I'm Executioner...
If u wanna remove stealth or whatever...GO FOR IT bro.....JuSt that i get irritated when ppl want MORE nerf of DAMAGE. SO where's the end? When a TR can't kill ANYONE? WTH....Why is it so many ppl can PLAY quietly and happily? But YOU can't?
EDITE: By the way...i'm not defending THIS (stealth) build....What i don't want is My Executiner MAXED dps build to be affected...cos some **** can't figure out how to find and defeat a stealthed rogue...
I never mentioned anything about nerfing or removing stealth and anybody asking for this is an idiot. The combination of ranged damage + stealth + abilities refreshing stealth + end game gear/enchants is the issue. A simple increase to stealth drain when CoS is used in stealth has been stated and I think would be good.
Some food for thought as far as spec goes for those that might not know the numbers, my executioner spec'd rogue (without improved cunnings 20% more stealth feat) can maintain around 16s of stealth via bait and switch and shadow strike. It takes less the 5 seconds to deplete all 12 CoS charges.
Some will say well run out of range and then I'll say speed swindle (10% run snare+10%speed boost on crit for tr), sneak attack(30%run spd in stealth), twilight adept(+10% to stealth meter on dodge roll) seem to be nice tools for a TR in stealth to counter said recommendation.
The concern is the people that use this build that don't sacrifice much damage and still maintains 16-20s of stealth via encounters and some feats while still holding onto any variation of 3rd encounter and possible daily (which could extend their stealth even longer). Their ability to render 2 classes (CW and DC) virtually useless, on or off points, from them running or dying while suffering little to no damage while in stealth is a bit OP and needs to be addressed and most likely will be.
i love you all gn
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gen24Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2013
This is clearly you crying
GWF'S can pretty much tank anything in pvp against 3 people now that's op.
stealth classes are advertised as high dps...rogues can be killed but they are built to jump strike and run?
just cause several undergeared (and prolly unskilled) whiners write something on the forum, doesnt make it true
Well im not an under geared or unskilled and the perma stealthed build destroys my CW. Tell me apart from dodge away and run away and stay away (if you are able to in time) what else do i do against a rogue i cant see at all.
Just like how BEFORE Shocking execution was the whine right? Now it's stealth. WHAT DO U WANT? To kill a rogue and LAUGH at how easy it was?
Edit: IF you're a CW or a DC....you will feel the full brunt of a rogue. It just makes sense to TAKE OUT the HEALER and the CONTROLLER.
So it goes like this......Oher than gear....you are feeling HURT is because, rogue stealth kill YOU first...you die, but you don't see thr goue (Normally) getting HAMSTER AFTER he kill you. SO you respawn and come back....The dead rogue respawns and comes back too and.....KILLS YOU AGAIN. You're a PRIORITY target....Thats why you feel it and start crying OP.
I wanna see any GF come here crying that a rogue is OP.....
At least you and the other Poster are truthful about how you destroy two other classes
Here is the other post
And please...you're PERFECT scenario...OF course i can kill From stealth with knive throws. PERFECT scenario...me and you in a BOX.
I play a CW and i can tell you that its not that hard to get that position going . I see it time and time again. I also see rogues with ITC... Yay great.
So excellent..... stealthed then cloud of steel pop impossible to catch and frankly its a joke from there. I now see countless rogues doing that and just ignoring the rest of the team and stomping CWs. Kill one move to the next.
People got bent about CWs because we would top the kills because we kill at range. Plenty of those are catching people running away. Plenty were against poorly geared players.plenty were against prepatch GWF. Now its a joke.They went to far which they always do with ranged classes.
A good rogue can dodge my daily and my cc and pop ITC GG.
I swear im going to LMAO when they bring the striker ranged class and the comeback "but we are a striker class" bites you in the butt lololololololololol i doubt i will be playing then
I never mentioned anything about nerfing or removing stealth and anybody asking for this is an idiot. The combination of ranged damage + stealth + abilities refreshing stealth + end game gear/enchants is the issue. A simple increase to stealth drain when CoS is used in stealth has been stated and I think would be good.
It's not good. The class is built around using at-wills in stealth. You absolutely cannot change that unless you drastically change the feat tree. And it also wouldn't make a difference. If a rogue is able to release all his CoS charges while in stealth, then what does it matter if he has stealth remaining or not? Especially since you have skills that instantly refill your stealth bar anyway. So, not only do I disagree with your assertion that a nerf is needed, but the nerf you suggest makes no sense.
Some will say well run out of range and then I'll say speed swindle (10% run snare+10%speed boost on crit for tr), sneak attack(30%run spd in stealth), twilight adept(+10% to stealth meter on dodge roll) seem to be nice tools for a TR in stealth to counter said recommendation.
The second the rogue starts running, he can't throw daggers. That's your time to escape or mount a counter-attack. Unless you're bad and spend all day whining on forums instead of learning the mechanics or your class.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
At least you and the other Poster are truthful about how you destroy two other classes
I play a CW and i can tell you that its not that hard to get that position going . I see it time and time again. I also see rogues with ITC... Yay great.
So excellent..... stealthed then cloud of steel pop impossible to catch and frankly its a joke from there. I now see countless rogues doing that and just ignoring the rest of the team and stomping CWs. Kill one move to the next.
People got bent about CWs because we would top the kills because we kill at range. Plenty of those are catching people running away. Plenty were against poorly geared players.plenty were against prepatch GWF. Now its a joke.They went to far which they always do with ranged classes.
A good rogue can dodge my daily and my cc and pop ITC GG.
I swear im going to LMAO when they bring the striker ranged class and the comeback "but we are a striker class" bites you in the butt lololololololololol i doubt i will be playing then
U play a CW? LOL How did i ALREADY know that....^^
Ok look bro....Channel your irritation to the right source. Instead of calling for a nerf on another class, call for a FIX to yours.
Also let me CORRECT your statement. It's more like "KIll one, RUN AWAY OR DIE, then come back and kill that SAME one, cos it's a PRIORITY target"
Nothing much more to say. Others have said it for me.
You wanna cry somemore. Go ahead. I wonder where was all this crying when CW used to OWN everyone by just casting enfeeblement twice and not even "making an appearance at the fight" Just like from above a stone, or from behind a rock....
Some may say...."how does it feel?" BUT thats not what we talking about......
Remeber. Get them to FIX whatever u want, not eff with other ppl's class.
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
Oh, and don't DEMAND anything, you aren't the king of the world, you are just another ant, like vast majority of us.
"Demanding" anything on the private internet forum usually ends up with warning/ban.
Yes and no. If there is something that is game breaking, bug, mehcanics, you _should_ demand quick sollution, and in this kind of demanding, you get priority, since its a very very important thing [to get fixed].
But I agree sometimes we feel that we are right and we should be more polite.
It's not good. The class is built around using at-wills in stealth. You absolutely cannot change that unless you drastically change the feat tree. And it also wouldn't make a difference. If a rogue is able to release all his CoS charges while in stealth, then what does it matter if he has stealth remaining or not? Especially since you have skills that instantly refill your stealth bar anyway. So, not only do I disagree with your assertion that a nerf is needed, but the nerf you suggest makes no sense.
The second the rogue starts running, he can't throw daggers. That's your time to escape or mount a counter-attack. Unless you're bad and spend all day whining on forums instead of learning the mechanics or your class.
It seems to me you're defending this class up to the point reason doesn't matter much anymore.
So, bluntly, can you honestly say that the state of ranged damage + stealth + abilities refreshing stealth + end game gear/enchants is NOT an issue?
It seems to me you're defending this class up to the point reason doesn't matter much anymore.
So, bluntly, can you honestly say that the state of ranged damage + stealth + abilities refreshing stealth + end game gear/enchants is NOT an issue?
And it seems to be that the majority of the complaints in this thread are the result of ignorance. Ignorance of both how the rogue class operates, and how their own class functions.
No, I don't think there's an issue with the stealth-based class attacking from stealth and being able to refresh stealth. And no I don't think there's a problem with the damage of Cloud of Steel, because I've actually played a rogue, and know how easily they are chewed up by AoE and control abilities. I know how difficult it is to bombarded with ranged attacks while trying to capture a point. Clouds of Steel are an At-Will, and should be an acceptable choice to slot when compared to the damage of Duelist's Fury or Sky Flourish. It has limited charges, less range than the attacks of the actual ranged classes, and really only exists so that your rogue doesn't have to sit in one of those red-rings that reduces your HP to zero in seconds. I do think that gear/enchants is a pretty big problem, but that's what lines PWI pockets and it won't be chased anytime soon. So what will be changed is the mechanics of the class, and that annoys me.
The real issue here is that PvP naturally benefits the single-target DPS class, and people aren't going to be happy until the role of the rogue simply changes to something else.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
Simple....dodge - the more cloud hits you the more damage the next dagger does, within a certain time frame which is about 0.5 - 1 second, so dodge and get some distance. Learn how to play your class for goodness sake, rogues are the least of my worries in end game PVP - GF's/GWF with good build/gear are the new rogues.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It seems to me you're defending this class up to the point reason doesn't matter much anymore.
So, bluntly, can you honestly say that the state of ranged damage + stealth + abilities refreshing stealth + end game gear/enchants is NOT an issue?
I say it's not an issue. The only class I can do serious damage to with stealth/CoS is a CW, and they have three teleports. When I play my CW, I make sure to position myself strategically (a good escape route to a potion). If I get melee rushed, I telly to my melee party members. If I don't have any party members near me, they're either all dead or I'm not playing right.
U play a CW? LOL How did i ALREADY know that....^^
Ok look bro....Channel your irritation to the right source. Instead of calling for a nerf on another class, call for a FIX to yours.
Also let me CORRECT your statement. It's more like "KIll one, RUN AWAY OR DIE, then come back and kill that SAME one, cos it's a PRIORITY target"
Nothing much more to say. Others have said it for me.
You wanna cry somemore. Go ahead. I wonder where was all this crying when CW used to OWN everyone by just casting enfeeblement twice and not even "making an appearance at the fight" Just like from above a stone, or from behind a rock....
Some may say...."how does it feel?" BUT thats not what we talking about......
Remeber. Get them to FIX whatever u want, not eff with other ppl's class.
And your are a rogue fanboi. If you read my earlier posts i stated i was a CW. Casting ray of enfeeb twice to kill somebody you say. You see this is the level of stupidity that pervades these forums. It was never casts twice and death. For a CW its never one shotting ever.
I dont care about rogues damage i didnt care about their prenerfed shocking execution. Couldnt care less if it nailed me becuase i was out of position. Good game.
What is dumb is a that as a cloth wearer we have limited mitigation so a perma stealthed rogue using their "at will" note that their "at will" to burn you down is dumb.
You say run teleport away or run away.
Wow that sounds like so much fun. Pro tip dont engage just run away from the fight, the point, the domination zone you need to cap.
Just run away. Yes sounds like a great game for one party in the contest fanboi.
I never mentioned anything about nerfing or removing stealth and anybody asking for this is an idiot. The combination of ranged damage + stealth + abilities refreshing stealth + end game gear/enchants is the issue. A simple increase to stealth drain when CoS is used in stealth has been stated and I think would be good.
Some food for thought as far as spec goes for those that might not know the numbers, my executioner spec'd rogue (without improved cunnings 20% more stealth feat) can maintain around 16s of stealth via bait and switch and shadow strike. It takes less the 5 seconds to deplete all 12 CoS charges.
Some will say well run out of range and then I'll say speed swindle (10% run snare+10%speed boost on crit for tr), sneak attack(30%run spd in stealth), twilight adept(+10% to stealth meter on dodge roll) seem to be nice tools for a TR in stealth to counter said recommendation.
The concern is the people that use this build that don't sacrifice much damage and still maintains 16-20s of stealth via encounters and some feats while still holding onto any variation of 3rd encounter and possible daily (which could extend their stealth even longer). Their ability to render 2 classes (CW and DC) virtually useless, on or off points, from them running or dying while suffering little to no damage while in stealth is a bit OP and needs to be addressed and most likely will be.
The above 2 posters are correct...However you're forgetting. The charges.
Throw knives.WILL kill mostly if all 12 charges are present.......also, the target has to be pretty much spastic to not run out of range.
I see you guys keep talking about Stealth, prolonging, stealth this stealth that.
To achieve perma stealth......(PERMA, not coming out for awhile) U have to add INT, u have to slot RECOVERY. That severly diminishes your damage. ALSO take into account, to make your stealth last longer you forgo the damage feats pre paragon, and also you pretty much have to go a way other than maximizing dps post paragon.
Granted combat advantage gets a boost...but do you think that can make up for all the damage you lost? Nope.
Skills. To achieve long stealth. You gotta have stealth strike and baitswitch. So your'e left with ONE slot. What's it gonna be? LS or ITC? Thats pretty much your choices......
The issue here is GEAR. Why not you try hitting a wellgeared player from stealth with perma stealth build...See if he "dies so easily"
Of course you would ArseRApe the t1's if you rocking endgame awesomeness......The whines come from the undergeared ppl, or the ppl that thought they just can stand still and WIN everyone just cos they got endgame gear.
Another top post. The way to counter the stealthed COS rogue is to run away.
There's nothing "OP" about the single-target DPS class have high-damage abilities. Cloud of Steelk and Lashing Blade are working as intended. The either have limited charges and a long cooldown, and are essential in PvE for fulling the rogue's role in the game. The role of the rogue in the game is to take down single targets with high hp. This skillset naturally translates well to PvP. Other classes have their own roles. Learn yours and stop complaining about ours.
God this is the worst of all the fanbois
Is OP working as intended GG everyone else.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
And it seems to be that the majority of the complaints in this thread are the result of ignorance. Ignorance of both how the rogue class operates, and how their own class functions.
No, I don't think there's an issue with the stealth-based class attacking from stealth and being able to refresh stealth. And no I don't think there's a problem with the damage of Cloud of Steel, because I've actually played a rogue, and know how easily they are chewed up by AoE and control abilities. I know how difficult it is to bombarded with ranged attacks while trying to capture a point.
Show me on this doll where the bad man touched you. :rolleyes:
Another top post. The way to counter the stealthed COS rogue is to run away.
GG sounds like fun for you.
As a rogue, I'm running away from tons of fights. Mobility is a huge aspect of the class, and that's why we have the best speed bonuses out of each of the classes. I don't cry when I have to run from an unkillable tank. It's part of the game.
I can tell you what's less fun that having to run for unwinnable fights. Being stunned for so long that all your hp is drained and you're killed without landing a single shot. But I accept it because rogue's defense is supposed to be paltry.
Some people just refuse to accept the limitations of their class.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
You have no rebuttal to my points, but you do have baseless insults.
This just proves that these threads should be ignored. These people don't have any actual arguments. It all boils down to, "I died, and now I'm mad." Otherwise they could provide some sort of counter-argument besides ad hominem attacks.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If you don't have a rebuttal to my points just admit that you're wrong, and move along.
Rebuttal to what? The only point you have made is that regardless of all the facts that are written out for you plain as day, you're adamant in your mindset that there's nothing wrong with the build in question. Everyone else is ignorant, not you. I mean you've played a rogue and know and have experienced all the hardships. Where as all the folks that say they've played rogues and that don't agree with you are just wrong, amirite?
What I can deduce from all of your posts is that this current build is your crutch and that if they take it away you'll go back to being the mediocre player that you are. In other words "the bad men will touch you again." :rolleyes:
Rebuttal to what? The only point you have made is that regardless of all the facts that are written out for you plain as day, you're adamant in your mindset that there's nothing wrong with the build in question. Everyone else is ignorant, not you. I mean you've played a rogue and know and have experienced all the hardships. Where as all the folks that say they've played rogues and that don't agree with you are just wrong, amirite?
What I can deduce from all of your posts is that this current build is your crutch and that if they take it away you'll go back to being the mediocre player that you are. In other words "the bad men will touch you again." :rolleyes:
More insults. Please save me the trouble of reporting you, and just leave the thread if you cannot behave in a mature manner.
I've made several points in this thread and others, you've just made it clear than you have no intention of addressing them. And you continue to show your lack of an argument with your baseless speculation and accusations. Your deduction is wrong and pointless. My rogue is an Executioner, not a permanent-stealth. I rarely use Clouds of Steel, and when I do, it's usually because there's an AoE surrounding a capture node and there's no other way for me to dish out damage until it evaporates.
At the end of the day, you're going to accuse anyone who disagrees with you as being a "fanboy" or "mediocre player who needs the build", so what's the point of this conversation? What facts have you brought up? What rebuttals to my claims have you offered? You've provided nothing to argue against except insults and accusations.
Here are some actual facts: The vast majority of these complaints are from people who don't know what they're talking about. They are clearly describing encounters with Executioner rogues using stealth, and not the perma-stealth build they are criticizing. So yes, they are ignorant of the class and how it works. Otherwise they would know that the damage output for perma-stealth builds are extremely low, because the build prioritising recovery and INT over power/armor pen and crit. The only damage-dealing feats the build has, are all relating to dealing damage within stealth and at-wills. Lashing blade is useless in this build, as our Dailies such as Shocking Execution and Bloodbath. The only time if which this build does acceptable damage is with At-Will attacks, and it still isn't enough to provide the types of damage you people are describing. What's actually happening is that you're simply being killed in stealth by Executioner rogues spamming CoS. And I do not personally see this as a problem. CoS has limited range and limited charges when compared to the proper ranged attack of the CW, and this is the balance of it. What is the point of making it less damaging on top of that? The main problem people seem to have is that it's used in stealth, which is nothing but whining, because this class is built around using At-Wills in stealth. In the end, these complaints are nothing more than people being upset that the class is working as intended. Cloud of Steel is about half as powerful as Sky Flourish, they both can be used in stealth without canceling it, and they both benefit from the same feats. The only difference is that it's a ranged attack, which rogues sorely need, considering they don't have the defensive capabilities to withstand AoE/stuns for very long.
No, I don't think there's a problem with CoS as it works currently. That's because I've played the rogue to completion several times, and understand the ins and outs of the class. I know it's limitations and strengths, and I know how to best utilize it to accomplish its role in PvE and PvP. The rogue is single-target DPS, and all of his attacks should be high-damaging. I'm not disagreeing with you because I lack skill or knowledge. I'm disagreeing with you because what you're saying simply isn't true or meaningful.
Don't bother responding. I already know, "blah blah man touched you, blah blah rogue fanboy", I'm not interested. I'd be happy to hear any salient arguments from other people in this thread that are actually interested in discussing this intelligently.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
And it seems to be that the majority of the complaints in this thread are the result of ignorance. Ignorance of both how the rogue class operates, and how their own class functions.
No, I don't think there's an issue with the stealth-based class attacking from stealth and being able to refresh stealth. And no I don't think there's a problem with the damage of Cloud of Steel, because I've actually played a rogue, and know how easily they are chewed up by AoE and control abilities. I know how difficult it is to bombarded with ranged attacks while trying to capture a point. Clouds of Steel are an At-Will, and should be an acceptable choice to slot when compared to the damage of Duelist's Fury or Sky Flourish. It has limited charges, less range than the attacks of the actual ranged classes, and really only exists so that your rogue doesn't have to sit in one of those red-rings that reduces your HP to zero in seconds. I do think that gear/enchants is a pretty big problem, but that's what lines PWI pockets and it won't be chased anytime soon. So what will be changed is the mechanics of the class, and that annoys me.
The real issue here is that PvP naturally benefits the single-target DPS class, and people aren't going to be happy until the role of the rogue simply changes to something else.
I've got a TR to 60, two actually. And I'm not here to pick a fight with you, I'm also not here to try and get TR's nerfed into oblivion.
I know all about the reasoning/excuse of being the only true striker and therefor TR's are supposed to do lots of damage 1v1, and that's not the point.
The point is what you are making as well, that the combination of how CoS works together with (semi) perma-stealth coupled with those runes is much too powerful. There is no counter that can deal with this amount of damage.
I'm definitely not saying to take it all away, hells, I love my TR and I don't want him gimped. But something is seriously wrong with this combination and I think it can be balanced without gimping (or loss of cryptic's revenue)
Thread highlights (from reading the posts):
People do not wish for a nerf but a proper counter to perma-sealth builds.
Atleast that's what I am understanding from those posts
I think discussions like this get out of hand when people suggest their 'one and only fix' for a problem they themselves identified.
The problem is not perma-stealth. If TR's were just perma-stealthing all over the place, and staying hidden, things would be fine. It's perma-stealth and massive procced damage on CoS that is unbalancing.
But the discussion gets a bit lively when blanket statements are dropped ...
"Dear Devs, Scissors are fine, but Paper is really OP, please nerf. Regards, Rock."
Thread highlights (from reading the posts):
People do not wish for a nerf but a proper counter to perma-sealth builds.
Atleast that's what I am understanding from those posts
No, this thread is about nerfs. A thread asking for counters would be purely related to gameplay, and would not be begging for "fixes" or dev attention. The thread is also a mess because people cannot wrap their heads around the idea that all rogues are not the same. People are not properly identifying the type of rogue that is killing them, and this is creating this image of your average rogue doing things it simply can't.
I've got a TR to 60, two actually. And I'm not here to pick a fight with you, I'm also not here to try and get TR's nerfed into oblivion.
I know all about the reasoning/excuse of being the only true striker and therefor TR's are supposed to do lots of damage 1v1, and that's not the point.
The point is what you are making as well, that the combination of how CoS works together with (semi) perma-stealth coupled with those runes is much too powerful. There is no counter that can deal with this amount of damage.
I'm definitely not saying to take it all away, hells, I love my TR and I don't want him gimped. But something is seriously wrong with this combination and I think it can be balanced without gimping (or loss of cryptic's revenue)
I suppose what's really bothering me is people judging every rogue by what a small minority can do. Not every rogue has these game-breaking enchantments that apparently make CoS some sort of guaranteed instant kill. Not every rogue spends their feat points making At-Wills as strong as possible or stealth last as long as possible. These things all make much more of a difference than people are giving them credit for. My executioner has a pretty crappy stealth duration, for instance. His CoS hits hard, sure, but I'd use Sky Flourish over it in almost any situation because it does more damage. I never try and burn down someone's health down from 100 with CoS, because it simply wouldn't work. I am aware that I could spec and gear in a way that would theoretically make it possible, but that's not my playstyle. I honestly feel as through I can do the same things this thread is complaining about, except for in melee range.
Regardless, I'm trying to figure out how to "nerf" CoS without completely breaking it. Suggestions such as having it break stealth or require charging up just seem silly, and I have to wonder how effective a base damage reduction would be considering how easy it is to warp to an enemy and unleash a powerful encounter to finish them off. I just don't want to see CoS become useless, since I still believe a ranged attack is necessary for a class as squishy as us. Literally every other At-Will is useless in PvP, and I question what I'm supposed to do against Control Wizards without a ranged attack being powerful enough to be viable.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
I suppose what's really bothering me is people judging every rogue by what a small minority can do. Not every rogue has these game-breaking enchantments that apparently make CoS some sort of guaranteed instant kill. Not every rogue spends their feat points making At-Wills as strong as possible or stealth last as long as possible. These things all make much more of a difference than people are giving them credit for. My executioner has a pretty crappy stealth duration, for instance. His CoS hits hard, sure, but I'd use Sky Flourish over it in almost any situation because it does more damage. I never try and burn down someone's health down from 100 with CoS, because it simply wouldn't work. I am aware that I could spec and gear in a way that would theoretically make it possible, but that's not my playstyle. I honestly feel as through I can do the same things this thread is complaining about, except for in melee range.
Regardless, I'm trying to figure out how to "nerf" CoS without completely breaking it. Suggestions such as having it break stealth or require charging up just seem silly, and I have to wonder how effective a base damage reduction would be considering how easy it is to warp to an enemy and unleash a powerful encounter to finish them off. I just don't want to see CoS become useless, since I still believe a ranged attack is necessary for a class as squishy as us. Literally every other At-Will is useless in PvP, and I question what I'm supposed to do against Control Wizards without a ranged attack being powerful enough to be viable.
I fully agree with the blanket nerfs being ridiculous and a lot would have been sorted if people learned more about their own but also that other class. That's why I rolled other classes, got a CW to 60 and the other three are halfway.
That's also how I'm learning to counter other TR's, by playing one of it's favorite snacks But I'm also noticing that CoS while stealthed is unlike any other at-will combination any other class has. It's almost as good as invulnerability, but with the benefit of invisibility. At best there are damage avoiding powers, but they only last a few seconds and you're still visible. Even melee while stealthed doesn't behave like that.
I think if CoS does damage, the TR should be as visible to the other player the same way as when he's hitting from melee range.
I don't know damage-wise, I think basically the damage is fine, just that it scales way out of proportion with certain gear. That could be more fine-tuned without affecting base mechanics or general gear too much.
I've seen posts of people who make good use of all the at-wills, including gloam cut, and imho Duelist Fury should've actually been the ideal At-Will for a build that benefits from the longest stealth. I don't want CoS gone, I do want it tweaked so that it stays viable but can't be overcharged into a Deathstar anymore.
What's your point? What would you like to see changed?
People stop QQ'ing? Especially about stealth. Without it rogues are squishy as heck. And no I don't have a perma stealth rogue.
I would eat a CoS nerf for my rogue if they gave them something to use in melee in PVP, you cant really use DF unless they just happen to sit there. CoS is about their only efficient damage they can lay down, and stealth is easily countered.
Rogues are not meant to sit there and go toe to toe, and that's what people want. All their abilities and damage are just about tied to stealth and people want that nerfed. After all QQ about rogues and rogues getting hit with a huge nerf bat across the board.
Comments
I never mentioned anything about nerfing or removing stealth and anybody asking for this is an idiot. The combination of ranged damage + stealth + abilities refreshing stealth + end game gear/enchants is the issue. A simple increase to stealth drain when CoS is used in stealth has been stated and I think would be good.
Some food for thought as far as spec goes for those that might not know the numbers, my executioner spec'd rogue (without improved cunnings 20% more stealth feat) can maintain around 16s of stealth via bait and switch and shadow strike. It takes less the 5 seconds to deplete all 12 CoS charges.
Some will say well run out of range and then I'll say speed swindle (10% run snare+10%speed boost on crit for tr), sneak attack(30%run spd in stealth), twilight adept(+10% to stealth meter on dodge roll) seem to be nice tools for a TR in stealth to counter said recommendation.
The concern is the people that use this build that don't sacrifice much damage and still maintains 16-20s of stealth via encounters and some feats while still holding onto any variation of 3rd encounter and possible daily (which could extend their stealth even longer). Their ability to render 2 classes (CW and DC) virtually useless, on or off points, from them running or dying while suffering little to no damage while in stealth is a bit OP and needs to be addressed and most likely will be.
i love you all gn
GWF'S can pretty much tank anything in pvp against 3 people now that's op.
stealth classes are advertised as high dps...rogues can be killed but they are built to jump strike and run?
Well im not an under geared or unskilled and the perma stealthed build destroys my CW. Tell me apart from dodge away and run away and stay away (if you are able to in time) what else do i do against a rogue i cant see at all.
At least you and the other Poster are truthful about how you destroy two other classes
Here is the other post
And please...you're PERFECT scenario...OF course i can kill From stealth with knive throws. PERFECT scenario...me and you in a BOX.
I play a CW and i can tell you that its not that hard to get that position going . I see it time and time again. I also see rogues with ITC... Yay great.
So excellent..... stealthed then cloud of steel pop impossible to catch and frankly its a joke from there. I now see countless rogues doing that and just ignoring the rest of the team and stomping CWs. Kill one move to the next.
People got bent about CWs because we would top the kills because we kill at range. Plenty of those are catching people running away. Plenty were against poorly geared players.plenty were against prepatch GWF. Now its a joke.They went to far which they always do with ranged classes.
A good rogue can dodge my daily and my cc and pop ITC GG.
I swear im going to LMAO when they bring the striker ranged class and the comeback "but we are a striker class" bites you in the butt lololololololololol i doubt i will be playing then
It's not good. The class is built around using at-wills in stealth. You absolutely cannot change that unless you drastically change the feat tree. And it also wouldn't make a difference. If a rogue is able to release all his CoS charges while in stealth, then what does it matter if he has stealth remaining or not? Especially since you have skills that instantly refill your stealth bar anyway. So, not only do I disagree with your assertion that a nerf is needed, but the nerf you suggest makes no sense.
The second the rogue starts running, he can't throw daggers. That's your time to escape or mount a counter-attack. Unless you're bad and spend all day whining on forums instead of learning the mechanics or your class.
U play a CW? LOL How did i ALREADY know that....^^
Ok look bro....Channel your irritation to the right source. Instead of calling for a nerf on another class, call for a FIX to yours.
Also let me CORRECT your statement. It's more like "KIll one, RUN AWAY OR DIE, then come back and kill that SAME one, cos it's a PRIORITY target"
Nothing much more to say. Others have said it for me.
You wanna cry somemore. Go ahead. I wonder where was all this crying when CW used to OWN everyone by just casting enfeeblement twice and not even "making an appearance at the fight" Just like from above a stone, or from behind a rock....
Some may say...."how does it feel?" BUT thats not what we talking about......
Remeber. Get them to FIX whatever u want, not eff with other ppl's class.
Yes and no. If there is something that is game breaking, bug, mehcanics, you _should_ demand quick sollution, and in this kind of demanding, you get priority, since its a very very important thing [to get fixed].
But I agree sometimes we feel that we are right and we should be more polite.
It seems to me you're defending this class up to the point reason doesn't matter much anymore.
So, bluntly, can you honestly say that the state of ranged damage + stealth + abilities refreshing stealth + end game gear/enchants is NOT an issue?
And it seems to be that the majority of the complaints in this thread are the result of ignorance. Ignorance of both how the rogue class operates, and how their own class functions.
No, I don't think there's an issue with the stealth-based class attacking from stealth and being able to refresh stealth. And no I don't think there's a problem with the damage of Cloud of Steel, because I've actually played a rogue, and know how easily they are chewed up by AoE and control abilities. I know how difficult it is to bombarded with ranged attacks while trying to capture a point. Clouds of Steel are an At-Will, and should be an acceptable choice to slot when compared to the damage of Duelist's Fury or Sky Flourish. It has limited charges, less range than the attacks of the actual ranged classes, and really only exists so that your rogue doesn't have to sit in one of those red-rings that reduces your HP to zero in seconds. I do think that gear/enchants is a pretty big problem, but that's what lines PWI pockets and it won't be chased anytime soon. So what will be changed is the mechanics of the class, and that annoys me.
The real issue here is that PvP naturally benefits the single-target DPS class, and people aren't going to be happy until the role of the rogue simply changes to something else.
I say it's not an issue. The only class I can do serious damage to with stealth/CoS is a CW, and they have three teleports. When I play my CW, I make sure to position myself strategically (a good escape route to a potion). If I get melee rushed, I telly to my melee party members. If I don't have any party members near me, they're either all dead or I'm not playing right.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
And your are a rogue fanboi. If you read my earlier posts i stated i was a CW. Casting ray of enfeeb twice to kill somebody you say. You see this is the level of stupidity that pervades these forums. It was never casts twice and death. For a CW its never one shotting ever.
I dont care about rogues damage i didnt care about their prenerfed shocking execution. Couldnt care less if it nailed me becuase i was out of position. Good game.
What is dumb is a that as a cloth wearer we have limited mitigation so a perma stealthed rogue using their "at will" note that their "at will" to burn you down is dumb.
You say run teleport away or run away.
Wow that sounds like so much fun. Pro tip dont engage just run away from the fight, the point, the domination zone you need to cap.
Just run away. Yes sounds like a great game for one party in the contest fanboi.
Thanks for a bit of sanity
Another top post. The way to counter the stealthed COS rogue is to run away.
GG sounds like fun for you.
God this is the worst of all the fanbois
Is OP working as intended GG everyone else.
Show me on this doll where the bad man touched you. :rolleyes:
As a rogue, I'm running away from tons of fights. Mobility is a huge aspect of the class, and that's why we have the best speed bonuses out of each of the classes. I don't cry when I have to run from an unkillable tank. It's part of the game.
I can tell you what's less fun that having to run for unwinnable fights. Being stunned for so long that all your hp is drained and you're killed without landing a single shot. But I accept it because rogue's defense is supposed to be paltry.
Some people just refuse to accept the limitations of their class.
Grow up.
If you don't have a rebuttal to my points just admit that you're wrong, and move along.
You have no rebuttal to my points, but you do have baseless insults.
This just proves that these threads should be ignored. These people don't have any actual arguments. It all boils down to, "I died, and now I'm mad." Otherwise they could provide some sort of counter-argument besides ad hominem attacks.
Rebuttal to what? The only point you have made is that regardless of all the facts that are written out for you plain as day, you're adamant in your mindset that there's nothing wrong with the build in question. Everyone else is ignorant, not you. I mean you've played a rogue and know and have experienced all the hardships. Where as all the folks that say they've played rogues and that don't agree with you are just wrong, amirite?
What I can deduce from all of your posts is that this current build is your crutch and that if they take it away you'll go back to being the mediocre player that you are. In other words "the bad men will touch you again." :rolleyes:
More insults. Please save me the trouble of reporting you, and just leave the thread if you cannot behave in a mature manner.
I've made several points in this thread and others, you've just made it clear than you have no intention of addressing them. And you continue to show your lack of an argument with your baseless speculation and accusations. Your deduction is wrong and pointless. My rogue is an Executioner, not a permanent-stealth. I rarely use Clouds of Steel, and when I do, it's usually because there's an AoE surrounding a capture node and there's no other way for me to dish out damage until it evaporates.
At the end of the day, you're going to accuse anyone who disagrees with you as being a "fanboy" or "mediocre player who needs the build", so what's the point of this conversation? What facts have you brought up? What rebuttals to my claims have you offered? You've provided nothing to argue against except insults and accusations.
Here are some actual facts: The vast majority of these complaints are from people who don't know what they're talking about. They are clearly describing encounters with Executioner rogues using stealth, and not the perma-stealth build they are criticizing. So yes, they are ignorant of the class and how it works. Otherwise they would know that the damage output for perma-stealth builds are extremely low, because the build prioritising recovery and INT over power/armor pen and crit. The only damage-dealing feats the build has, are all relating to dealing damage within stealth and at-wills. Lashing blade is useless in this build, as our Dailies such as Shocking Execution and Bloodbath. The only time if which this build does acceptable damage is with At-Will attacks, and it still isn't enough to provide the types of damage you people are describing. What's actually happening is that you're simply being killed in stealth by Executioner rogues spamming CoS. And I do not personally see this as a problem. CoS has limited range and limited charges when compared to the proper ranged attack of the CW, and this is the balance of it. What is the point of making it less damaging on top of that? The main problem people seem to have is that it's used in stealth, which is nothing but whining, because this class is built around using At-Wills in stealth. In the end, these complaints are nothing more than people being upset that the class is working as intended. Cloud of Steel is about half as powerful as Sky Flourish, they both can be used in stealth without canceling it, and they both benefit from the same feats. The only difference is that it's a ranged attack, which rogues sorely need, considering they don't have the defensive capabilities to withstand AoE/stuns for very long.
No, I don't think there's a problem with CoS as it works currently. That's because I've played the rogue to completion several times, and understand the ins and outs of the class. I know it's limitations and strengths, and I know how to best utilize it to accomplish its role in PvE and PvP. The rogue is single-target DPS, and all of his attacks should be high-damaging. I'm not disagreeing with you because I lack skill or knowledge. I'm disagreeing with you because what you're saying simply isn't true or meaningful.
Don't bother responding. I already know, "blah blah man touched you, blah blah rogue fanboy", I'm not interested. I'd be happy to hear any salient arguments from other people in this thread that are actually interested in discussing this intelligently.
I've got a TR to 60, two actually. And I'm not here to pick a fight with you, I'm also not here to try and get TR's nerfed into oblivion.
I know all about the reasoning/excuse of being the only true striker and therefor TR's are supposed to do lots of damage 1v1, and that's not the point.
The point is what you are making as well, that the combination of how CoS works together with (semi) perma-stealth coupled with those runes is much too powerful. There is no counter that can deal with this amount of damage.
I'm definitely not saying to take it all away, hells, I love my TR and I don't want him gimped. But something is seriously wrong with this combination and I think it can be balanced without gimping (or loss of cryptic's revenue)
People do not wish for a nerf but a proper counter to perma-sealth builds.
Atleast that's what I am understanding from those posts
I think discussions like this get out of hand when people suggest their 'one and only fix' for a problem they themselves identified.
The problem is not perma-stealth. If TR's were just perma-stealthing all over the place, and staying hidden, things would be fine. It's perma-stealth and massive procced damage on CoS that is unbalancing.
But the discussion gets a bit lively when blanket statements are dropped ...
"Dear Devs, Scissors are fine, but Paper is really OP, please nerf. Regards, Rock."
No, this thread is about nerfs. A thread asking for counters would be purely related to gameplay, and would not be begging for "fixes" or dev attention. The thread is also a mess because people cannot wrap their heads around the idea that all rogues are not the same. People are not properly identifying the type of rogue that is killing them, and this is creating this image of your average rogue doing things it simply can't.
I suppose what's really bothering me is people judging every rogue by what a small minority can do. Not every rogue has these game-breaking enchantments that apparently make CoS some sort of guaranteed instant kill. Not every rogue spends their feat points making At-Wills as strong as possible or stealth last as long as possible. These things all make much more of a difference than people are giving them credit for. My executioner has a pretty crappy stealth duration, for instance. His CoS hits hard, sure, but I'd use Sky Flourish over it in almost any situation because it does more damage. I never try and burn down someone's health down from 100 with CoS, because it simply wouldn't work. I am aware that I could spec and gear in a way that would theoretically make it possible, but that's not my playstyle. I honestly feel as through I can do the same things this thread is complaining about, except for in melee range.
Regardless, I'm trying to figure out how to "nerf" CoS without completely breaking it. Suggestions such as having it break stealth or require charging up just seem silly, and I have to wonder how effective a base damage reduction would be considering how easy it is to warp to an enemy and unleash a powerful encounter to finish them off. I just don't want to see CoS become useless, since I still believe a ranged attack is necessary for a class as squishy as us. Literally every other At-Will is useless in PvP, and I question what I'm supposed to do against Control Wizards without a ranged attack being powerful enough to be viable.
What's your point? What would you like to see changed?
You have no problem with the reverse being fine...
I fully agree with the blanket nerfs being ridiculous and a lot would have been sorted if people learned more about their own but also that other class. That's why I rolled other classes, got a CW to 60 and the other three are halfway.
That's also how I'm learning to counter other TR's, by playing one of it's favorite snacks
I think if CoS does damage, the TR should be as visible to the other player the same way as when he's hitting from melee range.
I don't know damage-wise, I think basically the damage is fine, just that it scales way out of proportion with certain gear. That could be more fine-tuned without affecting base mechanics or general gear too much.
I've seen posts of people who make good use of all the at-wills, including gloam cut, and imho Duelist Fury should've actually been the ideal At-Will for a build that benefits from the longest stealth. I don't want CoS gone, I do want it tweaked so that it stays viable but can't be overcharged into a Deathstar anymore.
People stop QQ'ing? Especially about stealth. Without it rogues are squishy as heck. And no I don't have a perma stealth rogue.
I would eat a CoS nerf for my rogue if they gave them something to use in melee in PVP, you cant really use DF unless they just happen to sit there. CoS is about their only efficient damage they can lay down, and stealth is easily countered.
Rogues are not meant to sit there and go toe to toe, and that's what people want. All their abilities and damage are just about tied to stealth and people want that nerfed. After all QQ about rogues and rogues getting hit with a huge nerf bat across the board.