Lol I'm not sure how you guys interpret some of the things you interpret but it makes me By your logic if I understand it correctly. Tommy and Billy should continue face rolling due in part to Sally's incompetence and Latisha, well she poe. :rolleyes:
My synopsis in regards to this thread and others like it regarding perma stealth. Sallys and Latishas will forever defend the build since the effectiveness is lost of them and they don't want to be nerfed. Tommy and Billy will snicker around the corner knowing how effective or even sometimes comment on how overly effective it is, to which Sally and Latisha will continue in denial. Then there's transvestites named Georges/Georgias (depending on the daily dress attire) which know the overly effectiveness but still claim ineffectiveness due in part they don't want to be nerfed.
That about covers it. I also believe, contrary to the OP's opinion, some sort of nerf to this build will be addressed in a matter of time and we are all whalecum to our own beliefs. :cool:
yea that's why all the top notch rogues use SE... they don't... Anyone has an ability to finish you off at 30 to 40% life and that's the only time its effective. I get better results from whirlwind of blades than I do SE. SE has a long animation can be dodge, blocked and interrupted and you have to wait the right time to "use", pop it too early and if it hits, you wont kill them.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
yea that's why all the top notch rogues use SE... they don't... Anyone has an ability to finish you off at 30 to 40% life and that's the only time its effective. I get better results from whirlwind of blades than I do SE. SE has a long animation can be dodge, blocked and interrupted and you have to wait the right time to "use", pop it too early and if it hits, you wont kill them.
Yes, the top notch rogues do use SE when it is appropriate but since it can no longer drop people at 75% it's not the "end all be all" and LA's become more common place since you can drop multiple opponents using it. All the problems you stated about SE are L2play issues you must have experienced. SE is far from useless and any non scrub rogue knows this.
You are fighting a losing battle. This happens in every MMO. Most little Harry Potter, Raistlin, etc kids, choose the mage class. Hell even in SWTOR they chose the emperor class. Why? They are under the delusion that it will be the most powerful due to lore.
When this illusion is met with hard reality (balance) they campaign until stealth is nerfed.
You are NEVER going to win the message board war with them. They are legion, they are bad, and they actually think they play a "hard class", and that all non mages are "mental midgets" etc.
Just accept it. Even world class tourney players like Reckful gave up on the stealth classes due to this. They moved to warriors, or casters themselves.
I almost always make a mage alt now, just so I can wreck the trash talking Hogwart's at their own class. Stealth? Whether it is rogue, TR, scoundrel/operative, they all get nerfed, and they all get overnerfed. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Most mmo players just enjoy playing the game.
The ones who are on the forum? Are usually bad, with the occasional good player (some good CW's telling the bad ones they are wrong).
IMO TR's are already weaker then GWF (class I play). What will happen though? TR will get nerfed to the ground. Why? Cus it has happened in every single MMO I have played.
Yes Mages are boring. Yes they are almost always the best or top rating viable (due to forums). Just roll an alt one. Beat them at their own game. Enjoy wrecking people. For the other char? Go with a melee class that can tank. They are always top comp viable due to being needed for instances/pve.
Balance doesn't exist in MMO's past the first few months. Players wreck it.
In pvp most people I face are just terrible. either gear or skill, but pvp is how I make my gold, so I tend to pvp all day long when I have a full day. I can often take two gwf's at a time, as a gwf.
I can also often take two tr's at a time, because they suck.
However, a good gwf, can have long fights with me. a good geared tr, can kill me in one hit, with two different encounters, and a daily.
( I am talking fully decked, perf vorpals and all, and in a real build, not this stealth <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>)
I have been hit over 100k by a tr last week. First time that ever happened, was with the daily that got nerfed, and killed me in one shot.
I have 46.8 def, and 39.6 deflect.
By your post it doesn't seem as if you play on that level yet, but your only a player that may play his classes well, compared to others that say, a mage burns all his encounters, and cant figure out why he cant control anyone anymore, and does other dumb things as that nature.
become decked out, and fight the people from the best pvp guilds out there, that are also decked out. You will see truly how classes are then.
Otherwise, all these arguments are meaningless.
this is spot on, i play Gf and Cw both lvl 60, and them daggers a Tr throws can take my Cw out in seconds before even seeing the Tr is anywhere near, also, only Tr's will say this isnt Op, because they dont want their Op class to be nerfed. Stealtyh should be broken the second an attack is made, plain and simple,
this is spot on, i play Gf and Cw both lvl 60, and them daggers a Tr throws can take my Cw out in seconds before even seeing the Tr is anywhere near, also, only Tr's will say this isnt Op, because they dont want their Op class to be nerfed. Stealtyh should be broken the second an attack is made, plain and simple,
this is spot on, i play Gf and Cw both lvl 60, and them daggers a Tr throws can take my Cw out in seconds before even seeing the Tr is anywhere near, also, only Tr's will say this isnt Op, because they dont want their Op class to be nerfed. Stealtyh should be broken the second an attack is made, plain and simple,
Sorry guys, stealth doesn't work this way in Neverwinter, despite it working this way in other games. That fact that it is different does not make it OP, and this entire thread exists to give you an idea of what to change about your playstyle to adapt to how the reality is in this particular game.
Are you pointing out server side latency allowing abilities that were cast before line of sight was lost to land even though it looks like it shouldn't be possible? CoS or Impact shot works just the same.
No, I am not.
/10char
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
By your post it doesn't seem as if you play on that level yet, but your only a player that may play his classes well, compared to others that say, a mage burns all his encounters, and cant figure out why he cant control anyone anymore, and does other dumb things as that nature.
become decked out, and fight the people from the best pvp guilds out there, that are also decked out. You will see truly how classes are then.
Otherwise, all these arguments are meaningless.
First, I have seen bad players, competent players, good players, and amazing pvpers even in pugs in all mmos/pvp games. It is hardly fair to write off someone's opinion because you think they are mediocre based on one forum post.
Second, although I agree that good pvp pre-mades can bring out the best potential in terms of classes and synergy between classes, I disagree that in this game you need to be "decked-out" to see "truly how classes are". In fact I think pvp before level cap gives the best indication of what the classes are really like. It seems to me that the gearing in the game was tuned for pve, not pvp. All the great pvp experiences I have had in this game are from before level cap- I can't even stand to play after that.
i play Gf and Cw both lvl 60, and them daggers a Tr throws can take my Cw out in seconds before even seeing the Tr is anywhere near, also, only Tr's will say this isnt Op, because they dont want their Op class to be nerfed. Stealtyh should be broken the second an attack is made, plain and simple,
Again, I do not main a rogue, I "main" a CW. At level 60 on my CW I have had the same experience as you, with CoS from stealth easily taking me out even with the full Tier 1 set. But before level 60, CoS from stealth is more like a tickle than a bazooka, so I know that the issue is not with the stealth mechanic per se but with something that happens with gear scaling at level cap.
It may just be that I don't have the right mindset for these gear-based mmo's and should stick with gw2 and mobas, but its a shame because pre-60 the pvp is a lot of fun and pretty balanced.
On the issue of a stealth nerf, is there anything other than pvp at level cap that seems to justify such a nerf? It would be strange to change the whole mechanic just because rogues were hard to handle for some people at level 60 in pvp.
Your video post and its point is lost on me yet again then.
Apparently, and I don't feel like indulging any more than I already have. It seems to me no matter what I point out in whatever video, whiners will whine.
That's fine, but like I said, I don't feel the need to indulge anymore.
edit: ps, kudos to the mods that keep this thread civil.
<Reports go a long way! I just spent an hour or two reading this thread post by post cleaning the heck out of it. It's not something I enjoy doing, I would rather have a report inform me of any personal attacks so they can be handled promptly but we never received reports about this thread. - Ambisinisterr>
On the issue of a stealth nerf, is there anything other than pvp at level cap that seems to justify such a nerf? It would be strange to change the whole mechanic just because rogues were hard to handle for some people at level 60 in pvp.
A very astute observation, yasha... and this is why I have repeatedly said "don't hold your breath for nerfs" and "there is a zero percent chance that stealth will be nerfed". The devs aren't gonna redesign the TR class. This is the way it is. Either adapt to how this game is different from others, or don't.
As for your question, I have seen a post here and there that claims stealth is OP because it enables a rogue to solo the 5-man dungeons and epics. I have soloed DDs quite a few times with my rogue chars, and anyone who has done the same will attest that it is not an easy task. It is the most challenging form of PVE that can be had in this game, and it is at the same time tedious, emotionally draining, time-consuming, and fun. But apparently this "should be impossible" according to some, who are trying their best to justify a nerf that will never come.
And now you compare the dmg on low lvls with the dmg that a full build ( enchnants etc) rogue can do?
Cos is the main dmg source of rogue.A decent ( and im saying decent not good ) player will never get hit by lashing blades , especially a cw.The moment i hit a cw with lb i know he is really bad.Also cw are the best counter on a stealth rogue.You got range,you got cc so basicaly you can ruin the stealth meter in one shot.Im sure that most of you that still crying havent read the whole stealth faq and just came here to cry.You want the core play of a class to get nerfed?This will ruin the game cuz some you chose a class that cant play with.If something needed a little bit of a nerf that would be gwf.no comment about that.Has anyone actually seen a decent gf or gwf?im sure you do.Why you dont complain about that then.They require half the skill of a tr to play and half the effort for taking kills.And about permastealth...its just useless and only used by real amateurs cuz its the easiest way to sneak and steal some kills while you hiting like a mosquito.
Well you are always saying "its not op, adapt your playstyle". But Perma stealth is something differend. You did describe normal stealth most of the time. And normal stealth has windows of vulnerability.
5. What are the downsides to stealth? Does it have any vulnerabilities? YES.
* Remember that during stealth, the meter is constantly ticking down to zero... the most basic way that stealth ends is due to time passing. And after the bar is empty, only waiting -- or the several skills mentioned above -- can refill it.
Perma stealth: Stealth meter is refilled constantly by several skill. You cant wait until the TR will be visible because he will stay invisible as long as he has a target for shadow strike. Even if there is no target, 20+seconds stealthed are possible.
* While in stealth, the stealth bar is vulnerable to attack. Any damage taken by the rogue is taken by the stealth meter as well. When the stealth bar is gone, stealth ends -- similar to the GF block meter. To counteract this, a rogue can slot the Tenacious Concealment class feature to reduce the damage to his stealth meter by up to 90%, thus making himself far less vulnerable to stealth loss than rogues who do not use it.
Most attacks require a target because stunlocks are important in PvP. Useful PvP AoEs are rare. Dailies might be great, but using a daily to hit someone who is using normal "at will" skills sounds not very fair at all.
* It should be noted that Lurker's Assault mode is vulnerable as well, and can be easily cancelled by stuns and other control powers... essentially making it one of the only Daily Powers in the game that can be cancelled by an enemy.
Yea, each class got at least 23423784 AoE stun encounters.
Well - no... stunning someone requires targeting the player which is nearly impossible. Lurkers assault is regenerating stealth bar for 10 seconds. Stunning the player which is on lurkers will result in a invisible guy somewhere on the floor. This effect is really bad after a CW used his daily (the first one, AoE damage+prone). Some stealthed bobs are flying around and its nearly impossible to find them before they are getting up again.
6. How do I defend myself against an invisible opponent in PVP? These guys are chucking knives at me! The most obvious answer is to MOVE. The reason that stealth rogues keep their distance and throw knives is due to the fact that stealth is not more diminished by At-will powers compared to an encounter power, and the Cloud of Steel power allows them to remain at a safer range while still dealing damage.
TR is moving faster. By getting out of his range for a short duration the TRs damage will be lowered slightly, but the TR will be still invisible, you dont know where he is and he will stay stealthed until you are dead. Nobody is able to run away because TR got dodges too and his movement speed is at least 15% higher than yours.
* If a dodge/slide/block/teleport is used, it breaks the chain of knives, and the rogue will have to re-acquire you as a target to continue. The knives only have 12 charges, and regenerate slowly (1 per 3 seconds recharge)... it is more of a softening and harassing tool than anything to kill with, unless the rogue has a very high gearscore and very powerful enchantments. If you are getting hit by the knives, it is important to break the chain as soon as possible, as the first few daggers will do only minor damage that grows and grows as each subsequent dagger in the chain hits. Note that the rogue tossing the knives is rooted to the spot while he is throwing the chain out, and anything that makes him want to move (like a charging GWF, for example!) will interrupt the chain as well.
Well, the TRs damage will be lower. Thats all. You will just be able to wait a little bit longer until you're dead. Nothing else. Doenst sound like a real counter.
* Also, it should be noted that rogues who are in stealth are still very able to get effects such as Mark, Conduit of Ice, etc. applied to them. While the affected rogue is within the player's target reticle's cone, it can be easier to spot the rogue as he will be more than just a dim silhouette.
But the player must be able to detect the TRs position exactly to target him. The fact that a marked TR has a "X" above his head while he is already targeted doesnt help targeting them. The hitpoint bar is much easier to see while the TR is in target. The "X" is only a small damage boost while attacking the TR.
* Be aware that many rogues in PVP will jump around all over the place to confound attempts by their enemies to spot them or target them. Remember that your AoE attacks will hit them regardless of whether or not they are airborne or caught flat-footed.
Well... how many AoE attacks are there?! Clerics in PvP are rare. So there is only the CW. Most other classes got only a few AoEs and maybe 1 AoE is useful in PvP. If you switch to AoE encounters your damage will be much lower. MAybe you will be bale to hit the TR so that he will get out of stealth mode, but your damage will be that low, that your are not able to kill him any longer.
* If you think a rogue is running low on stealth and are trying to hunt him down near the tower, check near the stairs in Hotenow or by the pillars in Riverscar. Those are popular places for a rogue to hide.
Perma stealth TR builds do NOT run out of stealth most time.
Summary: all of your "tactics" which should help vs perma stealth are not helpful. Most tactics just result in staying alive for a few more seconds without having a small chance to kill the TR!
If you want people to stay for the match end even when you're sitting on a 600-10 score and you've decided to be ***-hats and spawn-camp, you need to give them a reason. Punishing them is not the answer. That's just pouring salt-acid into an already bleeding wound.
Again, I do not main a rogue, I "main" a CW. At level 60 on my CW I have had the same experience as you, with CoS from stealth easily taking me out even with the full Tier 1 set. But before level 60, CoS from stealth is more like a tickle than a bazooka, so I know that the issue is not with the stealth mechanic per se but with something that happens with gear scaling at level cap.
It may just be that I don't have the right mindset for these gear-based mmo's and should stick with gw2 and mobas, but its a shame because pre-60 the pvp is a lot of fun and pretty balanced.
I think pre-60 pvp is completely different from post-60. And since at 60 there are no new encounters or feats being introduced, it has to be gear that's causing this.
A TR spamming CoS while using the Lurkers Assault Daily will stay in stealth a long, long while and each hit from stealth has 60% more damage. TR's have the slowest AP generation of all classes, so it's not like they are popping it left and right, like Ice Knife for instance.
And that's the biggest gripe, people get whacked by a TR and think every TR in every situation all the time and anywhere can pull this massive OP power at will, at random and at nausea.
That's simply not true.
I like the analogy with sharks. There only has to be one sighting in order for the beaches to get closed off and the public thinks the sea is swarming with them.
All the arguments used against TR are arguments used against the perceived OPness of other classes too. Every class is considered to be OP by someone and his epeen or another.
I don't think anything needs to be done to stealth as it is. If Cryptic didn't want perma-stealth potential, they wouldn't (or shouldn't) have made 2 stealth enhancing gear sets so easily obtainable with only pvp.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
On the issue of a stealth nerf, is there anything other than pvp at level cap that seems to justify such a nerf? It would be strange to change the whole mechanic just because rogues were hard to handle for some people at level 60 in pvp.
That is a good question. Rogues utilizing stealth can essential bypass the majority of mob aggro. There are some mobs that will still attack you through stealth if you're within melee range, and I haven't done any tests to see if these would still aggro using ranged abilities. I know of at least 1 rogue that has essentially solo'd the dracolich in CN using a stealth build to avoid all direct aggro merely dodging the aoe and attacks directed towards his decoy. Time consuming to say the least but still achieved.
Before changes to FH rogues were utilizing the stealth mechanic to run the entire length of FH to the final boss CF. Essential progressing the entire party to the final sequence before the boss by having them leave entrance and clicking Return to Instance which put them at the most progressed CF of a party member in the instance.
So yes you could say there are legitimate qualms with perma stealth in the PVE world also. The common belief is that they sacrifice a plethora of damage and are therefore abysmal in PVE. Yet the only difference I see from my half orc pve dps executioner build from x3lades human permastealth executioner build is I have 3 more str (3% damage) and 4 dex (4% crit). I believe a few heroic feats like I have 6%dmg on encounter abilities where as he uses the stealth on dodge. So essentially the rest of it is all gear which is interchangeable. So I, myself wouldn't say that taking away 4% crit, 3% dmg would make a rogue abysmal in pve. But that's just my opinion and we are all whalecum to our own.
Summary: all of your "tactics" which should help vs perma stealth are not helpful. Most tactics just result in staying alive for a few more seconds without having a small chance to kill the TR!
Those few seconds are enough to kill any TR.
Your whole summary only states you are content with staying deliberate ignorant. I can't help you with that, neither will a nerf.
masu, I've said it before, and it's getting old... if you are not going to try to learn, then just give up and play a different game. I noticed that you STILL haven't tried starting a thread in the Barracks for getting GF-specific tips on how to counter a permastealth build. You have plenty of time to rant about TRs in other threads, though... to the point of being extremely rude to a GF who had the hapless luck of trying to help you. Thankfully, I noticed your deplorable behavior and asked that GF to post in here, and he did -- adding an excellent post to the already long list of excellent posts here in the FAQ thread. For which, I would like to thank everyone who has participated and added their feedback/experiences/etc.
As for you, masu... I am just about done indulging your rants with any more responses. You are not here to learn, you are here to troll.
Every counter tactics can be avoided by NOT following the plays listed in OP. Paradoxically, OP is proving how stealth is good and made a good guide for TR.
Every counter tactics can be avoided by NOT following the plays listed in OP. Paradoxically, OP is proving how stealth is good and made a good guide for TR.
LOL okay then.
This thread was to educate everybody, and act as a nice place to discuss tactics/strategies and so on. If a TR reads this thread, sees what the GFs have posted as counters, and then devises a neat way to counter the counter, then this thread is working as intended. A multitude of TRs have posted in here and "gave away the game" about stealth. My first post here was a gigantic "F You" to the idea of keeping class secrets secret in order to exploit people's ignorances.
If anyone (TR's included) comes away from this thread with new or better ideas about how things can be done, then I am satisfied with it.
Wise words by some no0bs which are allways crying "L2P!" ... just have a look at my signature.
I have read so many threads that have you in them m8, the above you quoted just proves you really are not prepared to take advice or adapt your playstyle. For you to write the above when there are so many good pieces of advice in the threads is just pure ignorance, and it is quite clear you are just a troll.
I can only thank god that I will hopefully never be teamed with a player such as yourself. I understand that rogues can be annoying but so can DC,GWF,CW,GF if played well. Your main complaint is stealth and there have been stealthed rogues in so many MMO's, that it once again shows your lack of knowledge of MMO's. Maybe you should just stick to pve m8 , as it it quite clear from all the crying posts you have made , that you are just not suited to pvp mainly because you lack the common sense to improve your play.
If I seem harsh I appologies but I am just sick of reading your negative view, not once have you brought anything positive to the threads. it has just been cry cry cry and no matter how many people, GF's included give you a suggestion, your reply is always the same.
I also note you are leveling a rogue even after all the crying about them, which is a good thing as you will then finally be able to see that rogues are not the Gods you think they are and they can be countered, but I doubt wether you would every admit that. If you cannot kill a rogue on your GF m8 with the gearscore you claim, you stand no chance killing anything on your rogue. You are also leveling the perma stealth that you cry so much about. I don't play perma stealth as I like a melee rogue, and I would be giving up a bit much damage to be perma stealth for my liking.
The truth about the GFs which cant understand the perma stealth can be countered:
CW's Some skilled, some not so much.
TR's Some skilled, some not so much.
DC Some skilled, some not so much.
GWF Some skilled, some not so much.
GF's Some skilled, some not so much, in the case of "Masu84" not so much!
Thank you for these words, they fit the situation perfectly.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
While masu is a bit overzealous in his responses, from what I have read he hasn't said anything far fetched. While GF's, GWF's, and TR's are the 3 best equipped to handle this build (in the sense of staying in the fight and trying to find/break their stealth), it is not unheard of to encounter a decently geared and well played perma stealth rogue that knows how to engage each individual class. Avoiding their aoe and detection with the knowledge of range and what abilities are available and in common usage for each class/classes it engages.
Difference of opinions is all. Some of you have the polar opposite opinion on the matter but the same stubborn mindset in ones own beliefs are correct. There's no need to become insulting or bring insulting analogies in regards to either side just because the other side won't agree with you. Be the bigger forum folk, but not to big. Obesity is considered a disease now. :rolleyes:
While masu is a bit overzealous in his responses, from what I have read he hasn't said anything far fetched. While GF's, GWF's, and TR's are the 3 best equipped to handle this build (in the sense of staying in the fight and trying to find/break their stealth), it is not unheard of to encounter a decently geared and well played perma stealth rogue that knows how to engage each individual class. Avoiding their aoe and detection with the knowledge of range and what abilities are available and in common usage for each class/classes it engages.
Difference of opinions is all. Some of you have the polar opposite opinion on the matter but the same stubborn mindset in ones own beliefs are correct. There's no need to become insulting or bring insulting analogies in regards to either side just because the other side won't agree with you. Be the bigger forum folk, but not to big. Obesity is considered a disease now. :rolleyes:
Gribby, don't even go there.
"Far-fetched" is putting it mildly, and if certain forum posters are to be believed, then a permastealth rogue is completely unable to be countered, and this PVP immortality can easily be achieved with little or no gear or player skill. After all, "CoS kills everyone on the whole team and there's nothing anyone can do about it!" (to paraphrase a certain person)
Can you find a really good permastealth player? Sure can. Some of them even make videos for youtube that anyone can watch. There are also really good PVPers that play other classes that can troll matches just as hard or even harder while being less vulnerable to damage. I particularly enjoy watching videos of well-played CWs who do not fold under pressure and can really bring it. These players are able to take down TRs and pretty much anybody if they get a good field position.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
"Far-fetched" is putting it mildly, and if certain forum posters are to be believed, then a permastealth rogue is completely unable to be countered, and this PVP immortality can easily be achieved with little or no gear or player skill. After all, "CoS kills everyone on the whole team and there's nothing anyone can do about it!" (to paraphrase a certain person)
Can you find a really good permastealth player? Sure can. Some of them even make videos for youtube that anyone can watch. There are also really good PVPers that play other classes that can troll matches just as hard or even harder while being less vulnerable to damage. I particularly enjoy watching videos of well-played CWs who do not fold under pressure and can really bring it. These players are able to take down TRs and pretty much anybody if they get a good field position.
I can only manage about 2 solo queue matches of face rolling pugs on my CW or TR for the daily before the pvp becomes unenjoyable. I do find encounters with perma stealth rogues on my CW a bit of a challenge and I survive the majority of them merely by kiting. The ones I don't survive are usually due to the rogue becoming too frustrated in chasing and decides to use SE or he gets help.
But that doesn't change the fact that I am required in the encounter to either
A.) Go towards the damage eating it or dodging it in order to get in range of seeing him through stealth or use pbaoe (which by slotting diminish a cw's contribution to other engagements in the match) to knock him out of stealth but inherently moving towards a melee dps as a squishy caster and using stamina to avoid its ranged damage without any guarantee of achieving either goal but guaranteed damage eaten and possible death.
B.) Kite away to take less damage to make him give chase or not, and to possibly disrupt his stealth rotation but inherently giving up on any battle over the capture point and running from a enemy that could have already peeled off 5 seconds ago and is already killing its next target.
C.) I have a large aoe daily available to which any intelligent rogue can merely dodge out of. Now see options A or B with a wasted daily.
The build tips the scales too far in its favor. Plain and simple.
It is not far fetched that a well played rogue with this build can feasibly win the majority, if not all of its encounters with individual and sometimes multiple opponents. Just because some can't, doesn't negate the fact others can.
Can you find a really good permastealth player? Sure can. Some of them even make videos for youtube that anyone can watch. There are also really good PVPers that play other classes that can troll matches just as hard or even harder while being less vulnerable to damage. I particularly enjoy watching videos of well-played CWs who do not fold under pressure and can really bring it. These players are able to take down TRs and pretty much anybody if they get a good field position.
The biggest issue I find with videos is that the person is playing different players and you can bet people are only going to make youtube vids of their "highlights" and not the times they are wtf pwnd. So its not really representative of the classes.
That said I think pvp IS surprisingly balanced. Similar gear players with equal skill there really arent blatant OP-ness, some slight OPness but not blatantly stupid.
That said, should we retune the classes? I think so. Right now GWFs/TRs are at the top of the "food chain" so to speak followed closely by GFs. So we can either buff the other classes, or nerf the OPness...
TLDR: Are TRs OP? Yes. Are other classes? Yes as well... Should we fix that? Yes.
I think ayroux has a point about the videos. Nobody posts vids of themselves getting pwned repeatedly... even though I think that would be hilarious if somebody did. Can you imagine the troll parade of insults on the youtube comments if it got some exposure? LOL
But yeah, ayroux... a re-tune would make things more fair -- it's just that the tune needed is in endgame enchants, some of which are still bugged. And let's not forget that the devs have a vested interest in maintaining expensive OP enchants: if there is a real advantage to getting these items, then people are more likely to shell out a few bucks to get an edge or at least blunt the edge that the other players have.
It's a delicate line the devs have to tread... if the enchants are too far over the top, then they lose playerbase that acts as the victims for the geared folks... and if the enchants aren't worth the money, then nobody goes out of their way to buy them. I think the devs are still trying to find that balance between OP too little and too much, and the fact that some of the items are still bugged is actually good for them, because they can hide their balance changes behind the veneer of "bugfixing" without too much grumbling from the folks who paid into them.
I think ayroux has a point about the videos. Nobody posts vids of themselves getting pwned repeatedly... even though I think that would be hilarious if somebody did. Can you imagine the troll parade of insults on the youtube comments if it got some exposure? LOL
But yeah, ayroux... a re-tune would make things more fair -- it's just that the tune needed is in endgame enchants, some of which are still bugged. And let's not forget that the devs have a vested interest in maintaining expensive OP enchants: if there is a real advantage to getting these items, then people are more likely to shell out a few bucks to get an edge or at least blunt the edge that the other players have.
It's a delicate line the devs have to tread... if the enchants are too far over the top, then they lose playerbase that acts as the victims for the geared folks... and if the enchants aren't worth the money, then nobody goes out of their way to buy them. I think the devs are still trying to find that balance between OP too little and too much, and the fact that some of the items are still bugged is actually good for them, because they can hide their balance changes behind the veneer of "bugfixing" without too much grumbling from the folks who paid into them.
Just on that point about needing the enchants/etc to turn a profit: Dragons Nest is also a f2p mmo and has both a gear-based and non-gear based bg system and is still able to remain afloat. This makes me question whether NW really has to rely on people paying for enchants in BGs to make money.
Just on that point about needing the enchants/etc to turn a profit: Dragons Nest is also a f2p mmo and has both a gear-based and non-gear based bg system and is still able to remain afloat. This makes me question whether NW really has to rely on people paying for enchants in BGs to make money.
Well I'm not going to claim some special insider knowledge about Cryptic or MMO financing in general, but I can tell you that the F2P/microtransaction business model treats more $$$ as = better. LOL
Not trying to be a smartass or anything.
I think it's not a question of "need" so much as "want". Cryptic wants to make big bucks off of this... they are not here to be faithful to D&D or make a game that will last for 20 years. I'm sure they will take what steps they need to, in order to keep it going for a while, but this is money-making time for them. The game is still fresh to the general market... it's still "young", so to speak.
Comments
My synopsis in regards to this thread and others like it regarding perma stealth. Sallys and Latishas will forever defend the build since the effectiveness is lost of them and they don't want to be nerfed. Tommy and Billy will snicker around the corner knowing how effective or even sometimes comment on how overly effective it is, to which Sally and Latisha will continue in denial. Then there's transvestites named Georges/Georgias (depending on the daily dress attire) which know the overly effectiveness but still claim ineffectiveness due in part they don't want to be nerfed.
That about covers it. I also believe, contrary to the OP's opinion, some sort of nerf to this build will be addressed in a matter of time and we are all whalecum to our own beliefs. :cool:
Yes, the top notch rogues do use SE when it is appropriate but since it can no longer drop people at 75% it's not the "end all be all" and LA's become more common place since you can drop multiple opponents using it. All the problems you stated about SE are L2play issues you must have experienced. SE is far from useless and any non scrub rogue knows this.
In pvp most people I face are just terrible. either gear or skill, but pvp is how I make my gold, so I tend to pvp all day long when I have a full day. I can often take two gwf's at a time, as a gwf.
I can also often take two tr's at a time, because they suck.
However, a good gwf, can have long fights with me. a good geared tr, can kill me in one hit, with two different encounters, and a daily.
( I am talking fully decked, perf vorpals and all, and in a real build, not this stealth <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>)
I have been hit over 100k by a tr last week. First time that ever happened, was with the daily that got nerfed, and killed me in one shot.
I have 46.8 def, and 39.6 deflect.
By your post it doesn't seem as if you play on that level yet, but your only a player that may play his classes well, compared to others that say, a mage burns all his encounters, and cant figure out why he cant control anyone anymore, and does other dumb things as that nature.
become decked out, and fight the people from the best pvp guilds out there, that are also decked out. You will see truly how classes are then.
Otherwise, all these arguments are meaningless.
true .....
Sorry guys, stealth doesn't work this way in Neverwinter, despite it working this way in other games. That fact that it is different does not make it OP, and this entire thread exists to give you an idea of what to change about your playstyle to adapt to how the reality is in this particular game.
No, I am not.
/10char
Your video post and its point is lost on me yet again then.
First, I have seen bad players, competent players, good players, and amazing pvpers even in pugs in all mmos/pvp games. It is hardly fair to write off someone's opinion because you think they are mediocre based on one forum post.
Second, although I agree that good pvp pre-mades can bring out the best potential in terms of classes and synergy between classes, I disagree that in this game you need to be "decked-out" to see "truly how classes are". In fact I think pvp before level cap gives the best indication of what the classes are really like. It seems to me that the gearing in the game was tuned for pve, not pvp. All the great pvp experiences I have had in this game are from before level cap- I can't even stand to play after that.
Again, I do not main a rogue, I "main" a CW. At level 60 on my CW I have had the same experience as you, with CoS from stealth easily taking me out even with the full Tier 1 set. But before level 60, CoS from stealth is more like a tickle than a bazooka, so I know that the issue is not with the stealth mechanic per se but with something that happens with gear scaling at level cap.
It may just be that I don't have the right mindset for these gear-based mmo's and should stick with gw2 and mobas, but its a shame because pre-60 the pvp is a lot of fun and pretty balanced.
On the issue of a stealth nerf, is there anything other than pvp at level cap that seems to justify such a nerf? It would be strange to change the whole mechanic just because rogues were hard to handle for some people at level 60 in pvp.
Apparently, and I don't feel like indulging any more than I already have. It seems to me no matter what I point out in whatever video, whiners will whine.
That's fine, but like I said, I don't feel the need to indulge anymore.
edit: ps, kudos to the mods that keep this thread civil.
<Reports go a long way! I just spent an hour or two reading this thread post by post cleaning the heck out of it. It's not something I enjoy doing, I would rather have a report inform me of any personal attacks so they can be handled promptly but we never received reports about this thread. - Ambisinisterr>
A very astute observation, yasha... and this is why I have repeatedly said "don't hold your breath for nerfs" and "there is a zero percent chance that stealth will be nerfed". The devs aren't gonna redesign the TR class. This is the way it is. Either adapt to how this game is different from others, or don't.
As for your question, I have seen a post here and there that claims stealth is OP because it enables a rogue to solo the 5-man dungeons and epics. I have soloed DDs quite a few times with my rogue chars, and anyone who has done the same will attest that it is not an easy task. It is the most challenging form of PVE that can be had in this game, and it is at the same time tedious, emotionally draining, time-consuming, and fun. But apparently this "should be impossible" according to some, who are trying their best to justify a nerf that will never come.
Cos is the main dmg source of rogue.A decent ( and im saying decent not good ) player will never get hit by lashing blades , especially a cw.The moment i hit a cw with lb i know he is really bad.Also cw are the best counter on a stealth rogue.You got range,you got cc so basicaly you can ruin the stealth meter in one shot.Im sure that most of you that still crying havent read the whole stealth faq and just came here to cry.You want the core play of a class to get nerfed?This will ruin the game cuz some you chose a class that cant play with.If something needed a little bit of a nerf that would be gwf.no comment about that.Has anyone actually seen a decent gf or gwf?im sure you do.Why you dont complain about that then.They require half the skill of a tr to play and half the effort for taking kills.And about permastealth...its just useless and only used by real amateurs cuz its the easiest way to sneak and steal some kills while you hiting like a mosquito.
Join the first neverwinter giveaway
Perma stealth: Stealth meter is refilled constantly by several skill. You cant wait until the TR will be visible because he will stay invisible as long as he has a target for shadow strike. Even if there is no target, 20+seconds stealthed are possible.
Most attacks require a target because stunlocks are important in PvP. Useful PvP AoEs are rare. Dailies might be great, but using a daily to hit someone who is using normal "at will" skills sounds not very fair at all.
Yea, each class got at least 23423784 AoE stun encounters.
Well - no... stunning someone requires targeting the player which is nearly impossible. Lurkers assault is regenerating stealth bar for 10 seconds. Stunning the player which is on lurkers will result in a invisible guy somewhere on the floor. This effect is really bad after a CW used his daily (the first one, AoE damage+prone). Some stealthed bobs are flying around and its nearly impossible to find them before they are getting up again.
TR is moving faster. By getting out of his range for a short duration the TRs damage will be lowered slightly, but the TR will be still invisible, you dont know where he is and he will stay stealthed until you are dead. Nobody is able to run away because TR got dodges too and his movement speed is at least 15% higher than yours.
Well, the TRs damage will be lower. Thats all. You will just be able to wait a little bit longer until you're dead. Nothing else. Doenst sound like a real counter.
But the player must be able to detect the TRs position exactly to target him. The fact that a marked TR has a "X" above his head while he is already targeted doesnt help targeting them. The hitpoint bar is much easier to see while the TR is in target. The "X" is only a small damage boost while attacking the TR.
Well... how many AoE attacks are there?! Clerics in PvP are rare. So there is only the CW. Most other classes got only a few AoEs and maybe 1 AoE is useful in PvP. If you switch to AoE encounters your damage will be much lower. MAybe you will be bale to hit the TR so that he will get out of stealth mode, but your damage will be that low, that your are not able to kill him any longer.
Perma stealth TR builds do NOT run out of stealth most time.
Summary: all of your "tactics" which should help vs perma stealth are not helpful. Most tactics just result in staying alive for a few more seconds without having a small chance to kill the TR!
And here is the reason:
I think pre-60 pvp is completely different from post-60. And since at 60 there are no new encounters or feats being introduced, it has to be gear that's causing this.
A TR spamming CoS while using the Lurkers Assault Daily will stay in stealth a long, long while and each hit from stealth has 60% more damage. TR's have the slowest AP generation of all classes, so it's not like they are popping it left and right, like Ice Knife for instance.
And that's the biggest gripe, people get whacked by a TR and think every TR in every situation all the time and anywhere can pull this massive OP power at will, at random and at nausea.
That's simply not true.
I like the analogy with sharks. There only has to be one sighting in order for the beaches to get closed off and the public thinks the sea is swarming with them.
All the arguments used against TR are arguments used against the perceived OPness of other classes too. Every class is considered to be OP by someone and his epeen or another.
I don't think anything needs to be done to stealth as it is. If Cryptic didn't want perma-stealth potential, they wouldn't (or shouldn't) have made 2 stealth enhancing gear sets so easily obtainable with only pvp.
That is a good question. Rogues utilizing stealth can essential bypass the majority of mob aggro. There are some mobs that will still attack you through stealth if you're within melee range, and I haven't done any tests to see if these would still aggro using ranged abilities. I know of at least 1 rogue that has essentially solo'd the dracolich in CN using a stealth build to avoid all direct aggro merely dodging the aoe and attacks directed towards his decoy. Time consuming to say the least but still achieved.
Before changes to FH rogues were utilizing the stealth mechanic to run the entire length of FH to the final boss CF. Essential progressing the entire party to the final sequence before the boss by having them leave entrance and clicking Return to Instance which put them at the most progressed CF of a party member in the instance.
So yes you could say there are legitimate qualms with perma stealth in the PVE world also. The common belief is that they sacrifice a plethora of damage and are therefore abysmal in PVE. Yet the only difference I see from my half orc pve dps executioner build from x3lades human permastealth executioner build is I have 3 more str (3% damage) and 4 dex (4% crit). I believe a few heroic feats like I have 6%dmg on encounter abilities where as he uses the stealth on dodge. So essentially the rest of it is all gear which is interchangeable. So I, myself wouldn't say that taking away 4% crit, 3% dmg would make a rogue abysmal in pve. But that's just my opinion and we are all whalecum to our own.
Those few seconds are enough to kill any TR.
Your whole summary only states you are content with staying deliberate ignorant. I can't help you with that, neither will a nerf.
As for you, masu... I am just about done indulging your rants with any more responses. You are not here to learn, you are here to troll.
EDIT: LOL, ninja'd by yerune LMAO
LOL okay then.
This thread was to educate everybody, and act as a nice place to discuss tactics/strategies and so on. If a TR reads this thread, sees what the GFs have posted as counters, and then devises a neat way to counter the counter, then this thread is working as intended. A multitude of TRs have posted in here and "gave away the game" about stealth. My first post here was a gigantic "F You" to the idea of keeping class secrets secret in order to exploit people's ignorances.
If anyone (TR's included) comes away from this thread with new or better ideas about how things can be done, then I am satisfied with it.
I have read so many threads that have you in them m8, the above you quoted just proves you really are not prepared to take advice or adapt your playstyle. For you to write the above when there are so many good pieces of advice in the threads is just pure ignorance, and it is quite clear you are just a troll.
I can only thank god that I will hopefully never be teamed with a player such as yourself. I understand that rogues can be annoying but so can DC,GWF,CW,GF if played well. Your main complaint is stealth and there have been stealthed rogues in so many MMO's, that it once again shows your lack of knowledge of MMO's. Maybe you should just stick to pve m8 , as it it quite clear from all the crying posts you have made , that you are just not suited to pvp mainly because you lack the common sense to improve your play.
If I seem harsh I appologies but I am just sick of reading your negative view, not once have you brought anything positive to the threads. it has just been cry cry cry and no matter how many people, GF's included give you a suggestion, your reply is always the same.
I also note you are leveling a rogue even after all the crying about them, which is a good thing as you will then finally be able to see that rogues are not the Gods you think they are and they can be countered, but I doubt wether you would every admit that. If you cannot kill a rogue on your GF m8 with the gearscore you claim, you stand no chance killing anything on your rogue. You are also leveling the perma stealth that you cry so much about. I don't play perma stealth as I like a melee rogue, and I would be giving up a bit much damage to be perma stealth for my liking.
The truth about the GFs which cant understand the perma stealth can be countered:
CW's Some skilled, some not so much.
TR's Some skilled, some not so much.
DC Some skilled, some not so much.
GWF Some skilled, some not so much.
GF's Some skilled, some not so much, in the case of "Masu84" not so much!
Thank you for these words, they fit the situation perfectly.
Difference of opinions is all. Some of you have the polar opposite opinion on the matter but the same stubborn mindset in ones own beliefs are correct. There's no need to become insulting or bring insulting analogies in regards to either side just because the other side won't agree with you. Be the bigger forum folk, but not to big. Obesity is considered a disease now. :rolleyes:
Gribby, don't even go there.
"Far-fetched" is putting it mildly, and if certain forum posters are to be believed, then a permastealth rogue is completely unable to be countered, and this PVP immortality can easily be achieved with little or no gear or player skill. After all, "CoS kills everyone on the whole team and there's nothing anyone can do about it!" (to paraphrase a certain person)
Can you find a really good permastealth player? Sure can. Some of them even make videos for youtube that anyone can watch. There are also really good PVPers that play other classes that can troll matches just as hard or even harder while being less vulnerable to damage. I particularly enjoy watching videos of well-played CWs who do not fold under pressure and can really bring it. These players are able to take down TRs and pretty much anybody if they get a good field position.
I can only manage about 2 solo queue matches of face rolling pugs on my CW or TR for the daily before the pvp becomes unenjoyable. I do find encounters with perma stealth rogues on my CW a bit of a challenge and I survive the majority of them merely by kiting. The ones I don't survive are usually due to the rogue becoming too frustrated in chasing and decides to use SE or he gets help.
But that doesn't change the fact that I am required in the encounter to either
A.) Go towards the damage eating it or dodging it in order to get in range of seeing him through stealth or use pbaoe (which by slotting diminish a cw's contribution to other engagements in the match) to knock him out of stealth but inherently moving towards a melee dps as a squishy caster and using stamina to avoid its ranged damage without any guarantee of achieving either goal but guaranteed damage eaten and possible death.
B.) Kite away to take less damage to make him give chase or not, and to possibly disrupt his stealth rotation but inherently giving up on any battle over the capture point and running from a enemy that could have already peeled off 5 seconds ago and is already killing its next target.
C.) I have a large aoe daily available to which any intelligent rogue can merely dodge out of. Now see options A or B with a wasted daily.
The build tips the scales too far in its favor. Plain and simple.
It is not far fetched that a well played rogue with this build can feasibly win the majority, if not all of its encounters with individual and sometimes multiple opponents. Just because some can't, doesn't negate the fact others can.
Correct... and the converse is also true: Just because some can't defeat rogues doesn't negate the fact that others can.
The biggest issue I find with videos is that the person is playing different players and you can bet people are only going to make youtube vids of their "highlights" and not the times they are wtf pwnd. So its not really representative of the classes.
That said I think pvp IS surprisingly balanced. Similar gear players with equal skill there really arent blatant OP-ness, some slight OPness but not blatantly stupid.
That said, should we retune the classes? I think so. Right now GWFs/TRs are at the top of the "food chain" so to speak followed closely by GFs. So we can either buff the other classes, or nerf the OPness...
TLDR: Are TRs OP? Yes. Are other classes? Yes as well... Should we fix that? Yes.
If every class is OP, wouldn't that make the game balanced?
But yeah, ayroux... a re-tune would make things more fair -- it's just that the tune needed is in endgame enchants, some of which are still bugged. And let's not forget that the devs have a vested interest in maintaining expensive OP enchants: if there is a real advantage to getting these items, then people are more likely to shell out a few bucks to get an edge or at least blunt the edge that the other players have.
It's a delicate line the devs have to tread... if the enchants are too far over the top, then they lose playerbase that acts as the victims for the geared folks... and if the enchants aren't worth the money, then nobody goes out of their way to buy them. I think the devs are still trying to find that balance between OP too little and too much, and the fact that some of the items are still bugged is actually good for them, because they can hide their balance changes behind the veneer of "bugfixing" without too much grumbling from the folks who paid into them.
Just on that point about needing the enchants/etc to turn a profit: Dragons Nest is also a f2p mmo and has both a gear-based and non-gear based bg system and is still able to remain afloat. This makes me question whether NW really has to rely on people paying for enchants in BGs to make money.
Well I'm not going to claim some special insider knowledge about Cryptic or MMO financing in general, but I can tell you that the F2P/microtransaction business model treats more $$$ as = better. LOL
Not trying to be a smartass or anything.
I think it's not a question of "need" so much as "want". Cryptic wants to make big bucks off of this... they are not here to be faithful to D&D or make a game that will last for 20 years. I'm sure they will take what steps they need to, in order to keep it going for a while, but this is money-making time for them. The game is still fresh to the general market... it's still "young", so to speak.