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Stealth FAQ vs. misconceptions and hysteria
l0th4ri0
Member Posts: 589 Arc User
Hello, guys!
In order to maybe cut down on some of the hysterics and theatrics that are piling up in the forums about stealth and rogues, I thought I'd start a thread that has a no-nonsense approach to the basics of how stealth works, what it is capable of, what its weaknesses are, and so on.
1. What is stealth? Stealth is one of the main class features of the trickster rogue class that is gained automatically at level 10. It is similar to a GWF gaining Unstoppable or a CW able to use his mastery slot for an extra encounter power. It has a bar/timer, and lasts for exactly 5 seconds unless the rogue spends feat points to extend its duration to a maximum of 6 seconds. While in stealth, most PVE mobs will ignore the TR, although there are some notable exceptions to this, such as Intellect Devourers or the Gloomwraith Witches. In PVP, the rogue will be all but invisible at long ranges, and difficult to target, but at close ranges, a silhouette is visible to any player facing him.
* When NOT in stealth mode, the stealth timer will slowly regenerate itself -- as long as the rogue is not taking damage. Damage suffered by the rogue is applied to the stealth timer as well. The only time that stealth mode can be activated is when the stealth timer is completely full, and once it is full, the timer will not take any more damage until stealth mode is activated and it starts sinking towards empty all on its own. Stealth ends when the bar is empty... in 5 or 6 seconds.
2. 6 seconds? That can't be right! What about the permastealth thing I've heard about? Aside from that max of 6 seconds, the TR also has a number of skills and other feats and gear that can extend the duration of his stealth -- in extreme cases -- nearly indefinitely, as long as he has a target to attack.
* The first of these skills is gained at level 15 and is called Bait and Switch. When BnS is used during stealth mode, it automatically refills the timer, resetting it to full. If it is used outside of stealth mode, it does not have an effect on the stealth timer at all.
* There are feats in the Heroic side that enable a small extension of stealth (10% max) when the rogue dodges.
* An At-Will power called Gloaming Cut (level 35) extends the timer by 25% when a killing blow is struck upon an enemy with it. This can be further enhanced with paragon feats to also allow a 10% extension per hit of Gloaming Cut.
* A class feature gained at level 50 called Invisible Infiltrator allows a refill of the stealth meter after using any daily power.
* Another encounter called Shadow Strike (level 45) refills the stealth bar in a similar fashion to the Bait and Switch power, although it will refill the bar regardless of whether or not the rogue is currently stealthed.
* Lastly, a Daily power called Lurker's Assault (level 10) can be used to greatly extend the stealth meter. Lurker's Assault is a "mode" power with a 10 second duration, and while it is active, the stealth bar is regenerated very quickly.
* The top-end PVP gear for the rogue class passively extends stealth an additional 20% or 25%, depending on what exactly is equipped.
3. What can a rogue do while stealthed? A rogue in stealth mode can use At-will powers freely. If an encounter power is used, it consumes a great deal of the stealth bar, effectively cancelling stealth except in cases where Lurker's Assault is regenerating it fast enough to compensate.
4. Does the rogue gain any special immunity to anything while stealthed? NO.
* While in stealth, the Rogue is not immune to any attack, nor does he gain any special bonuses to dodge or deflect, although there are feats and a class feature that can raise running speed and/or damage resistance while in stealth.
* However, there is an encounter power called Impossible to Catch (level 30) that does give large bonuses to deflect, and if used during stealth will grant immunity to nearly anything for 5 seconds. Unfortunately, similar to other encounter powers, using it while in stealth will cancel stealth mode unless Lurker's Assault is already activated and there is enough of the stealth meter remaining.
5. What are the downsides to stealth? Does it have any vulnerabilities? YES.
* Remember that during stealth, the meter is constantly ticking down to zero... the most basic way that stealth ends is due to time passing. And after the bar is empty, only waiting -- or the several skills mentioned above -- can refill it.
* While in stealth, the stealth bar is vulnerable to attack. Any damage taken by the rogue is taken by the stealth meter as well. When the stealth bar is gone, stealth ends -- similar to the GF block meter. To counteract this, a rogue can slot the Tenacious Concealment class feature to reduce the damage to his stealth meter by up to 90%, thus making himself far less vulnerable to stealth loss than rogues who do not use it.
* It should be noted that Lurker's Assault mode is vulnerable as well, and can be easily cancelled by stuns and other control powers... essentially making it one of the only Daily Powers in the game that can be cancelled by an enemy.
6. How do I defend myself against an invisible opponent in PVP? These guys are chucking knives at me! The most obvious answer is to MOVE. The reason that stealth rogues keep their distance and throw knives is due to the fact that stealth is not more diminished by At-will powers compared to an encounter power, and the Cloud of Steel power allows them to remain at a safer range while still dealing damage.
* If a dodge/slide/block/teleport is used, it breaks the chain of knives, and the rogue will have to re-acquire you as a target to continue. The knives only have 12 charges, and regenerate slowly (1 per 3 seconds recharge)... it is more of a softening and harassing tool than anything to kill with, unless the rogue has a very high gearscore and very powerful enchantments. If you are getting hit by the knives, it is important to break the chain as soon as possible, as the first few daggers will do only minor damage that grows and grows as each subsequent dagger in the chain hits. Note that the rogue tossing the knives is rooted to the spot while he is throwing the chain out, and anything that makes him want to move (like a charging GWF, for example!) will interrupt the chain as well.
* Also, it should be noted that rogues who are in stealth are still very able to get effects such as Mark, Conduit of Ice, etc. applied to them. While the affected rogue is within the player's target reticle's cone, it can be easier to spot the rogue as he will be more than just a dim silhouette.
* Be aware that many rogues in PVP will jump around all over the place to confound attempts by their enemies to spot them or target them. Remember that your AoE attacks will hit them regardless of whether or not they are airborne or caught flat-footed.
* If you think a rogue is running low on stealth and are trying to hunt him down near the tower, check near the stairs in Hotenow or by the pillars in Riverscar. Those are popular places for a rogue to hide.
In order to maybe cut down on some of the hysterics and theatrics that are piling up in the forums about stealth and rogues, I thought I'd start a thread that has a no-nonsense approach to the basics of how stealth works, what it is capable of, what its weaknesses are, and so on.
1. What is stealth? Stealth is one of the main class features of the trickster rogue class that is gained automatically at level 10. It is similar to a GWF gaining Unstoppable or a CW able to use his mastery slot for an extra encounter power. It has a bar/timer, and lasts for exactly 5 seconds unless the rogue spends feat points to extend its duration to a maximum of 6 seconds. While in stealth, most PVE mobs will ignore the TR, although there are some notable exceptions to this, such as Intellect Devourers or the Gloomwraith Witches. In PVP, the rogue will be all but invisible at long ranges, and difficult to target, but at close ranges, a silhouette is visible to any player facing him.
* When NOT in stealth mode, the stealth timer will slowly regenerate itself -- as long as the rogue is not taking damage. Damage suffered by the rogue is applied to the stealth timer as well. The only time that stealth mode can be activated is when the stealth timer is completely full, and once it is full, the timer will not take any more damage until stealth mode is activated and it starts sinking towards empty all on its own. Stealth ends when the bar is empty... in 5 or 6 seconds.
2. 6 seconds? That can't be right! What about the permastealth thing I've heard about? Aside from that max of 6 seconds, the TR also has a number of skills and other feats and gear that can extend the duration of his stealth -- in extreme cases -- nearly indefinitely, as long as he has a target to attack.
* The first of these skills is gained at level 15 and is called Bait and Switch. When BnS is used during stealth mode, it automatically refills the timer, resetting it to full. If it is used outside of stealth mode, it does not have an effect on the stealth timer at all.
* There are feats in the Heroic side that enable a small extension of stealth (10% max) when the rogue dodges.
* An At-Will power called Gloaming Cut (level 35) extends the timer by 25% when a killing blow is struck upon an enemy with it. This can be further enhanced with paragon feats to also allow a 10% extension per hit of Gloaming Cut.
* A class feature gained at level 50 called Invisible Infiltrator allows a refill of the stealth meter after using any daily power.
* Another encounter called Shadow Strike (level 45) refills the stealth bar in a similar fashion to the Bait and Switch power, although it will refill the bar regardless of whether or not the rogue is currently stealthed.
* Lastly, a Daily power called Lurker's Assault (level 10) can be used to greatly extend the stealth meter. Lurker's Assault is a "mode" power with a 10 second duration, and while it is active, the stealth bar is regenerated very quickly.
* The top-end PVP gear for the rogue class passively extends stealth an additional 20% or 25%, depending on what exactly is equipped.
3. What can a rogue do while stealthed? A rogue in stealth mode can use At-will powers freely. If an encounter power is used, it consumes a great deal of the stealth bar, effectively cancelling stealth except in cases where Lurker's Assault is regenerating it fast enough to compensate.
4. Does the rogue gain any special immunity to anything while stealthed? NO.
* While in stealth, the Rogue is not immune to any attack, nor does he gain any special bonuses to dodge or deflect, although there are feats and a class feature that can raise running speed and/or damage resistance while in stealth.
* However, there is an encounter power called Impossible to Catch (level 30) that does give large bonuses to deflect, and if used during stealth will grant immunity to nearly anything for 5 seconds. Unfortunately, similar to other encounter powers, using it while in stealth will cancel stealth mode unless Lurker's Assault is already activated and there is enough of the stealth meter remaining.
5. What are the downsides to stealth? Does it have any vulnerabilities? YES.
* Remember that during stealth, the meter is constantly ticking down to zero... the most basic way that stealth ends is due to time passing. And after the bar is empty, only waiting -- or the several skills mentioned above -- can refill it.
* While in stealth, the stealth bar is vulnerable to attack. Any damage taken by the rogue is taken by the stealth meter as well. When the stealth bar is gone, stealth ends -- similar to the GF block meter. To counteract this, a rogue can slot the Tenacious Concealment class feature to reduce the damage to his stealth meter by up to 90%, thus making himself far less vulnerable to stealth loss than rogues who do not use it.
* It should be noted that Lurker's Assault mode is vulnerable as well, and can be easily cancelled by stuns and other control powers... essentially making it one of the only Daily Powers in the game that can be cancelled by an enemy.
6. How do I defend myself against an invisible opponent in PVP? These guys are chucking knives at me! The most obvious answer is to MOVE. The reason that stealth rogues keep their distance and throw knives is due to the fact that stealth is not more diminished by At-will powers compared to an encounter power, and the Cloud of Steel power allows them to remain at a safer range while still dealing damage.
* If a dodge/slide/block/teleport is used, it breaks the chain of knives, and the rogue will have to re-acquire you as a target to continue. The knives only have 12 charges, and regenerate slowly (1 per 3 seconds recharge)... it is more of a softening and harassing tool than anything to kill with, unless the rogue has a very high gearscore and very powerful enchantments. If you are getting hit by the knives, it is important to break the chain as soon as possible, as the first few daggers will do only minor damage that grows and grows as each subsequent dagger in the chain hits. Note that the rogue tossing the knives is rooted to the spot while he is throwing the chain out, and anything that makes him want to move (like a charging GWF, for example!) will interrupt the chain as well.
* Also, it should be noted that rogues who are in stealth are still very able to get effects such as Mark, Conduit of Ice, etc. applied to them. While the affected rogue is within the player's target reticle's cone, it can be easier to spot the rogue as he will be more than just a dim silhouette.
* Be aware that many rogues in PVP will jump around all over the place to confound attempts by their enemies to spot them or target them. Remember that your AoE attacks will hit them regardless of whether or not they are airborne or caught flat-footed.
* If you think a rogue is running low on stealth and are trying to hunt him down near the tower, check near the stairs in Hotenow or by the pillars in Riverscar. Those are popular places for a rogue to hide.
Post edited by l0th4ri0 on
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Comments
MMO's work off the same tried and true system.
Rogues> Casters>Warriors>Rogues
It is designed this way for a reason. It prevents everyone from all rolling the same class.
The only people that don't understand that or refuse to accept it, are...
Ego maniac, facetanking ranged classes, whom don't want a counter, and think mages should be all powerful, due to some crappy book they read.
All new MMO forums look the same.
Cloth classes crying about rogue classes and threatening to quit.
The game maker telling them there is no balance problem.
Mages finally getting their way and rogue class is overnerfed.
Rogues play warriors (because ranged is boring as hell). Rogues kick the mages butt's still, even though cloth counters warrior.
Mages crying about warriors.
Warriors overnerfed.
People start to leave the MMO, except the pve people.
Repeats in next game.
No I don't bother playing stealth anymore in MMO's. You are never going to beat the crying mages. They are legion. Just play a mage and kick the HAMSTERHAMSTER out of them. Then they can use lag as an excuse.
Thank you.
And this is where you're wrong, you do not need a very high gear score or powerful enchants to make CoS hit hard. All you need is relatively decent gear and some armor pen. This is why it becomes beyond godly when you actually start introducing BIS stuff, its already way too powerful without it. Getting someone to 10%hp in a few seconds is not softening them up, its just killing them. Yes you can run away but that is basically the same as losing. Your group loses someone, or you have to retreat from a contested point, etc... and the rogue can just switch to another target and finish off his charges while you're retreating.
What it comes down to is this: You're a melee class doing better ranged damage than a CW but you cant be targeted for a significant amount of time. <- OP
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
You are fighting a losing battle. This happens in every MMO. Most little Harry Potter, Raistlin, etc kids, choose the mage class. Hell even in SWTOR they chose the emperor class. Why? They are under the delusion that it will be the most powerful due to lore.
When this illusion is met with hard reality (balance) they campaign until stealth is nerfed.
You are NEVER going to win the message board war with them. They are legion, they are bad, and they actually think they play a "hard class", and that all non mages are "mental midgets" etc.
Just accept it. Even world class tourney players like Reckful gave up on the stealth classes due to this. They moved to warriors, or casters themselves.
I almost always make a mage alt now, just so I can wreck the trash talking Hogwart's at their own class. Stealth? Whether it is rogue, TR, scoundrel/operative, they all get nerfed, and they all get overnerfed. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Most mmo players just enjoy playing the game.
The ones who are on the forum? Are usually bad, with the occasional good player (some good CW's telling the bad ones they are wrong).
IMO TR's are already weaker then GWF (class I play). What will happen though? TR will get nerfed to the ground. Why? Cus it has happened in every single MMO I have played.
Yes Mages are boring. Yes they are almost always the best or top rating viable (due to forums). Just roll an alt one. Beat them at their own game. Enjoy wrecking people. For the other char? Go with a melee class that can tank. They are always top comp viable due to being needed for instances/pve.
Balance doesn't exist in MMO's past the first few months. Players wreck it.
So you would say that CoS is overpowered, then? That can be debated, as it takes multiple chained hits to build up damage stacks, but I can see how BiS could be too much at that point for squishy targets. As jester pointed out, the TR seems to be designed as the foil to the CW. How this was accomplished in Neverwinter, and whether or not it is overboard is certainly a valid point of discussion.
The 3-shot encounter you are wondering about is called Impact Shot. Using it from stealth will give you a free extra charge for a total of 4 shots, but cancels stealth just like any other encounter -- unless Lurker's Assault is active at the time.
Also, every class in the game can interrupt the knife chain with a dodge/block, except the GWF, who must use a Mighty Leap encounter to do so (Mighty Leap acts like a dodge, post-balance patch).
Similar to gctrl, you make a good point about CoS possibly being overboard in terms of damage at the high end. At lower levels/gear, the skill does very little damage, FYI.
EDIT: As an addendum, I'd like to point out that any class with high-end gear and enchants will roll over lesser-equipped foes, and it is not always readily apparent who is equipped with what during a match. When stories are told of a rogue using CoS to nearly one-shot somebody, there must be some sort of context given for the anecdote to have any valid meaning to the discussion.
Keep in mind that the game devs play this game, too. They know the classes and equipment, and what they are capable of. Numbers are not just drawn from a hat in balance decisions, nor are they drawn from forum posts -- they are determined from in-house testing.
If CoS is OP at the high end, then the devs know about it already, similar to how they are more than aware that stealth can be maintained for a long enough time for the cooldowns to expire for certain prolonging encounter powers that were enumerated and discussed in the first post of this thread. In short, permastealth was purposefully built-in to the rogue class beforehand. In certain PVE instances, all that is required for permastealth to happen is for a player to use Gloaming Cut with the feats for it. I have personally maintained a stealth for well over 20 seconds just from using Gloaming Cut... and that's just one at-will power.
Food for thought.
CoS (At-will ranged attack) - I have had a few TR who could kill me quickly and seemingly without effort when I tried to kite away....as a ranged class who lives and dies by running away this can be frustrating. Is it because the skill is OP or just because someone has dropped 1000 dollars into this game like other PWE games I have played, I don't know. I can tell you it isn't very fun....but it might just be because someone cares more about winning and has invested money.
Game balance is not as easy as it seems. I only got to L60 today so I don't have any endgame experience. Can CW's crush other toons with top gear at a distance? I had a great weapon while leveling and I never felt I had nuke potential in PvP. I would assume, if the game is balanced and gear is similar a TR should not be able to stand toe to toe with CW at ranged? Seems like any easy solution would be to make PUG pvp teams based on gear score and stats. This would also eliminate the bots since they don't normally do well.....
CoS without LA and tenebs does little to zero damage to gwf/gf.
And the other fact that complaints about "perma stealth rogues that are immune to everything" involve TR using all 3 encounter slots for immunity(with which he is immune like 1/5 of time and it breaks stealth) and stealth prolongation powers and is only left with at wills.
If CW can't spare one of 4 encounter slots for an appropriate power to counter stealth when facing stealth rogue... But most CW's stack all their bar with single target stuns and then cry when they can't use them.
I have CW and DC and I don't find TR's as threatening as GWF and GF. On CW you can teleport away making you extremely hard to hit with any melee and you break cos buildup. Sure you still take dmg but how else is stealth TR supposed to kill you. It also takes eternity in pvp terms to restock cos back to 12.
What is really broken is tenebs and they should be nerfed to hell then the balance devs made for classes would actually work.
Valiant effort, broseph... but there comes a point where you need to realize you just can't rationalize with the irrational. Besides I'm still leveling my int rogue up to get in on the lawlz! Perhaps when we get enough people to exploit the brokenness it will be tweeked. It is inevitable though.
Again, the devs play this game. They know what classes can do and what they cannot do. Expect a very minor (if any) down-tuning on some end-game enchants, eventually... but probably not.
My advice is to get comfortable with how things are right now, class-balance-wise. The numbers have already been run by the devs... they had their results before we went live. It is useless to post repeatedly about how more nerfs are coming, because they aren't. Bugfixes, yes. But then you have to understand what the difference is between a "bug" and a "design decision".
Thank you for the kind words, bkloes, and I bolded/embiggened the section above in this quote because of its very valid bearing on this discussion.
The F2P/microtransaction model, while being at its heart a more accessible sort of MMO than a dedicated subscriber model, is prone to "unfairnesses" that are not really unfair, when taken in the proper context. We can look at somebody who is geared out in crazy stuff he bought with zen, and say "that is an unfair advantage", and in a way that is correct. But any other player ALSO has the ability to spend real money in order to get that same advantage, and the advantage HAS TO BE PALPABLE... there has to be real worth returned for the money spent.
This is why endgame enchants that are very expensive to attain are NOT going to be nerfed, or if they are, only very slightly. It is the plain and simple (if somewhat ugly) truth of this kind of MMO model: "money talks."
PWE/Cryptic can try to sell the idea that this is not a P2W MMO, but if they do so, they are mistaken. Real money gives very real advantages, and it has to be that way. I personally see nothing wrong with this, as it is not like only certain people's money is accepted and others are turned away. Zen is freely accessible to anyone who is willing to pay for it. The PVE content does not require that anyone pay a single cent. All is right with the world here at Neverwinter.
NICE!
A few additions to your work:
a) Some feats will increase damage a little bit while stealthed. And the damage-resist is an increase in deflect chance.
b) Tenacious Concealment is a Personal Power and will reduce stealthloss from damage up to 90%.
c) TR's are a lot more easy to spot when they have an effect on them (Conduit of Ice, WMS, Mark, Astral Seal....you name it). X does mark the spot.
d) CoS builds up in damage, the first few hits do minimal damage, the last few hit like a truck. It's a very fast attack and personally I think it scales too hard with enchantments and melts normal geared people too quickly. In pre-60 pve and pvp I reckon it's fine.
While not every class has an 'at will' dodge, every class has the ability to reset the CoS timer: block, dodge or sprint away (and come back when one blade missed). And every class has the ability to 'mark' the TR.
Now to the OP part:
Looking at the boards there are now 4 OP classes; GF, GWF, TR, then CW. DC's are said to only be killed. They can't all be the no1 OP class. There are lots of anecdotal stories of people getting one-shotted, stunlocked, bullied and trashed, and lots of people who take that as evidence for a nerf.
I've been looking at pvp videos for a while, and I suggest anyone wanting to learn about other classes check some out too. It sometimes looks like someone get's oneshotted, it's over in seconds. But if you look more closely you may see that the guy getting whacked already had two rays of enfeeblement on him, or other teammembers took some potshots already.
Not saying one-shotting doesn't happen, I am saying that pvp is so fast (and if people don't extend their FOV they'll not have any battlefield awareness) it's too hard to really tell what's going on.
And not knowing what's going on and then call for nerf because you lost, that's not cool.
If anybody else has anything to add, feel free to post it here. Thank you!
- It takes long time to recharge.
- Without tenacious concealment class feature, its meter gets reduced really quickly by CC, and any type of damage, including DoT from weapon enchantments.
Most encounters needs target. Targeting a stealthed TR which is jumping around is nearly impossible. This way the TR will not be damaged most of the time.
And here is the reason:
But I'll also thank you to not sully this thread with your usual diatribe vs. rogues. If you can keep it down to a dull roar, and continue to respond/post without exaggerations that would be fantastic. Understand that this thread is NOT somebody's opinion... only the facts are going to stay here.
Thank you again!
-Shadow Strike is pretty much an exclusive tool for permanent stealth build. I am talking about stealth mechanic in general.
-Most not all. It means you have tools to do so. If you refuse to use it when the situation needs it, it is your fault.
-Right now, PvP has only 1 mode, which is domination which means people have to stand on the platform to capture the node. Stealth rogues are not exception. If they are not on the platform, no domination point to their team. Tactics? Staying inside or at the outline of the circle is not a bad choice.
+This will lure them toward you. Guess what? The platform is quite small and usually the main battlefield with all kind of cc and AoE flying around. So? There will be a very high chance to catch them inside the circle.
+Better? You also get the domination points by doing so. If they refuse to enter the circle? Simple, no point for their team.
+Of course, they could run around the circle to get to you, but this will cost their precious stealth time.
+They can also dodge through the circle to ignore damage and cc but this will make them exposed since they will end up pretty close to you. A quick AoE or a quick teleport will give you huge advantage against the rogue.
Nimble dodge: dodge costs 10% less stamina (20% less stamina while stealthed).
Swifth Footwork: 10% faster stamina regeneration.
With very little strenght you can get 3 rolls which, in turns, are 30% of your stealth meter in less then a couple of second or less and you're basically immune to everything in the meanwhile (rolling makes you basically immune to CC and to most of target-based attacks).
Stealth meter refills in 10 second from 0 to 100%, with ninble dodge you basically start at 30% and you have good chances to gain enough stamina to roll at least once more in the remaining 7 seconds (actually 6).
So basically a rogue has an average of 5 seconds of no stealth/no CC immunities at his worst (i.e. no shadow strike or lurker assault or any other daily + Invisible Infiltrator combo).
Don't know if you deliberately chose to not mention it or you simply don't know it, anyway, just in case, the pillars that are in the middle of the point are los (line of sight) breaker. Just stand behind them until the PBAoE is gone and you're good to go, you don't have to mindlessly roll here and there.
Well this is not a open PvP threat, its all about stealth. So ill explain it in a shorter way:
All classes got encounters which are nearly useless in PvP. All encounters which are not able to stun/stop your enemy are avoided because its all about the longest stunlock. Longer stunlock = higher chance to kill your enemy. The tools you mentioned do not stun anything. The TR will be hit and maybe he will be visible in case that the damage reduced his stealthbar to 0. In case that shadow strike is rdy, the TR will go stealth soon/instantly because he has not been stunned at all. No stunlock=no kill= TR continues.
You should realize now, that these tools are bad! Its possible to get the TR out of stealth but the damage is much lower and there is no stunlock any longer.
Well thats wrong too. perma stealth TRs are killing their target and then they conquer the node.
Well, good TRs are leaving the node area while stealthed because the symbol of the node in combination with the direction of the daggers shows the TRs position clearly. Move around the node and kill your enemy without entering the node area. While doing this, at least 1 player is "bound" to you and he will die. Most times teammates are coming to help. They can conquer the node while you are killing them, but they cant leave the node because you would conquer it. This way a single perma stealth TR is able to bind many players on him which is a huge advantige in PvP.
Kill your enemies and conquer the node after that.
while having nearly unlimited stealth time (perma stealth TR), running around a node doesnt matter at all while you are killing enemies.
This is why each perma stealth TR is not dodging towards enemies while he has CoS charges. After CoS charges are empty, they dodge towards their enemy to finish them by using an encounter or melee at will. If dodging towards the enemy is too dangerous, they are waiting stealthed for CoS charges.
Not a problem at all.
Its all about tactics while playing perma stealth TR. Normal TR builds use stealth to get close to the enemy for killing someone with a huge amount of damage (burst). Perma stealth TRs are using hit and run tactics all the time while beeing in CoS range but as far away from the enemy as possible.
And here is the reason:
Stealth is for surprise attack or scouting, not for free kill drinking a tea.
This is the kind of stuff that this FAQ is intended to dispel.
I (with the aid of several other kind posters) just laid out in a no-nonsense no-BS fashion exactly how stealth works. The FAQ has everything... nothing is left out. And yet, "there is no real counter to stealth".
A single swing of a sword is a counter. Any skill whatsoever that damages/affects in an area is an even easier counter. As utuwer pointed out, you can even use common sense around the point to discern where a stealthed rogue is. They are not immortal, and far from it -- one of the squishiest classes in the game. If you beat them up a little bit, they run off or die.
As for permastealth, I will say it again, and maybe some of you more obstinate ones will listen: look at the long list of skills and abilities that extend stealth or refill the stealth meter. They are right there in the first post of this thread... there is no mystery here, no guesswork. Long stealths were obviously intended by the game designers. OBVIOUSLY. If you think that a permastealth build caught the devs by surprise and they never expected anyone to try it out, then you are very very mistaken. You can get permastealth in PVE just by using an at-will with the 5 feats for it. ONE ABILITY that can be fully feated out by level 39!
I know some of you really really hate stealth mode rogues. I understand it... they can be confounding, and when played skillfully and geared with P2W enchants they are a nightmare. But guess what? ANY CLASS with P2W enchants is a nightmare.
My advice for you guys at this point is to just try to roll with it. The game is what it is. Posting in the forums is not going to cause the devs to reconsider their business model.
I don't take advice from irrational folks, kind sir. But I do appreciate the offer. You might not be keen on how the development process of this game has been going. You see the devs run a lot of the numbers before they implement but they obviously don't run all of them. Otherwise you wouldn't have a soft launch "open beta" for a month and encounter all the bugs and exploits that we did. Release new content at the end of beta (GG) then take it down for a week. It's an on going process and we are basically helping them find or "run" the numbers that add up a bit too high on the balance scale. Obviously the buffs to GWF were not thought through thoroughly enough as I'm sure they will be receiving some tweakage. Much the same as the perma stealth build will be.
You are all more then welcome to keep on with the banter in defense of this currently broken build! I'm coming to join you for some lawlz on my int rogue til the inevitable tweakage comes..
This thread is becoming a bit painful, if people actually were to pick up on the tips here, TR's will get a much harder life.
I haven't mastered multi-quotes yet, so I'll respond to your points this way:
Stealth regenerates relatively slowly, encounters do not change this speed but can give a refill.
Some encounters are useless in pvp, while others are seriously underrated. I've named a few in this thread that work well against TR's.
You need to realize that when the TR moves, CoS is reset and goes back to doing minimal damage. With only 12 charges and a very long cooldown on the recharge, it's simply bad tactics to throw a couple of daggers and then roll in order to throw some more wimpy daggers. When line of sight is broken, CoS resets. And EVERY class has the two feet to move behind a spire.
LOL well I certainly welcome you to the "rogue fold", as it were, although I would advise you to not hold your breath for the nerfs. As it stands now, most players in high-end PVP can deal with permastealth rogues just fine, as they are actually weaker and squishier than non-permastealth rogues... which you will probably discover to your horror after a while of getting PWNed mercilessly by the other classes and other rogues.
At that point, I will not hold you to coming back here to correct all of your previous statements, as the bitter pill of truth will be enough to swallow all on its own.
And yet you indulge adding any of my objective additions about how to counter any of your "counter-stealth" moves (like the pillars LoS breakage to defend a point).
Anyway let's move on. I don't know if you ever tried Sneaky Stabber for real. I have some doubts, because if you ever did you should have noticed that gloaming gut has a 1-1.2s animation. Sneaky Stabber refills your stealth meter by 10% per strike (not per hit) which is about 0.5s more stealth duration while already stealthed (unless you're wearing the PvP set, but it's just a 0.1-0.2s difference with improved cunning sneak maxed).
It would work if you were actually able to kill anyone with gloaming gut but, truth is, it's incredibly hard and mostly due to luck.
This is not even considering the fact that you're in the middle of the fight, i.e. incredibly subject to high AoEs and CC that in turns reduce your stealth even further.
Anyway you won't ever be 100% perma stealth with gloaming gut.
True enough, you can't code against Murphy's Law, players will find the exploitable area's the devs would never have found themselves.
But that doesn't mean anything is 'obviously broken' just because you think it is. Most arguments why stealth is broken are based on false assumptions and misunderstanding. In this post the more friendly TR's attempt to counter these arguments with facts.
Ignoring does facts also don't make a class 'obviously broken'.
If you're serious about going perma-stealth on your TR, I'd really like to know how you're doing, WITH and WITHOUT ubergear.