And I agree with one other poster who made some great points, I wouldn't hold my breath for nerfs. This doesn't read like a problem that's going to warrant changing the mechanics of a class over.
Great post, marla... thank you.
Haha that was me (the thread originator) who said "don't hold your breath for nerfs."
I totally agree with that last sentence above I quoted from you, but there are going to be some frustrated people that are going to disagree with us (some of them quite vehemently). If they have poured money into the game, then their sense of entitlement is going to be even larger, as they are "paying customers". Which, again, I can totally understand -- while not necessarily agreeing with their point of view, nor giving their sense of entitlement any undue weight that it does not deserve.
I think one of the major problems with all the furor on the forums about this issue is not just from the people who are overly pissed-off, but also the people who respond to this angst with "L2P" and a personal insult. IMO that isn't helping anything or anybody at all... but there is little that can be done about that.
My sincere wish is for people who start "nerf rogue" threads to be calmly/politely directed to this thread WITHOUT any name-calling or insults. I understand that the chances of this happening much, if at all, are probably very close to zero. LOL
It is designed this way for a reason. It prevents everyone from all rolling the same class.
The only people that don't understand that or refuse to accept it, are...
Ego maniac, facetanking ranged classes, whom don't want a counter, and think mages should be all powerful, due to some crappy book they read.
All new MMO forums look the same.
Cloth classes crying about rogue classes and threatening to quit.
The game maker telling them there is no balance problem.
Mages finally getting their way and rogue class is overnerfed.
Rogues play warriors (because ranged is boring as hell). Rogues kick the mages butt's still, even though cloth counters warrior.
Mages crying about warriors.
Warriors overnerfed.
People start to leave the MMO, except the pve people.
Repeats in next game.
No I don't bother playing stealth anymore in MMO's. You are never going to beat the crying mages. They are legion. Just play a mage and kick the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font><font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of them. Then they can use lag as an excuse.
You are pretty much wrong with the order relating to Neverwinter. The list of easykills is as follows:
Wizards: Can easykill Clerics and Rogues if they get the jump on them.
Rogues: Can easykill Clerics and Wizards if they get the jump on them.
Clerics: Can kill anyone they massively overgear, otherwise they are boned and are usually a prime target.
Guardian Fighters: Can easykill anyone other than GWF.
Great Weapon Fighters: Can easykill anyone unless you are massively undergeared or braindead.
Also if a rogue is permastealth build, run towards them, they aren't invincible and you can see stealthers when close. Damage won't break it, but you can certainly still kill them. They want you to run away or stay ranged, because then you can't target them.
So people are ranting about permastealth, and other people are ranting about the complicated process of maintaining this permastealth, when really is about getting repeatedly attacked by a target they can't find.
^
This.
I think the number one frustration of any player is losing control and not being able to get out of a bad spot. If you look at pvp/pve videos, the moment the player loses control on his toon, the frantic keysmashing will begin.
In pvp(videos) TR's are like sharks, they could be potentially anywhere, which translates to 'they are everywhere'. I mean, it only takes one sharksighting to close miles and miles of beach. It's a natural reaction to an invisible threat.
But enough with the Discovery Channel poppsychobabble, the biggest gripe against TR's is insane ranged killing power while being stealthed. People want stealth nerfed because, as you say, they don't find their attacker.
This is an excellent guide l0th4ri0! It's not just useful for non-rogues, but it explains how stealth works for new rogues too.
For you others, I just want to let you know that I'm playing a solo stealth rogue (I'm actually using l0th4ri0's build) in PvE, and I have to say it's the most fun class I've played so far. It's also one of the most challenging. Yes, you heard that right.
Anybody who thinks a rogue can beat anything with just two buttons is crazy. Between watching their stealth bar, timing their skills and trying to dodge out of danger, they need to be very good at multi-tasking. A rogue can never be still, if they stop moving, they die. A rogue is the true definition of what action means in action combat.
I wish everyone would try playing a rogue. Then you'd see it takes a lot of skill. A rogue must not get hit, if they mess up their timing or don't dodge fast enough, one blow can remove 3/4 of their life (and that's just in PvE!). Stealth is the only thing that keeps us alive and a rogue out of stealth is a very pitiful creature indeed.
Beautifully said, that is exactly how I felt when I leveled a stealth based rogue.
It is so frustrating reading all these whining threads about rogues, especially when the crying ends with "if you disagree with my opinion then you are irrational".
I have been on the receiving end of a stealthed CoS at level cap- and killed by it, or a lashing blade that nearly one shots me. But I know from 100s of games before level cap where I never had such an experience that the issue is not class balance but the way gear scales at level cap with enchants etc.
For nearly all of the game, including pre-level 60 pvp, the play experience is as you say, challenging and fun.
I come from cox pvp. Biggest advantages: 1. Numbers; 2. Initiative; 3. Gear; 4. Skill (3 & 4 may be interchanged here, as in cox you could run and gun; nonetheless, gear is a distinct advantage).
I think the problem here is stealth gives #2. I understand the outcry. Stalkers (the stealth class) were initially OP and later nerfed.
However, I have pvped here solely on my CW (I have a TR, also), and the problem is NOT TR stealth ,nor TR CoS, it is initiative.
A rogue dictates when and where she strikes. Of course, they will use this to their advantage. It is their purpose.
As a CW, I use my range to my advantage. I will attempt to destroy any GF/GWF/TR from 80 feet given the opportunity. It is MY purpose as a CW.
Do I enjoy being defeated by a rogue? Of course not. Usually, I am already down on health, making me a prime target. Would I pass on targeting a near-dead target? No. Of course I wouldn't.
My point: people object to losing initiative, the stealth and CoS are really excuses.
I fear you may have left out some misconceptions in your initial premise. Consider this.
Its not just rogues out there
The rogue is on a team and when the GF has a choice of the GWF beating on them or the invisible rogue delivering endless beestings from beyond. The GF will certainly react to the threat he or she can see. That means the rogue has all the maneuvering time, the fighting time and the recovery time to do damage. And not all of it has to be from stealth. The problem for the targeted class is that they cannot maneuver for defense, especially when engaged. They just have to take it. The rogue just become a massive damage buff for other classes that can't be canceled or countered. Observe the following.
notice how the rogue is extremely effective when solo but also is absolutely ignored when the target is engaged. Note also how taking damage does nothing to mitigate their ability to come and go in stealth and AoE templates are avoided with laughable ease.
Moving won’t save you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yng4nZBdMhM
Here we see a rogue demolishing an entire party. Notice how the significant damage is always done from stealth where they cannot be seen and can evade the target easily. Once the target is low enough in health to pose no serious risk the rogue can exit stealth and finish them off easily. Note how the targets are moving the whole time with the possible exception of the poor schlub who gets helped up by his buddy only to get murdered instantly again by the rogue who is standing right beside them, stealthed, waiting to the fellow to get back up.
Stealth saves
It is expected that you will die in PVP but stealth will save you. It’s not a magic iwin button but all it takes is a corner and stealth will turn a mortal situation right back into a rogue dominant situation. So if the opposing team does not outright kill you, you can still thin their herd with ease. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1cEyXk0PA
So if the argument is that stealth is fair and balanced, I posit that, empirically, stealth offers opportunities to do combat damage unopposed. Can anyone else do that?
The effects of stealth damage cannot be effectively countered with maneuvering because the stealthy aggressor can simply reposition even past other enemies or among other enemy targets to deliver damage unopposed. Can other classes do that?
Hard Countering the damage (block, Unstoppable, massive healing, etc) just lets the rogue slip away to another softer target without either target knowing until several seconds of damage have passed even if the targets are far apart. If that GS is too hard a target I could just go hunt down the CW and neither would know that I was doing that until it was too late. Can other classes do that?
Due to the psychology of combat, stealth turns rogues into damage buffs for other combatants for which there is no counter.
You could argue that all the above visual evidence is biased, that the opposition is just bad and anyway what rogue would put up a vid of him or herself getting owned. But can it be that everyone else is really bad? Can it be that so many people are suddenly so bad at this particular game and all referencing stealth coincidentally?
The aforementioned facts about stealth are useful and interesting but I feel they represent an “on paper” version of the ability. In practice it tends to be much more useful that the facts would imply and has the potential to be devastating in a way that other classes just cannot match.
In my opinion, that I feel is supported by the above observations, stealth is an amazing ability and attacking from stealth is more than just dangerous for the target. It offers the rogue the ability to do things other classes simply cannot do in any way and when min/maxed will trump other min/maxed abilities with ease.
You can say I am wrong, but I don’t think you can prove it.
So if the argument is that stealth is fair and balanced, I posit that, empirically, stealth offers opportunities to do combat damage unopposed. Can anyone else do that?
You raise a number of good points about stealth and its utility, and I am inclined to agree that it is indeed an amazing ability that gives the rogue something that the other classes do not get. Nobody here is trying to argue that stealth is weak or is not any good for anything.
As for trumping other class abilities no matter what, I will beg to differ however. The proof of this is in the multitude of players who post in these forums. Countless countless posts about how TRs are not OP, and they can be handled just fine. Many of those posts from a variety of all of the classes (perhaps only a few DCs, admittedly) even reveal their technique and/or build specs for how they defang these pesky rogues and send them packing.
I will concede that a well-played rogue is very dangerous, especially when geared with P2W enchants, but put those same enchants on a well-played GWF and you have a creature who is just as dominant (or more) without needing to hide themselves to survive. Again, I think the sense of OPness that comes out in the forums concerning ANY class is not a class balance issue, but a P2W issue. You are free to disagree with me on that, and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Perfect Vorpal enchants don't really make much of a difference, or Greater Tenebrous, etc., but perhaps that is a loaded statement and a bit of a straw man.
EDIT: As an afterthought, I'd like to restate for the record that I have nothing against P2W enchants, nor do I consider them "cheats" or "exploits". The reality that we all must face is that zen purchases keep the servers running... no zen = no game. What we should be wary of is basing our opinions of class disparity upon what is actually gear disparity.
Nialo Dragon server here - I spent many of AD's in respecs and gears to figure out what I find to be the "best" perma stealth build and setup. So I just want offer my opinions and viewpoints in a rambling order to the folks of Neverwinter.
First and foremost its no trick to stay "perma stealth" Bait n Switch + Shadow Dagger = In stealth for a very long time. There are some other feats you can spec into that allow you to regenerate your stamina faster and use less of it to dodge roll while in stealth + recovering stealth 10% at a time per dodge, that increases your length of time. GG gear gives the rouges 25% more stealth. Also there is the End game active that allows you to refill your stealth meter upon using a daily, all said and done blamo "Perma stealth". Now any well played "perma stealth" rouge will know no matter what you do, you will always have a 2-6 second gap, that you cannot account for and will be out of stealth when you run out of tricks.
Secondly, "Perma stealth" Rouges have 2 choices A) Stack recovery + INT to keep that out of stealth gap as low as possible. But dramatically giving up damage in return. (The option I went with) Stack Teneb Enchants and pour damage via CoS + Path of Blades & eat the 4-6 Second out of stealth via Dodging, and generally staying away from players when out of stealth.
Pro's to Perma Stealth. I cannot stess enough, That between Path of Blades + CoS + Bloodbath, I can easily, and I mean easily 3v1 Undergeared, underskilled players. If there is one thing perma stealth does for you, its show you who is worth their weight in salt. CoS dagger here, CoS dagger there, maybe a quick DF strike with a dodge in and out, While Path is stabbing away. Then when stealth is about to end hit Path again with your last bit of stealth to half its tick time + bloodbath, and vwalla 3v1 Win + Your back in stealth once you stop dancing around from Blood just in case someone shows up.
Harassing, Ohh man this Spec of rouge is the ultimate harasser, 9 matchs out of 10, im not fighting 1v1 on the enemy nodes, im fighting 2-5 v 1 effectively keeping the enemy team occupied and my team winning.
Con's to perma stealth. I am the squishiest thing on the battlefield. I cannot tell you how many times, Soulforged has saved my life by allowing me to get back into stealth via a dagger. But Alas the bottom line, if im caught out of stealth, Im going down 99.9999% of the time, and I must come out of stealth in 2-6 second gaps, every 30-40 seconds roughly. So its either hide, Kite, or Die every half minute or so.
Dots + AoE's are your worse enemy, regardless of what anyone says from the outside looking in. Anyone on the inside knows, that you can be seen, and will be seen, either from getting a little to close, or from very smart players recognizing your patterns + noticing little things like where your daggers are coming from, or even the faint sheen your enchantment gives off on your mainhand weapon, which can been seen no matter what when attacking. You live in stealth, you need stealth and when you get dotted or are unlucky and get hit with a AoE it dramatically increases your out of stealth time by reducing your total stealth meter even with tenacious concealment. On average I would say on a good day from 2-6 seconds normally to 7-10 seconds. On a bad day, well you probably wont get back into stealth.
Another Regardless of what anyone says on the outside looking in, Good players will be a nightmare, because A) You only have 12 CoS Daggers, and as mentioned before in this post, even CoS + Path can only do so much, once your out, its run around in circles, maybe hit a DF here and there, and try and gather AP before you become visible. Many good players, will just avoid you and dodge until your mandatory must come out stage, and then blamo your on the fritz unless you have completely fled by this stage.
My Conclusion; I would take a long look at GF & GWF before calling perma stealth "OP". I Agree I said it myself, this class has the potential to be very over powered. I can easily 3v1 undergeared inexperienced pvp'ers. But I know rouges running Impact shot + Lurkers from executioner with vorpal that walk away every match with 15+ to 1 Kill to deaths every single match, from being 1-2 shot wonders.
Perma Stealth is overpowered, for the inexperienced, and undergeared. 100% I agree, but I speak from experience, even the CW which we are ment to counter, played by someone with a brain, will kill / darn near kill me 1 on 1 every single time. Yet alone if you get a solid GF or GWF who can just laugh off my CoS + Path damage.
The problem with Perma stealth the only problem ive found from the playing the class side of the fence, is the effect it has on the mind of the enemy. Not being able to see your target, messes with your head big time, and causes many teams even pre mades to over compensate to deal with me. Stop doing that & you will realize this class is not so OP. Just send 1 Good player to the node & You have the permastealth countered.
Thank you for reading my rambling ramble. Hope it made some form of crazy nonsensical sense.
Thanks for the input, ognialo, it is much appreciated. I hope everyone reads your post (which DID make sense and did not ramble LOL) with an open mind and tries to understand that it takes high player skill and gear to make high-end PVP so lopsided. Would you agree that your victories vs. multiple opponents were most oftentimes against groups of players that most likely did not have top-notch gear?
Pro's to Perma Stealth. I cannot stess enough, That between Path of Blades + CoS + Bloodbath, I can easily, and I mean easily 3v1 Undergeared, underskilled players. If there is one thing perma stealth does for you, its show you who is worth their weight in salt. CoS dagger here, CoS dagger there, maybe a quick DF strike with a dodge in and out, While Path is stabbing away. Then when stealth is about to end hit Path again with your last bit of stealth to half its tick time + bloodbath, and vwalla 3v1 Win + Your back in stealth once you stop dancing around from Blood just in case someone shows up.
Yea man, it all comes down to gear and player skill. If you are undergeared, and underskilled, Well its easy victories for me. If your well geared, and well versed in PvP. Im going to have problems, manytimes insurmountable problems in defeating you. Very well geared GF, GWF & Clerics can literally just stand there and laugh at me, ill never kill them and stay perma stealth. I could deviate from the Perma stealth, and throw lashing + lurkers + impact & deal with them, but thats not perma stealth & im a perma stealth rouge.
Thanks for the quick reply, Nialo, and for the benefit of the non-rogue players reading this thread, I'd also like to add that your answer echoes what many many rogues have stated in the forums before. The plain and simple truth is that gear matters. Knowing your class and playstyle like the back of your hand matters.
Nice guide/faq. Doubt itll stop the qq, but may lessen it.
I have to say that the fact an int based tr build even works says great things about this game. Its such an "out of the box" idea. I really hope other such builds can work for other classes.
Back on topic, anyone who has a real problem with int trs seriously just needs to play one or watch someone play one. They all do similar tricks and once you learn them they are pretty easy.
I lvled my cw with a int tr friend.
Playing with him showed me how this build operates. They love to hide, hit n' run, and pick off the nearly dead.
my cw just hit 60 (so my gear is terrible), but i still manage to kill perma-stealth trs 1v1. First, use the knives direction to guess their location, then charge at them, most dont want you to see them so they will roll, follow them, they will roll again, now that their rolls arw gone follow again, and open up on them. In my **** gear i have to do this twice and glup a pot, but i normally win.
The trick stay on top of them. Rolling breaks their cos build up dmg. Whwn seen they play defensively- use that to keep them on their toes and uncomfortable. With their smug "haha you cant see me" advantage taken away they nearly all run or die.
If everyone would just get over their initial panic when getting hit from stealth, they would be able to develop some strategy for fighting perma-stealth trs.
The trick stay on top of them. Rolling breaks their cos build up dmg. Whwn seen they play defensively- use that to keep them on their toes and uncomfortable. With their smug "haha you cant see me" advantage taken away they nearly all run or die.
If everyone would just get over their initial panic when getting hit from stealth, they would be able to develop some strategy for fighting perma-stealth trs.
Exactly what I was talking about just a page back, intelligent players are a nightmare.
I fear you may have left out some misconceptions in your initial premise. Consider this.
Its not just rogues out there
The rogue is on a team and when the GF has a choice of the GWF beating on them or the invisible rogue delivering endless beestings from beyond. The GF will certainly react to the threat he or she can see. That means the rogue has all the maneuvering time, the fighting time and the recovery time to do damage. And not all of it has to be from stealth. The problem for the targeted class is that they cannot maneuver for defense, especially when engaged. They just have to take it. The rogue just become a massive damage buff for other classes that can't be canceled or countered. Observe the following.
notice how the rogue is extremely effective when solo but also is absolutely ignored when the target is engaged. Note also how taking damage does nothing to mitigate their ability to come and go in stealth and AoE templates are avoided with laughable ease.
Moving won’t save you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yng4nZBdMhM
Here we see a rogue demolishing an entire party. Notice how the significant damage is always done from stealth where they cannot be seen and can evade the target easily. Once the target is low enough in health to pose no serious risk the rogue can exit stealth and finish them off easily. Note how the targets are moving the whole time with the possible exception of the poor schlub who gets helped up by his buddy only to get murdered instantly again by the rogue who is standing right beside them, stealthed, waiting to the fellow to get back up.
Stealth saves
It is expected that you will die in PVP but stealth will save you. It’s not a magic iwin button but all it takes is a corner and stealth will turn a mortal situation right back into a rogue dominant situation. So if the opposing team does not outright kill you, you can still thin their herd with ease. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1cEyXk0PA
So if the argument is that stealth is fair and balanced, I posit that, empirically, stealth offers opportunities to do combat damage unopposed. Can anyone else do that?
The effects of stealth damage cannot be effectively countered with maneuvering because the stealthy aggressor can simply reposition even past other enemies or among other enemy targets to deliver damage unopposed. Can other classes do that?
Hard Countering the damage (block, Unstoppable, massive healing, etc) just lets the rogue slip away to another softer target without either target knowing until several seconds of damage have passed even if the targets are far apart. If that GS is too hard a target I could just go hunt down the CW and neither would know that I was doing that until it was too late. Can other classes do that?
Due to the psychology of combat, stealth turns rogues into damage buffs for other combatants for which there is no counter.
You could argue that all the above visual evidence is biased, that the opposition is just bad and anyway what rogue would put up a vid of him or herself getting owned. But can it be that everyone else is really bad? Can it be that so many people are suddenly so bad at this particular game and all referencing stealth coincidentally?
The aforementioned facts about stealth are useful and interesting but I feel they represent an “on paper” version of the ability. In practice it tends to be much more useful that the facts would imply and has the potential to be devastating in a way that other classes just cannot match.
In my opinion, that I feel is supported by the above observations, stealth is an amazing ability and attacking from stealth is more than just dangerous for the target. It offers the rogue the ability to do things other classes simply cannot do in any way and when min/maxed will trump other min/maxed abilities with ease.
You can say I am wrong, but I don’t think you can prove it.
Yup, this pretty much shows how out of hand the stealth-ranged meta is for rogues.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
gctrl, the videos norn linked in your quote just proved the point about gear. LOL
Also, we are talking about the guy (INTRogue) who may play the stealth rogue build better than most anyone, at least in the top 1%... again -- player skill matters.
The last video norn linked showed a rogue just about die. He narrowly escapes... which is more from luck than anything else as far as I could tell. That was the proof nornsavant used to make the point about stealth being an invincibility cloak? We watch a rogue nearly bite it, and we are meant to believe that stealth makes us immune to death? Hardly.
As I said before, norn raised some interesting points, but his analysis comes from a place of prejudice, and will always be flawed. The theorem that Stealth = Godhood has been disproven repeatedly. Don't take the rogues' words for it -- look at the posts from other classes just in this thread alone who have concurred.
gctrl, the videos norn linked in your quote just proved the point about gear. LOL
Also, we are talking about the guy (INTRogue) who may play the stealth rogue build better than most anyone, at least in the top 1%... again -- player skill matters.
The last video norn linked showed a rogue just about die. He narrowly escapes... which is more from luck than anything else as far as I could tell. That was the proof nornsavant used to make the point about stealth being an invincibility cloak? We watch a rogue nearly bite it, and we are meant to believe that stealth makes us immune to death? Hardly.
As I said before, norn raised some interesting points, but his analysis comes from a place of prejudice, and will always be flawed. The theorem that Stealth = Godhood has been disproven repeatedly. Don't take the rogues' words for it -- look at the posts from other classes just in this thread alone who have concurred.
CWs never escape, they die. All the time, fast and violently. Hope this game chokes on rogues.
I fear you may have left out some misconceptions in your initial premise. Consider this.
Its not just rogues out there
The rogue is on a team and when the GF has a choice of the GWF beating on them or the invisible rogue delivering endless beestings from beyond. The GF will certainly react to the threat he or she can see. That means the rogue has all the maneuvering time, the fighting time and the recovery time to do damage. And not all of it has to be from stealth. The problem for the targeted class is that they cannot maneuver for defense, especially when engaged. They just have to take it. The rogue just become a massive damage buff for other classes that can't be canceled or countered. Observe the following.
notice how the rogue is extremely effective when solo but also is absolutely ignored when the target is engaged. Note also how taking damage does nothing to mitigate their ability to come and go in stealth and AoE templates are avoided with laughable ease.
Moving won’t save you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yng4nZBdMhM
Here we see a rogue demolishing an entire party. Notice how the significant damage is always done from stealth where they cannot be seen and can evade the target easily. Once the target is low enough in health to pose no serious risk the rogue can exit stealth and finish them off easily. Note how the targets are moving the whole time with the possible exception of the poor schlub who gets helped up by his buddy only to get murdered instantly again by the rogue who is standing right beside them, stealthed, waiting to the fellow to get back up.
Stealth saves
It is expected that you will die in PVP but stealth will save you. It’s not a magic iwin button but all it takes is a corner and stealth will turn a mortal situation right back into a rogue dominant situation. So if the opposing team does not outright kill you, you can still thin their herd with ease. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1cEyXk0PA
So if the argument is that stealth is fair and balanced, I posit that, empirically, stealth offers opportunities to do combat damage unopposed. Can anyone else do that?
The effects of stealth damage cannot be effectively countered with maneuvering because the stealthy aggressor can simply reposition even past other enemies or among other enemy targets to deliver damage unopposed. Can other classes do that?
Hard Countering the damage (block, Unstoppable, massive healing, etc) just lets the rogue slip away to another softer target without either target knowing until several seconds of damage have passed even if the targets are far apart. If that GS is too hard a target I could just go hunt down the CW and neither would know that I was doing that until it was too late. Can other classes do that?
Due to the psychology of combat, stealth turns rogues into damage buffs for other combatants for which there is no counter.
You could argue that all the above visual evidence is biased, that the opposition is just bad and anyway what rogue would put up a vid of him or herself getting owned. But can it be that everyone else is really bad? Can it be that so many people are suddenly so bad at this particular game and all referencing stealth coincidentally?
The aforementioned facts about stealth are useful and interesting but I feel they represent an “on paper” version of the ability. In practice it tends to be much more useful that the facts would imply and has the potential to be devastating in a way that other classes just cannot match.
In my opinion, that I feel is supported by the above observations, stealth is an amazing ability and attacking from stealth is more than just dangerous for the target. It offers the rogue the ability to do things other classes simply cannot do in any way and when min/maxed will trump other min/maxed abilities with ease.
You can say I am wrong, but I don’t think you can prove it.
This is what I'd like to call rational thinking. You're never going to convince the irrational otherwise though.
gctrl, the videos norn linked in your quote just proved the point about gear. LOL
Also, we are talking about the guy (INTRogue) who may play the stealth rogue build better than most anyone, at least in the top 1%... again -- player skill matters.
The last video norn linked showed a rogue just about die. He narrowly escapes... which is more from luck than anything else as far as I could tell. That was the proof nornsavant used to make the point about stealth being an invincibility cloak? We watch a rogue nearly bite it, and we are meant to believe that stealth makes us immune to death? Hardly.
As I said before, norn raised some interesting points, but his analysis comes from a place of prejudice, and will always be flawed. The theorem that Stealth = Godhood has been disproven repeatedly. Don't take the rogues' words for it -- look at the posts from other classes just in this thread alone who have concurred.
The skill cap for any class in this game is ridiculously low, so making an argument "it's INTRogue" does not negate the fact of what a rogue is capable of doing.
The last video norn linked showed a rogue just about to die. He narrowly ESCAPES... Key word there... Whether it was by luck or not. He was showing what the stealth mechanic allows the rogue to do that no other class is capable of.
As for claiming norn is some how prejudice and his views are flawed, is awfully prejudicial yourself. What relevant facts is he somehow missing in this biasedly opinionated case we're arguing over? He never once claimed that stealth was "Godhood". He has merely pointed out what the stealth mechanic allows a rogue to do that no other class is capable of doing and added video evidence showing it and asked you to somehow disprove it. But you can't because all you can do is deflect towards gear and enchants and folks that share your opinion.
This is what I'd like to call rational thinking. You're never going to convince the irrational otherwise though.
The skill cap for any class in this game is ridiculously low, so making an argument "it's INTRogue" does not negate the fact of what a rogue is capable of doing.
The last video norn linked showed a rogue just about to die. He narrowly ESCAPES... Key word there... Whether it was by luck or not. He was showing what the stealth mechanic allows the rogue to do that no other class is capable of.
As for claiming norn is some how prejudice and his views are flawed, is awfully prejudicial yourself. What relevant facts is he somehow missing in this biasedly opinionated case we're arguing over? He never once claimed that stealth was "Godhood". He has merely pointed out what the stealth mechanic allows a rogue to do that no other class is capable of doing and added video evidence showing it and asked you to somehow disprove it. But you can't because all you can do is deflect towards gear and enchants and folks that share your opinion.
And the CW's triple teleport (dodge) or the GWF's sprint doesn't allow them to escape? :-/
Something that people fail to realize is that the "flaw" of the stealth mechanic (can be seen, hence targetted, when standing too close to enemies) is covered by 1) Teammate distractions and 2) CoS.
You can whine about how CoS only has 12 shots and does little damage and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, being outside your stealth danger zone while dealing damage is what makes people say its OP. My TR without any tenebrous enchantments NOR debuffs can bring down an average-good geared CW/TR/DC from 100% to 50-0% with just 13-14 hits of CoS (charge cooldown is roughly 4 seconds). My CW can never hope to achieve that kind of damage without debuffing the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of my target (assailing force COI/double ROE). Per hit damage of CoS on my TR is pretty much double that of my CW's magic missiles damage, and my TR only has 2.1k power or so, compared to my CW's 3.2k.
Stealth is also the reason why I was able to go 17~ kills 0 deaths top spot on gauntgyrm PVP while solo capping many enemy caps without issue, as well as escaping near-death situations on numerous occassions. I could sort-of do that on my GWF if I don't have too many people focusing me so that I would live and run to a potion, but on my CW there was literally no chance for escaping any type of actual situation. Much like CWs, I definitely don't see how a GF or DC would be able to escape from 5-10 people ganging up on them. But TRs do that with ease, thanks to the handy thing called stealth.
Then just a few days ago, I soloed about 40% of the T1 boss on my TR (the rest of the party wiped) thanks once again to stealth. Achieved without an INT build nor any recovery, solely gauntgrym pvp set and stealth feat. It was also very hilarious how TRs kept bring up the excusing of how they were "nerfed" during the balance patch, where in fact the only real thing that got nerfed was the SE daily. Power was improved to give TR encounters more damage, yet SE getting the nerf bat = TR got nerfed as a whole? Really now.
As for claiming norn is some how prejudice and his views are flawed, is awfully prejudicial yourself. What relevant facts is he somehow missing in this biasedly opinionated case we're arguing over? He never once claimed that stealth was "Godhood". He has merely pointed out what the stealth mechanic allows a rogue to do that no other class is capable of doing and added video evidence showing it and asked you to somehow disprove it. But you can't because all you can do is deflect towards gear and enchants and folks that share your opinion.
I correctly labeled Norn as prejudiced against stealth due to the fact that all the facts, taken in context, quite clearly show that stealth is NOT an "easy trump" vs. all other class abilities. The relevant facts that are missing are everything else that can easily be found all over the forums concerning this topic, including many posts just in this particular thread. Therefore, I inferred that he was arguing from a pre-decided outcome that he wanted to generate, rather then letting the facts speak for themselves. It is a very common thing to do -- to have an idea of what you want to believe, and then only "seeing" the evidence that supports your belief while ignoring the evidence that does not.
I did not ignore the videos. What I saw was a top-notch player in top-notch gear doing quite well for himself. I saw a rogue narrowly escape being pwned = rogues are not invulnerable and can get their butts kicked/chased off. You and several others interpreted what they saw differently from me, because there is a pre-determined narrative you are trying to craft here -- you are trying to manipulate, rather than illuminate. Which is pretty basic human nature, so I can understand that.
I knew from the start that a thread titled in such a way as this one would be a magnet for exactly what it hopes to dispel. I also know that I am NOT going to change the minds of anyone who has already thoroughly decided what they want to believe on this matter. This thread exists to shed some light on stealth and its mechanics for the newer folks who just don't know much about it and come to the forums -- perhaps after a bad match or ten -- and want to learn more. It can also be linked to from other threads that are started by the frustrated people who are emotional and could use a kinder response in their newly minted "nerf rogues" thread than "L2P" and "you suck".
Addendum: I hope it's clear by now that I continue to indulge your posts with responses because it gives me an opportunity to clarify on other posts that I and others have made... for the benefit of those who are not quite decided in this issue. When you run out of ammo -- and you will -- I will certainly miss my newest best friend on the forums.
He was showing what the stealth mechanic allows the rogue to do that no other class is capable of.
Which is what the tab button is all about. Only the CW has 4 encounter abilities active. Only the GF can block damage. Every class can do something that no other class is capable of.
Which is what the tab button is all about. Only the CW has 4 encounter abilities active. Only the GF can block damage. Every class can do something that no other class is capable of.
I think the point he was trying to make is that stealth makes the rogue "unkillable"... which, taken at face value, is absurd. Are they more difficult to kill when they run away? Yes, simply from being harder to target... unless they are out of stealth and then it's game over. As has been mentioned numerous times all over the forums, a rogue without stealth is at a severe disadvantage.
In fact, I bet a case could be made to show that the rogue class more than any other is reliant upon its tab ability for survival. Let's take a match wherein nobody can use their tab... who is the dead meat?
In fact, I bet a case could be made to show that the rogue class more than any other is reliant upon its tab ability for survival. Let's take a match wherein nobody can use their tab... who is the dead meat?
In that case, CW would own everyone. And rogues will be at the bottom of the food chain. Why? Rogues have no effective gap closer like GF or GWF, lower defense, and less hp than both. CW can CC from 80' away then GG.
I like the title of this thread, especially the ""hysteria" part. I always get a good laugh when someone post something along the line of "OMG TR OP, nerf pl0x!" or when someone says he quit the match because he can't kill stealth TR, and pretends he "OWN" the TR.
I like the title of this thread, especially the ""hysteria" part. I always get a good laugh when someone post something along the line of "OMG TR OP, nerf pl0x!" ...
Thanks, yramrag, and I'd like to reiterate to my fellow rogues that the part above I quoted you is relevant to the discussion here.
We are all of us, I believe, a little bit guilty of that schadenfreude (some of us more than others), and one of the reasons that I made this thread was to give us all a tool in our forum arsenal that could both dispel the hysteria and act as valid response to the nerf threads.
Let's face it... stealth gives us a psychological edge in PVP. It is confounding and frustrating for players to try to fight something that they cannot see, and the natural response to it is not to sit back and consider alternatives, but to cry foul play and let that emotional negativity make their decisions for them. Thus, they come here to the forums and complain that it is too much.
Anyone with any sense of empathy at all can identify with that. What absolutely does not help anything at all is to spout "L2P" and "you suck" to these players. I'm not going to name names, but you know who you are out there. Please please please stop that. It is not clever or amusing in any way to just be disrespectful like that, and it reflects badly on our TR community as a whole. Every "you suck, L2P" comment drags us all down.
I understand it, rogues... we get so much flak about this and it gets very old after a while. It seems that no matter how much you try to help there is always going to be another nerf thread -- more QQ. What I am begging of you guys is this: do not feed the hype with L2P. Point them here. Be the bigger better person about this. It is so easy to just copypaste a link and know that you are in the right without having to be a jerk to somebody who may be having a bad day and is frustrated.
It takes two to tango, guys... when enough of us get in the habit of pointing the QQers here instead of verbally abusing them, then things will slowly change. The hysteria will die down. People will learn. The nerf threads will slow to a trickle and all but die away. All I'm asking of you guys is to give it a try, okay?
Let's face it... stealth gives us a psychological edge in PVP. It is confounding and frustrating for players to try to fight something that they cannot see, and the natural response to it is not to sit back and consider alternatives, but to cry foul play and let that emotional negativity make their decisions for them. Thus, they come here to the forums and complain that it is too much.
This is so true. Every MMO I have played that has a rogue class with stealth (e.g., Guild Wars 2, Runes of Magic) has cause people to go berserk, and usually it all boils down to learn2play issues, and learning how to adjust and counter stealth. In Guild Wars 2 the Thief's (rogue) stealth mechanism is even more restrictive and yet you see people QQ-ing in forum about it.
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marlasingersMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 14Arc User
I think the number one frustration of any player is losing control and not being able to get out of a bad spot. If you look at pvp/pve videos, the moment the player loses control on his toon, the frantic keysmashing will begin.
In pvp(videos) TR's are like sharks, they could be potentially anywhere, which translates to 'they are everywhere'. I mean, it only takes one sharksighting to close miles and miles of beach. It's a natural reaction to an invisible threat.
But enough with the Discovery Channel poppsychobabble, the biggest gripe against TR's is insane ranged killing power while being stealthed. People want stealth nerfed because, as you say, they don't find their attacker.
I think you're right, and there's a population of players that adjust quickly to these type of obstacles in their pvp success, and there's those that have a harder time.
I for instance, I gravitate towards setting up comfortable keybinds, and always the same "spell" (or at least similar) bound to the same key. I despise changing them because it always translates into tons of mistakes in the upcoming matches, and it lasts a while. In Neverwinter, you will be punished for this type of inflexibility. Not every match is the same, and your "loadout" should reflect the best set of skills for the match type and your desired targets, and then adjusted based on success.
And its not like we're managing 30 keybinds, and two of them are passives. So this game has a shift in the type of "skill" it rewards. It's not a twitchy game, not if I can play it. It rewards things like preparation, research, and tactical awareness. If a rogue wants to chase me all over the map, she's already dead, I'm not going to get killed in a spot where she can just walk away unscathed. There's no twitchy skill to that, you just have to be aware of your surroundings and extremely petty.
Marla raises an excellent point about flexibility mattering as well. The really good PVPers might change their usual loadout based on who they are facing, and might make corrections mid-match to adapt, if things are going south.
Also, what cannot be ignored is the teamwork factor. All other things being equal, those who have good teammates that work together well are going to have an easier time of it than those who don't -- no matter what class.
Comments
Great post, marla... thank you.
Haha that was me (the thread originator) who said "don't hold your breath for nerfs."
I totally agree with that last sentence above I quoted from you, but there are going to be some frustrated people that are going to disagree with us (some of them quite vehemently). If they have poured money into the game, then their sense of entitlement is going to be even larger, as they are "paying customers". Which, again, I can totally understand -- while not necessarily agreeing with their point of view, nor giving their sense of entitlement any undue weight that it does not deserve.
I think one of the major problems with all the furor on the forums about this issue is not just from the people who are overly pissed-off, but also the people who respond to this angst with "L2P" and a personal insult. IMO that isn't helping anything or anybody at all... but there is little that can be done about that.
My sincere wish is for people who start "nerf rogue" threads to be calmly/politely directed to this thread WITHOUT any name-calling or insults. I understand that the chances of this happening much, if at all, are probably very close to zero. LOL
You are pretty much wrong with the order relating to Neverwinter. The list of easykills is as follows:
Wizards: Can easykill Clerics and Rogues if they get the jump on them.
Rogues: Can easykill Clerics and Wizards if they get the jump on them.
Clerics: Can kill anyone they massively overgear, otherwise they are boned and are usually a prime target.
Guardian Fighters: Can easykill anyone other than GWF.
Great Weapon Fighters: Can easykill anyone unless you are massively undergeared or braindead.
Also if a rogue is permastealth build, run towards them, they aren't invincible and you can see stealthers when close. Damage won't break it, but you can certainly still kill them. They want you to run away or stay ranged, because then you can't target them.
^
This.
I think the number one frustration of any player is losing control and not being able to get out of a bad spot. If you look at pvp/pve videos, the moment the player loses control on his toon, the frantic keysmashing will begin.
In pvp(videos) TR's are like sharks, they could be potentially anywhere, which translates to 'they are everywhere'. I mean, it only takes one sharksighting to close miles and miles of beach. It's a natural reaction to an invisible threat.
But enough with the Discovery Channel poppsychobabble, the biggest gripe against TR's is insane ranged killing power while being stealthed. People want stealth nerfed because, as you say, they don't find their attacker.
Beautifully said, that is exactly how I felt when I leveled a stealth based rogue.
It is so frustrating reading all these whining threads about rogues, especially when the crying ends with "if you disagree with my opinion then you are irrational".
I have been on the receiving end of a stealthed CoS at level cap- and killed by it, or a lashing blade that nearly one shots me. But I know from 100s of games before level cap where I never had such an experience that the issue is not class balance but the way gear scales at level cap with enchants etc.
For nearly all of the game, including pre-level 60 pvp, the play experience is as you say, challenging and fun.
I think the problem here is stealth gives #2. I understand the outcry. Stalkers (the stealth class) were initially OP and later nerfed.
However, I have pvped here solely on my CW (I have a TR, also), and the problem is NOT TR stealth ,nor TR CoS, it is initiative.
A rogue dictates when and where she strikes. Of course, they will use this to their advantage. It is their purpose.
As a CW, I use my range to my advantage. I will attempt to destroy any GF/GWF/TR from 80 feet given the opportunity. It is MY purpose as a CW.
Do I enjoy being defeated by a rogue? Of course not. Usually, I am already down on health, making me a prime target. Would I pass on targeting a near-dead target? No. Of course I wouldn't.
My point: people object to losing initiative, the stealth and CoS are really excuses.
Its not just rogues out there
The rogue is on a team and when the GF has a choice of the GWF beating on them or the invisible rogue delivering endless beestings from beyond. The GF will certainly react to the threat he or she can see. That means the rogue has all the maneuvering time, the fighting time and the recovery time to do damage. And not all of it has to be from stealth. The problem for the targeted class is that they cannot maneuver for defense, especially when engaged. They just have to take it. The rogue just become a massive damage buff for other classes that can't be canceled or countered. Observe the following.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU1cWTIjM1o
notice how the rogue is extremely effective when solo but also is absolutely ignored when the target is engaged. Note also how taking damage does nothing to mitigate their ability to come and go in stealth and AoE templates are avoided with laughable ease.
Moving won’t save you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yng4nZBdMhM
Here we see a rogue demolishing an entire party. Notice how the significant damage is always done from stealth where they cannot be seen and can evade the target easily. Once the target is low enough in health to pose no serious risk the rogue can exit stealth and finish them off easily. Note how the targets are moving the whole time with the possible exception of the poor schlub who gets helped up by his buddy only to get murdered instantly again by the rogue who is standing right beside them, stealthed, waiting to the fellow to get back up.
Stealth saves
It is expected that you will die in PVP but stealth will save you. It’s not a magic iwin button but all it takes is a corner and stealth will turn a mortal situation right back into a rogue dominant situation. So if the opposing team does not outright kill you, you can still thin their herd with ease.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1cEyXk0PA
So if the argument is that stealth is fair and balanced, I posit that, empirically, stealth offers opportunities to do combat damage unopposed. Can anyone else do that?
The effects of stealth damage cannot be effectively countered with maneuvering because the stealthy aggressor can simply reposition even past other enemies or among other enemy targets to deliver damage unopposed. Can other classes do that?
Hard Countering the damage (block, Unstoppable, massive healing, etc) just lets the rogue slip away to another softer target without either target knowing until several seconds of damage have passed even if the targets are far apart. If that GS is too hard a target I could just go hunt down the CW and neither would know that I was doing that until it was too late. Can other classes do that?
Due to the psychology of combat, stealth turns rogues into damage buffs for other combatants for which there is no counter.
You could argue that all the above visual evidence is biased, that the opposition is just bad and anyway what rogue would put up a vid of him or herself getting owned. But can it be that everyone else is really bad? Can it be that so many people are suddenly so bad at this particular game and all referencing stealth coincidentally?
The aforementioned facts about stealth are useful and interesting but I feel they represent an “on paper” version of the ability. In practice it tends to be much more useful that the facts would imply and has the potential to be devastating in a way that other classes just cannot match.
In my opinion, that I feel is supported by the above observations, stealth is an amazing ability and attacking from stealth is more than just dangerous for the target. It offers the rogue the ability to do things other classes simply cannot do in any way and when min/maxed will trump other min/maxed abilities with ease.
You can say I am wrong, but I don’t think you can prove it.
yes
/10char
You raise a number of good points about stealth and its utility, and I am inclined to agree that it is indeed an amazing ability that gives the rogue something that the other classes do not get. Nobody here is trying to argue that stealth is weak or is not any good for anything.
As for trumping other class abilities no matter what, I will beg to differ however. The proof of this is in the multitude of players who post in these forums. Countless countless posts about how TRs are not OP, and they can be handled just fine. Many of those posts from a variety of all of the classes (perhaps only a few DCs, admittedly) even reveal their technique and/or build specs for how they defang these pesky rogues and send them packing.
I will concede that a well-played rogue is very dangerous, especially when geared with P2W enchants, but put those same enchants on a well-played GWF and you have a creature who is just as dominant (or more) without needing to hide themselves to survive. Again, I think the sense of OPness that comes out in the forums concerning ANY class is not a class balance issue, but a P2W issue. You are free to disagree with me on that, and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Perfect Vorpal enchants don't really make much of a difference, or Greater Tenebrous, etc., but perhaps that is a loaded statement and a bit of a straw man.
EDIT: As an afterthought, I'd like to restate for the record that I have nothing against P2W enchants, nor do I consider them "cheats" or "exploits". The reality that we all must face is that zen purchases keep the servers running... no zen = no game. What we should be wary of is basing our opinions of class disparity upon what is actually gear disparity.
First and foremost its no trick to stay "perma stealth" Bait n Switch + Shadow Dagger = In stealth for a very long time. There are some other feats you can spec into that allow you to regenerate your stamina faster and use less of it to dodge roll while in stealth + recovering stealth 10% at a time per dodge, that increases your length of time. GG gear gives the rouges 25% more stealth. Also there is the End game active that allows you to refill your stealth meter upon using a daily, all said and done blamo "Perma stealth". Now any well played "perma stealth" rouge will know no matter what you do, you will always have a 2-6 second gap, that you cannot account for and will be out of stealth when you run out of tricks.
Secondly, "Perma stealth" Rouges have 2 choices A) Stack recovery + INT to keep that out of stealth gap as low as possible. But dramatically giving up damage in return.
Pro's to Perma Stealth. I cannot stess enough, That between Path of Blades + CoS + Bloodbath, I can easily, and I mean easily 3v1 Undergeared, underskilled players. If there is one thing perma stealth does for you, its show you who is worth their weight in salt. CoS dagger here, CoS dagger there, maybe a quick DF strike with a dodge in and out, While Path is stabbing away. Then when stealth is about to end hit Path again with your last bit of stealth to half its tick time + bloodbath, and vwalla 3v1 Win + Your back in stealth once you stop dancing around from Blood just in case someone shows up.
Harassing, Ohh man this Spec of rouge is the ultimate harasser, 9 matchs out of 10, im not fighting 1v1 on the enemy nodes, im fighting 2-5 v 1 effectively keeping the enemy team occupied and my team winning.
Con's to perma stealth. I am the squishiest thing on the battlefield. I cannot tell you how many times, Soulforged has saved my life by allowing me to get back into stealth via a dagger. But Alas the bottom line, if im caught out of stealth, Im going down 99.9999% of the time, and I must come out of stealth in 2-6 second gaps, every 30-40 seconds roughly. So its either hide, Kite, or Die every half minute or so.
Dots + AoE's are your worse enemy, regardless of what anyone says from the outside looking in. Anyone on the inside knows, that you can be seen, and will be seen, either from getting a little to close, or from very smart players recognizing your patterns + noticing little things like where your daggers are coming from, or even the faint sheen your enchantment gives off on your mainhand weapon, which can been seen no matter what when attacking. You live in stealth, you need stealth and when you get dotted or are unlucky and get hit with a AoE it dramatically increases your out of stealth time by reducing your total stealth meter even with tenacious concealment. On average I would say on a good day from 2-6 seconds normally to 7-10 seconds. On a bad day, well you probably wont get back into stealth.
Another Regardless of what anyone says on the outside looking in, Good players will be a nightmare, because A) You only have 12 CoS Daggers, and as mentioned before in this post, even CoS + Path can only do so much, once your out, its run around in circles, maybe hit a DF here and there, and try and gather AP before you become visible. Many good players, will just avoid you and dodge until your mandatory must come out stage, and then blamo your on the fritz unless you have completely fled by this stage.
My Conclusion; I would take a long look at GF & GWF before calling perma stealth "OP". I Agree I said it myself, this class has the potential to be very over powered. I can easily 3v1 undergeared inexperienced pvp'ers. But I know rouges running Impact shot + Lurkers from executioner with vorpal that walk away every match with 15+ to 1 Kill to deaths every single match, from being 1-2 shot wonders.
Perma Stealth is overpowered, for the inexperienced, and undergeared. 100% I agree, but I speak from experience, even the CW which we are ment to counter, played by someone with a brain, will kill / darn near kill me 1 on 1 every single time. Yet alone if you get a solid GF or GWF who can just laugh off my CoS + Path damage.
The problem with Perma stealth the only problem ive found from the playing the class side of the fence, is the effect it has on the mind of the enemy. Not being able to see your target, messes with your head big time, and causes many teams even pre mades to over compensate to deal with me. Stop doing that & you will realize this class is not so OP. Just send 1 Good player to the node & You have the permastealth countered.
Thank you for reading my rambling ramble. Hope it made some form of crazy nonsensical sense.
C-ya
Yea man, it all comes down to gear and player skill. If you are undergeared, and underskilled, Well its easy victories for me. If your well geared, and well versed in PvP. Im going to have problems, manytimes insurmountable problems in defeating you. Very well geared GF, GWF & Clerics can literally just stand there and laugh at me, ill never kill them and stay perma stealth. I could deviate from the Perma stealth, and throw lashing + lurkers + impact & deal with them, but thats not perma stealth & im a perma stealth rouge.
Thanks again, Nialo!
I have to say that the fact an int based tr build even works says great things about this game. Its such an "out of the box" idea. I really hope other such builds can work for other classes.
Back on topic, anyone who has a real problem with int trs seriously just needs to play one or watch someone play one. They all do similar tricks and once you learn them they are pretty easy.
I lvled my cw with a int tr friend.
Playing with him showed me how this build operates. They love to hide, hit n' run, and pick off the nearly dead.
my cw just hit 60 (so my gear is terrible), but i still manage to kill perma-stealth trs 1v1. First, use the knives direction to guess their location, then charge at them, most dont want you to see them so they will roll, follow them, they will roll again, now that their rolls arw gone follow again, and open up on them. In my **** gear i have to do this twice and glup a pot, but i normally win.
The trick stay on top of them. Rolling breaks their cos build up dmg. Whwn seen they play defensively- use that to keep them on their toes and uncomfortable. With their smug "haha you cant see me" advantage taken away they nearly all run or die.
If everyone would just get over their initial panic when getting hit from stealth, they would be able to develop some strategy for fighting perma-stealth trs.
Exactly what I was talking about just a page back, intelligent players are a nightmare.
Yup, this pretty much shows how out of hand the stealth-ranged meta is for rogues.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
Also, we are talking about the guy (INTRogue) who may play the stealth rogue build better than most anyone, at least in the top 1%... again -- player skill matters.
The last video norn linked showed a rogue just about die. He narrowly escapes... which is more from luck than anything else as far as I could tell. That was the proof nornsavant used to make the point about stealth being an invincibility cloak? We watch a rogue nearly bite it, and we are meant to believe that stealth makes us immune to death? Hardly.
As I said before, norn raised some interesting points, but his analysis comes from a place of prejudice, and will always be flawed. The theorem that Stealth = Godhood has been disproven repeatedly. Don't take the rogues' words for it -- look at the posts from other classes just in this thread alone who have concurred.
CWs never escape, they die. All the time, fast and violently. Hope this game chokes on rogues.
Yup, some of them show that with better gear its even more out of hand.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
This is what I'd like to call rational thinking. You're never going to convince the irrational otherwise though.
The skill cap for any class in this game is ridiculously low, so making an argument "it's INTRogue" does not negate the fact of what a rogue is capable of doing.
The last video norn linked showed a rogue just about to die. He narrowly ESCAPES... Key word there... Whether it was by luck or not. He was showing what the stealth mechanic allows the rogue to do that no other class is capable of.
As for claiming norn is some how prejudice and his views are flawed, is awfully prejudicial yourself. What relevant facts is he somehow missing in this biasedly opinionated case we're arguing over? He never once claimed that stealth was "Godhood". He has merely pointed out what the stealth mechanic allows a rogue to do that no other class is capable of doing and added video evidence showing it and asked you to somehow disprove it. But you can't because all you can do is deflect towards gear and enchants and folks that share your opinion.
And the CW's triple teleport (dodge) or the GWF's sprint doesn't allow them to escape? :-/
You can whine about how CoS only has 12 shots and does little damage and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, being outside your stealth danger zone while dealing damage is what makes people say its OP. My TR without any tenebrous enchantments NOR debuffs can bring down an average-good geared CW/TR/DC from 100% to 50-0% with just 13-14 hits of CoS (charge cooldown is roughly 4 seconds). My CW can never hope to achieve that kind of damage without debuffing the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of my target (assailing force COI/double ROE). Per hit damage of CoS on my TR is pretty much double that of my CW's magic missiles damage, and my TR only has 2.1k power or so, compared to my CW's 3.2k.
Stealth is also the reason why I was able to go 17~ kills 0 deaths top spot on gauntgyrm PVP while solo capping many enemy caps without issue, as well as escaping near-death situations on numerous occassions. I could sort-of do that on my GWF if I don't have too many people focusing me so that I would live and run to a potion, but on my CW there was literally no chance for escaping any type of actual situation. Much like CWs, I definitely don't see how a GF or DC would be able to escape from 5-10 people ganging up on them. But TRs do that with ease, thanks to the handy thing called stealth.
Then just a few days ago, I soloed about 40% of the T1 boss on my TR (the rest of the party wiped) thanks once again to stealth. Achieved without an INT build nor any recovery, solely gauntgrym pvp set and stealth feat. It was also very hilarious how TRs kept bring up the excusing of how they were "nerfed" during the balance patch, where in fact the only real thing that got nerfed was the SE daily. Power was improved to give TR encounters more damage, yet SE getting the nerf bat = TR got nerfed as a whole? Really now.
I correctly labeled Norn as prejudiced against stealth due to the fact that all the facts, taken in context, quite clearly show that stealth is NOT an "easy trump" vs. all other class abilities. The relevant facts that are missing are everything else that can easily be found all over the forums concerning this topic, including many posts just in this particular thread. Therefore, I inferred that he was arguing from a pre-decided outcome that he wanted to generate, rather then letting the facts speak for themselves. It is a very common thing to do -- to have an idea of what you want to believe, and then only "seeing" the evidence that supports your belief while ignoring the evidence that does not.
I did not ignore the videos. What I saw was a top-notch player in top-notch gear doing quite well for himself. I saw a rogue narrowly escape being pwned = rogues are not invulnerable and can get their butts kicked/chased off. You and several others interpreted what they saw differently from me, because there is a pre-determined narrative you are trying to craft here -- you are trying to manipulate, rather than illuminate. Which is pretty basic human nature, so I can understand that.
I knew from the start that a thread titled in such a way as this one would be a magnet for exactly what it hopes to dispel. I also know that I am NOT going to change the minds of anyone who has already thoroughly decided what they want to believe on this matter. This thread exists to shed some light on stealth and its mechanics for the newer folks who just don't know much about it and come to the forums -- perhaps after a bad match or ten -- and want to learn more. It can also be linked to from other threads that are started by the frustrated people who are emotional and could use a kinder response in their newly minted "nerf rogues" thread than "L2P" and "you suck".
Addendum: I hope it's clear by now that I continue to indulge your posts with responses because it gives me an opportunity to clarify on other posts that I and others have made... for the benefit of those who are not quite decided in this issue. When you run out of ammo -- and you will -- I will certainly miss my newest best friend on the forums.
Which is what the tab button is all about. Only the CW has 4 encounter abilities active. Only the GF can block damage. Every class can do something that no other class is capable of.
I think the point he was trying to make is that stealth makes the rogue "unkillable"... which, taken at face value, is absurd. Are they more difficult to kill when they run away? Yes, simply from being harder to target... unless they are out of stealth and then it's game over. As has been mentioned numerous times all over the forums, a rogue without stealth is at a severe disadvantage.
In fact, I bet a case could be made to show that the rogue class more than any other is reliant upon its tab ability for survival. Let's take a match wherein nobody can use their tab... who is the dead meat?
In that case, CW would own everyone. And rogues will be at the bottom of the food chain. Why? Rogues have no effective gap closer like GF or GWF, lower defense, and less hp than both. CW can CC from 80' away then GG.
Thanks, yramrag, and I'd like to reiterate to my fellow rogues that the part above I quoted you is relevant to the discussion here.
We are all of us, I believe, a little bit guilty of that schadenfreude (some of us more than others), and one of the reasons that I made this thread was to give us all a tool in our forum arsenal that could both dispel the hysteria and act as valid response to the nerf threads.
Let's face it... stealth gives us a psychological edge in PVP. It is confounding and frustrating for players to try to fight something that they cannot see, and the natural response to it is not to sit back and consider alternatives, but to cry foul play and let that emotional negativity make their decisions for them. Thus, they come here to the forums and complain that it is too much.
Anyone with any sense of empathy at all can identify with that. What absolutely does not help anything at all is to spout "L2P" and "you suck" to these players. I'm not going to name names, but you know who you are out there. Please please please stop that. It is not clever or amusing in any way to just be disrespectful like that, and it reflects badly on our TR community as a whole. Every "you suck, L2P" comment drags us all down.
I understand it, rogues... we get so much flak about this and it gets very old after a while. It seems that no matter how much you try to help there is always going to be another nerf thread -- more QQ. What I am begging of you guys is this: do not feed the hype with L2P. Point them here. Be the bigger better person about this. It is so easy to just copypaste a link and know that you are in the right without having to be a jerk to somebody who may be having a bad day and is frustrated.
It takes two to tango, guys... when enough of us get in the habit of pointing the QQers here instead of verbally abusing them, then things will slowly change. The hysteria will die down. People will learn. The nerf threads will slow to a trickle and all but die away. All I'm asking of you guys is to give it a try, okay?
This is so true. Every MMO I have played that has a rogue class with stealth (e.g., Guild Wars 2, Runes of Magic) has cause people to go berserk, and usually it all boils down to learn2play issues, and learning how to adjust and counter stealth. In Guild Wars 2 the Thief's (rogue) stealth mechanism is even more restrictive and yet you see people QQ-ing in forum about it.
I think you're right, and there's a population of players that adjust quickly to these type of obstacles in their pvp success, and there's those that have a harder time.
I for instance, I gravitate towards setting up comfortable keybinds, and always the same "spell" (or at least similar) bound to the same key. I despise changing them because it always translates into tons of mistakes in the upcoming matches, and it lasts a while. In Neverwinter, you will be punished for this type of inflexibility. Not every match is the same, and your "loadout" should reflect the best set of skills for the match type and your desired targets, and then adjusted based on success.
And its not like we're managing 30 keybinds, and two of them are passives. So this game has a shift in the type of "skill" it rewards. It's not a twitchy game, not if I can play it. It rewards things like preparation, research, and tactical awareness. If a rogue wants to chase me all over the map, she's already dead, I'm not going to get killed in a spot where she can just walk away unscathed. There's no twitchy skill to that, you just have to be aware of your surroundings and extremely petty.
Also, what cannot be ignored is the teamwork factor. All other things being equal, those who have good teammates that work together well are going to have an easier time of it than those who don't -- no matter what class.
Good post, marla!