues and GWF.
The fact that you say rogues with this build are somehow "squishier" then any rogue that spec's dps makes me giggle. :rolleyes:
Don't worry though, when the nerf comes. I will not hold you to coming back here to correct all of your previous statements, as the uncomfortably large suppository of rationality melting to your rectums body temperature will be enough to endure all on its own. :cool:
You need to realize that when the TR moves, CoS is reset and goes back to doing minimal damage. With only 12 charges and a very long cooldown on the recharge, it's simply bad tactics to throw a couple of daggers and then roll in order to throw some more wimpy daggers. When line of sight is broken, CoS resets. And EVERY class has the two feet to move behind a spire.
Well the damage will be reduced in this case. But this does not matter at all. Throwing 4-5 daggers until the enemy realized whats happening is very easy. Then the enemy dodges or tries to block. CoS resets. But the TR dont need to hurry. He is stealthed. The amount of damage doesnt matter at all because the TR is very safe and the enemies must dodge/run away = success for TR.
If you want people to stay for the match end even when you're sitting on a 600-10 score and you've decided to be ***-hats and spawn-camp, you need to give them a reason. Punishing them is not the answer. That's just pouring salt-acid into an already bleeding wound.
Don't worry, this is my 2nd rogue and I'm well aware of what they are capable of. Thus the reason I call anybody defending the build irrational. Even some of the more renown pvper's admit the two most broken classes currently, are permastealth rogues and GWF.
They wouldn't by chance happen to be stacked with Vorpals and Tene's?
The fact that you say rogues with this build are somehow "squishier" then any rogue that spec's dps makes me giggle. :rolleyes:
Ah, allow me to clarify:
Does less damage = not able to defend oneself as easily, more likely to not scare off enemies = more attacks coming one's way = more damage suffered = squishier
Will your AC be the same? Sure, maybe. You can even have close to equal HP... maybe more? But good luck keeping the bad guys off of you... if you harass them enough, the good players are gonna come looking for you, and your bag of tricks consists of stuff that won't actually keep you alive and dangerous at melee. It's a tougher build to play than you might think... people that call it "easy mode" are mistaken.
They wouldn't by chance happen to be stacked with Vorpals and Tene's?
For maximum cheesiness you wouldn't use anything but! Any class can use them, but only one can from 60ft in the safety of stealth. If you have kept up with ex3lade's guide he used bilethorn and rank 7 recovery enchants before recently and did just fine in decimating folks. Now he has 5% more stealth and dmg while in stealth from GG armor and has changed his gear/spec for more burst lawlz.
There's no point in arguing with me, we just have a difference of opinion. We can agree to disagree like I have with other irrational folks. When the nerf bat comes a swinging. Duck! :rolleyes:
Does less damage = not able to defend oneself as easily, more likely to not scare off enemies = more attacks coming one's way = more damage suffered = squishier
Will your AC be the same? Sure, maybe. You can even have close to equal HP... maybe more? But good luck keeping the bad guys off of you... if you harass them enough, the good players are gonna come looking for you, and your bag of tricks consists of stuff that won't actually keep you alive and dangerous at melee. It's a tougher build to play than you might think... people that call it "easy mode" are mistaken.
You'll see soon enough, perhaps.
Assuming you aren't stacking P2W enchants... LOL
Yes I forgot that a rogue in stealth attacking from range is obviously the first target rather then the rogue popping on people in melee range... As for
seeing soon enough.
I won't see anything because for the most part perma stealth rogues are ignored in any team fights. If you spend your time chasing the guy in stealth while the visible guys are wailing on you. You're doing something wrong imo. And I wouldn't name a cheesy permastealth spec rogue Cheese Ball if I wasn't willing to spend the money for the extra cheesiness.
Then I wish you well, kulgribnar... but just answer one last thing right now -- do it for me and for our fabulous friendship we've forged over the past 3 forum posts here:
Does your P2W enchantment gear nullify the arguments you've been making about class balance, and how stealth is supposedly OP?
At least in your one particular case, you will have that "unfair advantage" I alluded to earlier on page 2. By taking the P2W road -- which is your right, and there is nothing wrong with that -- but haven't you effectively removed yourself from the estimation of what is balanced, and/or fair in comparison to most others who will not be packing the gear?
EDIT: By that same token, would you agree that PVP at levels 1-59 is fairly balanced among the classes? If so, what is it that happens at level 60 to throw balance into such disarray? And assuming you agree with me that it is the gear, ask yourself what the devs decide to base design decisions on for balancing... is it the OP builds that are paid for with real money, or do they base class balance decisions in a gear vacuum, assuming all other factors are equal? Knowing this, ask yourself just how likely that nerf bat is to swing now... everything is balanced before 60, and they want the P2W gear to matter enough to make people want to buy it.
Then I wish you well, kulgribnar... but just answer one last thing right now -- do it for me and for our fabulous friendship we've forged over the past 3 forum posts here:
Does your P2W enchantment gear nullify the arguments you've been making about class balance, and how stealth is supposedly OP?
At least in your one particular case, you will have that "unfair advantage" I alluded to earlier on page 2. By taking the P2W road -- which is your right, and there is nothing wrong with that -- but haven't you effectively removed yourself from the estimation of what is balanced, and/or fair in comparison to most others who will not be packing the gear?
EDIT: By that same token, would you agree that PVP at levels 1-59 is fairly balanced among the classes? If so, what is it that happens at level 60 to throw balance into such disarray? And assuming you agree with me that it is the gear, ask yourself what the devs decide to base design decisions on for balancing... is it the OP builds that are paid for with real money, or do they base class balance decisions in a gear vacuum, assuming all other factors are equal? Knowing this, ask yourself just how likely that nerf bat is to swing now... everything is balanced before 60, and they want the P2W gear to matter enough to make people want to buy it.
Did I just blow your mind?
x3lade's original guide did not incorporate tene or vorpal enchants.. and I believe his cost estimates put it roughly at around 1.25-1.5mil total to accomplish using bilethorn rank 7 silvery enchants. Not overly difficult to acquire 1.5m with the proper ambition. Here's his link, you can look through his videos of when he didn't have tene and vorpal and see if he's struggling.
Now insert vorpal and tene + 60ft range and steelf.... pop lurkers and pop off a couple 12-17k impact shot crits.. Should make for some rage inducing good times!
As far as 1-59 a properly played rogue never dies and can lay waste to any class 1v1. I know I had a couple 15-20/0 K/D matches on Cheese Ball a few hours ago in the lvl 20-29 bracket. So I wouldn't necessarily put all classes are evenly scaled at 1-59. I will agree that there is less of a gap that is introduced with gear in lvl 60 pvp scene unless you include the availabilty of gloomwrought weapons for the rogue available at 9,19,29,39,etc that have the dps and stats for weapons equal to weapons 10 levels higher. So feasibly using lvl 59 daggers in the 40-49 pvp bracket whereas the other classes equivalent are only available at 21,31,41 etc. (I believe it was designed this way to instill hatred for the rogue class in the infantile states of the game. Get an early start on the h8rade!)
is it the OP builds that are paid for with real money, or do they base class balance decisions in a gear vacuum, assuming all other factors are equal? Knowing this, ask yourself just how likely that nerf bat is to swing now...
As I said in my previous post, their development has been largely based off of what we players find as unbalanced through continued playing of the game. You say it's not. I say it is. Are they going to nerf enchantments across the board? They could, but that could upset some folks that paid them good money and dissuade others from paying any money to get them. Could they perhaps tweak the stealth mechanic to increase stealth drain when and only when CoS is used while in stealth? They could, but that could upset some folks that rely on ranged damage while remaining untargetable. Who knows!?
We can both throw out all the conjectures we want. I will agree to disagree good sir! Prepare for your suppository though!
Maybe not in PvP (then again, 'permastealth' also requires a target) but in pve 100% uptime on stealth while fighting is 100% possible with Gloaming Cut.
As mentioned several times, permastealth with GC is in PVE scenarios. How it works is that you can wipe out all the trash mobs in one stealth without having to use your encounter powers to prolong it. As for if I have tried it out -- yes, and I love it for PVE... it stays on my bar after level 39, right next to duelists's flurry. As long as you can one or two-shot enough mobs with GC, then you will be getting enough stealth back to maintain your bar indefinitely. This is not theorycraft, I do this all the time.
EDIT: LOL, ninja'd by yerune
You should also provide some information about your gear and stats in order to be accurate. If I had to make a fairly assumption based upon the fact that TR are supposed to deal damage and, occasionally, provide some additional CC, I'd say that you should go in PvE with PvE settings (i.e. no PvP set bonus even if it's just 1 more second of stealth). Given this assumption and given that your party won't wait for you to kill all the trash, you're pretty soon running out of easy killable (2-3 "shottable" ones) mobs and then the gloaming cut fest is over.
And of course this doesn't take into account the boss fights where gloaming cut is simply unusable due to the usually high boss' mobility/AoE damage and/or slowness/lack of CC immunity.
I'm writing this with a fact in mind: I run with a Ruthless Efficiency build and I know how hard it is just to keep 100% uptime with it (even if it has a 6 second duration).
But you can easily prove me wrong with a simple video. I always happy to see something different from what I've experienced.
I won't see anything because for the most part perma stealth rogues are ignored in any team fights. If you spend your time chasing the guy in stealth while the visible guys are wailing on you. You're doing something wrong imo. And I wouldn't name a cheesy permastealth spec rogue Cheese Ball if I wasn't willing to spend the money for the extra cheesiness.
1. You do not need any special gear or stats, just 3 ranks in it with 5/5 sneaky stabber
2. It works on trash mobs only -- elites/bosses have too many HP (use DF instead)
3. Yes, the animation takes 1 second, during which you will lose 20% of your bar unless you have 5/5 twilight adept for the 6 second max, in which case you lose 17% during that one second of animation. A kill with your feated GC restores 35% of your bar, so, yes -- you will need to one-shot occasionally to make up for only getting 10% for the ones that take two or three hits. Trash mobs with more HP than normal (like in DD's) will screw this up, although you will get a nice extension to stealth regardless.
I did not intend to convey that GC is the end-all be-all of stealth, but it really can be a cheap source of permastealth in select PVE settings. In the normal "soloable" PVE content, it essentially removes trash mobs from the tactical picture, greatly simplifying encounters with mobs. Personally, I believe that GC is a highly underrated skill by many... it hits very hard, and has a short-range zoom-attack feature that glues you to your target if you are within about 20 ft or so. In encounters with mixed groups of trash and elites, it can add a significant amount of stealth and safety when you mix in BnS, Lurker's, etc. I highly recommend for anyone playing a TR in PVE to give it a try as a replacement for SF. It is not going to be a replacement for DF, as there is nothing that even comes close to the usefulness of that bleed damage and 3rd hit barrage of pain.
I did not intend to convey that GC is the end-all be-all of stealth, but it really can be a cheap source of permastealth in select PVE settings. In the normal "soloable" PVE content, it essentially removes trash mobs from the tactical picture, greatly simplifying encounters with mobs. Personally, I believe that GC is a highly underrated skill by many... it hits very hard, and has a short-range zoom-attack feature that glues you to your target if you are within about 20 ft or so. In encounters with mixed groups of trash and elites, it can add a significant amount of stealth and safety when you mix in BnS, Lurker's, etc. I highly recommend for anyone playing a TR in PVE to give it a try as a replacement for SF. It is not going to be a replacement for DF, as there is nothing that even comes close to the usefulness of that bleed damage and 3rd hit barrage of pain.
So you're recommending for people to use 3 of their spec points on at will ability they may end up only finding useful during solo'able pve content? I will agree to disagree with you on this also, buddy 'ole pal.
As far as 1-59 a properly played rogue never dies and can lay waste to any class 1v1.
You do not know what you are talking about.
My CW won nearly every fight against rogues in 1-59, it is almost impossible for a rogue to touch a well played CW before 60 let alone "win", lol. Also a rogue of any skill level has almost no chance against a half decent GF, and I have many times seen DC's before level cap tanking two-three players.
The stealth build pre-60 is actually quite interesting to play for the challenge, and part of the challenge is knowing when to run (whenever you see a GF so not hard). It has a specific playstyle that is suited to backcapping, but loses most of its damage/and cc in exchange for staying in stealth and running fast in stealth.
I would say CW is the most "easy-mode" or "cheese" class until level-cap. It seems that I build up enough action points on my CW to cast an ice-knife (which seems to do more damage than shocking execution from range) in almost the time it takes lashing blade to come off CD. I never felt scared of any class while levelling through pvp- and certainly not rogues- on my CW except for well geared GF's at later levels.
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kristingraveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
I gotta say 11-59 pvp is fun, because you play before the cash shopping all rank 7-9 greater enchants players.
In low level PvP I felt like my cleric is OP lol, just due too tanking multiple people and dealing small damage that kills over time and CW as well due to range.
Stealth rouges are annoying but not game breaking, I manage to counter most of them. I don't feel as tho they need to be nerfed in any way. Stealth is usually the main ability of assassin based classes and the reason most play them cuz of the trickery and massive single target damage. Just be glad this isn't other games where rouges/assassins can stay in stealth forever with out needing to use special skills to keep them that way, and requiring everyone else to buy pots just to spot them for a few seconds.
Lift me up.. Panda@kristingrave - CW - Dragon
Death@healxyou - DC - Dragon
So you're recommending for people to use 3 of their spec points on at will ability they may end up only finding useful during solo'able pve content? I will agree to disagree with you on this also, buddy 'ole pal.
Have to 2nd that. When I finally respecced, I cut Gloaming Cut out of my build altogether. Way too situational to burn 3 points on, IMHO.
My CW won nearly every fight against rogues in 1-59, it is almost impossible for a rogue to touch a well played CW before 60 let alone "win", lol. Also a rogue of any skill level has almost no chance against a half decent GF, and I have many times seen DC's before level cap tanking two-three players.
So decently geared and played toons can beat other poorly geared and played toons?! NOO WAI! So you won every fight against a rogue 1-59. Guess what I won every fight with a CW with my rogue on my first trip through 1-59. So does that enable me to make the claim, "You do not know what you are talking about."?! The beauty of the fact that there's always different class, skill, and gear levels traversing this wonderful experience ladder. I main a CW so I won't argue that it isn't formidable when played well, but there's always kinks in the 'ole armor that can be poked. You got a lvl 20-29 CW on beholder that wants to 1v1 my Cheese Ball, brah? :rolleyes:
If you are PVP only, or always/usually run with a group then getting it is not the most min-max sensible thing to do.
If you run solo, and are not trying to win a race against time and would rather have safety instead, then GC is your best bet. I thought I had made this clear earlier, but I guess some of us didn't quite get it. Is it an absolute necessity? No. You can finish the PVE content without GC. You can also finish the PVE content without DF. Would I also suggest getting DF? Yes.
But hey, different strokes. Some people may not like the longer animation time of GC or whatever. I can understand that. Maybe some rogues don't use stealth that much and prefer just stabbing everything as fast as possible. LOL That actually sounds like fun.
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pyroknight777Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited July 2013
Nice job but Bait and Switch isnt a level 5 move o.o Also,you should add a tip to people that when you think a stealth rogue is "perma-stealthed" near the tower but not capping it,do check near the stairs in Hotenow and near the pillars in Riverscar.Thats where we rogues hide when running out of stealth
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@pyroknight777 in the game ^_^ Don't worry if you see me stalking you...my characters are kind of "new" to social life...I mean how would you think a fire demon-turned hero would react to a girl if all he sees in hell are half-naked devilish women...
Nice job but Bait and Switch isnt a level 5 move o.o Also,you should add a tip to people that when you think a stealth rogue is "perma-stealthed" near the tower but not capping it,do check near the stairs in Hotenow and near the pillars in Riverscar.Thats where we rogues hide when running out of stealth
Ah <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>! You're right it should say level 15 not 5 -- thanks for catching that! Haha, I'm surprised nobody else caught that typo yet.
I'll add your pointers to the FAQ.
Thanks again!
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pyroknight777Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited July 2013
No problem ^_^ Glad I could help!
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@pyroknight777 in the game ^_^ Don't worry if you see me stalking you...my characters are kind of "new" to social life...I mean how would you think a fire demon-turned hero would react to a girl if all he sees in hell are half-naked devilish women...
it is almost impossible for a rogue to touch a well played CW before 60 let alone "win", lol. Also a rogue of any skill level has almost no chance against a half decent GF
I have to disgree with you on that. There are many ways a TR can "touch" and may I dare say "win" against a CW. It requires the use of proper dodges, stealth, ITC, Impact Shot, and CoS. That's not even including the dailies: Lurker's Assault, Shocking Execution, Bloodbath, and Courage Breaker. All of which can either kill, incur immunity against CWs attacks and CC, aid in killing, and reduce damage/movement speed.
Also your claim of any "decent" GF can beat any rogue of any skill level is invalid. I am dead sure there are quite a handful of GFs that can vouch for me when I say that I have completely, without any help, solo'd a 1v1 against a GF while I was using my TR.
All in all, you talk about TRs as if they are always utter trash against a CW and GF. There are many simple ways to prove your claims wrong.
Edit: My TRs name is ThatAsianDude from Dragon Shard. I'm sure some GFs and CWs will vouch for me when I say that I can solo either and win.
This is an excellent guide l0th4ri0! It's not just useful for non-rogues, but it explains how stealth works for new rogues too.
For you others, I just want to let you know that I'm playing a solo stealth rogue (I'm actually using l0th4ri0's build) in PvE, and I have to say it's the most fun class I've played so far. It's also one of the most challenging. Yes, you heard that right.
Anybody who thinks a rogue can beat anything with just two buttons is crazy. Between watching their stealth bar, timing their skills and trying to dodge out of danger, they need to be very good at multi-tasking. A rogue can never be still, if they stop moving, they die. A rogue is the true definition of what action means in action combat.
The first class I played was a Guardian Fighter. Slow, safe and incredibly boring. But a very good choice for somebody new to the game. After playing a 'stand still and hit things' class, I didn't think I'd like the rogue (too much darting and dodging) but it's become my favorite class.
I wish everyone would try playing a rogue. Then you'd see it takes a lot of skill. A rogue must not get hit, if they mess up their timing or don't dodge fast enough, one blow can remove 3/4 of their life (and that's just in PvE!). Stealth is the only thing that keeps us alive and a rogue out of stealth is a very pitiful creature indeed.
x3lade's original guide did not incorporate tene or vorpal enchants.. and I believe his cost estimates put it roughly at around 1.25-1.5mil total to accomplish using bilethorn rank 7 silvery enchants. Not overly difficult to acquire 1.5m with the proper ambition. Here's his link, you can look through his videos of when he didn't have tene and vorpal and see if he's struggling.
Now insert vorpal and tene + 60ft range and steelf.... pop lurkers and pop off a couple 12-17k impact shot crits.. Should make for some rage inducing good times!
As far as 1-59 a properly played rogue never dies and can lay waste to any class 1v1. I know I had a couple 15-20/0 K/D matches on Cheese Ball a few hours ago in the lvl 20-29 bracket. So I wouldn't necessarily put all classes are evenly scaled at 1-59. I will agree that there is less of a gap that is introduced with gear in lvl 60 pvp scene unless you include the availabilty of gloomwrought weapons for the rogue available at 9,19,29,39,etc that have the dps and stats for weapons equal to weapons 10 levels higher. So feasibly using lvl 59 daggers in the 40-49 pvp bracket whereas the other classes equivalent are only available at 21,31,41 etc. (I believe it was designed this way to instill hatred for the rogue class in the infantile states of the game. Get an early start on the h8rade!)
As I said in my previous post, their development has been largely based off of what we players find as unbalanced through continued playing of the game. You say it's not. I say it is. Are they going to nerf enchantments across the board? They could, but that could upset some folks that paid them good money and dissuade others from paying any money to get them. Could they perhaps tweak the stealth mechanic to increase stealth drain when and only when CoS is used while in stealth? They could, but that could upset some folks that rely on ranged damage while remaining untargetable. Who knows!?
We can both throw out all the conjectures we want. I will agree to disagree good sir! Prepare for your suppository though!
If you look at his gear setup he's using both Tene and Vorpals. Those enchants costs more a peice then you said he paid for his whole setup so.
Anybody who thinks a rogue can beat anything with just two buttons is crazy. Between watching their stealth bar, timing their skills and trying to dodge out of danger, they need to be very good at multi-tasking. A rogue can never be still, if they stop moving, they die. A rogue is the true definition of what action means in action combat.
<snipped some>
Slightly off-topic, but I think this is one of the reasons why people get so defensive about their class. Basically every class needs skill to shine. So when there's a whole thread stating you class is just a faceroll.... well, ego's can get bruised.
But I very much agree, if you think a class is OP, roll it, play it, prove it.
Haha, don't worry klixan... we're not getting any more nerfs, and if there was even a tiny chance of it happening it certainly would not be to stealth.
IF (enormous, gigantic, humongous IF) there is a nerf coming in the future, I could imagine that it would be to Cloud of Steel, and would probably be a charge limit... giving it a max of 8 or 10 instead of 12, perhaps... cutting off the very highest damage daggers at the end of the chain to lower the total possible damage output of the skill. It would still serve as a harassment tool, and it would still make most people want to move (which is what it's for), but it would not have as much lethality.
Slightly off-topic, but I think this is one of the reasons why people get so defensive about their class. Basically every class needs skill to shine. So when there's a whole thread stating you class is just a faceroll.... well, ego's can get bruised.
But I very much agree, if you think a class is OP, roll it, play it, prove it.
Yes, this is truth.
But I can understand those threads, in a way. No other class has the psychological aspect to it in PVP as the TR. We are "frustraters". It only makes sense to me that someone would get into a match against a TR (or maybe 2), have a very hard and frustrating time, and then vent on the forums. It seems obvious, really.
Are the threads coming from those emotional and negative places correct? No. But I can understand why they exist. Thus, this thread.
There are still some people, I am sure, that think stealth mode makes a rogue invulnerable to damage. In fact, I guarantee some people still think that. If that were true, then by all means nerf the living <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of it. But... it's not true.
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marlasingersMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 14Arc User
melee TRs are more deadly than long range hit and run TR
Thanks to the OP for a great post, sadly you are always going to have posts like this one above to look forward to. Even some of the polite responses by CW's illustrate how many people have complained without knowing much of anything about the rogues capabilities. I'm all for complaining, but know your enemy for crying out loud. What are you doing complaining about getting owned by a class you didn't even bother to learn about?
I play a GF and a DC, I played a rogue to 12 or so in beta and didn't love it. So I don't have a problem with rogues, but I do understand that this style of rogue is rubbing people the wrong way. Most other "interpretations" have had the rogue (or whatever the class is called) unlimited stealth time, with no possible stealth after the first attack until combat is exited.
So people are ranting about permastealth, and other people are ranting about the complicated process of maintaining this permastealth, when really is about getting repeatedly attacked by a target they can't find. Neverwinter is a hot, hot game, I'm really impressed with a ton of their takes on the MMORPG experience. But in some places they re-invent the wheel for me in a way I didn't need to see it done. That said, I don't need it nerfed, or changed, its not my brainchild. I didn't slave over it for years, I just came here to play it, for free no less. Far be it from me to start telling these people they've gotten years of planning and testing and planning and testing wrong, after I've experienced their labor of love for several weeks.
And in the end, its the same game anyway. As a cloth class its your responsibility to know if and how many stealthers could be around you, and position yourself accordingly. If you're repeatedly getting destroyed by all the rogues you face, independent of gear or skill (your words not mine) then there's only one common denominator there and that's you.
And I agree with one other poster who made some great points, I wouldn't hold my breath for nerfs. This doesn't read like a problem that's going to warrant changing the mechanics of a class over.
Comments
Ah excellent input, I'll add this to the FAQ. Thanks, yerune!
Maybe not in PvP (then again, 'permastealth' also requires a target) but in pve 100% uptime on stealth while fighting is 100% possible with Gloaming Cut.
As mentioned several times, permastealth with GC is in PVE scenarios. How it works is that you can wipe out all the trash mobs in one stealth without having to use your encounter powers to prolong it. As for if I have tried it out -- yes, and I love it for PVE... it stays on my bar after level 39, right next to duelists's flurry. As long as you can one or two-shot enough mobs with GC, then you will be getting enough stealth back to maintain your bar indefinitely. This is not theorycraft, I do this all the time.
EDIT: LOL, ninja'd by yerune
Don't worry, this is my 2nd rogue and I'm well aware of what they are capable of. Thus the reason I call anybody defending the build irrational. Even some of the more renown pvper's admit the two most broken classes currently, are permastealth rogues and GWF.
The fact that you say rogues with this build are somehow "squishier" then any rogue that spec's dps makes me giggle. :rolleyes:
Don't worry though, when the nerf comes. I will not hold you to coming back here to correct all of your previous statements, as the uncomfortably large suppository of rationality melting to your rectums body temperature will be enough to endure all on its own. :cool:
And here is the reason:
They wouldn't by chance happen to be stacked with Vorpals and Tene's?
Ah, allow me to clarify:
Does less damage = not able to defend oneself as easily, more likely to not scare off enemies = more attacks coming one's way = more damage suffered = squishier
Will your AC be the same? Sure, maybe. You can even have close to equal HP... maybe more? But good luck keeping the bad guys off of you... if you harass them enough, the good players are gonna come looking for you, and your bag of tricks consists of stuff that won't actually keep you alive and dangerous at melee. It's a tougher build to play than you might think... people that call it "easy mode" are mistaken.
You'll see soon enough, perhaps.
Assuming you aren't stacking P2W enchants... LOL
For maximum cheesiness you wouldn't use anything but! Any class can use them, but only one can from 60ft in the safety of stealth. If you have kept up with ex3lade's guide he used bilethorn and rank 7 recovery enchants before recently and did just fine in decimating folks. Now he has 5% more stealth and dmg while in stealth from GG armor and has changed his gear/spec for more burst lawlz.
There's no point in arguing with me, we just have a difference of opinion. We can agree to disagree like I have with other irrational folks. When the nerf bat comes a swinging. Duck! :rolleyes:
Yes I forgot that a rogue in stealth attacking from range is obviously the first target rather then the rogue popping on people in melee range... As for I won't see anything because for the most part perma stealth rogues are ignored in any team fights. If you spend your time chasing the guy in stealth while the visible guys are wailing on you. You're doing something wrong imo. And I wouldn't name a cheesy permastealth spec rogue Cheese Ball if I wasn't willing to spend the money for the extra cheesiness.
Does your P2W enchantment gear nullify the arguments you've been making about class balance, and how stealth is supposedly OP?
At least in your one particular case, you will have that "unfair advantage" I alluded to earlier on page 2. By taking the P2W road -- which is your right, and there is nothing wrong with that -- but haven't you effectively removed yourself from the estimation of what is balanced, and/or fair in comparison to most others who will not be packing the gear?
EDIT: By that same token, would you agree that PVP at levels 1-59 is fairly balanced among the classes? If so, what is it that happens at level 60 to throw balance into such disarray? And assuming you agree with me that it is the gear, ask yourself what the devs decide to base design decisions on for balancing... is it the OP builds that are paid for with real money, or do they base class balance decisions in a gear vacuum, assuming all other factors are equal? Knowing this, ask yourself just how likely that nerf bat is to swing now... everything is balanced before 60, and they want the P2W gear to matter enough to make people want to buy it.
Did I just blow your mind?
melee TRs are more deadly than long range hit and run TR
x3lade's original guide did not incorporate tene or vorpal enchants.. and I believe his cost estimates put it roughly at around 1.25-1.5mil total to accomplish using bilethorn rank 7 silvery enchants. Not overly difficult to acquire 1.5m with the proper ambition. Here's his link, you can look through his videos of when he didn't have tene and vorpal and see if he's struggling.
Now insert vorpal and tene + 60ft range and steelf.... pop lurkers and pop off a couple 12-17k impact shot crits.. Should make for some rage inducing good times!
As far as 1-59 a properly played rogue never dies and can lay waste to any class 1v1. I know I had a couple 15-20/0 K/D matches on Cheese Ball a few hours ago in the lvl 20-29 bracket. So I wouldn't necessarily put all classes are evenly scaled at 1-59. I will agree that there is less of a gap that is introduced with gear in lvl 60 pvp scene unless you include the availabilty of gloomwrought weapons for the rogue available at 9,19,29,39,etc that have the dps and stats for weapons equal to weapons 10 levels higher. So feasibly using lvl 59 daggers in the 40-49 pvp bracket whereas the other classes equivalent are only available at 21,31,41 etc. (I believe it was designed this way to instill hatred for the rogue class in the infantile states of the game. Get an early start on the h8rade!)
As I said in my previous post, their development has been largely based off of what we players find as unbalanced through continued playing of the game. You say it's not. I say it is. Are they going to nerf enchantments across the board? They could, but that could upset some folks that paid them good money and dissuade others from paying any money to get them. Could they perhaps tweak the stealth mechanic to increase stealth drain when and only when CoS is used while in stealth? They could, but that could upset some folks that rely on ranged damage while remaining untargetable. Who knows!?
We can both throw out all the conjectures we want. I will agree to disagree good sir! Prepare for your suppository though!
You should also provide some information about your gear and stats in order to be accurate. If I had to make a fairly assumption based upon the fact that TR are supposed to deal damage and, occasionally, provide some additional CC, I'd say that you should go in PvE with PvE settings (i.e. no PvP set bonus even if it's just 1 more second of stealth). Given this assumption and given that your party won't wait for you to kill all the trash, you're pretty soon running out of easy killable (2-3 "shottable" ones) mobs and then the gloaming cut fest is over.
And of course this doesn't take into account the boss fights where gloaming cut is simply unusable due to the usually high boss' mobility/AoE damage and/or slowness/lack of CC immunity.
I'm writing this with a fact in mind: I run with a Ruthless Efficiency build and I know how hard it is just to keep 100% uptime with it (even if it has a 6 second duration).
But you can easily prove me wrong with a simple video. I always happy to see something different from what I've experienced.
This is the very truth about perma stealth.
1. You do not need any special gear or stats, just 3 ranks in it with 5/5 sneaky stabber
2. It works on trash mobs only -- elites/bosses have too many HP (use DF instead)
3. Yes, the animation takes 1 second, during which you will lose 20% of your bar unless you have 5/5 twilight adept for the 6 second max, in which case you lose 17% during that one second of animation. A kill with your feated GC restores 35% of your bar, so, yes -- you will need to one-shot occasionally to make up for only getting 10% for the ones that take two or three hits. Trash mobs with more HP than normal (like in DD's) will screw this up, although you will get a nice extension to stealth regardless.
I did not intend to convey that GC is the end-all be-all of stealth, but it really can be a cheap source of permastealth in select PVE settings. In the normal "soloable" PVE content, it essentially removes trash mobs from the tactical picture, greatly simplifying encounters with mobs. Personally, I believe that GC is a highly underrated skill by many... it hits very hard, and has a short-range zoom-attack feature that glues you to your target if you are within about 20 ft or so. In encounters with mixed groups of trash and elites, it can add a significant amount of stealth and safety when you mix in BnS, Lurker's, etc. I highly recommend for anyone playing a TR in PVE to give it a try as a replacement for SF. It is not going to be a replacement for DF, as there is nothing that even comes close to the usefulness of that bleed damage and 3rd hit barrage of pain.
So you're recommending for people to use 3 of their spec points on at will ability they may end up only finding useful during solo'able pve content? I will agree to disagree with you on this also, buddy 'ole pal.
You do not know what you are talking about.
My CW won nearly every fight against rogues in 1-59, it is almost impossible for a rogue to touch a well played CW before 60 let alone "win", lol. Also a rogue of any skill level has almost no chance against a half decent GF, and I have many times seen DC's before level cap tanking two-three players.
The stealth build pre-60 is actually quite interesting to play for the challenge, and part of the challenge is knowing when to run (whenever you see a GF so not hard). It has a specific playstyle that is suited to backcapping, but loses most of its damage/and cc in exchange for staying in stealth and running fast in stealth.
I would say CW is the most "easy-mode" or "cheese" class until level-cap. It seems that I build up enough action points on my CW to cast an ice-knife (which seems to do more damage than shocking execution from range) in almost the time it takes lashing blade to come off CD. I never felt scared of any class while levelling through pvp- and certainly not rogues- on my CW except for well geared GF's at later levels.
In low level PvP I felt like my cleric is OP lol, just due too tanking multiple people and dealing small damage that kills over time and CW as well due to range.
Stealth rouges are annoying but not game breaking, I manage to counter most of them. I don't feel as tho they need to be nerfed in any way. Stealth is usually the main ability of assassin based classes and the reason most play them cuz of the trickery and massive single target damage. Just be glad this isn't other games where rouges/assassins can stay in stealth forever with out needing to use special skills to keep them that way, and requiring everyone else to buy pots just to spot them for a few seconds.
Lift me up..
Panda@kristingrave - CW - Dragon
Death@healxyou - DC - Dragon
Have to 2nd that. When I finally respecced, I cut Gloaming Cut out of my build altogether. Way too situational to burn 3 points on, IMHO.
So decently geared and played toons can beat other poorly geared and played toons?! NOO WAI! So you won every fight against a rogue 1-59. Guess what I won every fight with a CW with my rogue on my first trip through 1-59. So does that enable me to make the claim, "You do not know what you are talking about."?! The beauty of the fact that there's always different class, skill, and gear levels traversing this wonderful experience ladder. I main a CW so I won't argue that it isn't formidable when played well, but there's always kinks in the 'ole armor that can be poked. You got a lvl 20-29 CW on beholder that wants to 1v1 my Cheese Ball, brah? :rolleyes:
If you are PVP only, or always/usually run with a group then getting it is not the most min-max sensible thing to do.
If you run solo, and are not trying to win a race against time and would rather have safety instead, then GC is your best bet. I thought I had made this clear earlier, but I guess some of us didn't quite get it. Is it an absolute necessity? No. You can finish the PVE content without GC. You can also finish the PVE content without DF. Would I also suggest getting DF? Yes.
But hey, different strokes. Some people may not like the longer animation time of GC or whatever. I can understand that. Maybe some rogues don't use stealth that much and prefer just stabbing everything as fast as possible. LOL That actually sounds like fun.
@pyroknight777 in the game ^_^ Don't worry if you see me stalking you...my characters are kind of "new" to social life...I mean how would you think a fire demon-turned hero would react to a girl if all he sees in hell are half-naked devilish women...
Ah <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>! You're right it should say level 15 not 5 -- thanks for catching that! Haha, I'm surprised nobody else caught that typo yet.
I'll add your pointers to the FAQ.
Thanks again!
@pyroknight777 in the game ^_^ Don't worry if you see me stalking you...my characters are kind of "new" to social life...I mean how would you think a fire demon-turned hero would react to a girl if all he sees in hell are half-naked devilish women...
I have to disgree with you on that. There are many ways a TR can "touch" and may I dare say "win" against a CW. It requires the use of proper dodges, stealth, ITC, Impact Shot, and CoS. That's not even including the dailies: Lurker's Assault, Shocking Execution, Bloodbath, and Courage Breaker. All of which can either kill, incur immunity against CWs attacks and CC, aid in killing, and reduce damage/movement speed.
Also your claim of any "decent" GF can beat any rogue of any skill level is invalid. I am dead sure there are quite a handful of GFs that can vouch for me when I say that I have completely, without any help, solo'd a 1v1 against a GF while I was using my TR.
All in all, you talk about TRs as if they are always utter trash against a CW and GF. There are many simple ways to prove your claims wrong.
Edit: My TRs name is ThatAsianDude from Dragon Shard. I'm sure some GFs and CWs will vouch for me when I say that I can solo either and win.
For you others, I just want to let you know that I'm playing a solo stealth rogue (I'm actually using l0th4ri0's build) in PvE, and I have to say it's the most fun class I've played so far. It's also one of the most challenging. Yes, you heard that right.
Anybody who thinks a rogue can beat anything with just two buttons is crazy. Between watching their stealth bar, timing their skills and trying to dodge out of danger, they need to be very good at multi-tasking. A rogue can never be still, if they stop moving, they die. A rogue is the true definition of what action means in action combat.
The first class I played was a Guardian Fighter. Slow, safe and incredibly boring. But a very good choice for somebody new to the game. After playing a 'stand still and hit things' class, I didn't think I'd like the rogue (too much darting and dodging) but it's become my favorite class.
I wish everyone would try playing a rogue. Then you'd see it takes a lot of skill. A rogue must not get hit, if they mess up their timing or don't dodge fast enough, one blow can remove 3/4 of their life (and that's just in PvE!). Stealth is the only thing that keeps us alive and a rogue out of stealth is a very pitiful creature indeed.
So please don't nerf the rogue.
If you look at his gear setup he's using both Tene and Vorpals. Those enchants costs more a peice then you said he paid for his whole setup so.
Slightly off-topic, but I think this is one of the reasons why people get so defensive about their class. Basically every class needs skill to shine. So when there's a whole thread stating you class is just a faceroll.... well, ego's can get bruised.
But I very much agree, if you think a class is OP, roll it, play it, prove it.
IF (enormous, gigantic, humongous IF) there is a nerf coming in the future, I could imagine that it would be to Cloud of Steel, and would probably be a charge limit... giving it a max of 8 or 10 instead of 12, perhaps... cutting off the very highest damage daggers at the end of the chain to lower the total possible damage output of the skill. It would still serve as a harassment tool, and it would still make most people want to move (which is what it's for), but it would not have as much lethality.
Yes, this is truth.
But I can understand those threads, in a way. No other class has the psychological aspect to it in PVP as the TR. We are "frustraters". It only makes sense to me that someone would get into a match against a TR (or maybe 2), have a very hard and frustrating time, and then vent on the forums. It seems obvious, really.
Are the threads coming from those emotional and negative places correct? No. But I can understand why they exist. Thus, this thread.
There are still some people, I am sure, that think stealth mode makes a rogue invulnerable to damage. In fact, I guarantee some people still think that. If that were true, then by all means nerf the living <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of it. But... it's not true.
Thanks to the OP for a great post, sadly you are always going to have posts like this one above to look forward to. Even some of the polite responses by CW's illustrate how many people have complained without knowing much of anything about the rogues capabilities. I'm all for complaining, but know your enemy for crying out loud. What are you doing complaining about getting owned by a class you didn't even bother to learn about?
I play a GF and a DC, I played a rogue to 12 or so in beta and didn't love it. So I don't have a problem with rogues, but I do understand that this style of rogue is rubbing people the wrong way. Most other "interpretations" have had the rogue (or whatever the class is called) unlimited stealth time, with no possible stealth after the first attack until combat is exited.
So people are ranting about permastealth, and other people are ranting about the complicated process of maintaining this permastealth, when really is about getting repeatedly attacked by a target they can't find. Neverwinter is a hot, hot game, I'm really impressed with a ton of their takes on the MMORPG experience. But in some places they re-invent the wheel for me in a way I didn't need to see it done. That said, I don't need it nerfed, or changed, its not my brainchild. I didn't slave over it for years, I just came here to play it, for free no less. Far be it from me to start telling these people they've gotten years of planning and testing and planning and testing wrong, after I've experienced their labor of love for several weeks.
And in the end, its the same game anyway. As a cloth class its your responsibility to know if and how many stealthers could be around you, and position yourself accordingly. If you're repeatedly getting destroyed by all the rogues you face, independent of gear or skill (your words not mine) then there's only one common denominator there and that's you.
And I agree with one other poster who made some great points, I wouldn't hold my breath for nerfs. This doesn't read like a problem that's going to warrant changing the mechanics of a class over.