Well, this deserves a lot more attention as it is far more coherent.
given how long it would take for you to grind an extra character slot, and the fact that would have to factor in a lot more of this silly "Neverwinter: auctioneer" mentality, or a boat load of patience, I simply just boil it down to the fact, that in my opinion, they're just monetizing the WRONG things. And overcharging for what they can be argued to be right about monetizing.
To compare an MMO, to another, but only in the sense that we compare it to how it was several YEARS ago, is to me... highly irrational. Progression in game development should move FORWARD, there's always room for back-steps mind you, but you should never look at a games flaws which are similar to a game on release several years back of the same genre, if it was a mistake the first time, why is it ok for another game to be released with the SAME MISTAKE.
"Did I ever tell you, the definition of insanity..." -Vaas
I just don't see, why some folks feel it's ok for a game to be designed, with the same massively inherent flaws of another game, years after said game has dealt with the problems in a pragmatic way.
I hate to break it to ya but in ANY MMO, the game is a grind. or what some game developer called "carrot on a stick"
You gotta have the next carrot. Do you need said carrots? well, only if you think you do. I do have friends who are into game development (boy can they party) and that is the basic of MMO.
You start off weak. with little skill, you skill stuff, gain skill, get better gear, kill higher level stuff, get better, get even better gear to kill higher level stuff.
It is a carrot to get you to play more and more to get that "max level" or "max gear" cause that carrot is enticing. It could be psychological "epeen" that you must have that item before anyone else to "win MMO" or just want to have "that one skill that is awesome at max level" or able to do "1% more damage"
There isn't a MMO out there that doesn't use a carrot. It has to. The content team can't keep up. Even the newest game, content is getting gobble up in DAYS which took MONTHS to develop. this is why I feel Foundry is a good add-on so player can make more content to keep the masses happy (more carrots)
The carrot could be high level dungeon, end level epic gear, buying that shiny mount, buying a house, starting a guild, or have all the option (i.e. all bank slots whatever)
Do we need all that? that is debatable.
What F2P model offer is some "shortcut" to grind less in traditional MMO. I remember in WoW back in the day took me a long time before I can make my own 28 slot bag (I can't afford it lack of gold since I spend on mounts) that was my carrot. now I don't have grind for it if I don't want to. I can buy my bag.
lancemeszarosMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
As someone who has played both of Cryptic's other games (Star Trek Online and Champions Online), my first impressions of Neverwinter was astonishment at how the simplest of game mechanics are either not included at all, or hidden behind pay windows. Let's compare quickly with the other two: in STO and CO I can, any time I want, run up to a tailor and change absolutely everything about my character's appearance, from their body and facial shape to their costume. I have multiple options for costume pieces, even as a free player, and can choose the colors and any symbols on said costumes. All of that can be done for each game's version of gold, not dilithium/questionite (astral diamonds) or zen. Compare to Neverwinter and I have a more limited body and facial morpher, no choice of costumes beyond what my armor and any fashion items look like (and only peasant gear for free player fashion items), and I can't even change the color selection without buying dye bottles from the zen store or the celestial dye bottles from the ardent store. In STO I have full customisability over my bridge officers, and can change their look and uniform at any time, same as my main character, for gold. I can even change their abilities to make them more useful, which is only limited by their class. In Neverwinter, each companion is limited to one of a handful of costumes and a few enchantment and item slots, and I can't change enchantments without paying in astral diamonds. Even something as simple as knowing what's in your inventory requires astral diamonds; over half my inventory right now is unidentified items because not enough scrolls of identification are dropping.
I'm aware that, even with all this, Neverwinter's model is a lot more forgiving than most F2P MMOs, but compared to Cryptic's other MMOs, it's absolutely terrible. Basic functions and character customization are locked away when there's absolutely no reason for them to be. If STO had the same system, the player base would be a lot less, and that means a lot fewer people paying.
Based of ever changing skills? What are you smoking? Plan out your character and stop blaming your ignorance on the game.
Yes, ever changing and being balanced. Learn wtf you're talking about before spouting off childish insults,k?
And as to them giving out free re-specs when balance changes are made, I'll believe that when I see it.
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zerowaitMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited May 2013
The only solution I can think of without hurting/altering the current prices of Zen Store is to add MORE DAILY QUEST or better, an additional % of AD per reward!
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
As someone who has played both of Cryptic's other games (Star Trek Online and Champions Online), my first impressions of Neverwinter was astonishment at how the simplest of game mechanics are either not included at all, or hidden behind pay windows. Let's compare quickly with the other two: in STO and CO I can, any time I want, run up to a tailor and change absolutely everything about my character's appearance, from their body and facial shape to their costume. I have multiple options for costume pieces, even as a free player, and can choose the colors and any symbols on said costumes. All of that can be done for each game's version of gold, not dilithium/questionite (astral diamonds) or zen. Compare to Neverwinter and I have a more limited body and facial morpher, no choice of costumes beyond what my armor and any fashion items look like (and only peasant gear for free player fashion items), and I can't even change the color selection without buying dye bottles from the zen store or the celestial dye bottles from the ardent store. In STO I have full customisability over my bridge officers, and can change their look and uniform at any time, same as my main character, for gold. I can even change their abilities to make them more useful, which is only limited by their class. In Neverwinter, each companion is limited to one of a handful of costumes and a few enchantment and item slots, and I can't change enchantments without paying in astral diamonds. Even something as simple as knowing what's in your inventory requires astral diamonds; over half my inventory right now is unidentified items because not enough scrolls of identification are dropping.
I'm aware that, even with all this, Neverwinter's model is a lot more forgiving than most F2P MMOs, but compared to Cryptic's other MMOs, it's absolutely terrible. Basic functions and character customization are locked away when there's absolutely no reason for them to be. If STO had the same system, the player base would be a lot less, and that means a lot fewer people paying.
I have to agree that the options are not there, but there is a minor issue that you have to look at.
STO and CO was originally Sub game. Sub game have options that allow players to do thing within the game cause well.. there is no cash option. When it goes F2P, these option stay which help new players a lot.
NWN was made purely F2P from the get go I compare NWN to Asian style popular F2P game that was never sub first then turn F2P.
Would these feature be nice to have in game? sure!
I hate to break it to ya but in ANY MMO, the game is a grind. or what some game developer called "carrot on a stick"
You gotta have the next carrot. Do you need said carrots? well, only if you think you do. I do have friends who are into game development (boy can they party) and that is the basic of MMO.
You start off weak. with little skill, you skill stuff, gain skill, get better gear, kill higher level stuff, get better, get even better gear to kill higher level stuff.
It is a carrot to get you to play more and more to get that "max level" or "max gear" cause that carrot is enticing. It could be psychological "epeen" that you must have that item before anyone else to "win MMO" or just want to have "that one skill that is awesome at max level" or able to do "1% more damage"
There isn't a MMO out there that doesn't use a carrot. It has to. The content team can't keep up. Even the newest game, content is getting gobble up in DAYS which took MONTHS to develop. this is why I feel Foundry is a good add-on so player can make more content to keep the masses happy (more carrots)
The carrot could be high level dungeon, end level epic gear, buying that shiny mount, buying a house, starting a guild, or have all the option (i.e. all bank slots whatever)
Do we need all that? that is debatable.
What F2P model offer is some "shortcut" to grind less in traditional MMO. I remember in WoW back in the day took me a long time before I can make my own 28 slot bag (I can't afford it lack of gold since I spend on mounts) that was my carrot. now I don't have grind for it if I don't want to. I can buy my bag.
I know, you did read the post didn't you?
Grinding is ok, it's not something to be feared. But it is however something that shouldn't be held up against you in a threatening manner. Grinding in this game seems so pointless due to the time needed to break even (and yes it's by design I know) that it's more of a bully tactic and a threat than an alternative.
What you're referring to by "carrot on a stick" is GOALS. If your players have no goals, then they're less bothered. If your goals are at the end of a variable track with a ton of intrusive pay to get ahead offers and RNG reliance, and you can bet your bottom dollar, folks will look at it and most of the time laugh at you, and just because some folks then proceed to see this as a challenge, doesn't mean you made the most optimal road to a goal, it means that there's some players that will play anything and are easily pleased or can't see the actual design, now if that's how your buddies in game design do things, then I hate to break it to ya, but the guys building for that are hacks with no talent, or have hands up their rears with a publishers name on them.
Foundry, will keep a certain part of the community playing, it is a remnant of what this game COULD have been, and SHOULD have been that may very well be it's "selling point" for lack of a better term.
And again, comparing a game created in 2013 with one from 2004, is basically saying
"games development has not learned anything in those years"
Sorry, but I cannot consider that right. And if we consider the games as different due to the payment models, that then makes it apples and oranges.
Really what this boils down to is the grind alternative, is really not a very good alternative and instead creates a lot of bad friction between players that feel they want to play and support this game, but the fact that it feels to them they're trying to be bullied into it as ugly and intrusive and a perversion of what they feel a game should be doing.
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Grinding is ok, it's not something to be feared. But it is however something that shouldn't be held up against you in a threatening manner. Grinding in this game seems so pointless due to the time needed to break even (and yes it's by design I know) that it's more of a bully tactic and a threat than an alternative.
What you're referring to by "carrot on a stick" is GOALS. If your players have no goals, then they're less bothered. If your goals are at the end of a variable track with a ton of intrusive pay to get ahead offers and RNG reliance, and you can bet your bottom dollar, folks will look at it and most of the time laugh at you, and just because some folks then proceed to see this as a challenge, doesn't mean you made the most optimal road to a goal, it means that there's some players that will play anything and are easily pleased or can't see the actual design, now if that's how your buddies in game design do things, then I hate to break it to ya, but the guys building for that are hacks with no talent, or have hands up their rears with a publishers name on them.
Foundry, will keep a certain part of the community playing, it is a remnant of what this game COULD have been, and SHOULD have been that may very well be it's "selling point" for lack of a better term.
And again, comparing a game created in 2013 with a from 2004, is basically saying
"games development has not learned anything in those years"
Sorry, but I cannot consider that right. And if we consider the games as different due to the payment models, that then makes it apples and oranges.
Really what this boils down to is the grind alternative, is really not a very good alternative and instead creates a lot of bad friction between players that feel they want to play and support this game, but the fact that it feels to them they're trying to be bullied into it as ugly and intrusive and a perversion of what they feel a game should be doing.
I did read but you reply as fast as I can reply to the other (looks like you and I type pretty fast)
Well like I said what are the "goals" in MMO?
- Levels
- Gear
- Power/skills (earn by levels)
- Story
In most games there are levels. you start at 1 and get to max. (except for TSW and EVE there are no levels just skills learning) Once you are max, what goals are there?
Power/skills - these are usually tied to levels. You get more powerful skills/spells, but at max, there isn't anymore to earn.
Gear - this is popular goals. Gear from 1 to max, epic level Tier 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc (WoW does this well)
Story- there are some good story but Devs can only create so much. Again look at the popular WoW. It took how many years to "flesh it out" I remember back in Vanilla there wasn't much until the "BIG carrot of AQ40 *shudders*"
Optional Art - some devs toss in ways to earn different art. different look on your items/skills. New clothing, new armor look (same stats)
merrybelleMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
I think the cash shop prices are fine. Only thing I really don't like are the gamble boxes, and I have less respect for Cryptic than I had before they joined with Perfect World and became so greedy. If you really want to protest, why don't you protest that? That's where they are really gouging their customers. I would rather get what I pay for straightforward and not rely on luck. I'm not wasting a single cent on keys or boxes, and thanks to the currency exchange I don't even blow my leftover zen on a key, I just convert it to AD instead.
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
I think the cash shop prices are fine. Only thing I really don't like are the gamble boxes, and I have less respect for Cryptic than I had before they joined with Perfect World and became so greedy. If you really want to protest, why don't you protest that? That's where they are really gouging their customers. I would rather get what I pay for straightforward and not rely on luck. I'm not wasting a single cent on keys or boxes, and thanks to the currency exchange I don't even blow my leftover zen on a key, I just convert it to AD instead.
Now that I can agree it is a gambler's effect. A small chance to get that one "shiny" item that no one have. Sometimes the "epeen" drive players to get that. Like the first person to get "whatever" that everyone else can't get.
So bugs and everything aside, I just cannot get over how greedy the zen store model is. I love the combat, races, questing, ect. It's just no matter how much fun I seem to have, I think about how bad the end-game is and how absurdly greedy PWE is, and I just lose all interest in this game. Unless they COMPLETELY overhaul the zen store, I see no future at all for this game, which is a shame. Hopefully Cryptic and other companys learn from this mistake. Gamers can smell bull-**** from a mile away, and their store just reeks of it.
I really, REALLY wish the store and end-game were better. I had such high hopes for this game, being both a D&D fan and a fan of MMOs. The kicker is, I would of easily dropped hundreds of dollars on this game if they werent so blatantly greedy, and I know I'm not alone.
TL;DR: PWE ruined an otherwise awesome game with their greed. Hopefully future MMOs learn from this.
i back you 100% bro it is gonna kill this game, we shouldnt be forced into paying for basic things like respec and more bag space or more character slots its breaks me to see how fail zen store and end game is people should not be able to buy there entire lvl 60 gear from AH. and honestly if the people who made these decisions are not HAMSTER than they must not care much for the future of this game it is going to be dead within a month at this rate.
Thanks for the feedback! We're actively monitoring the feedback on this, so please keep posting your comments! As users in the thread have started, it's our continual goal to make all Zen Market items either optional (i.e. cosmetic/convenience), or attainable through utilizing the Astral Diamond exchange. Overall, Neverwinter is designed to be 100% Free to Play, meaning that we want you to be able to enjoy the entire core experience and have a ton of fun without paying a dime. Please continue to let us know how close we are to achieving this goal!
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Thanks for the feedback! We're actively monitoring the feedback on this, so please keep posting your comments! As users in the thread have started, it's our continual goal to make all Zen Market items either optional (i.e. cosmetic/convenience), or attainable through utilizing the Astral Diamond exchange. Overall, Neverwinter is designed to be 100% Free to Play, meaning that we want you to be able to enjoy the entire core experience and have a ton of fun without paying a dime. Please continue to let us know how close we are to achieving this goal!
I personally don't agree 100% of the system. I think some of the AD prices should be lowered (thus easier to attain) like respec. Now I do notice that Bags ARE interchangable (i.e. does not Bind) so $10 "might" be justifyable BUT I think it is a bit high IMO.
OR give more dailies that can earn rough AD. Similar to STO, there are many many many ways to earn rough dilithium (duty officer, turn in items, missions, dailies, quests, ) so earning your limit (8k) was easy. but in NWN it is a bit more work to earn 24k. I am not asking making it TOO easy to earn 24k but at least give us more option.
I did read but you reply as fast as I can reply to the other (looks like you and I type pretty fast)
Well like I said what are the "goals" in MMO?
- Levels
- Gear
- Power/skills (earn by levels)
- Story
In most games there are levels. you start at 1 and get to max. (except for TSW and EVE there are no levels just skills learning) Once you are max, what goals are there?
Power/skills - these are usually tied to levels. You get more powerful skills/spells, but at max, there isn't anymore to earn.
Gear - this is popular goals. Gear from 1 to max, epic level Tier 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc (WoW does this well)
Story- there are some good story but Devs can only create so much. Again look at the popular WoW. It took how many years to "flesh it out" I remember back in Vanilla there wasn't much until the "BIG carrot of AQ40 *shudders*"
Optional Art - some devs toss in ways to earn different art. different look on your items/skills. New clothing, new armor look (same stats)
And all of those, to a degree are fine, if the gameplay itself is compelling and can be enjoyed enough, then no (reasonable) amount of grind is going to deter players, but all of those can be altered by a constant feeling that you're better off just paying them repeated large infusions of cash to avoid frustration, and that's when players start getting annoyed, they feel the game is great but it's held back by it's monetization instead of supplimented by it. This game manages to do that a lot, and they need to realize that in the end all they do is get players to consider sticking around and not paying a cent towards it despite being able to even on occasion, as just treating them, as they're seemingly treating us.
And again, while WoW should be looked to as a good MMO for all intents and purposes, despite it's direction being "questionable" at the moment, you can't really say, it's a great idea to clone the game, and recreate the faults all over again when you could have easily sorted them and gotten something better than the template.
But the real issue is not that this game has not-so-micro-transactions, but that the way they incorporate them in a "pay us or face the grind-torture-rack" manner.
Thanks for the feedback! We're actively monitoring the feedback on this, so please keep posting your comments! As users in the thread have started, it's our continual goal to make all Zen Market items either optional (i.e. cosmetic/convenience), or attainable through utilizing the Astral Diamond exchange. Overall, Neverwinter is designed to be 100% Free to Play, meaning that we want you to be able to enjoy the entire core experience and have a ton of fun without paying a dime. Please continue to let us know how close we are to achieving this goal!
Really? So Respecing is optional and its a convenience? Its a core game mechanic. You really think everyone will get their build right the first time?
Thanks for the feedback! We're actively monitoring the feedback on this, so please keep posting your comments! As users in the thread have started, it's our continual goal to make all Zen Market items either optional (i.e. cosmetic/convenience), or attainable through utilizing the Astral Diamond exchange. Overall, Neverwinter is designed to be 100% Free to Play, meaning that we want you to be able to enjoy the entire core experience and have a ton of fun without paying a dime. Please continue to let us know how close we are to achieving this goal!
Maybe these people are happier with Banner Ads. Subscribe to Netflix for $7.99 and get 500 zen FREE!
I don't even like calling them "greedy" I don't... I think this thread is even badly framed in that regard... but I have to say their monetization feels short sighted, and has a feeling of a lack of faith in the very players that they are expecting to help support them, when a game looks like it's whaling, it immediately gives off a bad impression that's hard to remove.
And I don't accept how folks toss Guild Wars 2 out there as a shining example of "doing it right" because they're a game that despite their issues could have set a much higher example, by not releasing yet MORE of the remnants of ZT online with those silly boxes... they're everywhere, seriously they are just everywhere and now they're even more annoying and are causing even those that used to fight me on their forum with such absolute zeal, to question the game...
"It will all be cosmetic!! no P2W esque items!!!"
Then we see the monetization and some genius has immediately decided they want to sell things with stats. and their actual cosmetic selection of purchases are tiny... Guild Wars 2 shocked me with it's absolute lack of cosmetic choices via real cash.
And before folks start saying cosmetics would cost them in terms of creation, they have a HUGE untapped potential for ideas...
THE PLAYERS.
Ask players to submit their ideas for armor types and simply make the reward be recognition via flavor text and of course a free set of the item/skin for themselves, nothing brings a community together like creativity and recognition. And all Cryptic need do is pick out the cream of the crop and translate it into the game as a skin.
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dookidMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
With those prices in the zen store Im sorry to tell you... pretty far to achieve the goal to be fully free to play (just another opinion)
Sorry for my bad english.
Although i do agree that the zen store prices are high (ie: $30 for a companion aka computer pixels) I still purchase them. Yes would i like to see them lowered (zen prices) but everything in the store is optional, and you can farm ad to trade for zen. Also the mount training you are talking about .. you do not have to have it, you can still ride one of the 5g mounts, its just a little slower.
Edited to add.. for a free game somebody has to pay something, other wise how would they make their money...
The problem is most gamers don't stick around in games that long and honestly most anyone thats lvl 60 and probly has a lvl 60 alt at this point aswell. Has consumed all the content this game has to offer aside from random foundry content. The pvp is non existant and pointless and is nothing more then a quick easy way to gear up to skip T1 content and go straight into T2. If you wan't to compete at the upper end of this game you have to spend money plane and simple. Those that say other wise are being mislead no one is going to spend 3 to 6 months farming AD to convert to zen just to get a marginal upgrade or to combine a epic enhancement without the possibility of loseing it.
Most people would rather pay for these conviences much like those of us that would rather this be a sub model. The problem that happens is these items are priced so high that anyone with any reason will not and simply your enjoyement of the game falls off at that point. Most gamers bounce from game to game and at best anyone I know that I've gamed with in the last 14 years barely stays with a game more then a month 2 tops without moving on. There is no encentive to want to pay these high prices unless you don't value your hard earned money. If the prices were dropped by 75% you might get a much larger majority of the gameing populace to pay and enjoy this game. The barrier right now is set that only the people that are crazy enough to spend 100's of dollars a month will find that enjoyment. I have a RL Friend who's already spent right at $400 bucks on the game that right there is already double what I would pay for an entire year or a subscription model. In the last 14 years of gaming I have consistently had 2 subscriptions to any number of games from EQ back in 1999 to the most current games these days. Thats just over 5 grand that I've spent on online gameing in that time not including computer, internet etc..
To think that this games priceing plan is so out of line with what most people will pay is a shame as most of my friends that came up paying the subscription model have moved on because the value simply isn't there even if the montly fee was $30 bucks most would stick around. The problem with the current setup is things like 1 simple bag costing 10 bucks and yet thats not even account wide is a complete rip off. I delete huge amnts of green gear or simply refuse to pick them up as most of the people in the 200+ person guild I'm in dose the same. Anyways I've typed way more then I wanted to PWE doesn't have blinders on there just abuseing customers that don't have the economic sense to say this is over the top.
It's not always 6$ for respec. You can earn AD in-game and convert to ZEN, then buy respec.
It would cost you around 225k AD for 1 time respec. This way you don't have to spend real money if you want to, of course it will take you more time.
Everything can be earned in-game without spending real money because you can always convert AD to ZEN and other way around.
If you are good at trading/dealing on Broker, you can also earn more AD and save sometime.
I have nothing against Zen market, it's a simple economy to provide you a free game and also bring profit to the company.
The only thing they need to take into account is the price of these virtual items, it should be at a reasonable price, not to exploit too much, otherwise it's like the topic title said "ruining the game"
I'm still playing and enjoying the game for free, the combat is really fun, but it is clearly obvious what this payment "model" and end game is all about. I would much rather the game be sub based instead of the disgusting mess it is now.
I'm a big PvPer but I don't have a whole lot of hope for this game in that department though, it is a D&D game which was pretty much made for PvE / Co-Op / Dungeon Running / Raiding, and that is completely fine, in fact it is awesome, the Foundry is fantastic.
So I honestly wasn't expecting much in the PvP department and I am not really expecting much balance happening there because this game is built off the D&D ruleset which was never really designed with PvP in mind and they should stick with that.
It will make for a excellent PvE based MMO, but IMHO it could have been far better as a sub game or at least with a better payment model then the appalling place the store / micro transactions are at now, the prices are ridiculous.
For the OP: it is your right to disagree with the prices but for me personally the prices are fine.Furthermore the prices not just fine but i don't see anything in the shop what is actually needed to our gameplay.I would like to emphasize there's NOTHING in the shop which is needed to reach level 60 or play on level 60.All the items there just gives you time nothing more, and some fancy stuff that's all.
Do you need the heavy inferno mount or the phoera companion from the nightmare lockbox? No absolutely not.Those are just vanity items to show off other players how uber stuffs you have but it has nothing to do the actual gameplay.You CAN play and enjoy the full game without them.
I can understand how badly people want those items but for my opinion those are just vanity and ego-boosting items,nothing more.
In such cases when people really get desperate they tend to claim that those items are P2W or necessary to the gameplay but it isn't true no matter how hard they try to prove otherwise.
The only item what i imagine is would be nice to see it cheaper is the respec token BUT as others said, it is common practice here at PWE (which i didn't know 'tlll someone above mentioned lol)to give people one of those when they do major changes in the game.So i won't worry about that one either.
So all in all i don't see anything in the shop that would pose PWE as a "greedy" company.
Maybe i'm wrong, in this case please tell me which of the items in the shop makes you think they are greedy or makes your gameplay unenjoyable?
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lancemeszarosMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Thanks for the feedback! We're actively monitoring the feedback on this, so please keep posting your comments! As users in the thread have started, it's our continual goal to make all Zen Market items either optional (i.e. cosmetic/convenience), or attainable through utilizing the Astral Diamond exchange. Overall, Neverwinter is designed to be 100% Free to Play, meaning that we want you to be able to enjoy the entire core experience and have a ton of fun without paying a dime. Please continue to let us know how close we are to achieving this goal!
The biggest thing is to make free (or cost gold) the things that are either core gameplay concepts, or help with immersion (since this is a D&D-based game). Respecs and scrolls of identification are core gameplay functions. Make them cost gold, or at the least make respecs cost astral diamonds straight up instead of zen. There's no reason whatsoever why dye bottles and appearance alterations should cost Zen/diamonds, and in fact there should just be a tailor who can dye your items for gold. I can understand putting fashion items in the Zen store (STO and CO do that too), but there should at least be more options than a scrubby peasant outfit. Give characters the ability to craft fashion items that fit with their class, maybe one every 5 levels of crafting, and keep everything else on the Zen store. Finally, allow companions to have their appearance customizable. It really wouldn't take that much to just copy over the character creation options and apply them to companions. All of those seem to be relatively simply changes and would go a long way to making players feel more like these are our characters, our companions, and our adventures, rather than playing The Adventures of Captain Generic: Featuring Generic Companion. Get more people invested and immersed in the game, and they'll be more likely to spend money on it. In Star Trek Online, it's my captain, my ship, and my crew. It's the same with Champions Online: I'm the hero I want to be, fighting the Nemesis(es) I want to fight.
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mtgsusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
Thanks for all the feedback everyone. Im really glad a dev saw this and responded. IMO they should take on the payment model alot of successful games have used: make things in the store a little cheaper, so instead of a few people paying alot, they have alot of people paying a little. This not only increases the player base, it increases sales. Some people don't have $60 at once to spend, but find it alot easier to spend $10 here and there. That's just my opinion though, and not based on fact, just what I believe I've seen from other F2P games such as LoL and PoE. I feel that Cryptic has done an AMAZING job on the game itself, and once the bugs and such are taken care of (which are expected in a beta), the only thing holding this game back is the Zen Store. I would really like to support this game with my money, but I'm just finding it hard to justify it right now. So far I have only spent $6 on a respec, which I found upsetting enough by itself.
Re-Speccing is not core gameplay. It is a work-around, legal cheat, etc.
It's pay 4 fail. You made the error. 80 hours of community service (AD) or a small fine (600 zen).
Stupidest thing i have ever read.
Ok then give me 100% working powers and feats before charging ppl real money for broken ****.
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akikisaragiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
Imo nothing wrong with the prices. Just don't be an entitlement tightwad. There's absolutely nothing in the store that's mandatory and it can be acquired via other means.
Ugh, yet another poster posting yet another z-store is too expensive. Have you not played any other Cryptic games? They are doing fine with comparable z-stores.
Mostly because they long ago figured out theres quite a few white knights willing to spend 200 dollars on an unreleased videogame and then white knite it constantly to justify how fair and amazing PW is,
Comments
I hate to break it to ya but in ANY MMO, the game is a grind. or what some game developer called "carrot on a stick"
You gotta have the next carrot. Do you need said carrots? well, only if you think you do. I do have friends who are into game development (boy can they party) and that is the basic of MMO.
You start off weak. with little skill, you skill stuff, gain skill, get better gear, kill higher level stuff, get better, get even better gear to kill higher level stuff.
It is a carrot to get you to play more and more to get that "max level" or "max gear" cause that carrot is enticing. It could be psychological "epeen" that you must have that item before anyone else to "win MMO" or just want to have "that one skill that is awesome at max level" or able to do "1% more damage"
There isn't a MMO out there that doesn't use a carrot. It has to. The content team can't keep up. Even the newest game, content is getting gobble up in DAYS which took MONTHS to develop. this is why I feel Foundry is a good add-on so player can make more content to keep the masses happy (more carrots)
The carrot could be high level dungeon, end level epic gear, buying that shiny mount, buying a house, starting a guild, or have all the option (i.e. all bank slots whatever)
Do we need all that? that is debatable.
What F2P model offer is some "shortcut" to grind less in traditional MMO. I remember in WoW back in the day took me a long time before I can make my own 28 slot bag (I can't afford it lack of gold since I spend on mounts) that was my carrot. now I don't have grind for it if I don't want to. I can buy my bag.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
I'm aware that, even with all this, Neverwinter's model is a lot more forgiving than most F2P MMOs, but compared to Cryptic's other MMOs, it's absolutely terrible. Basic functions and character customization are locked away when there's absolutely no reason for them to be. If STO had the same system, the player base would be a lot less, and that means a lot fewer people paying.
Yes, ever changing and being balanced. Learn wtf you're talking about before spouting off childish insults,k?
And as to them giving out free re-specs when balance changes are made, I'll believe that when I see it.
I have to agree that the options are not there, but there is a minor issue that you have to look at.
STO and CO was originally Sub game. Sub game have options that allow players to do thing within the game cause well.. there is no cash option. When it goes F2P, these option stay which help new players a lot.
NWN was made purely F2P from the get go
Would these feature be nice to have in game? sure!
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
I know, you did read the post didn't you?
Grinding is ok, it's not something to be feared. But it is however something that shouldn't be held up against you in a threatening manner. Grinding in this game seems so pointless due to the time needed to break even (and yes it's by design I know) that it's more of a bully tactic and a threat than an alternative.
What you're referring to by "carrot on a stick" is GOALS. If your players have no goals, then they're less bothered. If your goals are at the end of a variable track with a ton of intrusive pay to get ahead offers and RNG reliance, and you can bet your bottom dollar, folks will look at it and most of the time laugh at you, and just because some folks then proceed to see this as a challenge, doesn't mean you made the most optimal road to a goal, it means that there's some players that will play anything and are easily pleased or can't see the actual design, now if that's how your buddies in game design do things, then I hate to break it to ya, but the guys building for that are hacks with no talent, or have hands up their rears with a publishers name on them.
Foundry, will keep a certain part of the community playing, it is a remnant of what this game COULD have been, and SHOULD have been that may very well be it's "selling point" for lack of a better term.
And again, comparing a game created in 2013 with one from 2004, is basically saying
"games development has not learned anything in those years"
Sorry, but I cannot consider that right. And if we consider the games as different due to the payment models, that then makes it apples and oranges.
Really what this boils down to is the grind alternative, is really not a very good alternative and instead creates a lot of bad friction between players that feel they want to play and support this game, but the fact that it feels to them they're trying to be bullied into it as ugly and intrusive and a perversion of what they feel a game should be doing.
I did read
Well like I said what are the "goals" in MMO?
- Levels
- Gear
- Power/skills (earn by levels)
- Story
In most games there are levels. you start at 1 and get to max. (except for TSW and EVE there are no levels just skills learning) Once you are max, what goals are there?
Power/skills - these are usually tied to levels. You get more powerful skills/spells, but at max, there isn't anymore to earn.
Gear - this is popular goals. Gear from 1 to max, epic level Tier 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc (WoW does this well)
Story- there are some good story but Devs can only create so much. Again look at the popular WoW. It took how many years to "flesh it out" I remember back in Vanilla there wasn't much until the "BIG carrot of AQ40 *shudders*"
Optional Art - some devs toss in ways to earn different art. different look on your items/skills. New clothing, new armor look (same stats)
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
Now that I can agree
Sadly, they make tons of money because of it.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
i back you 100% bro it is gonna kill this game, we shouldnt be forced into paying for basic things like respec and more bag space or more character slots its breaks me to see how fail zen store and end game is people should not be able to buy there entire lvl 60 gear from AH. and honestly if the people who made these decisions are not HAMSTER than they must not care much for the future of this game it is going to be dead within a month at this rate.
I personally don't agree 100% of the system. I think some of the AD prices should be lowered (thus easier to attain) like respec. Now I do notice that Bags ARE interchangable (i.e. does not Bind) so $10 "might" be justifyable BUT I think it is a bit high IMO.
OR give more dailies that can earn rough AD. Similar to STO, there are many many many ways to earn rough dilithium (duty officer, turn in items, missions, dailies, quests, ) so earning your limit (8k) was easy. but in NWN it is a bit more work to earn 24k. I am not asking making it TOO easy to earn 24k but at least give us more option.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
And all of those, to a degree are fine, if the gameplay itself is compelling and can be enjoyed enough, then no (reasonable) amount of grind is going to deter players, but all of those can be altered by a constant feeling that you're better off just paying them repeated large infusions of cash to avoid frustration, and that's when players start getting annoyed, they feel the game is great but it's held back by it's monetization instead of supplimented by it. This game manages to do that a lot, and they need to realize that in the end all they do is get players to consider sticking around and not paying a cent towards it despite being able to even on occasion, as just treating them, as they're seemingly treating us.
And again, while WoW should be looked to as a good MMO for all intents and purposes, despite it's direction being "questionable" at the moment, you can't really say, it's a great idea to clone the game, and recreate the faults all over again when you could have easily sorted them and gotten something better than the template.
But the real issue is not that this game has not-so-micro-transactions, but that the way they incorporate them in a "pay us or face the grind-torture-rack" manner.
Really? So Respecing is optional and its a convenience? Its a core game mechanic. You really think everyone will get their build right the first time?
6USD to respec. 6 USD.
Maybe these people are happier with Banner Ads. Subscribe to Netflix for $7.99 and get 500 zen FREE!
And I don't accept how folks toss Guild Wars 2 out there as a shining example of "doing it right" because they're a game that despite their issues could have set a much higher example, by not releasing yet MORE of the remnants of ZT online with those silly boxes... they're everywhere, seriously they are just everywhere and now they're even more annoying and are causing even those that used to fight me on their forum with such absolute zeal, to question the game...
"It will all be cosmetic!! no P2W esque items!!!"
Then we see the monetization and some genius has immediately decided they want to sell things with stats. and their actual cosmetic selection of purchases are tiny... Guild Wars 2 shocked me with it's absolute lack of cosmetic choices via real cash.
And before folks start saying cosmetics would cost them in terms of creation, they have a HUGE untapped potential for ideas...
THE PLAYERS.
Ask players to submit their ideas for armor types and simply make the reward be recognition via flavor text and of course a free set of the item/skin for themselves, nothing brings a community together like creativity and recognition. And all Cryptic need do is pick out the cream of the crop and translate it into the game as a skin.
Sorry for my bad english.
Edited to add.. for a free game somebody has to pay something, other wise how would they make their money...
Re-Speccing is not core gameplay. It is a work-around, legal cheat, etc.
It's pay 4 fail. You made the error. 80 hours of community service (AD) or a small fine (600 zen).
And the respec feats at lvl 60 is over 160K DIAS!!!
i only got like 60k dias!
And the only way to get diamonds is to play (read GRIND) daily dungeons/pvp/skirmish.
Or u may get some with professions (which is not much)
Or u can pay zen->convert to dias. ( not f2p)
The ingame gold is USELESS.
ow and PvP is HAMSTER unbalanced and AFK friendly!
all of Turbines games do. and at a much faster pace relatively speaking.
Most people would rather pay for these conviences much like those of us that would rather this be a sub model. The problem that happens is these items are priced so high that anyone with any reason will not and simply your enjoyement of the game falls off at that point. Most gamers bounce from game to game and at best anyone I know that I've gamed with in the last 14 years barely stays with a game more then a month 2 tops without moving on. There is no encentive to want to pay these high prices unless you don't value your hard earned money. If the prices were dropped by 75% you might get a much larger majority of the gameing populace to pay and enjoy this game. The barrier right now is set that only the people that are crazy enough to spend 100's of dollars a month will find that enjoyment. I have a RL Friend who's already spent right at $400 bucks on the game that right there is already double what I would pay for an entire year or a subscription model. In the last 14 years of gaming I have consistently had 2 subscriptions to any number of games from EQ back in 1999 to the most current games these days. Thats just over 5 grand that I've spent on online gameing in that time not including computer, internet etc..
To think that this games priceing plan is so out of line with what most people will pay is a shame as most of my friends that came up paying the subscription model have moved on because the value simply isn't there even if the montly fee was $30 bucks most would stick around. The problem with the current setup is things like 1 simple bag costing 10 bucks and yet thats not even account wide is a complete rip off. I delete huge amnts of green gear or simply refuse to pick them up as most of the people in the 200+ person guild I'm in dose the same. Anyways I've typed way more then I wanted to PWE doesn't have blinders on there just abuseing customers that don't have the economic sense to say this is over the top.
It would cost you around 225k AD for 1 time respec. This way you don't have to spend real money if you want to, of course it will take you more time.
Everything can be earned in-game without spending real money because you can always convert AD to ZEN and other way around.
If you are good at trading/dealing on Broker, you can also earn more AD and save sometime.
I have nothing against Zen market, it's a simple economy to provide you a free game and also bring profit to the company.
The only thing they need to take into account is the price of these virtual items, it should be at a reasonable price, not to exploit too much, otherwise it's like the topic title said "ruining the game"
I'm still playing and enjoying the game for free, the combat is really fun, but it is clearly obvious what this payment "model" and end game is all about. I would much rather the game be sub based instead of the disgusting mess it is now.
I'm a big PvPer but I don't have a whole lot of hope for this game in that department though, it is a D&D game which was pretty much made for PvE / Co-Op / Dungeon Running / Raiding, and that is completely fine, in fact it is awesome, the Foundry is fantastic.
So I honestly wasn't expecting much in the PvP department and I am not really expecting much balance happening there because this game is built off the D&D ruleset which was never really designed with PvP in mind and they should stick with that.
It will make for a excellent PvE based MMO, but IMHO it could have been far better as a sub game or at least with a better payment model then the appalling place the store / micro transactions are at now, the prices are ridiculous.
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Do you need the heavy inferno mount or the phoera companion from the nightmare lockbox? No absolutely not.Those are just vanity items to show off other players how uber stuffs you have but it has nothing to do the actual gameplay.You CAN play and enjoy the full game without them.
I can understand how badly people want those items but for my opinion those are just vanity and ego-boosting items,nothing more.
In such cases when people really get desperate they tend to claim that those items are P2W or necessary to the gameplay but it isn't true no matter how hard they try to prove otherwise.
The only item what i imagine is would be nice to see it cheaper is the respec token BUT as others said, it is common practice here at PWE (which i didn't know 'tlll someone above mentioned lol)to give people one of those when they do major changes in the game.So i won't worry about that one either.
So all in all i don't see anything in the shop that would pose PWE as a "greedy" company.
Maybe i'm wrong, in this case please tell me which of the items in the shop makes you think they are greedy or makes your gameplay unenjoyable?
The biggest thing is to make free (or cost gold) the things that are either core gameplay concepts, or help with immersion (since this is a D&D-based game). Respecs and scrolls of identification are core gameplay functions. Make them cost gold, or at the least make respecs cost astral diamonds straight up instead of zen. There's no reason whatsoever why dye bottles and appearance alterations should cost Zen/diamonds, and in fact there should just be a tailor who can dye your items for gold. I can understand putting fashion items in the Zen store (STO and CO do that too), but there should at least be more options than a scrubby peasant outfit. Give characters the ability to craft fashion items that fit with their class, maybe one every 5 levels of crafting, and keep everything else on the Zen store. Finally, allow companions to have their appearance customizable. It really wouldn't take that much to just copy over the character creation options and apply them to companions. All of those seem to be relatively simply changes and would go a long way to making players feel more like these are our characters, our companions, and our adventures, rather than playing The Adventures of Captain Generic: Featuring Generic Companion. Get more people invested and immersed in the game, and they'll be more likely to spend money on it. In Star Trek Online, it's my captain, my ship, and my crew. It's the same with Champions Online: I'm the hero I want to be, fighting the Nemesis(es) I want to fight.
Stupidest thing i have ever read.
Ok then give me 100% working powers and feats before charging ppl real money for broken ****.
Mostly because they long ago figured out theres quite a few white knights willing to spend 200 dollars on an unreleased videogame and then white knite it constantly to justify how fair and amazing PW is,