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I have seen the light - and it is a GF played well

ebloodzebloodz Member Posts: 18 Arc User
edited May 2013 in PvE Discussion
Before last night, I used to cringe when a GF joined my team, instead of a rogue, cleric or CW. (GWF are just ambigous, they never die but they dont seem to do much either).

Usually GF's cant hold aggro at all, and chase after enemies that chase after the wizards and clerics, shouting "adds! adds!"

Not last night. There was a GF on my team that held perfect aggro throughout the dungeon (Karrundax). It was only once or twice a random mob got in my or the clerics face, and I was free to blast all the adds to pieces.

So, it is possible to hold aggro as GF, you just aint doing it right.
Post edited by ebloodz on
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Comments

  • golbleengolbleen Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    That's a well and good anecdote, except it doesn't mean anything to anyone if you can't actually explain what was being done to accomplish it so other people can try it out.
  • writerdgwriterdg Member Posts: 51
    edited May 2013
    Yes, it is very possible. If people would let the tank do his job, end bosses would be much easier. Most groups just won't listen though. I'm 60 GF and 95% of dungeons. I'm always the "Unmovable Object", or whatever it's called. Usually by at least 50% if not 100% plus more damage taken than anyone else. I also very rarely die unless my whole party gets wiped and I'm the only one left standing. A good tank can stay alive for a very long time, even by themselves. With a cleric watching your back and healing when needed, it's even better. Oh, and I'm usually in the top 3 in damage as well, no matter what other classes are in the group.

    The bottom line is GF is a great tank if you learn how to stat it and play it AND if people in the group will let you do your job.
    Kinset Drake - Lvl 60 GF - Legio Draconum Guild Leader - Mindflayer
  • amilolproamilolpro Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Hey!
    I'm not 60 GF at all, but as far as i see it - GF can hold aggro if ppl will hit the same target as he does. Is this working on 60? :)
  • griennegrienne Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    ebloodz wrote: »
    Before last night, I used to cringe when a GF joined my team, instead of a rogue, cleric or CW. (GWF are just ambigous, they never die but they dont seem to do much either).

    Usually GF's cant hold aggro at all, and chase after enemies that chase after the wizards and clerics, shouting "adds! adds!"

    Not last night. There was a GF on my team that held perfect aggro throughout the dungeon (Karrundax). It was only once or twice a random mob got in my or the clerics face, and I was free to blast all the adds to pieces.

    So, it is possible to hold aggro as GF, you just aint doing it right.

    So without further explanation this post is useless.
  • writerdgwriterdg Member Posts: 51
    edited May 2013
    Okay. Here's a simple way to hold aggro on a boss. GF initiates the attack by hitting the boss with Lunging Strike. Everyone else start hitting adds. No one touches the boss but the GF. The boss will only aggro the GF as long as he's hammering him with damage and no one else is. A good GF will pull most bosses away from the rest of the party. Some bosses are mostly ranged attacks and won't really follow you, but they'll still aim in your direction, so you can manipulate where their attacks are going.

    Whenever there is a break in the adds, everyone can pile hits on the boss, but as soon as adds pop, everyone leave him alone except the GF and go back to killing adds. GF may lose agrro for a few seconds after a burst of attacks from other party members, but when they stop attacking and GF stays relentlessly on him, the boss will turn all his attention back on the GF.

    Basically, just keep doing this pattern and have a cleric that will help keep the GF alive. If you block, stay out of reds and use Fighter's Recovery, you can keep yourself healed pretty well, but some hits are going to get through sometimes.

    So, to recap, basically, leave the boss alone and let the tank do his job. Especially rogues. Stop trying to be tanks. Rogues hit for more damage, so they pop in and hit the boss and draw aggro, then usually end up leading the boss into the middle of the adds because they can't stand in one place and take hits. Rogues are much more useful for quickly getting rid of all the adds, then they can help finish off the boss quickly once the adds are gone.
    Kinset Drake - Lvl 60 GF - Legio Draconum Guild Leader - Mindflayer
  • pilf3rpilf3r Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    writerdg wrote: »
    *snip*

    The bottom line is GF is a great tank if you learn how to stat it and play it AND if people in the group will let you do your job.

    The key words are this sentence here!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Neverwinter Thieves Guild
  • amilolproamilolpro Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Developers should add agrometer in game to let ppl know when they should stop damaging boss.
  • malakhglitchmalakhglitch Member Posts: 55
    edited May 2013
    That is a basic, and correct, way for the GF to hold aggro on the boss or the adds. The problem comes in when you take into account the synergy of the group as a whole. If the Rogue does not have threat-reducing Feats/Powers then he should avoid hitting the boss and focus on taking out adds. A Rogue that is speced to reduce threat from his attacks can partner with a GF to take down a boss easier while being supported by a Cleric and while the Wizard and GWF focus on getting rid of adds.

    The problem is not with the classes, it's in the way the people build their characters without taking into account team mechanics.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • diedel443diedel443 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    writerdg wrote: »
    Okay. Here's a simple way to hold aggro on a boss. GF initiates the attack by hitting the boss with Lunging Strike. Everyone else start hitting adds. No one touches the boss but the GF. The boss will only aggro the GF as long as he's hammering him with damage and no one else is. A good GF will pull most bosses away from the rest of the party. Some bosses are mostly ranged attacks and won't really follow you, but they'll still aim in your direction, so you can manipulate where their attacks are going.

    Whenever there is a break in the adds, everyone can pile hits on the boss, but as soon as adds pop, everyone leave him alone except the GF and go back to killing adds. GF may lose agrro for a few seconds after a burst of attacks from other party members, but when they stop attacking and GF stays relentlessly on him, the boss will turn all his attention back on the GF.

    Basically, just keep doing this pattern and have a cleric that will help keep the GF alive. If you block, stay out of reds and use Fighter's Recovery, you can keep yourself healed pretty well, but some hits are going to get through sometimes.

    So, to recap, basically, leave the boss alone and let the tank do his job. Especially rogues. Stop trying to be tanks. Rogues hit for more damage, so they pop in and hit the boss and draw aggro, then usually end up leading the boss into the middle of the adds because they can't stand in one place and take hits. Rogues are much more useful for quickly getting rid of all the adds, then they can help finish off the boss quickly once the adds are gone.

    Huh? So you ONLY tanked the boss and nothing else ? I doubt any GF can't handle that, especially if everybody else is nearly forbidden to hit him.
  • breagandaerthbreagandaerth Member Posts: 207 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Biggest problem I have seen for tanks are the other classes. Like the CW that likes to hit first before the tank has reached a set of mobs. Or the cleric doing the same thing. The game is new and for some it is a first mmo experience. But I also agree with the tanks that a change should be made for the aoe taunt. It should affect more than 5 targets at a time and the shield block needs to be client side.
  • golbleengolbleen Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Threat contests with overzealous rogues on single targets and bosses has never been the issue, and in fact, given the endgame group comp meta, having something 'tank the boss' isn't even necessary for survival. The issue has been the fact that it's inordinately hard, if not impossible for most groups not abusing control wizards, to keep adds off a cleric the second they start doing any remotely serious healing, which IS necessary for survival. That's the issue GF's (and some GWFs) are having.
  • breagandaerthbreagandaerth Member Posts: 207 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    diedel443 wrote: »
    Huh? So you ONLY tanked the boss and nothing else ? I doubt any GF can't handle that, especially if everybody else is nearly forbidden to hit him.

    Weird because when I read it, I felt he was trying to say everyone but tank clears trash then back on boss. I never read forbidden to hit anywhere in his statement. That is a strategy used in a lot of boss encounters in other mmo games.
  • steppenkatsteppenkat Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    writerdg wrote: »
    Okay. Here's a simple way to hold aggro on a boss. GF initiates the attack by hitting the boss with Lunging Strike. Everyone else start hitting adds. No one touches the boss but the GF. The boss will only aggro the GF as long as he's hammering him with damage and no one else is. A good GF will pull most bosses away from the rest of the party. Some bosses are mostly ranged attacks and won't really follow you, but they'll still aim in your direction, so you can manipulate where their attacks are going.

    Whenever there is a break in the adds, everyone can pile hits on the boss, but as soon as adds pop, everyone leave him alone except the GF and go back to killing adds. GF may lose agrro for a few seconds after a burst of attacks from other party members, but when they stop attacking and GF stays relentlessly on him, the boss will turn all his attention back on the GF.

    Basically, just keep doing this pattern and have a cleric that will help keep the GF alive. If you block, stay out of reds and use Fighter's Recovery, you can keep yourself healed pretty well, but some hits are going to get through sometimes.

    So, to recap, basically, leave the boss alone and let the tank do his job. Especially rogues. Stop trying to be tanks. Rogues hit for more damage, so they pop in and hit the boss and draw aggro, then usually end up leading the boss into the middle of the adds because they can't stand in one place and take hits. Rogues are much more useful for quickly getting rid of all the adds, then they can help finish off the boss quickly once the adds are gone.

    Except that if you pop an Astral Shield and let a TR do the tanking, he can hold the boss better => better Crits which hold and generate more threat, unbugged skills, can dodge AoEs, dishes more DPS than the GF, mitigates the same due to the AS.
    Characters:
    - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
    - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
    - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
    - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)

    Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
  • griennegrienne Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    writerdg wrote: »
    Okay. Here's a simple way to hold aggro on a boss. GF initiates the attack by hitting the boss with Lunging Strike. Everyone else start hitting adds. No one touches the boss but the GF. The boss will only aggro the GF as long as he's hammering him with damage and no one else is. A good GF will pull most bosses away from the rest of the party. Some bosses are mostly ranged attacks and won't really follow you, but they'll still aim in your direction, so you can manipulate where their attacks are going.

    Whenever there is a break in the adds, everyone can pile hits on the boss, but as soon as adds pop, everyone leave him alone except the GF and go back to killing adds. GF may lose agrro for a few seconds after a burst of attacks from other party members, but when they stop attacking and GF stays relentlessly on him, the boss will turn all his attention back on the GF.

    Basically, just keep doing this pattern and have a cleric that will help keep the GF alive. If you block, stay out of reds and use Fighter's Recovery, you can keep yourself healed pretty well, but some hits are going to get through sometimes.

    So, to recap, basically, leave the boss alone and let the tank do his job. Especially rogues. Stop trying to be tanks. Rogues hit for more damage, so they pop in and hit the boss and draw aggro, then usually end up leading the boss into the middle of the adds because they can't stand in one place and take hits. Rogues are much more useful for quickly getting rid of all the adds, then they can help finish off the boss quickly once the adds are gone.


    Except a TR does more damage than you and holds aggro even when others are hitting hit. So you can help with adds, you can only tank the boss which isn't needed.....so.....why would someone bring you again?

    That's the crux of the problem really.
  • marzattakzmarzattakz Member Posts: 48
    edited May 2013
    I'd like to throw a bone out to all the GOOD GF's out there. You guys are legend, despite the shortcoming and bugs with your class you persevere and try so very hard. That is the true essence of a tank, someone, who against all the odds, does their utmost best to keep others safe. So here's a shout out to you all, and mad props to MY guardian Cell from Attack Fight Kill, naked lap dances don't pay you back enough.

    With Heartfelt Thanks,
    the Cleric.
  • jayws84jayws84 Member Posts: 42
    edited May 2013
    My main issues as a tank are the tank companions, since I can't even compete with them for aggro, and all the unnecessary CC from other classes. Oh, and of course the occasional dps player who focuses on the boss.
  • sacredchaossacredchaos Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    breagandaerth wrote: »
    Weird because when I read it, I felt he was trying to say everyone but tank clears trash then back on boss. I never read forbidden to hit anywhere in his statement. That is a strategy used in a lot of boss encounters in other mmo games.

    Or.. we could just have a rogue do it.. better?
    GWF lvl 60.
    Completed all content waiting for more.
    And class balances.... trololollol.
  • hadriax1hadriax1 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    ebloodz wrote: »
    Before last night, I used to cringe when a GF joined my team, instead of a rogue, cleric or CW. (GWF are just ambigous, they never die but they dont seem to do much either).

    Usually GF's cant hold aggro at all, and chase after enemies that chase after the wizards and clerics, shouting "adds! adds!"

    Not last night. There was a GF on my team that held perfect aggro throughout the dungeon (Karrundax). It was only once or twice a random mob got in my or the clerics face, and I was free to blast all the adds to pieces.

    So, it is possible to hold aggro as GF, you just aint doing it right.

    your right, they can hold aggro and be a very good member of a team. The problem is : only when there geared in T2 or better , anything less then that and there pretty worthless. >-<
  • etherealjetherealj Member Posts: 1,091 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    There's plenty GFs can do in Karrundax. The keys to agro are being able to avoid most hits through movement and doing what you can to keep the other group members out of aoes. Less healing = less cleric agro. LoS pulls around corners so ranged adds move into your cleave space, AoE taunt then block so things stay agro longer, etc. Though that place does get hilarious when you KV and your group gets you killed through sheer stupidity.

    The only really annoying pulls in that place are the kobolds before second boss. Specifically the wyrmling pull.
    Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
  • sarkeansarkean Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Good CW with GF in group: kindly suck the mobs into a nice bundle while the GF cleaves and taunts them all while keeping them pointed away from the group, allowing dps to AE to their heart's content without suffering so much as a scratch.

    Bad CW with GF in group: explode the mobs to every corner of the park every few seconds, ideally landing your blast right before the GF hits their 13+ sec cd (depending on recovery) ae taunt.

    Tank companions are annoying but I'll usually try to bring my mobs to them. Unfortunately they don't give two hoots about which direction they want their mob pointing. On the other hand, they also do occasionally save the healer by peeling a mob when our taunt is on cd and everything else is just not grabbing it.

    Most of we GFs do actually take pride in preventing our group from getting hit, and we don't get that many tools in this game to succeed. The group themselves can make life soo much easier without slowing down the run.
  • etherealjetherealj Member Posts: 1,091 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I bet bloated GF gearscore is why the perception of their worth is so low. You can get into t2 queues with ~6k GS as a Guardian Fighter. People watch that fail show and start kicking GFs out.
    Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
  • okaminosukeokaminosuke Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 155 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I'll tel you something about GWF's and GF's for that matter:
    I've been doing some pugs in Castle Neverwinter dungeon. Many times seen random teams with double TRs wipe there on mobs. Yesterday was different. My team was 2CW, 1DC, 1 GWF and 1 GF. No Trickser Rogue. And this was the best pug I was ever in! Clearing was incredibly fast and although no one had much experience with this dungeon we made it through 3rd boss with no bigger issues. We made it fast.

    As a CW I can say that having good GWF or GF in team is much better than most people think.
  • etherealjetherealj Member Posts: 1,091 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    okaminosuke wrote: »
    I'll tel you something about GWF's and GF's for that matter:
    I've been doing some pugs in Castle Neverwinter dungeon. Many times seen random teams with double TRs wipe there on mobs. Yesterday was different. My team was 2CW, 1DC, 1 GWF and 1 GF. No Trickser Rogue. And this was the best pug I was ever in! Clearing was incredibly fast and although no one had much experience with this dungeon we made it through 3rd boss with no bigger issues. We made it fast.

    As a CW I can say that having good GWF or GF in team is much better than most people think.

    CN feels like it just requires smart pulling until you hit Dracolich. Class comp for 99% of that place is pretty meaningless.
    Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
  • okaminosukeokaminosuke Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 155 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    etherealj wrote: »
    CN feels like it just requires smart pulling until you hit Dracolich. Class comp for 99% of that place is pretty meaningless.

    Even if you are right the utility these classes bring to the group make them far from "useless class" like many people say. I'd just like to emphasize that.
  • etherealjetherealj Member Posts: 1,091 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    okaminosuke wrote: »
    Even if you are right the utility these classes bring to the group make them far from "useless class" like many people say. I'd just like to emphasize that.

    I did agree with you :D

    Bring whatever you want to CN and have no problems at all before 4th boss :D
    Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
  • torquedsoultorquedsoul Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I'm still not sure why people say the problem is aggro. Maybe I will see when I get to level 60. At this point I cant keep the bosses or mobs off of me.

    The problems creep in with the group mechanic and those that aren't willing to cooperate and allow for a group strategy. I tell them I will hold the boss and they are responsible for adds and it never fails that the some DPS will focus on the boss while the adds eventually pile up and overwhelm me and the cleric. Its difficult to tank a boss with adds on your back.
  • sacredchaossacredchaos Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    torquedsoul wrote: »
    I'm still not sure why people say the problem is aggro. Maybe I will see when I get to level 60. At this point I cant keep the bosses or mobs off of me.

    The problems creep in with the group mechanic and those that aren't willing to cooperate and allow for a group strategy. I tell them I will hold the boss and they are responsible for adds and it never fails that the some DPS will focus on the boss while the adds eventually pile up and overwhelm me and the cleric. Its difficult to tank a boss with adds on your back.

    The smarter thing to do is tank on adds and a dps on boss, why do u feel the need to tank something whos attacks are 95% avoidable?
    GWF lvl 60.
    Completed all content waiting for more.
    And class balances.... trololollol.
  • nukeyoonukeyoo Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    or just bring a 2nd cleric and enjoy the cheese ;)
  • ebloodzebloodz Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    sacredchaos wrote: »
    The smarter thing to do is tank on adds and a dps on boss, why do u feel the need to tank something whos attacks are 95% avoidable?

    Honestly, this.

    The hard part of bosses are the **** adds that usually (in my experience) go first for the cleric and CW. A good GF,
    aggroing the mobs and a good cleric (or two) healing the GF will make any boss doable.

    Actually, with a good GF and two clerics there is absolutely no need for a TR.
    If the adds are handled well any combination of classes can take down any boss, albeit slower than with a full-on single target DPS rogue.
    Really makes me want to try a GF-Cleric-Cleric-CW-CW party. Should be a walk in the park.
  • teemoorteemoor Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 82
    edited May 2013
    Let me ask this question:
    Does anyone have a problem with bosses? I mean what boss gives you trouble and needs to be tanked by a GF if there were no adds? I can't remember even one. And bosses hit like a wet noodle anyway (except big red circles), so a rogue can solo tank any boss in the game if you keep adds off him. He will also kill the boss solo just buy dodging/astral seal/pots (no adds).

    So what's the point of tanking a boss? And noone can tank adds without CC. Noone. You'll get swarmed.
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