Well if you guys really feel as though there is something beyond what I posted then we can look into it some. However I made the statement without researching further since there has not been any changes to the shift powers at all as far as I am aware. We have been saving those for the major content patch unless it was critical.
Also, I considered not posting to this thread at all with all the backlash I got. This will certainly be my last.
It is impossible to make the shift powers instant, without any sort of cooldowns, client side predict AND still not have any rubberbanding effects when the client is lagged whilst ignoring lag and not be exploitable. Some things must give to feel responsive in more cases and still live in the world where lag and exploits could exist.
So those of us who tried to address you and the assumption of the problem gets ignored then because of a bashing???
You tried to refute our problem without even trying to reproduce the issue. If there is a cooldown it shouldn't let you use the at-wills for when you are blocking should it?
It may be impossible to fix the rubberbanding issue, but what we are trying to tell you then is our power isn't effective, not close enough to work for us. The guard needs to replaced with something different if it is impossible to function now.
If you slow/delay the moves GF will just walk out of them instead of "block" you can generally get out of the way most of the time as it is. (pve-wise)
If you hold block like you suggested previously you can't build your Guard meter up (and get guard crushed), and/or suffer from worse agro generation thus no need to block.
The class took a major hit (for those not exploiting). All we wanted you to do is test it and see if you see the problem and state if this is intended, but now you stated you will never comment again....
Before you test it, that is, and not let us know if you see issue at least or if it is intended...
Seriously you can't at least let us know if you are able to reproduce it and if this is intended or not?
I'm not envious of you right now panderus I do thank you for admitting that you may have been incorrect. Blocking is definitely broken at the moment, though. All GF players can feel it.
It's definitely not a setback we could afford to take at the moment, seeing as we are already in low demand.
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azahronMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2Arc User
Well if you guys really feel as though there is something beyond what I posted then we can look into it some. However I made the statement without researching further since there has not been any changes to the shift powers at all as far as I am aware. We have been saving those for the major content patch unless it was critical.
Also, I considered not posting to this thread at all with all the backlash I got. This will certainly be my last.
It is impossible to make the shift powers instant, without any sort of cooldowns, client side predict AND still not have any rubberbanding effects when the client is lagged whilst ignoring lag and not be exploitable. Some things must give to feel responsive in more cases and still live in the world where lag and exploits could exist.
I still appreciate the response, and thank you for looking into this further.
Well if you guys really feel as though there is something beyond what I posted then we can look into it some. However I made the statement without researching further since there has not been any changes to the shift powers at all as far as I am aware. We have been saving those for the major content patch unless it was critical.
Also, I considered not posting to this thread at all with all the backlash I got. This will certainly be my last.
Panderus the problem is not responsiveness.
Example: great weapon fighter sprints then sprints again imd after holding sprint, he will keep sprinting.
Example for guardian fighter: guardian fighter blocks then imd blocks again holding it to keep block up.
But instead of the block staying up your character lifts his shield and imd lowers it again.
The block button responds the 2nd time without lag but your character is not blocking.
So the abilety is instant its the holding down shift that doesnt work like before.
Before the last patch this worked fine.
If block is acting as it was meant to then I will not be playing GF because it is worthless.......
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scerikMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited May 2013
Just dropping by to say I feel the same lack of responsiveness with block after the most recent patch. I often get stuck in "limbo" where my character is not blocking but my on-demand abilities are acting as if I'm blocking. Any attention and help is appreciated!
This is class defining mechanic that has a bug you can recreate on demand and severely limits how the guardian can be played... Here are some more posts regarding this issue
First, Panderus, thank you for replying. Just the fact it is being acknowledged (and hopefully patched soon) is good news. Second, I don't think I've ever seen a games forum thread where a developer posted that didn't include a handful of complaints... take it with a grain of salt, it is the internets.
In all seriousness though, thank you and it would be greatly appreciated that this be fixed/patched as soon as possible.
First, Panderus, thank you for replying. Just the fact it is being acknowledged (and hopefully patched soon) is good news. Second, I don't think I've ever seen a games forum thread where a developer posted that didn't include a handful of complaints... take it with a grain of salt, it is the internets.
In all seriousness though, thank you and it would be greatly appreciated that this be fixed/patched as soon as possible.
Please don't misread his response. He said that this was something they could look in to further. There's no guarantee that there's a fix.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
i lolled when i read "they got most of their only toys taken away, like the damage glitch"
Thx for that needed a laugh, i respond wel to idiocracy
On-topic, obviuesly this is a band-aid fix and wil get looked into guys, they couldent simply allow people to permablock/permasprint etc etc... i understand u dident do so and are effected by this band-aid. But having guys stand before a boss 24/7 with gaurd up would be far more detremental to the game. I wil be rolling a GF next so im wondering what wil happen next to... but im sure this wont be the final-fix, at least imo they wil improve the coding how the game handles this respons. But obviuesly client side cannot be trusted after this and is of-limits to utility powers...i wil be keeping my eye on this bug aswell hope it gets improved in the next major patch for all u GF players out there...
Petram Sacram - I am no devine cleric, i am a Gaurdian fighter in disguise with better threat and supportive spells -
Well if you guys really feel as though there is something beyond what I posted then we can look into it some. However I made the statement without researching further since there has not been any changes to the shift powers at all as far as I am aware. We have been saving those for the major content patch unless it was critical.
Also, I considered not posting to this thread at all with all the backlash I got. This will certainly be my last.
It is impossible to make the shift powers instant, without any sort of cooldowns, client side predict AND still not have any rubberbanding effects when the client is lagged whilst ignoring lag and not be exploitable. Some things must give to feel responsive in more cases and still live in the world where lag and exploits could exist.
You're acting as if nothing has changed from the last patch. I know for a fact something has.
Before this last patch, block values could be altered through the use of a program which allowed Guardians to exploit the Reckless Attacker feat to one shot mobs. After the patch, the program could no longer locate said values. This change also caused in game issues which essentially put an ICD on stamina skills (block, dodge, unstoppable etc.) So don't come into a thread to claim this has "always been there." Since the games been out you could use block willy nilly without any sort of limitation apart from the animation. Since the patch, you have about 1.5 seconds of wait time before block will actually take effect. Stop lying.
You're acting as if nothing has changed from the last patch. I know for a fact something has.
Before this last patch, block values could be altered through the use of a program which allowed Guardians to exploit the Reckless Attacker feat to one shot mobs. After the patch, the program could no longer locate said values. This change also caused in game issues which essentially put an ICD on stamina skills (block, dodge, unstoppable etc.) So don't come into a thread to claim this has "always been there." Since the games been out you could use block willy nilly without any sort of limitation apart from the animation. Since the patch, you have about 1.5 seconds of wait time before block will actually take effect. Stop lying.
Ouch. You're gonna get slapped for your insolence!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Still trying to find a reference to AD in my AD&D Manuals.
You're acting as if nothing has changed from the last patch. I know for a fact something has.
Before this last patch, block values could be altered through the use of a program which allowed Guardians to exploit the Reckless Attacker feat to one shot mobs. After the patch, the program could no longer locate said values. This change also caused in game issues which essentially put an ICD on stamina skills (block, dodge, unstoppable etc.) So don't come into a thread to claim this has "always been there." Since the games been out you could use block willy nilly without any sort of limitation apart from the animation. Since the patch, you have about 1.5 seconds of wait time before block will actually take effect. Stop lying.
This (you) are why we can't have nice things. Did you ever stop for a moment to think that in a project as large as an MMO, an individual dev might not know every change that is being made?
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Well if you guys really feel as though there is something beyond what I posted then we can look into it some. However I made the statement without researching further since there has not been any changes to the shift powers at all as far as I am aware. We have been saving those for the major content patch unless it was critical.
Also, I considered not posting to this thread at all with all the backlash I got. This will certainly be my last.
It is impossible to make the shift powers instant, without any sort of cooldowns, client side predict AND still not have any rubberbanding effects when the client is lagged whilst ignoring lag and not be exploitable. Some things must give to feel responsive in more cases and still live in the world where lag and exploits could exist.
A cooldown is fine, when it works properly. Such as there is a cooldown on my teleport shift skill as CW. When I try to do it twice fast, it simple just teleports once and the second press does nothing. It would be fine with my guard too, if that's how it happened, but it's not whats going on.
The second part of it is that this isn't just happening when trying to block twice in a row. It happens every time I try to use block after using an encounter or threatening rush (this is arguably the most painful consequence).
And it's not just a case of block 'not working' because of a cooldown or windup. It's actually entering a bugged state where block at wills are triggering but you are not actually blocking.
What is REALLY killing me is this bugging out after using skills (encounters / threatening rush) then trying to block, this is the real killer... I can deal with waiting a bit to put my block up after just releasing it, that's not much of a deal to me.. But this other problem is making life real hard.
Since the community (client side) is only as strong as its weakest link, this change had to be implemented to stop the exploits ocuring that some weak minded people where abusing, destroying the fun for everybody else in it. Since its not server side, latency issue's are to be expected and delay on activation/disabling gaurd is a given depending ure latency. But im quite hopefull they fixed this rather quick and wil take this into consideration on a big patch, i remain thinking this was a band-aid and not the actual operation...
Petram Sacram - I am no devine cleric, i am a Gaurdian fighter in disguise with better threat and supportive spells -
Its not just a problem with a block its with all dodge mechanics. Sometimes when you dodge out of an attack you rubberband back into it after whatever change was made. Never happened until recently and its not just me.
I've never rubberbanded maybe you have a bad computer or connection man
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Loki < The Illuminati > 60 - Control Wizard
Protocol 60 - Great Weapon Fighter
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dahkohtlewMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 17Arc User
This (you) are why we can't have nice things. Did you ever stop for a moment to think that in a project as large as an MMO, an individual dev might not know every change that is being made?
That dev should not imply nothing has changed , working as intended , use your block quicker and leave it up (rofl)then later throw in a "something had to give" for the main mechanic of the class.
Like it or not the Dev in this thread did nothing but throw gasoline onto the fire.
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snowballoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
If block stays server side, it has to be reworked completely to work in a different way.
The way it is now it's an unreliable, bad mechanic that can bug out on you any time and more often than not.
Snow's Melee Arena:NW-DMT7STJ9E Combat arena. Adjustable challenge.
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Duration: Adjustable 1 - 25min
@zzzzzdank, i would argue by the sounds of whats happening that block is a message that has multiple parts in it, like 1) put at wills x +x at location x 2) put value x to x, being the shield.
If this is the case it is likely that only message 1 makes it true to the server, but not message 2 so u would have to deactivate the entire sequence to try again and hope it succeeds completely....
No clue if this is correct btw, it would just make more sense to me if this is the case?...
Petram Sacram - I am no devine cleric, i am a Gaurdian fighter in disguise with better threat and supportive spells -
Theres actually a short cooldown and activate time on block and other Shift powers. Its better to keep block up than let it down if you are going to need it again so quickly.
They are also all predicted client side, so if theres a bit of latency and you get hit when trying to dodge/block something late it will rubberband you back, but most times it just lets block and roll feel smoother, which is critical for these sorts of abilities to feel and look better in more cases.
Then why does it look like i'm blocking but i'm still taking damage? If this is supposed to be intended then why does my character still act like she's blocking. On another note, blocking is not the same as teleporting or dodging. We have to block a lot more quickly for certain situations and the """"Cooldown""""" on block is utter BS and is only being implemented for PVP.
Well if you guys really feel as though there is something beyond what I posted then we can look into it some. However I made the statement without researching further since there has not been any changes to the shift powers at all as far as I am aware. We have been saving those for the major content patch unless it was critical.
Also, I considered not posting to this thread at all with all the backlash I got. This will certainly be my last.
It is impossible to make the shift powers instant, without any sort of cooldowns, client side predict AND still not have any rubberbanding effects when the client is lagged whilst ignoring lag and not be exploitable. Some things must give to feel responsive in more cases and still live in the world where lag and exploits could exist.
It is not whether we FEEL as though there is something beyond what you posted but the FACT that we, as players, KNOW that something changed because the mechanic is NOT performing the way it was prior to the hotfix.
And to make claims that there has not been any changes is just insulting our intelligence. We know there was an exploit and we know that the team pounced on it, thankfully. The response to the exploit and the fix is much appreciated. But please do not try and deceive your players in an attempt to sweep stuff under the rug to make less work for yourselves.
With that said. Thank you for the attempt to communicate.
"Beware the engineers of society, I say, who would make everyone in all the world equal. Opportunity should be equal, must be equal, but achievement must remain individual."
Signed. I tried the same and the class is now unplayable. I can block the first time but if I try to block again it will fail every time. This is unacceptable in an action based game. The enemies will not wait for me to get my shield back up because of this ridiculous change. On one character I have been forced to walk since level 23 due to the fact selecting a skill broke my mount. Now my other character can't even be played properly because I can't use his primary mechanic to block due to this "fix". I'm not really feeling the game anymore due to these wonderful issues.
I know people say it is open beta but that is a poor excuse. The response I received in my CS ticket is to go to the customer service page and update a ticket. The best part is the CS page is broken with a loop error that has been reported on the forums. I mentioned this in my ticket and it was like the customer service representative didn't even read the ticket... shocking!
Well if you guys really feel as though there is something beyond what I posted then we can look into it some. However I made the statement without researching further since there has not been any changes to the shift powers at all as far as I am aware. We have been saving those for the major content patch unless it was critical.
Well that isn't entirely true. You guys fixed stamina hacks recently by presumably adding serverside checks. It has caused a lot of problems with all classes shift abilities. It seems that the server often disagrees with the client about when you can and can't use stamina (even if you aren't hacking) and this causes a huge responsiveness issue.
I can dodge out of a mechanic on my Wizard, for example, and then <insert latency time here> the server actually informs me that I wasn't able to dash at that point and rolls me back into the mechanic. It's just a result of a poorly QA'd fix to an apparent critical issue.
That being said, I don't understand why it matters if people hack stamina. Movement is clientside in WoW, the most popular MMO ever built, and it is clearly intentional. Isn't it possible that stamina can remain entirely clientside and use the serverside checks for GF stamina values to prevent damage exploits?
I'm sure people are fine with the odd hacker running around if it means they can use their shift key properly.
Then why does it look like i'm blocking but i'm still taking damage? If this is supposed to be intended then why does my character still act like she's blocking. On another note, blocking is not the same as teleporting or dodging. We have to block a lot more quickly for certain situations and the """"Cooldown""""" on block is utter BS and is only being implemented for PVP.
Ok I did some testing with all of my characters. The problem seems to be at the intersection of the shift key and the animation. On my CW if I just keep double tapping my movement key I will blink 3 times right in a row seemingly without pause. But what is really happening is the animation is finishing and I am blinking immediately after. However, if I use shift to blink, and on my second blink hit shift before the animation is finished...tada no blink, and it wont reset until i release shift and press it again.
All the classes except GWF have this same "cooldown". However for the other classes since they are moving, we dont think of it as such, but rather interpret it as a 'move'.
So, how does this play into GF. First, double tap does not work for us, so we have to use shift. Problem is their is no clear animation that tells us...ok u can use shift again and the GF gets stuck in shift key limbo.
Now, since GWF does not have this cooldown issue, a solution already exists, unless of course it is because the info for GWF is client side still at which point we would be back to square one.
Comments
Probably a new sig.
So those of us who tried to address you and the assumption of the problem gets ignored then because of a bashing???
You tried to refute our problem without even trying to reproduce the issue. If there is a cooldown it shouldn't let you use the at-wills for when you are blocking should it?
It may be impossible to fix the rubberbanding issue, but what we are trying to tell you then is our power isn't effective, not close enough to work for us. The guard needs to replaced with something different if it is impossible to function now.
If you slow/delay the moves GF will just walk out of them instead of "block" you can generally get out of the way most of the time as it is. (pve-wise)
If you hold block like you suggested previously you can't build your Guard meter up (and get guard crushed), and/or suffer from worse agro generation thus no need to block.
The class took a major hit (for those not exploiting). All we wanted you to do is test it and see if you see the problem and state if this is intended, but now you stated you will never comment again....
Before you test it, that is, and not let us know if you see issue at least or if it is intended...
Seriously you can't at least let us know if you are able to reproduce it and if this is intended or not?
It's definitely not a setback we could afford to take at the moment, seeing as we are already in low demand.
I still appreciate the response, and thank you for looking into this further.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?286842-Guard-ability-broken
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?285582-GuardianFighter-Block-button-problems
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?288402-Guardian-Fighter-s-Guard-ability-not-working-properly
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?294151-Guardian-Block-totally-unresponsive-now
Not only that but elsewhere they got most of their only toys taken away, like the damage glitch and AC.
At this point, even to an outsider, it looks like kicking a drowning kitten... I feel for you any remaining GF's, I do!
In all seriousness though, thank you and it would be greatly appreciated that this be fixed/patched as soon as possible.
Please don't misread his response. He said that this was something they could look in to further. There's no guarantee that there's a fix.
I'm just 'a little' satisfied that at least one of them officially acknowledged the complaints and will look into it. On a Sunday night none the less.
edit: because really if it isn't fixed I'll either delete my gf, roll another class, or just quit the game.
Thx for that needed a laugh, i respond wel to idiocracy
On-topic, obviuesly this is a band-aid fix and wil get looked into guys, they couldent simply allow people to permablock/permasprint etc etc... i understand u dident do so and are effected by this band-aid. But having guys stand before a boss 24/7 with gaurd up would be far more detremental to the game. I wil be rolling a GF next so im wondering what wil happen next to... but im sure this wont be the final-fix, at least imo they wil improve the coding how the game handles this respons. But obviuesly client side cannot be trusted after this and is of-limits to utility powers...i wil be keeping my eye on this bug aswell
You're acting as if nothing has changed from the last patch. I know for a fact something has.
Before this last patch, block values could be altered through the use of a program which allowed Guardians to exploit the Reckless Attacker feat to one shot mobs. After the patch, the program could no longer locate said values. This change also caused in game issues which essentially put an ICD on stamina skills (block, dodge, unstoppable etc.) So don't come into a thread to claim this has "always been there." Since the games been out you could use block willy nilly without any sort of limitation apart from the animation. Since the patch, you have about 1.5 seconds of wait time before block will actually take effect. Stop lying.
Wrath - 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer
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Ouch. You're gonna get slapped for your insolence!
This (you) are why we can't have nice things. Did you ever stop for a moment to think that in a project as large as an MMO, an individual dev might not know every change that is being made?
A cooldown is fine, when it works properly. Such as there is a cooldown on my teleport shift skill as CW. When I try to do it twice fast, it simple just teleports once and the second press does nothing. It would be fine with my guard too, if that's how it happened, but it's not whats going on.
The second part of it is that this isn't just happening when trying to block twice in a row. It happens every time I try to use block after using an encounter or threatening rush (this is arguably the most painful consequence).
And it's not just a case of block 'not working' because of a cooldown or windup. It's actually entering a bugged state where block at wills are triggering but you are not actually blocking.
What is REALLY killing me is this bugging out after using skills (encounters / threatening rush) then trying to block, this is the real killer... I can deal with waiting a bit to put my block up after just releasing it, that's not much of a deal to me.. But this other problem is making life real hard.
I've never rubberbanded maybe you have a bad computer or connection man
Loki < The Illuminati > 60 - Control Wizard
Protocol 60 - Great Weapon Fighter
That dev should not imply nothing has changed , working as intended , use your block quicker and leave it up (rofl)then later throw in a "something had to give" for the main mechanic of the class.
Like it or not the Dev in this thread did nothing but throw gasoline onto the fire.
The way it is now it's an unreliable, bad mechanic that can bug out on you any time and more often than not.
Combat arena. Adjustable challenge.
Difficulty: Adjustable easy - very hard
Duration: Adjustable 1 - 25min
If this is the case it is likely that only message 1 makes it true to the server, but not message 2 so u would have to deactivate the entire sequence to try again and hope it succeeds completely....
No clue if this is correct btw, it would just make more sense to me if this is the case?...
Makes my GF unplayable.
Then why does it look like i'm blocking but i'm still taking damage? If this is supposed to be intended then why does my character still act like she's blocking. On another note, blocking is not the same as teleporting or dodging. We have to block a lot more quickly for certain situations and the """"Cooldown""""" on block is utter BS and is only being implemented for PVP.
It is not whether we FEEL as though there is something beyond what you posted but the FACT that we, as players, KNOW that something changed because the mechanic is NOT performing the way it was prior to the hotfix.
And to make claims that there has not been any changes is just insulting our intelligence. We know there was an exploit and we know that the team pounced on it, thankfully. The response to the exploit and the fix is much appreciated. But please do not try and deceive your players in an attempt to sweep stuff under the rug to make less work for yourselves.
With that said. Thank you for the attempt to communicate.
- Drizzt Do'Urden
― R.A. Salvatore
I know people say it is open beta but that is a poor excuse. The response I received in my CS ticket is to go to the customer service page and update a ticket. The best part is the CS page is broken with a loop error that has been reported on the forums. I mentioned this in my ticket and it was like the customer service representative didn't even read the ticket... shocking!
Well that isn't entirely true. You guys fixed stamina hacks recently by presumably adding serverside checks. It has caused a lot of problems with all classes shift abilities. It seems that the server often disagrees with the client about when you can and can't use stamina (even if you aren't hacking) and this causes a huge responsiveness issue.
I can dodge out of a mechanic on my Wizard, for example, and then <insert latency time here> the server actually informs me that I wasn't able to dash at that point and rolls me back into the mechanic. It's just a result of a poorly QA'd fix to an apparent critical issue.
That being said, I don't understand why it matters if people hack stamina. Movement is clientside in WoW, the most popular MMO ever built, and it is clearly intentional. Isn't it possible that stamina can remain entirely clientside and use the serverside checks for GF stamina values to prevent damage exploits?
I'm sure people are fine with the odd hacker running around if it means they can use their shift key properly.
Ok I did some testing with all of my characters. The problem seems to be at the intersection of the shift key and the animation. On my CW if I just keep double tapping my movement key I will blink 3 times right in a row seemingly without pause. But what is really happening is the animation is finishing and I am blinking immediately after. However, if I use shift to blink, and on my second blink hit shift before the animation is finished...tada no blink, and it wont reset until i release shift and press it again.
All the classes except GWF have this same "cooldown". However for the other classes since they are moving, we dont think of it as such, but rather interpret it as a 'move'.
So, how does this play into GF. First, double tap does not work for us, so we have to use shift. Problem is their is no clear animation that tells us...ok u can use shift again and the GF gets stuck in shift key limbo.
Now, since GWF does not have this cooldown issue, a solution already exists, unless of course it is because the info for GWF is client side still at which point we would be back to square one.