So we should nerf Lebron James? Might want to rethink the analogy just a bit.
If we were going to let him play with high schoolers. Yar.. make him play in his socks perhaps or one handed or one eyed/no hearing or send him back to Cleveland. :cool:
You said it. Why are you filling the discussion with so much misinformation.
I never said that permastealth was broken, nor have I said that it is fine. And nothing I've said in this thread has been "misinformation". If something I've said is untrue, then you're welcome to provide evidence.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
I've been getting a lot of messages about the INT/Recovery focused "Perma-Stealth" build in regards to it's cost.
I'd like to clarify that it's not a pay2win type of build, it takes consideration of the average player's AD income so your not spending millions of AD, so that anyone can really afford it.
I was using 7 [Silvery Enchantments, Rank 7] price ranges from 50-70K AD (bought them while they were at it's lowest)
In the utility and defensive slots, I used rank 5 and Dark Enchantment (Foundery enchantment on chest, not impressive bonuses but looks cool lol). I just combined low rank darks to make rank 5's or 6 but if you want to buy them in AH they cost about 7K AD.
Head, Armor, Arms, and Boots, I used the PvP Set costing me no AD
Main Hand: 30K AD
Off Hand: 5-10K (price increased, bought it for 5K)
Neck: 5K
Ring: 10-15K each
Total AD cost so far: 445K AD
the only thing that cost some what expensive is the shirt, pants, and belt, which cost about 300K AD, but you can just craft it.
Armor Enchantment: In the video I used a Thunderhead, but armor enchantment is clearly not needed since most of them take effect once you've taken damage and with good movement control you can avoid enemies attacks. (I used Thunderhead for its visual)
Weapon Enchantment: Bilethorn Enchantment is the cheapest type of weapon enchantment at the moment. In the video I'm actually using the one upgraded from a lesser.
if your going to buy the Pants, Shirt, belt, and [Bilethorn Enchantment] (armor enchantment not needed) your looking at maybe around 1.1 mil AD, depending how how much the belt was, either free from pvp reward on bought in AH.
(if you want to be even cheap with less of a difference on the build, just buy the normal purple pants, not gemmed. Because it being gemmed will give you a defensive slot but that defensive slot is not needed, giving you life steal with dark)
but anyways, its about 1.5 mill I guess, making sure your buying them at it's lowest
I never said that permastealth was broken, nor have I said that it is fine. And nothing I've said in this thread has been "misinformation". If something I've said is untrue, then you're welcome to provide evidence.
Agreed. It's not broken, it's a tradeoff. Do you want Permastealth or do you want damage?
Agreed. It's not broken, it's a tradeoff. Do you want Permastealth or do you want damage?
Only a superich Rogue can afford to be both.
Here is the thing though, why would a rogue want to divide their strength like that? If they can afford enchants and gear why would they stick with a build that does reduce their dmg output? The would be better off abandoning the stealth build and go for more dmg.
the damage comes from accumulated attacks, with Poisons, Nimble Blade Procs, Greater Tene Procs (if you have any),
You dont need the tenes. I pointed them out to counter your argument that this build does no damage. It does. I see no reason why any class should have perma stealth.
<snipped the snides, mine too>
We can go round and round on this one, you say it shouldn't be possible, I say it should.
My reasoning is that stealth isn't invisibility...normally. When a TR is close enough, or due to some other mechanism I don't know, you will see him. I've spotted stealthed rogues from all the way across a towerplatform. ItC gives a black smokey animation, stealth a kinda see-through one. And I've been put down numerous times when I was just minding my own stealthed business.
CoS (I believe) doesn't reveal the TR as much as a melee attack does. And imo that's a problem because it opens the door to can of whoopass that's not funny anymore. But what I, and I believe Pinkfont too, am trying to say, is that just blindly nerfing CoS or the stealth mechanic so perma-stealth is no longer possible, is completely not the solution to the problem. It will really put the hurt on all TR's, while the problem is not all the TR's.
The problem is the can of whoopass, and you don't get rid of that just by nerfing stealth or CoS and gimping the TR in general. Which, unfortunately, is what a lot of "nerf rouges!!" threads seem to be all about.
Putting words in people's mouth is not effective debating. I don't have any opinion either way in regards to whether it's broken or not, which you would know if you actually bothered to read anything I wrote in this thread. I'm simply concerned about how any changes to the stealth system would affect rogues who are not using the permastealth build. I'm also pointing out key facts about the build that this thread is outright ignoring, such as the high level of cost and skill involved with making it work as it does in that video.
If you're suggesting that you are regularly fighting rogues with gear worth millions of AD and who never make a single mistake in their stealth rotation, then yeah, I'm going to call you disingenuous. He's using the best, most expensive gear and never makes a single mistake that would break his stealth. He's outright bypassed the limitations of the build through money and skill.
. I watched the video and can't help but feel like the entire rogue class is being judged by the actions of the minority. I think you're being a bit disingenuous if you're claiming that you're meeting many rogues like the one in that video. This guy has clearly spent millions of AD to build this character, and doesn't really represent your average rogue. For one thing, the player in the video has very high damage, which just seems crazy once you realize that he's prioritizing Recovery and Intelligence. That just isn't possible without $$$.
And it seems to be that the majority of the complaints in this thread are the result of ignorance. Ignorance of both how the rogue class operates, and how their own class functions. I do think that gear/enchants is a pretty big problem, but that's what lines PWI pockets and it won't be chased anytime soon. So what will be changed is the mechanics of the class, and that annoys me .
You state its only effective with awesome riches beyond the simple player and that is a lie. I got bored of finding more. These above are all from this one thread. Now the Poster of the Permastealth build responds to your assertions.
I've been getting a lot of messages about the INT/Recovery focused "Perma-Stealth" build in regards to it's cost.
I'd like to clarify that it's not a pay2win type of build, it takes consideration of the average player's AD income so your not spending millions of AD, so that anyone can really afford it.
I was using 7 [Silvery Enchantments, Rank 7] price ranges from 50-70K AD (bought them while they were at it's lowest)
In the utility and defensive slots, I used rank 5 and Dark Enchantment (Foundery enchantment on chest, not impressive bonuses but looks cool lol). I just combined low rank darks to make rank 5's or 6 but if you want to buy them in AH they cost about 7K AD.
Head, Armor, Arms, and Boots, I used the PvP Set costing me no AD
Main Hand: 30K AD
Off Hand: 5-10K (price increased, bought it for 5K)
Neck: 5K
Ring: 10-15K each
Total AD cost so far: 445K AD
but anyways, its about 1.5 mill I guess, making sure your buying them at it's lowest
And you have the gall to call me disingenuous. Stop spreading obvious disinformation as I have stated to you more than enough times now.
You state its only effective with awesome riches beyond the simple player and that is a lie. I got bored of finding more. These above are all from this one thread. Now the Poster of the Permastealth build responds to your assertions. And you have the gall to call me disingenuous. Stop spreading obvious disinformation as I have stated to you more than enough times now.
1.5 million AD is a lot. If you think the average player is walking around with that, then you're kidding yourself. Nothing I've said is untrue. x3lade just seems to think that hundreds of thousands of AD is cheap. That's his prerogative, and no one can say his personal opinion in wrong. Just like no one can say that mine is wrong, and I personally believe that his build requires an amount of money than your average player will never have. Also, I'd like to point out that while in this post he mentions simple silvery/dark enchantments, if you read his thread on the perma-stealth build he also emphasis the need for Bilethorn/Flaming and Thunderhead/Soulforge enchants, which will easily raise this build above the million dollar AD mark. The prices of AH are steadily rising. Finally, not once did I ever say you had to be rich in order for the build to be effective. I said that you couldn't preform the way he does in that video unless you were, and I stand by that statement. What he considers the average player's AD, I consider fairly unobtainable. Especially considering the fact that most people are using this as a solely-PvP built and no one is making 1.5 million AD through daily PvP matches. It's worth noting that x3lade is a founder and had 2,000,000 AD the moment he started the game. By comparison, my main has about 220K.
So yes, I have the gall to call you disingenuous, and I will continue to do so. Stop following me around threads spamming your copy-and-pasted message. If you want to rebuke what I'm saying, then do so, but following me along every thread going; "huehuehuehue why are you spreading misinformation" is counterproductive, antagonistic, and stupid. I'm happy to converse with you about this build and the rogue class, but you're not acting maturely. We're not accomplishing anything by doing this.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
Well I think avoiding dmg from cloud is manageable, but on the otherhand the 3 knockdowns are completely <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Class shouldn't even have that to begin with.
You can not be serious. A couple of hundred k ad is what $12.
You say "no where do you say you have to be rich" and right after the post above where you make that statement over and over again.
1.5m is the cost of my ancient main hand from CN. You can be effective with pvp gear as he states without high end enchants as stated below.
I was using 7 [Silvery Enchantments, Rank 7] price ranges from 50-70K AD (bought them while they were at it's lowest)
In the utility and defensive slots, I used rank 5 and Dark Enchantment (Foundery enchantment on chest, not impressive bonuses but looks cool lol). I just combined low rank darks to make rank 5's or 6 but if you want to buy them in AH they cost about 7K AD.
Head, Armor, Arms, and Boots, I used the PvP Set costing me no AD
Main Hand: 30K AD
Off Hand: 5-10K (price increased, bought it for 5K)
Neck: 5K
Ring: 10-15K each
Total AD cost so far: 445K AD
the only thing that cost some what expensive is the shirt, pants, and belt, which cost about 300K AD, but you can just craft it.
Armor Enchantment: In the video I used a Thunderhead, but armor enchantment is clearly not needed since most of them take effect once you've taken damage and with good movement control you can avoid enemies attacks. (I used Thunderhead for its visual)
Weapon Enchantment: Bilethorn Enchantment is the cheapest type of weapon enchantment at the moment. In the video I'm actually using the one upgraded from a lesser.
Well I think avoiding dmg from cloud is manageable, but on the otherhand the 3 knockdowns are completely <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Class shouldn't even have that to begin with.
you confuse TRs with GFs here, TRs dont have a single knockdown
You can not be serious. A couple of hundred k ad is what $12?
I don't know, I don't funnel money into free-to-play games. Regardless, ff you're suggesting that paying money is the route to take in order to accomplish what he did in the video, then you're just mirroring my point. I don't care if it's 12 dollars or 5 cents. Besides, he did not just spend 12 dollars. He has spent at least 200$ on this game. 1.5 million AD is nothing to him. Your average player is not a founder. Your average rogue is not a founder.
You say "no where do you say you have to be rich" and right after the post above where you make that statement over and over again.
False. Dude, reread what I actually wrote. I never said you had to be rich in order to be effective at the build, I just said that he was rich (in terms of the in-game economy) and that this was reflected in the video. He obviously spent money in order to build his character. He can spend hundreds of thousands of AD without a second thought. x3lade did not earn that amount of AD through daily PvP matches on a free character. He's a founder, he runs dungeons, and he has several characters through which to funnel additional AD. If you think he represents the average rogue you're facing in PvP, then I can see why you would be upset. But he doesn't.
If x3lade thinks this amount of AD is insignificant, then that's fine. If you think that amount of AD is insignificant, that's fine too. I do not. Hopefully you can respect that.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
Ok I admit it!.. We have to much damage mitigation, can stun, plenty of hit points plus more temporary hp, we run faster than anything in the game, and can solo 4v1's all day long, not to mention we do pretty good dmg also.
Ugh wait! Where is the sentinel build GWF is OP thread? O_o
you just need to learn the easy ways to avoid the damage.
This. I was pretty annoyed by the perma-stealth TRs, but the trick is simple, get out of there. There's still a limit on what they do and how it operates, and when you know what it is, you can have an edge on them. It's still a tough battle if you're against a well-geared TR, but very possible. Just change your strategy.
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filcMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Competent rogue can't be killed by a CW. You're forced to dodge CoS, or you'll die or atleast will be take lots of damage, if you've wasted your dodges you're defenceless against a rogue with ItC who's hitting you heavily and got to you by simply pressing deft strike.
Rogues are capable of doing 48k LB crits while LA is active, able to 100-0 people without leaving stealth or coming close.
Bad rogues are easy to beat, good ones, which are rare however, are impossible, but game shouldn't be balanced around bad players.
Solution is simple - rogue should leave stealth when dealing damage, simple as that.
Excellent post!!
HAMSTER, level 60 GF, "Bloodthirsty" since Mod 2 Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
If you ask Developers to make rogue should leave stealth while dealing damage, then i demand the following:
- That you get no extra HP from unstoppable.
- GF's shield gets reduced by 80%.
- CW's spell's mastery only add chill effect to encounters slotted there.
Fair enough? Since you want to turn my stealth into an invisible movement mechanism that i would only use to escape.
Well I do think damage should break stealth, I also don't understand a damage bonus while in stealth it should be the other way around. All attacks while stealthed should be reduced by 50% which kinda fixes the stealth/perma stealth issue in the game that no one really wants. Yes I speak for everyone I am Abomb. PvP biggest issue is still the rogue being the best Dps, ranged, utility class. So pick one. can't have it all. Still have a daily that is way overpower with SE. All dailys should be in the 5-10k crit area they are for moderate burst not game changing the fight. I said all dailys. Then take the adjustments that is needed for TR's from there.
there still someone that care about people cry on Tr, CW, GWF, GF or Dc need ( ROLF XD ) a balance xD? Lern to pvp or don't go in. And stop cry -..- all the modification people ask make the pve more hard -.-
Comments
You said it. Why are you filling the discussion with so much misinformation.
If we were going to let him play with high schoolers. Yar.. make him play in his socks perhaps or one handed or one eyed/no hearing or send him back to Cleveland. :cool:
I never said that permastealth was broken, nor have I said that it is fine. And nothing I've said in this thread has been "misinformation". If something I've said is untrue, then you're welcome to provide evidence.
then quote him maybe?
I'd like to clarify that it's not a pay2win type of build, it takes consideration of the average player's AD income so your not spending millions of AD, so that anyone can really afford it.
In the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XylOlYBCGP0
I was using 7 [Silvery Enchantments, Rank 7] price ranges from 50-70K AD (bought them while they were at it's lowest)
In the utility and defensive slots, I used rank 5 and Dark Enchantment (Foundery enchantment on chest, not impressive bonuses but looks cool lol). I just combined low rank darks to make rank 5's or 6 but if you want to buy them in AH they cost about 7K AD.
Head, Armor, Arms, and Boots, I used the PvP Set costing me no AD
Main Hand: 30K AD
Off Hand: 5-10K (price increased, bought it for 5K)
Neck: 5K
Ring: 10-15K each
Total AD cost so far: 445K AD
the only thing that cost some what expensive is the shirt, pants, and belt, which cost about 300K AD, but you can just craft it.
Armor Enchantment: In the video I used a Thunderhead, but armor enchantment is clearly not needed since most of them take effect once you've taken damage and with good movement control you can avoid enemies attacks. (I used Thunderhead for its visual)
Weapon Enchantment: Bilethorn Enchantment is the cheapest type of weapon enchantment at the moment. In the video I'm actually using the one upgraded from a lesser.
if your going to buy the Pants, Shirt, belt, and [Bilethorn Enchantment] (armor enchantment not needed) your looking at maybe around 1.1 mil AD, depending how how much the belt was, either free from pvp reward on bought in AH.
(if you want to be even cheap with less of a difference on the build, just buy the normal purple pants, not gemmed. Because it being gemmed will give you a defensive slot but that defensive slot is not needed, giving you life steal with dark)
but anyways, its about 1.5 mill I guess, making sure your buying them at it's lowest
Agreed. It's not broken, it's a tradeoff. Do you want Permastealth or do you want damage?
Only a superich Rogue can afford to be both.
Here is the thing though, why would a rogue want to divide their strength like that? If they can afford enchants and gear why would they stick with a build that does reduce their dmg output? The would be better off abandoning the stealth build and go for more dmg.
I wonder how these stealth build rogues do in pvE
We can go round and round on this one, you say it shouldn't be possible, I say it should.
My reasoning is that stealth isn't invisibility...normally. When a TR is close enough, or due to some other mechanism I don't know, you will see him. I've spotted stealthed rogues from all the way across a towerplatform. ItC gives a black smokey animation, stealth a kinda see-through one. And I've been put down numerous times when I was just minding my own stealthed business.
CoS (I believe) doesn't reveal the TR as much as a melee attack does. And imo that's a problem because it opens the door to can of whoopass that's not funny anymore. But what I, and I believe Pinkfont too, am trying to say, is that just blindly nerfing CoS or the stealth mechanic so perma-stealth is no longer possible, is completely not the solution to the problem. It will really put the hurt on all TR's, while the problem is not all the TR's.
The problem is the can of whoopass, and you don't get rid of that just by nerfing stealth or CoS and gimping the TR in general. Which, unfortunately, is what a lot of "nerf rouges!!" threads seem to be all about.
So, apologies for the snides, that wasn't nice.
Again i state all you provide is misinformation.
Coming to a rogue near you! (the one you still can't see yet) :cool:
Which is a meaningless statement without examples. If you believe that to be true, then provide quotes. Otherwise you have no argument.
You state its only effective with awesome riches beyond the simple player and that is a lie. I got bored of finding more. These above are all from this one thread. Now the Poster of the Permastealth build responds to your assertions.
And you have the gall to call me disingenuous. Stop spreading obvious disinformation as I have stated to you more than enough times now.
1.5 million AD is a lot. If you think the average player is walking around with that, then you're kidding yourself. Nothing I've said is untrue. x3lade just seems to think that hundreds of thousands of AD is cheap. That's his prerogative, and no one can say his personal opinion in wrong. Just like no one can say that mine is wrong, and I personally believe that his build requires an amount of money than your average player will never have. Also, I'd like to point out that while in this post he mentions simple silvery/dark enchantments, if you read his thread on the perma-stealth build he also emphasis the need for Bilethorn/Flaming and Thunderhead/Soulforge enchants, which will easily raise this build above the million dollar AD mark. The prices of AH are steadily rising. Finally, not once did I ever say you had to be rich in order for the build to be effective. I said that you couldn't preform the way he does in that video unless you were, and I stand by that statement. What he considers the average player's AD, I consider fairly unobtainable. Especially considering the fact that most people are using this as a solely-PvP built and no one is making 1.5 million AD through daily PvP matches. It's worth noting that x3lade is a founder and had 2,000,000 AD the moment he started the game. By comparison, my main has about 220K.
So yes, I have the gall to call you disingenuous, and I will continue to do so. Stop following me around threads spamming your copy-and-pasted message. If you want to rebuke what I'm saying, then do so, but following me along every thread going; "huehuehuehue why are you spreading misinformation" is counterproductive, antagonistic, and stupid. I'm happy to converse with you about this build and the rogue class, but you're not acting maturely. We're not accomplishing anything by doing this.
You say "no where do you say you have to be rich" and right after the post above where you make that statement over and over again.
1.5m is the cost of my ancient main hand from CN. You can be effective with pvp gear as he states without high end enchants as stated below.
I was using 7 [Silvery Enchantments, Rank 7] price ranges from 50-70K AD (bought them while they were at it's lowest)
In the utility and defensive slots, I used rank 5 and Dark Enchantment (Foundery enchantment on chest, not impressive bonuses but looks cool lol). I just combined low rank darks to make rank 5's or 6 but if you want to buy them in AH they cost about 7K AD.
Head, Armor, Arms, and Boots, I used the PvP Set costing me no AD
Main Hand: 30K AD
Off Hand: 5-10K (price increased, bought it for 5K)
Neck: 5K
Ring: 10-15K each
Total AD cost so far: 445K AD
the only thing that cost some what expensive is the shirt, pants, and belt, which cost about 300K AD, but you can just craft it.
Armor Enchantment: In the video I used a Thunderhead, but armor enchantment is clearly not needed since most of them take effect once you've taken damage and with good movement control you can avoid enemies attacks. (I used Thunderhead for its visual)
Weapon Enchantment: Bilethorn Enchantment is the cheapest type of weapon enchantment at the moment. In the video I'm actually using the one upgraded from a lesser.
you confuse TRs with GFs here, TRs dont have a single knockdown
I don't know, I don't funnel money into free-to-play games. Regardless, ff you're suggesting that paying money is the route to take in order to accomplish what he did in the video, then you're just mirroring my point. I don't care if it's 12 dollars or 5 cents. Besides, he did not just spend 12 dollars. He has spent at least 200$ on this game. 1.5 million AD is nothing to him. Your average player is not a founder. Your average rogue is not a founder.
False. Dude, reread what I actually wrote. I never said you had to be rich in order to be effective at the build, I just said that he was rich (in terms of the in-game economy) and that this was reflected in the video. He obviously spent money in order to build his character. He can spend hundreds of thousands of AD without a second thought. x3lade did not earn that amount of AD through daily PvP matches on a free character. He's a founder, he runs dungeons, and he has several characters through which to funnel additional AD. If you think he represents the average rogue you're facing in PvP, then I can see why you would be upset. But he doesn't.
If x3lade thinks this amount of AD is insignificant, then that's fine. If you think that amount of AD is insignificant, that's fine too. I do not. Hopefully you can respect that.
end.
Ugh wait! Where is the sentinel build GWF is OP thread? O_o
This. I was pretty annoyed by the perma-stealth TRs, but the trick is simple, get out of there. There's still a limit on what they do and how it operates, and when you know what it is, you can have an edge on them. It's still a tough battle if you're against a well-geared TR, but very possible. Just change your strategy.
Excellent post!!
Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR
Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
- That you get no extra HP from unstoppable.
- GF's shield gets reduced by 80%.
- CW's spell's mastery only add chill effect to encounters slotted there.
Fair enough? Since you want to turn my stealth into an invisible movement mechanism that i would only use to escape.
edit: ah, nevermind, Troll pit.