I willingly admit that i don't play to help the needy, and that i think my time is at least as valuable as the time of my teammates. Like normal people do. Call that selfishness if you want, but i see no reason to reward people with inferior gear. Life isn't fair, work isn't fair, love isn't fair, why would games be fair?
If we followed that way of thinking there wouldnt be a reason to improve life fairness, there wouldnt be a reason to improve work conditions and improve salaries... no reason for many things...
Everything flows to a better, more just and improved conditions.
So.. i think your point there wasn't well achieved :P
In any case i don't call it selfish, i just call it different. I'm quite a respectful guy i think so i don't enter is judgements of values and such.
But i do think we all have to work to improve not to let things as they are.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Neverwinter books
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asashiroMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The thing is, even if it had 0 value, people are going to need to prevent the others from profiting/using it. This suggestion has more down sides over any positives it brings.
Pros:
~Self entitled player gets a chance at what he wants (not needs)
Cons:
~Time taken from important issues to put this in
~Less gear on market
~Less of a reason to actually do dungeons, which then spirals into more problems down the road
The last two cons only become an issue to people who would use the system incorrectly. Greed would still leave the item BoE and the change would push people from rolling need on items they really don't need. Items propperly won by greed would still end up on the AH. Same incentives to run dungeons as there are now: delves, potential gear upgrades, and a 1/5 chance at greeding loot to sell.
PS: we are entering more on personal values debate then the thread :P
Let's get back to the point please.
One other issue for keeping this alive.
Another reason for all of this can come from another perspective.
Sooner or later, better gear will come to the game and everyone will need it. At that time, it is even better to have this idea implemented, then getting your gear stolen... to force you to steal someone elses gear... so you can sell your piece and then buy the piece the other guy stole you...
Wouldnt it be more simple and more fair that you and the other guy got the stuff you noth need at the first time? instead of the mambo jumbo with the AD to reach the same point almost?
i think simple is better and this is a simple solution, reasonably possible and better then the one that exists.
I'll quote myself from a thread discussing the same issue:
Now tell me why someone who has the Greaves or whatever should ever set foot in Frozen Heart again? Get used to it, at endgame people run t2 dungeons for items to sell on the ah (aka earning AD). If there are two of my class in a dungeon I will need on set pieces (for my class) even if I have them. Everything else that drops in the instance is worthless, it's only that one drop people want, either for wearing or for selling. What's the alternative? I just pass it to every random pugger that happens to not have it and I will never see again? What was the point of me coming there in the first place? I full expect to get hit by this every time I go to CN, I don't expect the other DC to pass on the ancient symbol for me just because he has it already. Why would he come to CN ever again?
Basically if there are 2 people of the same class in your team, expect a 50% chance to win the drop. If you don't think this is fair, then you don't know what fairness means. This is as pure as fairness gets, while your method is not fair at all, it's charity. This doesn't effect DD chests which is where 80% of the loot comes from anyway.
Now the loot system is pretty much as perfect as it's gonna get as far as I'm concerned. People can't ninja other classes items anymore, and they have a 100% fair chance of winning loot within their class.
The only caveat is that different classes items are not worth the same, but that can't be fixed unless you share the sale of the item evenly (hard to do without taking extra AH overhead/you knowing everyone you team with) or everyone needs everything (this is 100% fair, just distributes the loot poorly).
Now I generally greed on things the other DC might use anyway, and care about my reputation and am kind, help new players etc. This isn't greed. It's a question of why would anyone repeat content they have the loot from if they get nothing out of it? Having to find a group of people who have everything to group with (and to bandaid over the glaring flaw in your logic) is not really easy and frankly, a stupid "solution" for a non-existant problem.
The less value the item has, the less incentive people have to steal it.
and that is a "pros"
your "Pros" has nothing to do with this idea cause what you say is a positive thing, is something that already happens, and will happen according to your statment.
The negative sides you present are basicly not true.
Time taken? the systems this involves are already in game... no need to create anything this is a simple solution with what exists in the game.
Less gear on market? thats a good thing for 2 reasons. Less gear means higher prices for those who want to sell it. those who want the gear have a bigger chance (since less people will need just for stealing it since there is less incentive to do so) therefor they have a solution regarding the overpriced items in the market
Less reason to do dungeons? quite the opposite, if people stand a better chance of getting the items they need... they hare more willing to go there then they would if they expected to be ninjaed.
So... every thing can be seen differently from different people.
And i still think my idea has an easy way to be implemented, still think it won't fix all problems (actualy i think that impossible) and the results of this idea are still an improvement possible under the time left for the game launch.
You're talking from the poor guy in need perspective. I'm talking from another perspective: I'm a skilled player and i'm lucky, have almost all the T2 gear i want (yes, i say WANT not NEED, no one ever needs anything in games), and i still run T2 dungeons. Why? Getting ADs to buy my enchants.
Now if the change you want to see in game is implemented, then i have little reasons to play T2s. I can't get my ADs. Sure, i can get gold, but that's it. It means one good player not in the queues anymore, and frankly, there's nothing much to do currently in this game, except pvp but the two same maps over and over.. .You got it. If you can't sell drops, there's no more reason to play this game currently if you're more or less done with your gear, except for the pay to win parts you have to buy from RL spenders.
This is why i'm quite optimistic about that. It's not going to happen. Cryptic makes too much money from ADs and the AH is a vital component of the AD economy. It keeps good players in game, dungeons runs are smoother, people are happy and they can still run during DD event to get their own loot if they want to. This looks pretty healthy to me and your ideological proposal has little chance to be in game with the current state of the game. Because all that matters here is the bottom line and profits, and for once, this is helping good players, and i won't complain about that.
I want to add one other thing to this general idea.
Many people are still considering only 5 man groups.
well there will be more then just 5 man groups where more then 1 of each class will be in that group
For example 20 man = in a friendly average, 4 of each class.
People who already got the item (or better) can still Need it, while the other 3 get nothing AND they REALLY NEEDED it, and he can still sell it for AD.
i do honestly think this solution will still make people sell things for AD but by GREEDING it not needing.
Or if a 5-man group has less than 5 classes present. Same thing can happen, unless Cryptic make a change so "need" actually means need.
As for "eventually an item will drop for your class," I wouldn't be surprised if the loot tables aren't exactly balanced, leaving some classes a slimmer chance of getting anything in a particular dungeon. Even if they are, in the real (virtual) world probability doesn't work like that.
It might be a bit cynical, but if people take advantage in PuGs then the "greed" button may as well not exist.
The less value the item has, the less incentive people have to steal it.
and that is a "pros"
your "Pros" has nothing to do with this idea cause what you say is a positive thing, is something that already happens, and will happen according to your statment.
The negative sides you present are basicly not true.
Time taken? the systems this involves are already in game... no need to create anything this is a simple solution with what exists in the game.
Less gear on market? thats a good thing for 2 reasons. Less gear means higher prices for those who want to sell it. those who want the gear have a bigger chance (since less people will need just for stealing it since there is less incentive to do so) therefor they have a solution regarding the overpriced items in the market
Less reason to do dungeons? quite the opposite, if people stand a better chance of getting the items they need... they hare more willing to go there then they would if they expected to be ninjaed.
So... every thing can be seen differently from different people.
And i still think my idea has an easy way to be implemented, still think it won't fix all problems (actualy i think that impossible) and the results of this idea are still an improvement possible under the time left for the game launch.
It will not stop them, having less benefit doesn't lead to a stop of something. A price increase on something you won't be able to sell because of a bunch of people needing is hardly a pro, it only becomes one if you're in a group with friends/guild, which again, having a group is the only fair solution. Games should not cater around the needy, it is those that put effort that should benefit, which is why I said :
People farming for profit is just as important player as that guy who is only trying to do the dungeon a couple times for his equipment.I am curious as to where this whole idea that the guy that claims to need something is more important than the person putting effort into profit?
Making changes just to make a portion of the player's play time "easier" while hurting those who are actually playing the game. Would also like to point out making thins easier for that group doesn't lead to a better game. If everyone got everything quickly there would be less of a reason to continue on playing for some of them.
Sooner or later, better gear will come to the game and everyone will need it. At that time, it is even better to have this idea implemented, then getting your gear stolen... to force you to steal someone elses gear... so you can sell your piece and then buy the piece the other guy stole you....
Just because x player needs z item doesn't mean they own it. There are 5 people in a party and everyone is putting their fair share of effort into completing the run. It is only yours the moment you receive the item, not the moment it drops.
You're talking about being fair, then explain how is it fair that I do just as much, and possibly twice as much as that guy but he supposedly deserves the item and I don't?
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited June 2013
I really like this idea of making it bound to account this means that I could play my main class which is geared and I have a lot of fun playing and still roll need on gear for my other classes which would be bound to my account so I could never sell it and it can only be used on other characters.
Oh god, more whiner threads about that again. Didnt you guys acheave what you wanted? Now cryptic are removing the Need button on gear that is not for your class. That was the main point right? Well you got it! What more do you want? I dont think that Cryptic have to obay all your wishes cause you payed money for a F2P game. I didnt pay anything for the game and I still have full T2 gear with alot of work and luck. What more do you want? Why not make devs give us T2.5 gear and end it? As some people here stated, life is not fair.
BoE for everything. If its BoP or BoA there wount be any items in the AH and the existing once will be ridiculously overpriced /I can mention the T2 set Shadow Weaver and Im sure everyone know why its so high priced in the AH when a more powerful set like High Vizier is so cheap but does lots more to you/.
All in all, what will happen with runestones, shards and enchantments that drop? We all need them, why no need for them?
Now its time stop crying and start playing. You have DUngeon Delve hour right? You have a chest at the end right? It gives you items restricted to your class right? Just for you to have right? Answer those simple questions and you will know what is wrong with your stupid ideas.
Nope, need ADs. Sorry, roll need too and sell stuff you got.
All this change will do will make people like me needing for the vendor, which isn't the purpose of such a change. You don't want more expensive and rarer items do you? After all, gold still has some value.
Side note - I'll be sure to keep an eye out for you so I can thoroughly avoid grouping with you.
Back on topic,
NEED = only able to roll on the gear if it's for your class and BOP
GREED = anyone can hit greed no matter what the gear is, the item remains BOE, so it can be sold/traded
PASS = again, anyone can pass on an item
Current fix it's easy enough to see if that TR who just rolled need on a piece of TR gear is wearing the same or better already. You'll know never to group with them again OR boot them from the group immediately. At least unless you're another TR you'd know he can't do the same thing to your piece of gear you've been running that dungeon 15 times to acquire. The current change is a lukewarm solution and needs to be upped to BOP flagged items if you roll need on an item as that's the only way to fix the majority of the loot problems. No, it wouldn't fix EVERY single problem but it would fix most of them at least. Point is, this is a grouping game and unless the current fix is tweaked to address the majority of the problem (greedy ****heads rolling need on anything and everything to sell on auction house for AD or to vendor) most people wont do much grouping unless it's with friends/guildies and that isn't promoting gameplay, it's limiting it.
If you can't be constructive in your criticism, go back to world-of-whiners.
I'll quote myself from a thread discussing the same issue:
Well Greed isnt fixed by classes so you can sell not only your class things but other class things that no one needs and that are still valuable. So let's do some math
Your way 50% chance to get it if 2 of same class in the dungeon, 100% if you are alone, however restricted by your class. The Greed option won't work since items from other class drops, the guy from that class will need it either to use or to sell. So you have so those are the more realistic chances you may have. (i know there are others but i'm tryint to keep it simple with the most frequent cases)
My way.
5 people in group 1 item which means you greed and have a chance of 20%, however this will happen for all class gears therefor since there are 5 classes = 5x20% which means in acerage you will get an item in each 5 runs to sell. Problem (in your perspective) is that people with less gear will appear and will need it. You have 2 options.. group up with friends and assure your 1 item in each 5 runs or pug. If you pug in T2 content, the majority of people i see has most of the gear and is farming gold/AD (as you also stated) therefor there is surely a good chance that the item that drops will be greeded.
So for money making there isn't much difference and if you group up with geared people you will still get either a 100% chance in 1 of 5 runs if the drop is for your class, or the 20% chance in each run which in 5 runs gets to the average of 100% (in both cases is just simple statistics so not assured and no i'm not going to enter advance statistics in this debate lol)
For people with less gear would be an improvement, for making money it would be just a question of grouping up to secure the best possible loot chance as before or pug and have a simillar chance of the 50% chance as you stated.
If the other person(s) (should your group have more than 1 of your class) has the drop already and also wants to to get the AD then they would have to greed it as well if they make the need button BOP the items, totally leaving your options open. If they don't have it and need it and you ever run with them again then your chances of successfully completing the instance goes up cause now they have gear equal to the task so really your arguement is invalid.
satorusenpai hope you don't mind that i'm not quoting your post (it's large :P) but i will answer you with what i think.
"You're talking about being fair, then explain how is it fair that I do just as much, and possibly twice as much as that guy but he supposedly deserves the item and I don't?"
There are 2 ways to see this (based on my perspective)
One simple way is just to follow the word need compared to greed. Need is based on a thing (the item) beeing important enough for you to consider that you need it. Greed means you want the item to other ends (AD/gold).
However this is a poor way to see things even tho the Need before Greed is based on this ideal.
Now more gaming specific way to see it is based on results. And read my previous post where i speak of % of making money with this idea. In any case, you will never know if you placed twice the effort then the other guy or even if he placed twice the effort you did to get that item regardless of needing it or wating it. So i don't think that is the way to go here. Now about deserving, everyone plays the game for their own reasons, but generally everyone that makes Dungeons (T2 or not) is either because they just want to do something fun or to get gear. Regarding those who go there for gear (either to use it or to profit from it) want a chance of getting things. Now the guy who doesn't have that specific item needs it to use it besides wanting it (for gold or vanity) on the other hand, you just want it for gold or vanity since you already have it. Therefor he has more reasons to get that item then you do.
Well i think this thread is beeing worth it, several good arguements overall and some constructive ideas in it from other people.
I have to make a break tho but keep discussing it if you want.
I still believe this is a great idea and the more people have discussed it and i have seen many people supporting and even defending my idea has made me hope this can really happen.
In other way, most disagreements have been replied either from me or others and this idea (or variants of it) have been successfully justitied.
So keep comming either your approval or not and make questions as i will try to answer all of them as i truly believe i have a good idea here. (based on possible solutions in short time)
PS: Would also be nice that developers made some questions regarding this or other issues. No answers, just questions so we can also give directed feedback. at least on this issue i would
This is a pretty crazy thread. What I'm hearing from half the people is that rolling need on equipment you can't use when other people can use it is OK because you can sell it to get more money/AD.
Let's extend this example on to the real world.
Aid supplies given to countries are fair game to everyone (even rich politicians who don't need them) because anyone can benefit from selling them.
Food rationing in war and disasters should be fair game to everyone because anyone can benefit from selling the food.
In my job, if I need certain access to subscription articles or software licenses TO DO MY JOB, everyone in my department should have a chance at it even if they already have it, because they can sell it to someone not even in my company and make some money.
Can we list the people who believe this so I never have to work wi... I mean party with them?
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kerlaaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yes so one that is on endgame and finished all his set can't earn more Ad from drops.
Guys you got no brain
That is what the GREED option is there for.
This gets my +1 support.
This would also help with eliminating the problem of items flooding the AH thus driving the price down to nothing. Think about it if something like this wasn't in place and you to NEED roll an item away from someone that actually needed it just so u could see it on the AH it would bring far less then it could if the supply of said item was less. Its all about supply and demand. If supply is to high then less ppl demand it and the price crashes.
Still haven't heard a single reason for geared people to go back to an instance (assuming 2 of that class) if the other person is missing the piece that drops there. If you can't see how that is a problem considering the lack of content in NW, or make up ridiculous workarounds like only grouping with people who have everything, you are honestly beyond help.
Also there is approx two people in this thread besides myself that seems to understand what fairness actually entails. Turning the argument on it's head all I'm hearing is greedy people who doesn't have the item complaing that the other person who spent just as much time in the instance won't give them more than 50% chance for the item (that 50% chance which is the very definition of fairness). Giving up the loot to the other guy is charity, not fairness. And frankly, in pugs, it's every man for himself.
Still haven't heard a single reason for geared people to go back to an instance (assuming 2 of that class) if the other person is missing the piece that drops there. If you can't see how that is a problem considering the lack of content in NW, or make up ridiculous workarounds like only grouping with people who have everything, you are honestly beyond help.
Also there is approx two people in this thread besides myself that seems to understand what fairness actually entails. Turning the argument on it's head all I'm hearing is greedy people who doesn't have the item complaing that the other person who spent just as much time in the instance won't give them more than 50% chance for the item (that 50% chance which is the very definition of fairness). Giving up the loot to the other guy is charity, not fairness. And frankly, in pugs, it's every man for himself.
This!
Case closed, move on, deal with it.
To the poster who gave examples from real life: games are designed by people, life is designed by peoples needs. Nothing is fair and if you dont play by the rules, you are a done deal. Get it? Dont think you can change the rules for yourself. If you dont like how the devs made the game, you have the right to uninstall it, delete your account and never come back. Am I right? I like it the way it is and I dont want it to change just to make a group of kids happy. I dont think any of the people I rank dungeons with /I am not talking about the people from the community I am in/ will say a bad word about me being fair to everyone and I warn someone before I kick him out of the group. I am running mostly Dungeon Delves and if someone chooses need on item who is not for his class, I warn him/her. If he do it again, I kick him and hes left with no chest at the end.
Oh god, more whiner threads about that again. Didnt you guys acheave what you wanted? Now cryptic are removing the Need button on gear that is not for your class. That was the main point right? Well you got it! What more do you want? I dont think that Cryptic have to obay all your wishes cause you payed money for a F2P game. I didnt pay anything for the game and I still have full T2 gear with alot of work and luck. What more do you want? Why not make devs give us T2.5 gear and end it? As some people here stated, life is not fair.
BoE for everything. If its BoP or BoA there wount be any items in the AH and the existing once will be ridiculously overpriced /I can mention the T2 set Shadow Weaver and Im sure everyone know why its so high priced in the AH when a more powerful set like High Vizier is so cheap but does lots more to you/.
All in all, what will happen with runestones, shards and enchantments that drop? We all need them, why no need for them?
Now its time stop crying and start playing. You have DUngeon Delve hour right? You have a chest at the end right? It gives you items restricted to your class right? Just for you to have right? Answer those simple questions and you will know what is wrong with your stupid ideas.
I've read the big patch notes and i don't think the Need/Greed system intended will solve anything, or at least it will solve one issue and create another.
Currently with the changes people can't need on items they cannot use and that is a good thing imo, however it will create another problem. People who Need on thigs to sell on Auctions still can do the same "ninja looting" but this time only for their class items however, usually without competition so it's sort of free AD for them.
Now if you make items won with Need option become bound to account or character (altho i think BoA is good enough) this will still give people who really NEED an item, to press Need win it and use it, but if they want to sell that item on Auctions, they really need to press Greed and it makes sense... Greed = not needing but wanting the money that item is worth.
Really hope you can change this Cryptic as i think it's more fair for everyone and unables alot of ninja looting.
I wrote a post a while back about the same thing. Had a lot of hits
People would still do it just to troll/grief and there won't be nothing you or anyone can do about. Oh and Cryptic or PWE won't stop it.
Let them then. !@#$. At least with the proposed changes they'd be wasting their own time as well instead of getting rewarded for it with the current system.
Let them then. !@#$. At least with the proposed changes they'd be wasting their own time as well instead of getting rewarded for it with the current system.
Untell whole guilds who hate it start it and it end up where stuff sell for 50m+ because there no more items on the market .
To the poster who gave examples from real life: games are designed by people, life is designed by peoples needs. Nothing is fair and if you dont play by the rules, you are a done deal. Get it? Dont think you can change the rules for yourself. If you dont like how the devs made the game, you have the right to uninstall it, delete your account and never come back. Am I right? I like it the way it is and I dont want it to change just to make a group of kids happy. I dont think any of the people I rank dungeons with /I am not talking about the people from the community I am in/ will say a bad word about me being fair to everyone and I warn someone before I kick him out of the group. I am running mostly Dungeon Delves and if someone chooses need on item who is not for his class, I warn him/her. If he do it again, I kick him and hes left with no chest at the end.
That's your view on it, that's how you want to play the game, and I'm perfectly fine with that. That's how you think the game should be played, and you should play it that way. However, to say that the Devs know the rules of the game that they created... I think that's a bit of a stretch. Software, even good software have vulnerabilities, exploits, and need fixes - which is why we have patches. You have your position I have mine.
As for the argument:
Still haven't heard a single reason for geared people to go back to an instance (assuming 2 of that class) if the other person is missing the piece that drops there. If you can't see how that is a problem considering the lack of content in NW, or make up ridiculous workarounds like only grouping with people who have everything, you are honestly beyond help.
If everyone has done their part, I'd rather gear someone who's under-geared so they have the chance to go into higher level dungeons and get even more gear. That way we have more good players doing high level dungeons and the game will be more fun and there will be a greater community. If someone leaves the game for another one, there will be another high leveled player to pick up the slack. The game will be more enjoyable as a whole. That would be the reason to gear other people - not for charity - but to have more people to have access to the endgame so that we can all enjoy it as a community.
If you want diamonds, you should increase the existing pool of diamonds so that there's more for everyone: by doing dailies, Skirmishes etc. What happens when you sell equipment is that you're not increasing the pool, but actually decreasing it because of the cut that the auction house takes. Then again, if you believe that the point of this game is to be at the top with a lot of people under you, then... This will concentrate the amount of diamonds to high level/geared account/characters with a good deal of slaves (low level/no gear people) working to give you those diamonds from their dailies or buying it with a pack/zen. Which, if you take the cynical point of view, is what the developers are aiming for.
That's your view on it, that's how you want to play the game, and I'm perfectly fine with that. That's how you think the game should be played, and you should play it that way. However, to say that the Devs know the rules of the game that they created... I think that's a bit of a stretch. Software, even good software have vulnerabilities, exploits, and need fixes - which is why we have patches. You have your position I have mine.
As for the argument:
If everyone has done their part, I'd rather gear someone who's under-geared so they have the chance to go into higher level dungeons and get even more gear. That way we have more good players doing high level dungeons and the game will be more fun and there will be a greater community. If someone leaves the game for another one, there will be another high leveled player to pick up the slack. The game will be more enjoyable as a whole. That would be the reason to gear other people - not for charity - but to have more people to have access to the endgame so that we can all enjoy it as a community.
If you want diamonds, you should increase the existing pool of diamonds so that there's more for everyone: by doing dailies, Skirmishes etc. What happens when you sell equipment is that you're not increasing the pool, but actually decreasing it because of the cut that the auction house takes. Then again, if you believe that the point of this game is to be at the top with a lot of people under you, then... This will concentrate the amount of diamonds to high level/geared account/characters with a good deal of slaves (low level/no gear people) working to give you those diamonds from their dailies or buying it with a pack/zen. Which, if you take the cynical point of view, is what the developers are aiming for.
Dailies don't give enough AD to be worth it. You'll never afford anything doing them. Especially since you can't even do skirmishes at 60.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
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kerlaaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yeah see there a reason to need on everything. Wait what ? How does less of an item= lower prices , it doesn't it rises prices a lot.
I think it about time the D&D table top player to just go as they don't just understand how this game work .:rolleyes:
Was commenting that the current flooding of the AH with an overflowing supply of T1-2 items is what is driving the price down. By making NEED rolled items they would be taken out of the market cycle thus lowering the supply (higher prices for those selling them, larger profit).
Comments
If we followed that way of thinking there wouldnt be a reason to improve life fairness, there wouldnt be a reason to improve work conditions and improve salaries... no reason for many things...
Everything flows to a better, more just and improved conditions.
So.. i think your point there wasn't well achieved :P
In any case i don't call it selfish, i just call it different. I'm quite a respectful guy i think so i don't enter is judgements of values and such.
But i do think we all have to work to improve not to let things as they are.
The last two cons only become an issue to people who would use the system incorrectly. Greed would still leave the item BoE and the change would push people from rolling need on items they really don't need. Items propperly won by greed would still end up on the AH. Same incentives to run dungeons as there are now: delves, potential gear upgrades, and a 1/5 chance at greeding loot to sell.
Let's get back to the point please.
One other issue for keeping this alive.
Another reason for all of this can come from another perspective.
Sooner or later, better gear will come to the game and everyone will need it. At that time, it is even better to have this idea implemented, then getting your gear stolen... to force you to steal someone elses gear... so you can sell your piece and then buy the piece the other guy stole you...
Wouldnt it be more simple and more fair that you and the other guy got the stuff you noth need at the first time? instead of the mambo jumbo with the AD to reach the same point almost?
i think simple is better and this is a simple solution, reasonably possible and better then the one that exists.
Now I generally greed on things the other DC might use anyway, and care about my reputation and am kind, help new players etc. This isn't greed. It's a question of why would anyone repeat content they have the loot from if they get nothing out of it? Having to find a group of people who have everything to group with (and to bandaid over the glaring flaw in your logic) is not really easy and frankly, a stupid "solution" for a non-existant problem.
You're talking from the poor guy in need perspective. I'm talking from another perspective: I'm a skilled player and i'm lucky, have almost all the T2 gear i want (yes, i say WANT not NEED, no one ever needs anything in games), and i still run T2 dungeons. Why? Getting ADs to buy my enchants.
Now if the change you want to see in game is implemented, then i have little reasons to play T2s. I can't get my ADs. Sure, i can get gold, but that's it. It means one good player not in the queues anymore, and frankly, there's nothing much to do currently in this game, except pvp but the two same maps over and over.. .You got it. If you can't sell drops, there's no more reason to play this game currently if you're more or less done with your gear, except for the pay to win parts you have to buy from RL spenders.
This is why i'm quite optimistic about that. It's not going to happen. Cryptic makes too much money from ADs and the AH is a vital component of the AD economy. It keeps good players in game, dungeons runs are smoother, people are happy and they can still run during DD event to get their own loot if they want to. This looks pretty healthy to me and your ideological proposal has little chance to be in game with the current state of the game. Because all that matters here is the bottom line and profits, and for once, this is helping good players, and i won't complain about that.
Or if a 5-man group has less than 5 classes present. Same thing can happen, unless Cryptic make a change so "need" actually means need.
As for "eventually an item will drop for your class," I wouldn't be surprised if the loot tables aren't exactly balanced, leaving some classes a slimmer chance of getting anything in a particular dungeon. Even if they are, in the real (virtual) world probability doesn't work like that.
It might be a bit cynical, but if people take advantage in PuGs then the "greed" button may as well not exist.
Making changes just to make a portion of the player's play time "easier" while hurting those who are actually playing the game. Would also like to point out making thins easier for that group doesn't lead to a better game. If everyone got everything quickly there would be less of a reason to continue on playing for some of them.
Just because x player needs z item doesn't mean they own it. There are 5 people in a party and everyone is putting their fair share of effort into completing the run. It is only yours the moment you receive the item, not the moment it drops.
You're talking about being fair, then explain how is it fair that I do just as much, and possibly twice as much as that guy but he supposedly deserves the item and I don't?
BoE for everything. If its BoP or BoA there wount be any items in the AH and the existing once will be ridiculously overpriced /I can mention the T2 set Shadow Weaver and Im sure everyone know why its so high priced in the AH when a more powerful set like High Vizier is so cheap but does lots more to you/.
All in all, what will happen with runestones, shards and enchantments that drop? We all need them, why no need for them?
Now its time stop crying and start playing. You have DUngeon Delve hour right? You have a chest at the end right? It gives you items restricted to your class right? Just for you to have right? Answer those simple questions and you will know what is wrong with your stupid ideas.
Time to go to bed.GN!
Side note - I'll be sure to keep an eye out for you so I can thoroughly avoid grouping with you.
Back on topic,
NEED = only able to roll on the gear if it's for your class and BOP
GREED = anyone can hit greed no matter what the gear is, the item remains BOE, so it can be sold/traded
PASS = again, anyone can pass on an item
Current fix it's easy enough to see if that TR who just rolled need on a piece of TR gear is wearing the same or better already. You'll know never to group with them again OR boot them from the group immediately. At least unless you're another TR you'd know he can't do the same thing to your piece of gear you've been running that dungeon 15 times to acquire. The current change is a lukewarm solution and needs to be upped to BOP flagged items if you roll need on an item as that's the only way to fix the majority of the loot problems. No, it wouldn't fix EVERY single problem but it would fix most of them at least. Point is, this is a grouping game and unless the current fix is tweaked to address the majority of the problem (greedy ****heads rolling need on anything and everything to sell on auction house for AD or to vendor) most people wont do much grouping unless it's with friends/guildies and that isn't promoting gameplay, it's limiting it.
Well Greed isnt fixed by classes so you can sell not only your class things but other class things that no one needs and that are still valuable. So let's do some math
Your way 50% chance to get it if 2 of same class in the dungeon, 100% if you are alone, however restricted by your class. The Greed option won't work since items from other class drops, the guy from that class will need it either to use or to sell. So you have so those are the more realistic chances you may have. (i know there are others but i'm tryint to keep it simple with the most frequent cases)
My way.
5 people in group 1 item which means you greed and have a chance of 20%, however this will happen for all class gears therefor since there are 5 classes = 5x20% which means in acerage you will get an item in each 5 runs to sell. Problem (in your perspective) is that people with less gear will appear and will need it. You have 2 options.. group up with friends and assure your 1 item in each 5 runs or pug. If you pug in T2 content, the majority of people i see has most of the gear and is farming gold/AD (as you also stated) therefor there is surely a good chance that the item that drops will be greeded.
So for money making there isn't much difference and if you group up with geared people you will still get either a 100% chance in 1 of 5 runs if the drop is for your class, or the 20% chance in each run which in 5 runs gets to the average of 100% (in both cases is just simple statistics so not assured and no i'm not going to enter advance statistics in this debate lol)
For people with less gear would be an improvement, for making money it would be just a question of grouping up to secure the best possible loot chance as before or pug and have a simillar chance of the 50% chance as you stated.
"You're talking about being fair, then explain how is it fair that I do just as much, and possibly twice as much as that guy but he supposedly deserves the item and I don't?"
There are 2 ways to see this (based on my perspective)
One simple way is just to follow the word need compared to greed. Need is based on a thing (the item) beeing important enough for you to consider that you need it. Greed means you want the item to other ends (AD/gold).
However this is a poor way to see things even tho the Need before Greed is based on this ideal.
Now more gaming specific way to see it is based on results. And read my previous post where i speak of % of making money with this idea. In any case, you will never know if you placed twice the effort then the other guy or even if he placed twice the effort you did to get that item regardless of needing it or wating it. So i don't think that is the way to go here. Now about deserving, everyone plays the game for their own reasons, but generally everyone that makes Dungeons (T2 or not) is either because they just want to do something fun or to get gear. Regarding those who go there for gear (either to use it or to profit from it) want a chance of getting things. Now the guy who doesn't have that specific item needs it to use it besides wanting it (for gold or vanity) on the other hand, you just want it for gold or vanity since you already have it. Therefor he has more reasons to get that item then you do.
With bind on account you can use that item for alts... the inly thing you cannot do is sell it on AH
I have to make a break tho but keep discussing it if you want.
I still believe this is a great idea and the more people have discussed it and i have seen many people supporting and even defending my idea has made me hope this can really happen.
In other way, most disagreements have been replied either from me or others and this idea (or variants of it) have been successfully justitied.
So keep comming either your approval or not and make questions as i will try to answer all of them as i truly believe i have a good idea here. (based on possible solutions in short time)
PS: Would also be nice that developers made some questions regarding this or other issues. No answers, just questions so we can also give directed feedback. at least on this issue i would
Let's extend this example on to the real world.
Aid supplies given to countries are fair game to everyone (even rich politicians who don't need them) because anyone can benefit from selling them.
Food rationing in war and disasters should be fair game to everyone because anyone can benefit from selling the food.
In my job, if I need certain access to subscription articles or software licenses TO DO MY JOB, everyone in my department should have a chance at it even if they already have it, because they can sell it to someone not even in my company and make some money.
Can we list the people who believe this so I never have to work wi... I mean party with them?
That is what the GREED option is there for.
This gets my +1 support.
This would also help with eliminating the problem of items flooding the AH thus driving the price down to nothing. Think about it if something like this wasn't in place and you to NEED roll an item away from someone that actually needed it just so u could see it on the AH it would bring far less then it could if the supply of said item was less. Its all about supply and demand. If supply is to high then less ppl demand it and the price crashes.
Also there is approx two people in this thread besides myself that seems to understand what fairness actually entails. Turning the argument on it's head all I'm hearing is greedy people who doesn't have the item complaing that the other person who spent just as much time in the instance won't give them more than 50% chance for the item (that 50% chance which is the very definition of fairness). Giving up the loot to the other guy is charity, not fairness. And frankly, in pugs, it's every man for himself.
This!
Case closed, move on, deal with it.
To the poster who gave examples from real life: games are designed by people, life is designed by peoples needs. Nothing is fair and if you dont play by the rules, you are a done deal. Get it? Dont think you can change the rules for yourself. If you dont like how the devs made the game, you have the right to uninstall it, delete your account and never come back. Am I right? I like it the way it is and I dont want it to change just to make a group of kids happy. I dont think any of the people I rank dungeons with /I am not talking about the people from the community I am in/ will say a bad word about me being fair to everyone and I warn someone before I kick him out of the group. I am running mostly Dungeon Delves and if someone chooses need on item who is not for his class, I warn him/her. If he do it again, I kick him and hes left with no chest at the end.
Yeah see there a reason to need on everything.
I think it about time the D&D table top player to just go as they don't just understand how this game work .:rolleyes:
I can still move.
I can still fight.
I will never give up!
I wrote a post a while back about the same thing. Had a lot of hits
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?295442-Loot-ninjas-this-is-how-you-stop-them
The devs didnt listen. How hard could it be to have need rolls be bind to character and the vendor price zero.
That way everyone gets a chance to get loot to greed.
I can still move.
I can still fight.
I will never give up!
Let them then. !@#$. At least with the proposed changes they'd be wasting their own time as well instead of getting rewarded for it with the current system.
I can still move.
I can still fight.
I will never give up!
That's your view on it, that's how you want to play the game, and I'm perfectly fine with that. That's how you think the game should be played, and you should play it that way. However, to say that the Devs know the rules of the game that they created... I think that's a bit of a stretch. Software, even good software have vulnerabilities, exploits, and need fixes - which is why we have patches. You have your position I have mine.
As for the argument:
If everyone has done their part, I'd rather gear someone who's under-geared so they have the chance to go into higher level dungeons and get even more gear. That way we have more good players doing high level dungeons and the game will be more fun and there will be a greater community. If someone leaves the game for another one, there will be another high leveled player to pick up the slack. The game will be more enjoyable as a whole. That would be the reason to gear other people - not for charity - but to have more people to have access to the endgame so that we can all enjoy it as a community.
If you want diamonds, you should increase the existing pool of diamonds so that there's more for everyone: by doing dailies, Skirmishes etc. What happens when you sell equipment is that you're not increasing the pool, but actually decreasing it because of the cut that the auction house takes. Then again, if you believe that the point of this game is to be at the top with a lot of people under you, then... This will concentrate the amount of diamonds to high level/geared account/characters with a good deal of slaves (low level/no gear people) working to give you those diamonds from their dailies or buying it with a pack/zen. Which, if you take the cynical point of view, is what the developers are aiming for.
Dailies don't give enough AD to be worth it. You'll never afford anything doing them. Especially since you can't even do skirmishes at 60.
Was commenting that the current flooding of the AH with an overflowing supply of T1-2 items is what is driving the price down. By making NEED rolled items they would be taken out of the market cycle thus lowering the supply (higher prices for those selling them, larger profit).