What you posted was an ad hominem. Your argument is that the other poster's claims are invalid because you have personally ruled that he was spamming. His true actions are irrelevant to the discussion, as is your (or anyone's) definition of spam. What matters is what is possible and easy due to this system.
A group of 20 players could mute anyone who speaks in zone chat for 24 hours without repercussions. Does anyone refute this?
Keep in mind that the servers are international. Does anyone deny that players could exist who reports any non-English chat regardless of its context?
Suppose there is a player who enjoys helping others and answering questions. This player attempts to answer any questions asked by new players. Answering in zone chat rather than via whisper will allow other players who may have the same question to see the answer. Is it possible that at least 20 player could simply get tired of seeing his name and report him for spamming?
Are these examples of a system "working as intended," or are they flaws? Cryptic has stated that the system is working as intended and will not be changed. I want to hear from the rest of you, especially those of you who support the system. If you support the system in spite of its flaws, so be it. Simply say so. But I'd like to hear an explanation (other than "cause the devs said so") as to how these examples are not signs of a flawed system.
Even though I'd like to give everyone more credit, I want to avoid further ad hominems by pointing out that I do not use zone chat at all, so this actually doesn't affect me in any direct way.
it's not an ad hominem. for the 20 years i've been playing mud's and mmorpg's anyone sending the same sell message over a zone wide or game wide chat has been considered a spammer by the very generation of online gamers i'm a part of.
if you don't like it, move on. do you know how much item spam there is in star trek online when you dock into earth spacedock? very, very little. because the community made a trade channel, and they use it. you should consider the same.
make a special neverwinter trade chat. advertise it on these forums. get people to join it and spam yer <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in there.
the system will not be changed. it's like this in three of their games now. the game is private domain - you have no constitutional rights here either. in addition spam can be so bad that when you hit right click and report spam there can be upwards of an 80% chance you just reported the wrong name.
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tredoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's people like you two that cause the real issues. I post once and get chat banned from EVERYTHING for 24 hours. You are missing the point. Ban me from zone, fine. But from everything else? That's a joke.
2 days ago I was chat banned for "LF1M CN," not even spamming it. What should I use when I need to find people? What do you suggest zone chat be used for? Roleplaying? Get off your high horse and look at the real issue.
I do think that under the 'O' key, for social, there is a lfg option there.
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asashiroMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
in addition spam can be so bad that when you hit right click and report spam there can be upwards of an 80% chance you just reported the wrong name.
You would think that right there would be reason enough to not put this automated system in the hands of the players.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited May 2013
You want to stop this? Have a dev come out and explain the exact intended use of 'report spam', announce it via an in-game popup, (with a warning that misuse of the feature is against the rules), and have someone start doling out warnings, temp bans, then permanent bans, to those who misused the system.
As I keep saying - any behavior which is not punished is in fact encouraged, so by allowing people to use 'report spam' for a purpose other than what it's intended for, without repercussion, is like saying "go ahead and silence anyone you don't like".
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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shroommageMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
it's not an ad hominem. for the 20 years i've been playing mud's and mmorpg's anyone sending the same sell message over a zone wide or game wide chat has been considered a spammer by the very generation of online gamers i'm a part of.
if you don't like it, move on. do you know how much item spam there is in star trek online when you dock into earth spacedock? very, very little. because the community made a trade channel, and they use it. you should consider the same.
make a special neverwinter trade chat. advertise it on these forums. get people to join it and spam yer <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in there.
the system will not be changed. it's like this in three of their games now. the game is private domain - you have no constitutional rights here either. in addition spam can be so bad that when you hit right click and report spam there can be upwards of an 80% chance you just reported the wrong name.
If you're not going to read and respond to the content of my post then please refrain from quoting or addressing me.
It was ad hominem. You discussed the person rather than his argument. It was even bordering on name-calling. Do I need to post the image again? What you did this time was "contradiction," wherein you simply state the opposing case with little or no supporting evidence. Everything you said right here has been stated and refuted many times in this thread, and as you just demonstrated, even when someone creates a new argument, you ignore it and repost the same thing, so I'm not going to waste my time until you actually respond to the content of my post.
I remember on CO a player said on Zone chat, "Wolverine sucks!" No spamming it, it was just once. Bam! He got chat-banned.
A more recent CO discussion: http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=214911
Long story short, one group sees a player who happens to have initials in her @handle that suggested she might belong to another group they don't get along with, so they chat-banned her as a revenge attack against a person they thought belonged to a group that had chat-banned one of their own friends (which was done as a revenge for PvP antics).
Stop and process that in reverse order to get the sequence right.
1) A PvP player pissed off her opponents so they chat-banned her. (Is chat-banning meant for that? NO).
2) The PvPer's fellow supergroup members saw somebody they thought belonged to the opponents and so chat-banned the kid as revenge for item 1. (Is chat-banning meant for that? NO).
3) Said victim in item 2 was not even related to the opponents in item 1. So now we have an innocent bystander getting chat-ban griefed. (Icing on the cake? The kid was related to the PvPer.)
And yet, PWE says this is all working as intended...
I remember on CO a player said on Zone chat, "Wolverine sucks!" No spamming it, it was just once. Bam! He got chat-banned.
A more recent CO discussion: http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=214911
Long story short, one group sees a player who happens to have initials in her @handle that suggested she might belong to another group they don't get along with, so they chat-banned her as a revenge attack against a person they thought belonged to a group that had chat-banned one of their own friends (which was done as a revenge for PvP antics).
Stop and process that in reverse order to get the sequence right.
1) A PvP player pissed off her opponents so they chat-banned her. (Is chat-banning meant for that? NO).
2) The PvPer's fellow supergroup members saw somebody they thought belonged to the opponents and so chat-banned the kid as revenge for item 1. (Is chat-banning meant for that? NO).
3) Said victim in item 2 was not even related to the opponents in item 1. So now we have an innocent bystander getting chat-ban griefed. (Icing on the cake? The kid was related to the PvPer.)
And yet, PWE says this is all working as intended...
I'd forgotten about PvP. It's extremely easy for groups of players to completely mute their opposition. Those with Vent/TS won't care too much, although their "Call for Help" messages will be suppressed. I can easily see this being used by premades and their guilds to shut down pugs, which I expect it already is in CO.
I'm consistently baffled by Cryptic's incredible lack of foresight. After AD exploits, AFK PvPing, and random groups having party leaders with the ability to claim all loot for themselves and kick whomever they please, you'd think I'd be used to it by now. It's not just lazy. It's beyond amateur. I understand they make a profit regardless, but avoiding fiascoes like these would help to, you know, make more. I can only suppose whoever is in charge of these decisions isn't seeing any of the money anyway and isn't payed enough to care.
EDIT: The thing that gets me isn't just the innocent bystander. It's the casual way muting is accepted.
Wasn't to bothered as someone who PvP's now and then I expect to be muted now and then and besides I talk to the peeps I run mmo's with via XFIRE so no real hardship for me.
I cannot fathom how this is deemed acceptable on any level.
Suppose there is a player who enjoys helping others and answering questions. This player attempts to answer any questions asked by new players. Answering in zone chat rather than via whisper will allow other players who may have the same question to see the answer. Is it possible that at least 20 player could simply get tired of seeing his name and report him for spamming?
Quite possible. I'd give it...a 95% chance of happening within the week of this posting.
Are these examples of a system "working as intended," or are they flaws? Cryptic has stated that the system is working as intended and will not be changed. I want to hear from the rest of you, especially those of you who support the system. If you support the system in spite of its flaws, so be it. Simply say so. But I'd like to hear an explanation (other than "cause the devs said so") as to how these examples are not signs of a flawed system.
They are indeed, signs of an inherently flawed system. Simply because the developers refuse to acknowledge the problem, does not mean it is not a problem.
Even though I'd like to give everyone more credit, I want to avoid further ad hominems by pointing out that I do not use zone chat at all, so this actually doesn't affect me in any direct way.
Right there with you. Zone chat in every game I play gets turned off within thirty seconds of my logging in, and never turned back on for the duration of my play time in the aforementioned game.
I've suggested it time and again....strip out the chat ban part of both ignore and report spam. Such a thing should never have been given to the general populace, and if Cryptic cannot be bothered to moderate ingame conversations then...do not leave it up to us. Because even the nobelist of intentions can go wrong. Especially online. But, because it -IS- the internet, some jackwad has something irritating to say back, or completely misconstrues what point is trying to be made...and we're back to square one.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
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gyurdiousMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If you're not going to read and respond to the content of my post then please refrain from quoting or addressing me.
It was ad hominem. You discussed the person rather than his argument. It was even bordering on name-calling. Do I need to post the image again? What you did this time was "contradiction," wherein you simply state the opposing case with little or no supporting evidence. Everything you said right here has been stated and refuted many times in this thread, and as you just demonstrated, even when someone creates a new argument, you ignore it and repost the same thing, so I'm not going to waste my time until you actually respond to the content of my post.
This. Specifically the last bit, "...you ignore it and repost the same thing, ..."
It's beyond amateur. I understand they make a profit regardless, but avoiding fiascoes like these would help to, you know, make more. I can only suppose whoever is in charge of these decisions isn't seeing any of the money anyway and isn't payed enough to care.
How many new employees do you think it would take to provide 24/7 365 chat multi-lingual monitoring and response across all their games? Upwards of 12. You think PWE haven't done the math and figure they'd like to keep that million plus bucks themselves?
They are not idiots, they have a chat system that costs them no more than a few butt-hurt FTP customers. I would guess very few leave because of the system in place. either way you can be sure they've done the sums and picked the most cost-effective system for them.
A single guild could easily hold the entire game hostage with this mechanic, forcing the devs to bring down the servers and issue more bans and rollbacks resulting in time-lost for the players, faith lost in the devs and resulting, ultimately, in lost revenue.
If they're not going to fix the system for the right reasons, they could at least fix it for the selfish ones.
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cr0pMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
How many new employees do you think it would take to provide 24/7 365 chat multi-lingual monitoring and response across all their games? Upwards of 12. You think PWE haven't done the math and figure they'd like to keep that million plus bucks themselves?
They are not idiots, they have a chat system that costs them no more than a few butt-hurt FTP customers. I would guess very few leave because of the system in place. either way you can be sure they've done the sums and picked the most cost-effective system for them.
Many alternatives to the current implementation have been suggested, and I've seen not a single one that has involved 24/7 chat-monitoring. Also, customers who haven't payed should always be viewed by the company as customers who haven't payed yet. Every time a player is frustrated by anything in the game, in or out of Cryptic's control, they become less likely to spend money. Happy players spend. Unhappy players don't.
I can make two guesses as to why they have such a horrible system. 1) Whoever decided upon it isn't seeing any of the money that would be saved by creating a better one and therefore doesn't care, or 2) they have only looked at cost-efficiency for the short term.
I'm leaning toward the second one based on Cryptic's track record of cutting corners, putting out unfinished products, and charging huge amounts of money before the game is even playable.
The arrogance and complete lack of empathy of their devs and mods is staggering. For example, a community moderator appointed by Cryptic/PWE had this to say on the STO forums in response to automatic account bans given to players for merely saying the name of a goldseller in any channel, regardless of context:
I get it sucks being banned by an auto system however in my personal opinion that is the best option. It'll get the majority of spammers (and no just doing spaces or _ or / in between words most likely won't help since they've probably used a regex) and yes sadly there will be some people hit on accident. But unbanning those accidentally hit is faster than having to deal with the spammers.
Emphasis mine. "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs." But if the omelet was for your customers, and the customers are the eggs, doesn't this defeat the entire purpose of the omelet?
PWE don't give a flying frack about customers. They demonstrate this over and over again. That's why they have this system. STO has had it for years and STO appears to be a big success. They don't care if players threaten to leave. There's always a steady stream of new customers. Who wants a bunch of old players hanging around cluttering up the server, not buying Zen because they make all the AD or dilithium they need? The only customer they value is the ones spending money. People can whine and moan all they like about whether or not the current system is 'unfair'. They don't care. Honestly, they just don't. Nothing that is said here, nothing that goes on here hasn't been happening for years in their other games.
Besides, if you want to play in the Forgotten Realms or the Star Trek Universe then their's is the only game in town which is why they have boughtup popular franchises. It's why I still play LOTRO despite all the Turbine/Warner greeding (but as i'm now finding they are rank amateurs when it comes to exploiting their customers). PWE have teams of accountants and MBA's figuring this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out. They know what they are doing.
The only time you'll get a change is when they think the bottom line is under threat. I don't think this game is anywhere near this point. I don't care much about the chat system, it's practically a single player game anyway and I would not even notice if I was muted. What I do care about is having any useful information, recruitment messages or interesting questions whisked off the screen quicker than I can read it by endless trade spam.
If the only options are the current system, with its exploitable flaws or none then I'm happy with things as they are now. Even if they did institute a trade channel (and i wish they would) the trade spammers wouldn't stick to it anyway. As for the all channel muting not being 'fair'. Yes it is. It's the known punishment. You don't like it, go. If you think you've been unfairly treated, take it up with PWE for all the good it'll do.
I'm frankly appalled at the seething pool of scum the NW gaming community is. The naked exploiting and cheating, the self-entitled hogging of chat by traders, the racism, sexism and general stupidity and if what half here is said is true - the petty pointless vendetta's. There are people in this thread threatening to go out and spam ban people for no reason, people I hope PWE are taking note of and action against but I doubt it. WTF is wrong with some people? Why can't people just get on with playing the game and behave like polite civilised human beings.
Emphasis mine. "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs." But if the omelet was for your customers, and the customers are the eggs, doesn't this defeat the entire purpose of the omelet?
Not if the cost of preventing broken eggs is more expensive than getting new ones. PWE thinks this is the case and the success of STO has done nothing to dissuade them of this notion. If half the people who threaten to leave or half their friends allegedly hit by unfair bans just closed their PWE accounts and left then maybe something would happen. But they did not in STO and they probably are not here either. Until that time PWE need do nothing but mouth the same 'yeah, we're looking into it. Really we are' platitudes they do in STO.
Not if the cost of preventing broken eggs is more expensive than getting new ones. PWE thinks this is the case and the success of STO has done nothing to dissuade them of this notion. If half the people who threaten to leave or half their friends allegedly hit by unfair bans just closed their PWE accounts and left then maybe something would happen. But they did not in STO and they probably are not here either. Until that time PWE need do nothing but mouth the same 'yeah, we're looking into it. Really we are' platitudes they do in STO.
But its not PWE's doing per say so why close your PWE account because of something Cryptic put into their chat server BEFORE PWE bought them over.
Because this is how Chat works in all PWE games. Cryptic didn't 'put it there'. They implemented the PWE system. If you don't like it here you won't like it in STO. Besides, you can't affect their bottom line by switching your expenditure to another of their products.
Take your gaming budget to another company or just accept this is how things are in PWE-Land. I find it both a little sad and a little amusing to think that PWE cares one little bit what our opinions are. They have a flunky to occasionally come on and do a little PR hand-waving and that's about it.
i'd love them to create new channels and permanently ban anyone who posted outside of them. I'd love them to perma-ban anyone who spouts racist and sexist ****, I'd like them to perma-ban people who think Zone Chat is their personal ego-tripping performing stage. Hell, i'd perma-ban anyone who won't write in full sentences and without abbreviations.
I just don't think they will and if they did the same self-entitled people would still spam Zone Chat anyway on the same old excuse of 'biggest market'.
And then they have to leave in place a community punishment or provide expensive round the clock moderators.
And that brings us full circle to 'it's not fair, I broke the rules and am being punished for it in the way it's stated I would be'.
You must be delusional, you are MISSING THE ISSUE. People can ban people from ALL CHAT, NOT JUST ZONE, for 24 hours. I was banned 2 days ago from ALL CHAT for LFM. Not using it for trade spam.
Banning someone from whispers, party chat, guild chat, and zone chat essentially makes the game unplayable for 24 hours. Good grief.
To the above <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>,you cant sell items in AH for gold unless i'm missing something.So saying once "wts item" in zone chat is not considered spam,if you dont know what spam is google it.and if you dont like seeing wts messages in zone chat blame the game for not having a trade chat.
You are literally <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Instead of facing the issue, you just want everyone to stay out of zone chat? I have a solution for you, turn your zone chat off.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you speak to people like that in general. Not in real life of course. I doubt you are that foolish and brave, but you type these type of responses in the zone while you are lf1m.
I also imagine there are people that do not like being insulted, like you do not like being insulted by me.
Let's use this as a learning lesson. Perhaps we can mellow out a bit, and be more civil. I believe if you can accomplish this your chances of being banned may drop.
Because this is how Chat works in all PWE games. Cryptic didn't 'put it there'. They implemented the PWE system. If you don't like it here you won't like it in STO. Besides, you can't affect their bottom line by switching your expenditure to another of their products.
Take your gaming budget to another company or just accept this is how things are in PWE-Land. I find it both a little sad and a little amusing to think that PWE cares one little bit what our opinions are. They have a flunky to occasionally come on and do a little PR hand-waving and that's about it.
i'd love them to create new channels and permanently ban anyone who posted outside of them. I'd love them to perma-ban anyone who spouts racist and sexist ****, I'd like them to perma-ban people who think Zone Chat is their personal ego-tripping performing stage. Hell, i'd perma-ban anyone who won't write in full sentences and without abbreviations.
I just don't think they will and if they did the same self-entitled people would still spam Zone Chat anyway on the same old excuse of 'biggest market'.
And then they have to leave in place a community punishment or provide expensive round the clock moderators.
And that brings us full circle to 'it's not fair, I broke the rules and am being punished for it in the way it's stated I would be'.
Your almost all wrong PWE didnt implement it like I said only the Cryptic games have it. The PWE ones dont have it. The chat ban was in CO and STO ( I'm a long time player of both those games) when it was under Atari's rule. Ive played most of PWE's games ( check my core connect for proof :P ) its nothing to do with "PWE Land".
Again PWE had nothing to do with the chat ban thingy was most likely a another "great" idea from Atari that just happened to hang about after they left.
PWE don't give a flying frack about customers. They demonstrate this over and over again. That's why they have this system. STO has had it for years and STO appears to be a big success. They don't care if players threaten to leave. There's always a steady stream of new customers. Who wants a bunch of old players hanging around cluttering up the server, not buying Zen because they make all the AD or dilithium they need? The only customer they value is the ones spending money. People can whine and moan all they like about whether or not the current system is 'unfair'. They don't care. Honestly, they just don't. Nothing that is said here, nothing that goes on here hasn't been happening for years in their other games.
Besides, if you want to play in the Forgotten Realms or the Star Trek Universe then their's is the only game in town which is why they have boughtup popular franchises. It's why I still play LOTRO despite all the Turbine/Warner greeding (but as i'm now finding they are rank amateurs when it comes to exploiting their customers). PWE have teams of accountants and MBA's figuring this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out. They know what they are doing.
The only time you'll get a change is when they think the bottom line is under threat. I don't think this game is anywhere near this point. I don't care much about the chat system, it's practically a single player game anyway and I would not even notice if I was muted. What I do care about is having any useful information, recruitment messages or interesting questions whisked off the screen quicker than I can read it by endless trade spam.
If the only options are the current system, with its exploitable flaws or none then I'm happy with things as they are now. Even if they did institute a trade channel (and i wish they would) the trade spammers wouldn't stick to it anyway. As for the all channel muting not being 'fair'. Yes it is. It's the known punishment. You don't like it, go. If you think you've been unfairly treated, take it up with PWE for all the good it'll do.
I'm frankly appalled at the seething pool of scum the NW gaming community is. The naked exploiting and cheating, the self-entitled hogging of chat by traders, the racism, sexism and general stupidity and if what half here is said is true - the petty pointless vendetta's. There are people in this thread threatening to go out and spam ban people for no reason, people I hope PWE are taking note of and action against but I doubt it. WTF is wrong with some people? Why can't people just get on with playing the game and behave like polite civilised human beings.
Could I sum up your argument as "I don't care and neither should you"? That's what I'm getting out of it. You may have become complacent in what you seem to acknowledge is horrible negligence by Cryptic/PWE, but many of us have not. Don't you dare tell me what to care about.
And need I remind you that the "naked exploiting and cheating" is the only thing that Cryptic/PWE actually responds to? I don't partake in such things, but I'm reaching a point where I would delight in seeing others do so. The abusers get banned, and Cryptic actually fixes their problems. Sounds like everyone wins when the abuse is widespread enough.
You can misrepresent and misunderstand my post as much as you like. The only people who count are PWE and they have a long established track record of not caring. You can either accept that's how it is or continue railing against the wind and the tides. As you so masterfully observe, all they care about is the exploits that fill the gold-seller coffers with AD that undercut their sale of Zen to those wanting more AD.
I expect nothing more from PWE, this is how they work. That's why I don't expect to be able to repeat post trades in Zone Chat without running the risk of unjust consquences. That's why I don't do it. Reward not worth the risk. Each time you post anything in chat you have to make that judgement and live with the consequences rather than come on the forum for another bout of fruitless raging.
You can misrepresent and misunderstand my post as much as you like. The only people who count are PWE and they have a long established track record of not caring. You can either accept that's how it is or continue railing against the wind and the tides. As you so masterfully observe, all they care about is the exploits that fill the gold-seller coffers with AD that undercut their sale of Zen to those wanting more AD.
I expect nothing more from PWE, this is how they work. That's why I don't expect to be able to repeat post trades in Zone Chat without running the risk of unjust consquences. That's why I don't do it. Reward not worth the risk. Each time you post anything in chat you have to make that judgement and live with the consequences rather than come on the forum for another bout of fruitless raging.
Actually PWE do care I found myself chat muted in STO/CO after being offline for a month due to crashing my car ( not online so not able to spam chat obviously :P ) had 21 hours to go on this mystery chat ban. I put in a simple to ticket to PWE themselves 12 hours later the chat ban was reversed . Ok so I was still chat muted for just over half the ban period BUT it did show PWE does care when innocent players get hit by this.
Actually PWE do care I found myself chat muted in STO/CO after being offline for a month due to crashing my car ( not online so not able to spam chat obviously :P ) had 21 hours to go on this mystery chat ban. I put in a simple to ticket to PWE themselves 12 hours later the chat ban was reversed . Ok so I was still chat muted for just over half the ban period BUT it did show PWE does care when innocent players get hit by this.
Good, then we can dismiss the whole problem of 'unfair' muting then. The system works and needs no changing. If you have a problem PWE will sort it for you. Did we really need 60 pages to come to this realisation?
Good, then we can dismiss the whole problem of 'unfair' muting then. The system works and needs no changing. If you have a problem PWE will sort it for you. Did we really need 60 pages to come to this realisation?
If you actually read through this thread probably you will see most people want a working chat ban system. This one is busted due to the fact that according to the chat server IGNORE and REPORT SPAM are the same thing. PWE cant go through every ticket within 24 hours I was just lucky. By separating IGNORE and REPORT SPAM you will cut down on the number of players unfairly muted.
Players shouldnt be chat banned for being ignored because someone doesnt like your face but they should be chat banned for spamming . There is a big difference.
Also In CO PVPrs use it to mute people who beat them. Its got out of control over there :<
Also In CO PVPrs use it to mute people who beat them. Its got out of control over there :<
People are scum and pvp seems to bring out the worst in people. Hell, I've been put off even grouping in this game by the naked greed, selfishness and tantrums. I've been playing LOTRO for many years and was looking for something new. I had high hopes of NW but compared to the server I play on in LOTRO the NW 'community' is little more than a pack of feral dogs.
When I pug in LOTRO a group will talk first and find out if everyone knows what they need to know. It will stop and take pause. In a NW pug there will be no discussion at all, people will be left to do what they think best even if new to the instance and at some point, as sure as God made little green apples, someone will rage-quit because other people are not as super-awesome as they think themselves are.
I broke my own rule and signed up to pug an in-storyline quest yesterday. We got to the final boss and of course as half of us had never been here before there were wipes. Then the 'leader' quit because we weren't doing as much dps as he thought we should (when I checked the combat logs his rogue was doing joke levels of dps).
In the end there was two of us left and we got the final boss down to 50%. If even a couple of others had stayed to keep the spawning adds off my back we'd have done it but no - 'things got hard so we quit'.
Pathetic.
I think PWE just accept that its customer base comprises way too many 'bad' elements and their chat system is just the manifestation of 'Let the scum fight it out among themselves. Who cares what they do to each other so long as they give us their money.'
It's like a South American jail. Let the prisoners run it, we don't give a **** what they do to each other so long as they don't escape'.
The current system makes literally no sense, and anyone who voted for it must be absolutely incapable of rational thought.
Let's make a guild called "Chat Banners" and report literally every person who talks in game, so they all get banned.
In Champions online, a guild was formed to protest about this system by randomly banning people.
What needs to be changed is, as Nepht said, seperating Ignore from report spam. Ignore should just do that. Stop you from seeing a person's messages. NOT add to their chat ban colection points.
Their abuse is too specific and controlled. If they instead dedicated themselves to report spamming everyone from zone chat, a lot more people would care.
There are other examples like Nepht's PvP one, but there are entire groups dedicated to abusing this feature for kicks and giggles.
Comments
it's not an ad hominem. for the 20 years i've been playing mud's and mmorpg's anyone sending the same sell message over a zone wide or game wide chat has been considered a spammer by the very generation of online gamers i'm a part of.
if you don't like it, move on. do you know how much item spam there is in star trek online when you dock into earth spacedock? very, very little. because the community made a trade channel, and they use it. you should consider the same.
make a special neverwinter trade chat. advertise it on these forums. get people to join it and spam yer <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in there.
the system will not be changed. it's like this in three of their games now. the game is private domain - you have no constitutional rights here either. in addition spam can be so bad that when you hit right click and report spam there can be upwards of an 80% chance you just reported the wrong name.
I do think that under the 'O' key, for social, there is a lfg option there.
You would think that right there would be reason enough to not put this automated system in the hands of the players.
As I keep saying - any behavior which is not punished is in fact encouraged, so by allowing people to use 'report spam' for a purpose other than what it's intended for, without repercussion, is like saying "go ahead and silence anyone you don't like".
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
If you're not going to read and respond to the content of my post then please refrain from quoting or addressing me.
It was ad hominem. You discussed the person rather than his argument. It was even bordering on name-calling. Do I need to post the image again? What you did this time was "contradiction," wherein you simply state the opposing case with little or no supporting evidence. Everything you said right here has been stated and refuted many times in this thread, and as you just demonstrated, even when someone creates a new argument, you ignore it and repost the same thing, so I'm not going to waste my time until you actually respond to the content of my post.
A more recent CO discussion: http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=214911
Long story short, one group sees a player who happens to have initials in her @handle that suggested she might belong to another group they don't get along with, so they chat-banned her as a revenge attack against a person they thought belonged to a group that had chat-banned one of their own friends (which was done as a revenge for PvP antics).
Stop and process that in reverse order to get the sequence right.
1) A PvP player pissed off her opponents so they chat-banned her. (Is chat-banning meant for that? NO).
2) The PvPer's fellow supergroup members saw somebody they thought belonged to the opponents and so chat-banned the kid as revenge for item 1. (Is chat-banning meant for that? NO).
3) Said victim in item 2 was not even related to the opponents in item 1. So now we have an innocent bystander getting chat-ban griefed. (Icing on the cake? The kid was related to the PvPer.)
And yet, PWE says this is all working as intended...
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I'd forgotten about PvP. It's extremely easy for groups of players to completely mute their opposition. Those with Vent/TS won't care too much, although their "Call for Help" messages will be suppressed. I can easily see this being used by premades and their guilds to shut down pugs, which I expect it already is in CO.
I'm consistently baffled by Cryptic's incredible lack of foresight. After AD exploits, AFK PvPing, and random groups having party leaders with the ability to claim all loot for themselves and kick whomever they please, you'd think I'd be used to it by now. It's not just lazy. It's beyond amateur. I understand they make a profit regardless, but avoiding fiascoes like these would help to, you know, make more. I can only suppose whoever is in charge of these decisions isn't seeing any of the money anyway and isn't payed enough to care.
EDIT: The thing that gets me isn't just the innocent bystander. It's the casual way muting is accepted.
I cannot fathom how this is deemed acceptable on any level.
Not in the least. Matter of fact, I support this idea, as I've seen it happen.
Again, not in the least. I fully support this idea, as I've seen it happen.
Quite possible. I'd give it...a 95% chance of happening within the week of this posting.
They are indeed, signs of an inherently flawed system. Simply because the developers refuse to acknowledge the problem, does not mean it is not a problem.
Right there with you. Zone chat in every game I play gets turned off within thirty seconds of my logging in, and never turned back on for the duration of my play time in the aforementioned game.
I've suggested it time and again....strip out the chat ban part of both ignore and report spam. Such a thing should never have been given to the general populace, and if Cryptic cannot be bothered to moderate ingame conversations then...do not leave it up to us. Because even the nobelist of intentions can go wrong. Especially online. But, because it -IS- the internet, some jackwad has something irritating to say back, or completely misconstrues what point is trying to be made...and we're back to square one.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
This. Specifically the last bit, "...you ignore it and repost the same thing, ..."
How many new employees do you think it would take to provide 24/7 365 chat multi-lingual monitoring and response across all their games? Upwards of 12. You think PWE haven't done the math and figure they'd like to keep that million plus bucks themselves?
They are not idiots, they have a chat system that costs them no more than a few butt-hurt FTP customers. I would guess very few leave because of the system in place. either way you can be sure they've done the sums and picked the most cost-effective system for them.
If they're not going to fix the system for the right reasons, they could at least fix it for the selfish ones.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?302242-Poll-Does-the-quot-Report-Spam-quot-feature-need-a-tweak
Many alternatives to the current implementation have been suggested, and I've seen not a single one that has involved 24/7 chat-monitoring. Also, customers who haven't payed should always be viewed by the company as customers who haven't payed yet. Every time a player is frustrated by anything in the game, in or out of Cryptic's control, they become less likely to spend money. Happy players spend. Unhappy players don't.
I can make two guesses as to why they have such a horrible system. 1) Whoever decided upon it isn't seeing any of the money that would be saved by creating a better one and therefore doesn't care, or 2) they have only looked at cost-efficiency for the short term.
I'm leaning toward the second one based on Cryptic's track record of cutting corners, putting out unfinished products, and charging huge amounts of money before the game is even playable.
The arrogance and complete lack of empathy of their devs and mods is staggering. For example, a community moderator appointed by Cryptic/PWE had this to say on the STO forums in response to automatic account bans given to players for merely saying the name of a goldseller in any channel, regardless of context: Emphasis mine. "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs." But if the omelet was for your customers, and the customers are the eggs, doesn't this defeat the entire purpose of the omelet?
Besides, if you want to play in the Forgotten Realms or the Star Trek Universe then their's is the only game in town which is why they have boughtup popular franchises. It's why I still play LOTRO despite all the Turbine/Warner greeding (but as i'm now finding they are rank amateurs when it comes to exploiting their customers). PWE have teams of accountants and MBA's figuring this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out. They know what they are doing.
The only time you'll get a change is when they think the bottom line is under threat. I don't think this game is anywhere near this point. I don't care much about the chat system, it's practically a single player game anyway and I would not even notice if I was muted. What I do care about is having any useful information, recruitment messages or interesting questions whisked off the screen quicker than I can read it by endless trade spam.
If the only options are the current system, with its exploitable flaws or none then I'm happy with things as they are now. Even if they did institute a trade channel (and i wish they would) the trade spammers wouldn't stick to it anyway. As for the all channel muting not being 'fair'. Yes it is. It's the known punishment. You don't like it, go. If you think you've been unfairly treated, take it up with PWE for all the good it'll do.
I'm frankly appalled at the seething pool of scum the NW gaming community is. The naked exploiting and cheating, the self-entitled hogging of chat by traders, the racism, sexism and general stupidity and if what half here is said is true - the petty pointless vendetta's. There are people in this thread threatening to go out and spam ban people for no reason, people I hope PWE are taking note of and action against but I doubt it. WTF is wrong with some people? Why can't people just get on with playing the game and behave like polite civilised human beings.
Not if the cost of preventing broken eggs is more expensive than getting new ones. PWE thinks this is the case and the success of STO has done nothing to dissuade them of this notion. If half the people who threaten to leave or half their friends allegedly hit by unfair bans just closed their PWE accounts and left then maybe something would happen. But they did not in STO and they probably are not here either. Until that time PWE need do nothing but mouth the same 'yeah, we're looking into it. Really we are' platitudes they do in STO.
But its not PWE's doing per say so why close your PWE account because of something Cryptic put into their chat server BEFORE PWE bought them over.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
Take your gaming budget to another company or just accept this is how things are in PWE-Land. I find it both a little sad and a little amusing to think that PWE cares one little bit what our opinions are. They have a flunky to occasionally come on and do a little PR hand-waving and that's about it.
i'd love them to create new channels and permanently ban anyone who posted outside of them. I'd love them to perma-ban anyone who spouts racist and sexist ****, I'd like them to perma-ban people who think Zone Chat is their personal ego-tripping performing stage. Hell, i'd perma-ban anyone who won't write in full sentences and without abbreviations.
I just don't think they will and if they did the same self-entitled people would still spam Zone Chat anyway on the same old excuse of 'biggest market'.
And then they have to leave in place a community punishment or provide expensive round the clock moderators.
And that brings us full circle to 'it's not fair, I broke the rules and am being punished for it in the way it's stated I would be'.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you speak to people like that in general. Not in real life of course. I doubt you are that foolish and brave, but you type these type of responses in the zone while you are lf1m.
I also imagine there are people that do not like being insulted, like you do not like being insulted by me.
Let's use this as a learning lesson. Perhaps we can mellow out a bit, and be more civil. I believe if you can accomplish this your chances of being banned may drop.
So stop being and being one of the numerous on your shard and all your problems should go away if you're not
Let's make a guild called "Chat Banners" and report literally every person who talks in game, so they all get banned.
Your almost all wrong PWE didnt implement it like I said only the Cryptic games have it. The PWE ones dont have it. The chat ban was in CO and STO ( I'm a long time player of both those games) when it was under Atari's rule. Ive played most of PWE's games ( check my core connect for proof :P ) its nothing to do with "PWE Land".
Again PWE had nothing to do with the chat ban thingy was most likely a another "great" idea from Atari that just happened to hang about after they left.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
Could I sum up your argument as "I don't care and neither should you"? That's what I'm getting out of it. You may have become complacent in what you seem to acknowledge is horrible negligence by Cryptic/PWE, but many of us have not. Don't you dare tell me what to care about.
And need I remind you that the "naked exploiting and cheating" is the only thing that Cryptic/PWE actually responds to? I don't partake in such things, but I'm reaching a point where I would delight in seeing others do so. The abusers get banned, and Cryptic actually fixes their problems. Sounds like everyone wins when the abuse is widespread enough.
I expect nothing more from PWE, this is how they work. That's why I don't expect to be able to repeat post trades in Zone Chat without running the risk of unjust consquences. That's why I don't do it. Reward not worth the risk. Each time you post anything in chat you have to make that judgement and live with the consequences rather than come on the forum for another bout of fruitless raging.
Actually PWE do care I found myself chat muted in STO/CO after being offline for a month due to crashing my car ( not online so not able to spam chat obviously :P ) had 21 hours to go on this mystery chat ban. I put in a simple to ticket to PWE themselves 12 hours later the chat ban was reversed . Ok so I was still chat muted for just over half the ban period BUT it did show PWE does care when innocent players get hit by this.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
Good, then we can dismiss the whole problem of 'unfair' muting then. The system works and needs no changing. If you have a problem PWE will sort it for you. Did we really need 60 pages to come to this realisation?
If you actually read through this thread probably you will see most people want a working chat ban system. This one is busted due to the fact that according to the chat server IGNORE and REPORT SPAM are the same thing. PWE cant go through every ticket within 24 hours I was just lucky. By separating IGNORE and REPORT SPAM you will cut down on the number of players unfairly muted.
Players shouldnt be chat banned for being ignored because someone doesnt like your face but they should be chat banned for spamming . There is a big difference.
Also In CO PVPrs use it to mute people who beat them. Its got out of control over there :<
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
People are scum and pvp seems to bring out the worst in people. Hell, I've been put off even grouping in this game by the naked greed, selfishness and tantrums. I've been playing LOTRO for many years and was looking for something new. I had high hopes of NW but compared to the server I play on in LOTRO the NW 'community' is little more than a pack of feral dogs.
When I pug in LOTRO a group will talk first and find out if everyone knows what they need to know. It will stop and take pause. In a NW pug there will be no discussion at all, people will be left to do what they think best even if new to the instance and at some point, as sure as God made little green apples, someone will rage-quit because other people are not as super-awesome as they think themselves are.
I broke my own rule and signed up to pug an in-storyline quest yesterday. We got to the final boss and of course as half of us had never been here before there were wipes. Then the 'leader' quit because we weren't doing as much dps as he thought we should (when I checked the combat logs his rogue was doing joke levels of dps).
In the end there was two of us left and we got the final boss down to 50%. If even a couple of others had stayed to keep the spawning adds off my back we'd have done it but no - 'things got hard so we quit'.
Pathetic.
I think PWE just accept that its customer base comprises way too many 'bad' elements and their chat system is just the manifestation of 'Let the scum fight it out among themselves. Who cares what they do to each other so long as they give us their money.'
It's like a South American jail. Let the prisoners run it, we don't give a **** what they do to each other so long as they don't escape'.
What needs to be changed is, as Nepht said, seperating Ignore from report spam. Ignore should just do that. Stop you from seeing a person's messages. NOT add to their chat ban colection points.
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Yay! Lets try it.
There are other examples like Nepht's PvP one, but there are entire groups dedicated to abusing this feature for kicks and giggles.