phoenixsolaceMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
The patch that comes out to fix the assisting bug is a must for this to work. If you don't meet certain criteria as in healing amount/damage/score/kill/point capture and or point defense you do not get glory. Lets say you have to meet 2/5 objectives on the list before being eligible for glory to make it simple. Thoughts?
Yes, this would probably work. There would be no reason to be a bot anymore.
But like I said, anything in an MMO that doesn't reward you in some way, is missing the point.
...This mentality is the problem with this games community. The whole "i deserve something for everything i do" is ridiculous here. Yes, its an MMO, yes, it should reward for things, no it should not cater to people who have this self entitled attitude. The changes are to make botting less attractive and not worth it. People that leave matches because they are losing and want to try to get into another match are funny. What happens when you get a bunch of them in a row? Now you've wasted so much more of your own time trying to get into a winning match that you just lost out on a bunch of honor you could have got just from spending the extra 10mins it takes for a 5 man team to beat a 3 man team. BTW, i have won matches as a 3 man team against a 5 man. it is very difficult but not unheard of.
I think one of the elements that are the most critical to this discussion is to ensure that losing players that try get rewarded while trying to weed out afkers. One way to deal with the problem that would most likely kill afk farming in time would be to allocate fixed Glory pool for each match to be split among the 2 teams depending on the score. A close score would earn more Glory to the losers (up to near par with the winners), and less for the winners. There is no incentive for the winner not to try to **** the other team (hence competition) since the reward is commensurate with their success. Their is no incentive to the losing team to afk since they can mitigate their loss by doing as best they can.
Now what happens when you put afkers in the mix. The team that has an afkers or the most of them will get HAMSTER and destroy any benefit the losing group might receive. Players on the losing team that played will have to bite the bullet until the afkers start realizing they dont get anything from doing so then the problem should fix itself.
What about quiters ... quiters should forego all glory for the match and be unable to Q for the lenght of the current match + 15 minutes. Since the PVP events are pretty short this should discourage this kind of behaviour without having people resort to AFKing since it would still not reward them since it would make their team lose badly leading to them receiving next to no reward.
Daily PVP quest credit should be awarded for scores of over 750 only (or another performance floor). So you dont penalize the losing team if they gave a fair fight, but afkers and quiters wont get credit. No match should award 2 credit (might be a bug).
Oh, suggestion! Bigger punishment, losers payout the glory they already had (or go negative)! BANG! Make it ball crushingly kick to the groin how obvious the desire is to win. If your going to win, go big and if your losing now you have a bigger reason to win. Also, add a forfeit option...you give up the right for a reward, you do not pay out glory, and take the penalty for re-que. Hey, if you are all in it to win it you should be the underdog that wins not some stupid "Hey guys, we can do this!" and still lose with "GG games!" no matter how hard you try...basically you win or lose hard, but have the option to not suffer painfully.
Why is this suggestion so good? Because I am tired of whiny emos complaining to resolve issues in PUGs, cause they whine when their fun is ruined forgetting the guy leaving is having his fun ruined in the process. It isn't always the reward, its just the time wasted in the process continuing a pointless pursuit when its plainly obvious you are going to lose..there is just no **** reason to continue when you have logically weighed in the parameters and realize that your not going to win, might as well end it quickly.
Unlike the rest of the human race, I know my abilities and if I believe this isn't a winning match I will give up graciously but no reason should they be penalized. Its like playing cards, if you fold when suddenly the pot becomes to high and you look at your cards when you know its a crappy hand...****, why should I feed more chips to the table? Yeah, to bad no other MMO has a "folding card" option but plenty of whiner video gamers who ***** and whine when someone folds their cards.
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elawynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Unlike the rest of the human race, I know my abilities and if I believe this isn't a winning match I will give up graciously but no reason should they be penalized. Its like playing cards, if you fold when suddenly the pot becomes to high and you look at your cards when you know its a crappy hand...****, why should I feed more chips to the table? Yeah, to bad no other MMO has a "folding card" option but plenty of whiner video gamers who ***** and whine when someone folds their cards.
Interesting analogy.
What's the 'ante' here in PvP tho.
Takes us back to the zero sum concept.
If, after a certain level, you had to 'deposit' something (glory points perhaps), and they would be handed to the winning team if you choose to fold, that might work.
If we go with a poker analogy, particularly a Texas Hold'em one, then you have small blind and big blind and ante in play. Each new match is the 'luck of the draw'. If you are small blind and draw a 7 2 offsuit, you probably have no chance. Fold, and lose your ante and small blind.
What happens when you are 'bust' tho, that's a different question. Perhaps keep this analogy in play, put up some astral diamonds in place of the points as your 'buy in' for a PvP match?
So, you're going to decrease glory gain for losing team huh?
You do realize what will happen as a result of this, right?
People will leave matches once it's obvious they will not win. If you guys are annoyed at all these 3v5 games now, just wait until there's literally no reason to stay in a game that you're losing. Every game will end up as a 1v5.
Right now, the situation isn't perfect but at least there's a silver lining. Yeah getting stuck in a match with one bot running around in circles and one person disconnected sucks, but at least once you inevitably get face-rolled and lose, you still get something worthwhile for your efforts. Take that away, and why shouldn't you just leave and try to find another game with a more balanced team?
Why wouldn't you leave?
agreed 100%
also what will happen to those games where the score is close (999 to 950 etc) will the loser still get nothing in that case? because that would suck even harder... stick around to the end fighting a fun, close game and get @#$% for it?? ridiculous
Yes, this would probably work. There would be no reason to be a bot anymore.
But like I said, anything in an MMO that doesn't reward you in some way, is missing the point.
How's not having bots on your team because there's no reason to bot anymore for a reward?
Hell, I'd take that deal in a heartbeat. Here, take my glory, take my XP, take all the rewards. Just give me actual PvP.
Seriously though, tongue in cheek aside, I think you're missing the point of these changes even though you're looking directly at it. And the point of PvP itself, at that.
You complain that you'll have to sit through a hopeless match due to bots on your team and not even get anything for your trouble. But you won't have to deal with bots because there'll be no point to botting pvp anymore. You complain that you won't even be able to leave a 3v5 due to punishment. But there won't be a 3v5 anymore if there's a significant punishment for leaving/afking. (Oh, and the irony of complaining about not being able to leave due to leavers)
As for your insistence that everything must have a reward... first of all, that's just not the case as it is. If you don't complete the quest objectives, you don't get the quest rewards. If you don't beat the boss, you don't get the boss loot. Sure, you'll get some random trash drops and copper coins along the way, but nothing of real value. But there's a whole different issue here, on top of all that...
PvP is not a quest. And PvP is not a boss encounter. You should not grind PvP. And you should not farm PvP. You shouldn't even be able to do that. That's not what its for and that is not its purpose. If that's how you see PvP, you have no business going into PvP matches. And if the current PvP reward system encourages you to see PvP this way and to try to farm it, then that only underlines the fact that the reward system needs some serious revision. And possibly that there needs to be more variety in PvE farming opportunities, so you don't feel driven to farm PvP in the first place.
PvP is about the challenge and PvP is about the Glory. No, not the points. But the accomplishment of overcoming a worthy adversary. Of outsmarting a smart opponent. You should be able to relish the feeling of victory. And you should be able to learn from the mistakes that lead to defeat. The experience itself should be rewarding, win or lose, or you shouldn't be doing it. Or it has no purpose.
Anyway, I'm going to stop myself here... I didn't mean to get so ranty when I started writing this, and I apologize if it comes off rather harsh. But I think it does need to be said. PvP is not PvE, nor should it be, nor can it be, nor does it need to be. They're different types of content for different types of players, and you shouldn't try to force one to conform to your expectations that are based on the other. Ask for more PvE content to farm. Ask for more sources of daily AD. Ask for more forms of accessible T1 gear. But don't ask for PvP to be more like PvE in terms of farmability and rewards.
Dig this. A two tiered PVP structure, one that costs nothing to join and works just like PVP does now, bots and all, but for much lower rewards.
Then a second tier with a buy-in that goes to the winners. Botting there will just lower the chances the bot will get anything and since there is a pay-in the bot actually stands to lose their goodies.
You can get the points to join the latter in the prior and all the bots can just bot with each other. It becomes much less lucrative to bot since everyone is playing for the scratch to join the second tier anyway because that
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
agreed 100%
also what will happen to those games where the score is close (999 to 950 etc) will the loser still get nothing in that case? because that would suck even harder... stick around to the end fighting a fun, close game and get @#$% for it?? ridiculous
loser still get something, just not as much (as I understand it)
People in general are lazy (usually) they want to get max gain for little work. The trick is finding that medium that make all party happy.
Couple of things that "might work" in PvP
- participation level. Are you capping? fighting? defending? SWTOR has defend point when guarding a node.
- If you just defend (bot) you get some reward (minimal)
- If you defend and attack (logged) after certain threshold, you get more reward (even losing)
- If you attack (taking a node/killing players) you also get more points and higher reward.
so in either side, if you win, you get a bonus across the board, but if you lose, then the top participating+defending get reward also (just without the bonus)
so if you are in a 3v5, you are working your butt off, you will get decent reward.
In fact - if you leave, you're done PvPin' for the day. That will stop the horse dootin' right there.
Afk farm penalty timer. If you're team is caught napping, 7 day penalty. Twice, you're account is up for review.
How bout that?
But what about when the teleporter breaks and you don't get ported in? Or are we counting on that system being fixed? Because I would feel back if I was a dead weight on my team because I wasn't popped into the instance, but couldn't quit because then I wouldn't be able to play any more.
But what about when the teleporter breaks and you don't get ported in? Or are we counting on that system being fixed?
That's a different issue. I'd put the code monkeys to work right away if it was up to me. Cleaning up pvp - cleans up the game for the entire community.
Not only should they penalize losing, but leaving should incur a timer where the rage quitter cant requeue.
How very disappointing that no one seems to be interested in making PVP more engaging and fun. We just want to punish someone, stick it to them.
But why be surprised. This is PVP we are talking about.
So fine, ways to harm others for leaving a match and not letting you beat on them. We have alrady discussed the obvious.
Give them a temp title “Loser”, “Quitter”, “Coward”, that will give daddy something to be proud of.
Send a message to the server just like you do with those repulsive lock boxes. “Magyar552 has fled the battlefield in Shame!”
In CoH the NPCs would talk about you when they walked by. Have that happen here. “Did you hear about Teneb663? Yeah ran like a little girl I heard.”
Attach the sound of a crying baby to their character for a time.
Develop a PVP tutorial video and force them to watch it if they leave a match early.
Half their health score until they successfully win a match
This all sounds like a great way to keep customers doesn’t it. Let’s alienate and exclude as many people as possible until only people like YOU remain.
How very disappointing that no one seems to be interested in making PVP more engaging and fun. We just want to punish someone, stick it to them.
But why be surprised. This is PVP we are talking about.
So fine, ways to harm others for leaving a match and not letting you beat on them. We have alrady discussed the obvious.
Give them a temp title “Loser”, “Quitter”, “Coward”, that will give daddy something to be proud of.
Send a message to the server just like you do with those repulsive lock boxes. “Magyar552 has fled the battlefield in Shame!”
In CoH the NPCs would talk about you when they walked by. Have that happen here. “Did you hear about Teneb663? Yeah ran like a little girl I heard.”
Attach the sound of a crying baby to their character for a time.
Develop a PVP tutorial video and force them to watch it if they leave a match early.
Half their heath score until they successfully win a match
This all sounds like a great way to keep customers doesn’t it. Let’s alienate and exclude as many people as possible until only people like YOU remain.
The goal of any shortsighted human being.
LOL! Why would punishing cheaters alienate anyone playing the game with integrity? Cheaters don't pay for games. No loss if they leave. No "title necessary", the shame is self inflicted. The morale boost for the great majority of the playerbase, which does play honestly is worth it. Happy customers tend to open their wallets.
I'm fairly certain, though untested because I refuse to rage quit, that players who leave are permitted to queue again right away which is the problem.
If they at least couldn't queue for the duration of the match then I'd be happy. That's a penalty. However right now people are leaving within the first couple of minutes to be on a winning team and that's not something which should occur.
It makes the losing team miserable.
It makes PvP for the winning team less enjoyable. (unless you're just going to be <censored>)
Nobody wins...except the leavers.
And lowering the rewards (with a proper punishment for leaving early) would solve both issues and provide an overall better PvP experience.
Isn't the real problem that your matching system is about as dependable as FEMA due to it not having directives that would produce better matchups IE: GS, kill/death tracker, win/loss tracker, or some kind of ranking? I agree with the OP here in that your only shooting yourself in the foot with your biased opinion that a leaving penalty will actually stop people from leaving. you might wanna take a note from WoW. They thought the same thing but I bet you the leave due to losing ratio is still the same it was back in Vanilla/BC/WoTLK.
PS: Lowering the glory for the losing team is gonna make it worse.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Not going to happen. Too many of the younger crowd would have an uproar. Just look at the thread which called for penalizing leaving for prime examples.
'Don't punish bad behavior, reward good behavior' *shakes head and laughs*
The best thing I every got when I was young was my behind handed to me, Tabasco Sauce when I said naughty words and time outs. I got rewarded for good behavior too but when it comes down to it the only reason I avoided bad behavior was because I got penalized for it.
Reward good behavior all you want, but when it comes down to it without a penalty there's no reason to avoid the bad.
Look at it this way, people don't follow laws because they're supposed to or are rewarded for doing so. They do so to avoid the punishments for breaking the law.
It's "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time" not "Don't do the crime if you want your candy!"
How very disappointing that no one seems to be interested in making PVP more engaging and fun. We just want to punish someone, stick it to them.
But why be surprised. This is PVP we are talking about.
[etc etc]
Because ALL of the content in a game has to be custom tailored to YOUR liking and should by no means be designed for people with a different view on things, right?
See, I can play the "make the other guy look selfish" game too. But it doesn't make for a very productive discussion, does it?
People are making these suggestions precisely because they want to "make PvP more engaging and fun". We just don't find playing with and against bots engaging or fun. We also don't find our teammates whining and leaving engaging or fun.
The fact is, there are plenty of things to do in the game if quitting halfway through is your thing. And, hey, no judgment. If you don't want to keep doing something that you don't find fun, that's a perfectly valid position to have. As long as doing so doesn't adversely affect other people. And it does in PvP. Very much so. So, if you're not willing to see it through to the end, perhaps PvP is just not your cup of tea. Your second paragraph seems to convey that you view PvP with some disdain anyway.
So let us have our PvP the way we like it, and enjoy the other parts of the game the way you like them.
Originally Posted by nornsavant
How very disappointing that no one seems to be interested in making PVP more engaging and fun. We just want to punish someone, stick it to them.
But why be surprised. This is PVP we are talking about.
So fine, ways to harm others for leaving a match and not letting you beat on them. We have alrady discussed the obvious.
Give them a temp title “Loser”, “Quitter”, “Coward”, that will give daddy something to be proud of.
Send a message to the server just like you do with those repulsive lock boxes. “Magyar552 has fled the battlefield in Shame!”
In CoH the NPCs would talk about you when they walked by. Have that happen here. “Did you hear about Teneb663? Yeah ran like a little girl I heard.”
Attach the sound of a crying baby to their character for a time.
Develop a PVP tutorial video and force them to watch it if they leave a match early.
Half their heath score until they successfully win a match
This all sounds like a great way to keep customers doesn’t it. Let’s alienate and exclude as many people as possible until only people like YOU remain.
LOL! Why would punishing cheaters alienate anyone playing the game with integrity? Cheaters don't pay for games. No loss if they leave. No "title necessary", the shame is self inflicted. The morale boost for the great majority of the playerbase, which does play honestly is worth it. Happy customers tend to open their wallets.
Do tell how leaving a match because they're losing is cheating? Actually where in this post does he even mention the word cheat/cheater/cheating?
I can just see people doing exactly 4 PvP matches everyday, just for the AD. And I doubt they would even bother playing without the promise of glory/XP/a-match-without-bots-and-unbalanced-teams. Just put a heavy object on your "W" you key and have your character run into the wall for the entire match. Maybe grab a drink. I wonder what's on HBO? Wait, why is the band playing the rains of castamere? Robb no!!!! ;_;
Pretty much the PvP game I see 99% of the time. Free Astral Diamonds! Free Glory! Just walk into walls! Having the winner or looser gain more or less Glory is not all that important because most of the glory gear isn't all that great to begin with.
Most Bots are doing it because it requires 0 effort for more than 0 rewards... Free power leveling for those less then level 60. No matter how you structure the reward system as long as there is the possibility that you will get some reward of any kind it is worth walking into walls for...
This will have ZERO effect on the overall bot, afk, walking into walls, etc issues...
Do tell how leaving a match because they're losing is cheating? Actually where in this post does he even mention the word cheat/cheater/cheating?
The reality is many are leaving just to re-queue. I dont care what you call it, it's beating/working the system. System needs to be changed.
Now I'm all up for protecting the innocent, so lets start with who would get affected that's not trying to circumvent the system to their advantage, and a solution to minimize their impact.
Oh, suggestion! Bigger punishment, losers payout the glory they already had (or go negative)! BANG! Make it ball crushingly kick to the groin how obvious the desire is to win.
This is a great idea. Except change the word "win" for "play".
As in, get off the campfire and play out the match. If you leave, you pay out the entire glory reward for the entire match to both teams, plus a fine to the team you screwed. Make is "ball crushingly kick to the groin" how obvious it is that you committed to playing the match when you queued, now suck it up and play the match right to the end.
Obviously, that's just as stupid an idea as the post I snipped that from, but I think it shows a viewpoint---play out your matches and don't quit. If you're quitting half your matches and your teams never seem to win.....maybe you ought to play them out and get some practice in, the problem just might be you.
Without bots and quitters, the matches all start at 5vs5(barring DC, and assuming that the patch fixes the "didn't load in" bug), eliminating any of the nonsense about being undermanned in the first place. A leaver penalty would be a really good start.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Do tell how leaving a match because they're losing is cheating? Actually where in this post does he even mention the word cheat/cheater/cheating?
Cheating is a strong word...
But leaving a losing game to requeue into another match game is, as Aandre said, working the system and is something basically every PvP system has to prevent. Just one example is league of legends. You leave and you can't join again. If you consistently leave you will be banned.
Leaving rewards one person and one person only: the leaver.
PvP enjoyment should come directly from the challenge. An easy win feels good occasionally but winning because of a 5v4 (or less) as a common occurrence leaves everybody unsatisfied.
So as I keep saying any system needs a forgiveness factor...
But allowing people to leave just because they are losing and then joining into another match while your former team is forced to lose is not an acceptable behavior no matter what way you try to spin it. Nobody likes to lose but somebody has to and it can't be because somebody decided to rage quit or sit in the base.
Of course these need to be improved:
Matching based on Gear Score
Matching based on the number of pre-mades vs randoms
Balancing class grouping
A surrender function
Failing to Port
-
But rage quitting or sitting in the base against the groups wishes shouldn't be tolerated by any PvP system let alone rewarded as it currently is.
Note that people pvp to have fun. If they are not having fun then nobody will be playing. If your penalty is too harsh people will always find the path of least resistance.
1) Glory points
2) Astral Diamonds from daily quest
3) Experience points for characters 1-59
Not sure if I missed any... If #1, #2 or #3 is possible rewards for doing nothing productive in PvP (walking into walls, AFK, etc) then you will NEVER have any meaningful impact on stopping people from doing it. If I can get rewarded for doing nothing while others people do something why would I not take advantage of it?
Plus with the new patch you will not have the ability to REMOVE ME FROM THE GROUP for any reason, guaranteeing me a potential reward. No matter what ideas you have about quitter penalties, reduced glory rewards, etc if I can get something for nothing there will be people who will do it.
It's just a fact...
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Note that people pvp to have fun. If they are not having fun then nobody will be playing. If your penalty is too harsh people will always find the path of least resistance.
And if the penalty is too weak, or in this case non-existent, causing too many players to leave/AFK then nobody has fun.
And if the penalty is too weak, or in this case non-existent, causing too many players to leave/AFK then nobody has fun.
I think WoW experimented with a "Deserter" debuff. 30 Mins you can't re-queue in the pvp battlegrounds or arena if you quit in the middle of a match. They eventually lower it to 20 minutes due to "complaints".
The reality is many are leaving just to re-queue. I dont care what you call it, it's beating/working the system. System needs to be changed.
Now I'm all up for protecting the innocent, so lets start with who would get affected that's not trying to circumvent the system to their advantage, and a solution to minimize their impact.
So your wanting to punish people for "beating/working" a broken system that you put out because they found a way to get better gains? Sounds like when that Microsoft employee told people to "Deal with it" because the xbox one slapped on a ton of restrictions. What happened there? People decided to go to the other system. Before handing out restrictions how about taking a step back and looking at WHY they decided to do the things they did and how to fix it.
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elawynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Back to the poker analogy again.
You enter a free heads up tournament. You sit down across from a Phil Ivey or other world class player. You can be fairly sure you're going to lose, so you walk away. You're DONE in that tournament.
Alternatively, you sit down across from someone who didn't even bother to show up, but his chips are on the table. You simply play the cards, raising every time. Absent player automatically folds. You move on to the next round. If you 'rage quit' because the other guy didn't show up then there's a slim chance you won't win because you run out of chips for the big blind first.
Here, the analogy develops into "You walked away", since there's no 'buy in' you get to sit at a different table. The idea here is to put a delay in place so you can't simply keep walking away and sitting at a different table until you get one you happen to like.
If we had an 'ante' for entering PvP, that would slow down or prevent this behavior.
In the above suggestions tho, the 'ante' doesn't exist, the idea is to simply prevent you from picking and choosing over and over until you have the obvious advantage. Take a time out and come back tomorrow.
Comments
...This mentality is the problem with this games community. The whole "i deserve something for everything i do" is ridiculous here. Yes, its an MMO, yes, it should reward for things, no it should not cater to people who have this self entitled attitude. The changes are to make botting less attractive and not worth it. People that leave matches because they are losing and want to try to get into another match are funny. What happens when you get a bunch of them in a row? Now you've wasted so much more of your own time trying to get into a winning match that you just lost out on a bunch of honor you could have got just from spending the extra 10mins it takes for a 5 man team to beat a 3 man team. BTW, i have won matches as a 3 man team against a 5 man. it is very difficult but not unheard of.
Now what happens when you put afkers in the mix. The team that has an afkers or the most of them will get HAMSTER and destroy any benefit the losing group might receive. Players on the losing team that played will have to bite the bullet until the afkers start realizing they dont get anything from doing so then the problem should fix itself.
What about quiters ... quiters should forego all glory for the match and be unable to Q for the lenght of the current match + 15 minutes. Since the PVP events are pretty short this should discourage this kind of behaviour without having people resort to AFKing since it would still not reward them since it would make their team lose badly leading to them receiving next to no reward.
Daily PVP quest credit should be awarded for scores of over 750 only (or another performance floor). So you dont penalize the losing team if they gave a fair fight, but afkers and quiters wont get credit. No match should award 2 credit (might be a bug).
Why is this suggestion so good? Because I am tired of whiny emos complaining to resolve issues in PUGs, cause they whine when their fun is ruined forgetting the guy leaving is having his fun ruined in the process. It isn't always the reward, its just the time wasted in the process continuing a pointless pursuit when its plainly obvious you are going to lose..there is just no **** reason to continue when you have logically weighed in the parameters and realize that your not going to win, might as well end it quickly.
Unlike the rest of the human race, I know my abilities and if I believe this isn't a winning match I will give up graciously but no reason should they be penalized. Its like playing cards, if you fold when suddenly the pot becomes to high and you look at your cards when you know its a crappy hand...****, why should I feed more chips to the table? Yeah, to bad no other MMO has a "folding card" option but plenty of whiner video gamers who ***** and whine when someone folds their cards.
Interesting analogy.
What's the 'ante' here in PvP tho.
Takes us back to the zero sum concept.
If, after a certain level, you had to 'deposit' something (glory points perhaps), and they would be handed to the winning team if you choose to fold, that might work.
If we go with a poker analogy, particularly a Texas Hold'em one, then you have small blind and big blind and ante in play. Each new match is the 'luck of the draw'. If you are small blind and draw a 7 2 offsuit, you probably have no chance. Fold, and lose your ante and small blind.
What happens when you are 'bust' tho, that's a different question. Perhaps keep this analogy in play, put up some astral diamonds in place of the points as your 'buy in' for a PvP match?
also what will happen to those games where the score is close (999 to 950 etc) will the loser still get nothing in that case? because that would suck even harder... stick around to the end fighting a fun, close game and get @#$% for it?? ridiculous
How's not having bots on your team because there's no reason to bot anymore for a reward?
Hell, I'd take that deal in a heartbeat. Here, take my glory, take my XP, take all the rewards. Just give me actual PvP.
Seriously though, tongue in cheek aside, I think you're missing the point of these changes even though you're looking directly at it. And the point of PvP itself, at that.
You complain that you'll have to sit through a hopeless match due to bots on your team and not even get anything for your trouble. But you won't have to deal with bots because there'll be no point to botting pvp anymore. You complain that you won't even be able to leave a 3v5 due to punishment. But there won't be a 3v5 anymore if there's a significant punishment for leaving/afking. (Oh, and the irony of complaining about not being able to leave due to leavers)
As for your insistence that everything must have a reward... first of all, that's just not the case as it is. If you don't complete the quest objectives, you don't get the quest rewards. If you don't beat the boss, you don't get the boss loot. Sure, you'll get some random trash drops and copper coins along the way, but nothing of real value. But there's a whole different issue here, on top of all that...
PvP is not a quest. And PvP is not a boss encounter. You should not grind PvP. And you should not farm PvP. You shouldn't even be able to do that. That's not what its for and that is not its purpose. If that's how you see PvP, you have no business going into PvP matches. And if the current PvP reward system encourages you to see PvP this way and to try to farm it, then that only underlines the fact that the reward system needs some serious revision. And possibly that there needs to be more variety in PvE farming opportunities, so you don't feel driven to farm PvP in the first place.
PvP is about the challenge and PvP is about the Glory. No, not the points. But the accomplishment of overcoming a worthy adversary. Of outsmarting a smart opponent. You should be able to relish the feeling of victory. And you should be able to learn from the mistakes that lead to defeat. The experience itself should be rewarding, win or lose, or you shouldn't be doing it. Or it has no purpose.
Anyway, I'm going to stop myself here... I didn't mean to get so ranty when I started writing this, and I apologize if it comes off rather harsh. But I think it does need to be said. PvP is not PvE, nor should it be, nor can it be, nor does it need to be. They're different types of content for different types of players, and you shouldn't try to force one to conform to your expectations that are based on the other. Ask for more PvE content to farm. Ask for more sources of daily AD. Ask for more forms of accessible T1 gear. But don't ask for PvP to be more like PvE in terms of farmability and rewards.
Ellie my dear, you are a genius.
Dig this. A two tiered PVP structure, one that costs nothing to join and works just like PVP does now, bots and all, but for much lower rewards.
Then a second tier with a buy-in that goes to the winners. Botting there will just lower the chances the bot will get anything and since there is a pay-in the bot actually stands to lose their goodies.
You can get the points to join the latter in the prior and all the bots can just bot with each other. It becomes much less lucrative to bot since everyone is playing for the scratch to join the second tier anyway because that
loser still get something, just not as much (as I understand it)
People in general are lazy (usually) they want to get max gain for little work. The trick is finding that medium that make all party happy.
Couple of things that "might work" in PvP
- participation level. Are you capping? fighting? defending? SWTOR has defend point when guarding a node.
- If you just defend (bot) you get some reward (minimal)
- If you defend and attack (logged) after certain threshold, you get more reward (even losing)
- If you attack (taking a node/killing players) you also get more points and higher reward.
so in either side, if you win, you get a bonus across the board, but if you lose, then the top participating+defending get reward also (just without the bonus)
so if you are in a 3v5, you are working your butt off, you will get decent reward.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
Very very good point. You're on a roll Chai!
In fact - if you leave, you're done PvPin' for the day. That will stop the horse dootin' right there.
Afk farm penalty timer. If you're team is caught napping, 7 day penalty. Twice, you're account is up for review.
How bout that?
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I like the sound of that. Where do I sign up?
But what about when the teleporter breaks and you don't get ported in? Or are we counting on that system being fixed? Because I would feel back if I was a dead weight on my team because I wasn't popped into the instance, but couldn't quit because then I wouldn't be able to play any more.
That's a different issue. I'd put the code monkeys to work right away if it was up to me. Cleaning up pvp - cleans up the game for the entire community.
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How very disappointing that no one seems to be interested in making PVP more engaging and fun. We just want to punish someone, stick it to them.
But why be surprised. This is PVP we are talking about.
So fine, ways to harm others for leaving a match and not letting you beat on them. We have alrady discussed the obvious.
Give them a temp title “Loser”, “Quitter”, “Coward”, that will give daddy something to be proud of.
Send a message to the server just like you do with those repulsive lock boxes. “Magyar552 has fled the battlefield in Shame!”
In CoH the NPCs would talk about you when they walked by. Have that happen here. “Did you hear about Teneb663? Yeah ran like a little girl I heard.”
Attach the sound of a crying baby to their character for a time.
Develop a PVP tutorial video and force them to watch it if they leave a match early.
Half their health score until they successfully win a match
This all sounds like a great way to keep customers doesn’t it. Let’s alienate and exclude as many people as possible until only people like YOU remain.
The goal of any shortsighted human being.
LOL! Why would punishing cheaters alienate anyone playing the game with integrity? Cheaters don't pay for games. No loss if they leave. No "title necessary", the shame is self inflicted. The morale boost for the great majority of the playerbase, which does play honestly is worth it. Happy customers tend to open their wallets.
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Isn't the real problem that your matching system is about as dependable as FEMA due to it not having directives that would produce better matchups IE: GS, kill/death tracker, win/loss tracker, or some kind of ranking? I agree with the OP here in that your only shooting yourself in the foot with your biased opinion that a leaving penalty will actually stop people from leaving. you might wanna take a note from WoW. They thought the same thing but I bet you the leave due to losing ratio is still the same it was back in Vanilla/BC/WoTLK.
PS: Lowering the glory for the losing team is gonna make it worse.
Not going to happen. Too many of the younger crowd would have an uproar. Just look at the thread which called for penalizing leaving for prime examples.
'Don't punish bad behavior, reward good behavior' *shakes head and laughs*
The best thing I every got when I was young was my behind handed to me, Tabasco Sauce when I said naughty words and time outs. I got rewarded for good behavior too but when it comes down to it the only reason I avoided bad behavior was because I got penalized for it.
Reward good behavior all you want, but when it comes down to it without a penalty there's no reason to avoid the bad.
Look at it this way, people don't follow laws because they're supposed to or are rewarded for doing so. They do so to avoid the punishments for breaking the law.
It's "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time" not "Don't do the crime if you want your candy!"
Because ALL of the content in a game has to be custom tailored to YOUR liking and should by no means be designed for people with a different view on things, right?
See, I can play the "make the other guy look selfish" game too. But it doesn't make for a very productive discussion, does it?
People are making these suggestions precisely because they want to "make PvP more engaging and fun". We just don't find playing with and against bots engaging or fun. We also don't find our teammates whining and leaving engaging or fun.
The fact is, there are plenty of things to do in the game if quitting halfway through is your thing. And, hey, no judgment. If you don't want to keep doing something that you don't find fun, that's a perfectly valid position to have. As long as doing so doesn't adversely affect other people. And it does in PvP. Very much so. So, if you're not willing to see it through to the end, perhaps PvP is just not your cup of tea. Your second paragraph seems to convey that you view PvP with some disdain anyway.
So let us have our PvP the way we like it, and enjoy the other parts of the game the way you like them.
How very disappointing that no one seems to be interested in making PVP more engaging and fun. We just want to punish someone, stick it to them.
But why be surprised. This is PVP we are talking about.
So fine, ways to harm others for leaving a match and not letting you beat on them. We have alrady discussed the obvious.
Give them a temp title “Loser”, “Quitter”, “Coward”, that will give daddy something to be proud of.
Send a message to the server just like you do with those repulsive lock boxes. “Magyar552 has fled the battlefield in Shame!”
In CoH the NPCs would talk about you when they walked by. Have that happen here. “Did you hear about Teneb663? Yeah ran like a little girl I heard.”
Attach the sound of a crying baby to their character for a time.
Develop a PVP tutorial video and force them to watch it if they leave a match early.
Half their heath score until they successfully win a match
This all sounds like a great way to keep customers doesn’t it. Let’s alienate and exclude as many people as possible until only people like YOU remain.
The goal of any shortsighted human being.
Do tell how leaving a match because they're losing is cheating? Actually where in this post does he even mention the word cheat/cheater/cheating?
Pretty much the PvP game I see 99% of the time. Free Astral Diamonds! Free Glory! Just walk into walls! Having the winner or looser gain more or less Glory is not all that important because most of the glory gear isn't all that great to begin with.
Most Bots are doing it because it requires 0 effort for more than 0 rewards... Free power leveling for those less then level 60. No matter how you structure the reward system as long as there is the possibility that you will get some reward of any kind it is worth walking into walls for...
This will have ZERO effect on the overall bot, afk, walking into walls, etc issues...
The reality is many are leaving just to re-queue. I dont care what you call it, it's beating/working the system. System needs to be changed.
Now I'm all up for protecting the innocent, so lets start with who would get affected that's not trying to circumvent the system to their advantage, and a solution to minimize their impact.
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This is a great idea. Except change the word "win" for "play".
As in, get off the campfire and play out the match. If you leave, you pay out the entire glory reward for the entire match to both teams, plus a fine to the team you screwed. Make is "ball crushingly kick to the groin" how obvious it is that you committed to playing the match when you queued, now suck it up and play the match right to the end.
Obviously, that's just as stupid an idea as the post I snipped that from, but I think it shows a viewpoint---play out your matches and don't quit. If you're quitting half your matches and your teams never seem to win.....maybe you ought to play them out and get some practice in, the problem just might be you.
Without bots and quitters, the matches all start at 5vs5(barring DC, and assuming that the patch fixes the "didn't load in" bug), eliminating any of the nonsense about being undermanned in the first place. A leaver penalty would be a really good start.
Cheating is a strong word...
But leaving a losing game to requeue into another match game is, as Aandre said, working the system and is something basically every PvP system has to prevent. Just one example is league of legends. You leave and you can't join again. If you consistently leave you will be banned.
Leaving rewards one person and one person only: the leaver.
PvP enjoyment should come directly from the challenge. An easy win feels good occasionally but winning because of a 5v4 (or less) as a common occurrence leaves everybody unsatisfied.
So as I keep saying any system needs a forgiveness factor...
But allowing people to leave just because they are losing and then joining into another match while your former team is forced to lose is not an acceptable behavior no matter what way you try to spin it. Nobody likes to lose but somebody has to and it can't be because somebody decided to rage quit or sit in the base.
Of course these need to be improved:
Matching based on Gear Score
Matching based on the number of pre-mades vs randoms
Balancing class grouping
A surrender function
Failing to Port
-
But rage quitting or sitting in the base against the groups wishes shouldn't be tolerated by any PvP system let alone rewarded as it currently is.
1) Glory points
2) Astral Diamonds from daily quest
3) Experience points for characters 1-59
Not sure if I missed any... If #1, #2 or #3 is possible rewards for doing nothing productive in PvP (walking into walls, AFK, etc) then you will NEVER have any meaningful impact on stopping people from doing it. If I can get rewarded for doing nothing while others people do something why would I not take advantage of it?
Plus with the new patch you will not have the ability to REMOVE ME FROM THE GROUP for any reason, guaranteeing me a potential reward. No matter what ideas you have about quitter penalties, reduced glory rewards, etc if I can get something for nothing there will be people who will do it.
It's just a fact...
And if the penalty is too weak, or in this case non-existent, causing too many players to leave/AFK then nobody has fun.
I think WoW experimented with a "Deserter" debuff. 30 Mins you can't re-queue in the pvp battlegrounds or arena if you quit in the middle of a match. They eventually lower it to 20 minutes due to "complaints".
So your wanting to punish people for "beating/working" a broken system that you put out because they found a way to get better gains? Sounds like when that Microsoft employee told people to "Deal with it" because the xbox one slapped on a ton of restrictions. What happened there? People decided to go to the other system. Before handing out restrictions how about taking a step back and looking at WHY they decided to do the things they did and how to fix it.
You enter a free heads up tournament. You sit down across from a Phil Ivey or other world class player. You can be fairly sure you're going to lose, so you walk away. You're DONE in that tournament.
Alternatively, you sit down across from someone who didn't even bother to show up, but his chips are on the table. You simply play the cards, raising every time. Absent player automatically folds. You move on to the next round. If you 'rage quit' because the other guy didn't show up then there's a slim chance you won't win because you run out of chips for the big blind first.
Here, the analogy develops into "You walked away", since there's no 'buy in' you get to sit at a different table. The idea here is to put a delay in place so you can't simply keep walking away and sitting at a different table until you get one you happen to like.
If we had an 'ante' for entering PvP, that would slow down or prevent this behavior.
In the above suggestions tho, the 'ante' doesn't exist, the idea is to simply prevent you from picking and choosing over and over until you have the obvious advantage. Take a time out and come back tomorrow.