There is absolutely no reason to play a Guardian Fighter. He can only pull 5 mobs at once. He does no damage compared to the rest of the classes. He is basically, a waste of slot when you can pick a second Cleric.
There is absolutely no reason to play a Guardian Fighter. He can only pull 5 mobs at once. He does no damage compared to the rest of the classes. He is basically, a waste of slot when you can pick a second Cleric.
Couldn't Agree more. Make GF a useful tank please. How can this go overlooked by the development team.
- Remove the 5 mob aggro cap from the GF's taunt. It's just silly. Or give him more single target damage if his purpose is to tank the boss. Currently a Rogue does the job better...
Agree. In our current groups we have the rogue tanking the boss on a lot of encounters. So silly...they are not intended to be tanks...yet they are filling the tanks role. PLEASE, for the love of the game...stop the madness and tone down the HEAL THREAT of the cleric. It just stupid right now.
GF can tank fine with a party that has patience and not ADD. But you can tank better with the GWF everyone thinks is a completely wasted class. Maybe the GF need to stop building DPS GFs?
GF can tank fine with a party that has patience and not ADD. But you can tank better with the GWF everyone thinks is a completely wasted class. Maybe the GF need to stop building DPS GFs?
Non dps GF is a total waste of a party slot in epic dungeons.
Again, "you", saying GF's are sub-par is just like, your opinion man I "have" done every T2 with one cleric, with a great GF and my job was very easy. Because when played right, accompanied with a cleric that also knows how to play, 2 clerics are "not" necessary, nor more efficient.
Go to youtube, type in Talgoth the Vile, and Valindras Pet, watch the videos. Then tell me you still need 2 clerics, and GF's are subpar. They make that **** look easy.
Cheers
One GF and one Cleric or two Clerics...it matters not. I play a GF and a fine one. My guild and I can tackle most content with no problem...T2, etc. This is not the point however. Despite the fact that we CAN complete content, does not justify or remedy the existing issues with heal threat. You would have to be completely blind not to see it. Fret not though Monkey, this thread is not about nerfing clerics if that is what you are worried about. We simply want the THREAT that healing generates to be addressed.
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dezmerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
GF and aggro need a lot of work to make GF an actual tank, this has nothing to do with Astral Shield. If AS didn't exist I think a lot of high-end dungeons would be completely undoable.
As far as clerics stacking AS I have no idea since 2 clerics stacking AS sounds like an excruciatingly slow team and would be better served with 2 CW actually focused on mass CC instead of single-target DPS wannabe strikers like so many of them are.
As a GF since BW2 - the tanking is knackered at endgame, regardless of how good your build is, a t2 dungeon is not for GF's, honestly, our aggro is so bad that it's just not worth it, i am regretting sticking with the GF, prolly role a new toon.
My Web: http://www.symonator.net
Toons:
New: CW Level 60
GF = Level 60
DC = Level 60
TR = Level 60
How is healaggro a problem ? you stand there next to your other 2 clerics in the zone dodge nothing because you can't die anyway and let the 2 Rogues clear the rest. Nothing else is needed to clear the current content, so why even bother ?
First of all: I'm in love with this game, so this post is intended to be constructive. I think I've made my point clear in other posts. I know every game has flaws, and making them clear while adding suggestions on how to solve them helps the game.
There is a huge problem that threatens Neverwinter, and when I mean huge, I mean gamebreaking.
The Cleric.
There is absolutely no reason to play a Guardian Fighter. He can only pull 5 mobs at once. He does no damage compared to the rest of the classes. He is basically, a waste of slot when you can pick a second Cleric.
For people that don't know, a double Cleric comp can do the tanking job much better. It is because of a power the Cleric has: Astral Shield. It mitigates damage. Two Clerics can cast two Astral Shields that STACK. Also, Clerics can draw aggro of ALL THE MOBS due to their broken aggro ratings. Cleric tanks. You heard it. Clerics who tank better damage than a GF, who deal more damage, can heal, and... basically turn a whole class into complete uselesness in the endgame.
I don't think it's fair. It's an exploit, quit with the "meta speech". This isn't League of Legends, nor 3.5 where you can multiclass. GFs SHOULD be better tanks than a Cleric.
I have three suggestions to solve this problem:
- Nerf heal aggro from the Cleric. Really, it's dumb how it is at the moment.
- Hotfix the Astral Shield stacking. They shouldn't stack. Period.
- Remove the 5 mob aggro cap from the GF's taunt. It's just silly. Ot give him more single target damage if his purpose is to tank the boss. Currently a Rogue does the job better...
I don't play a GF, by the way. I'm concerned with their situation, however. I want Neverwinter to be a better game, hence the purpose of the post. This is a core issue that should be adressed asap.
You are probably one of these lame GFs without a slightest clue on how to do their job right.
Well let me tell you this: I much prefer competent(keyword) GF to a 2nd cleric in group. If you start actually doing serious heroics you will know why.
Oh and by the way, I am cleric. Who had the pleasure of running few dungeons with really good GFs as well as other classes who knew their roles and how to do it.
edit: Oh so you don't even play GF? Well thats even more awesome, just crawl back under the bridge you left and stop grouping with utter noobs.
However you've moved 1 concern that is actually valid. Cleric aggro. Everyone knows its broken and clerics aggro much more then they should, there are workaround for this, but this bug should be fixed asap.
GF and aggro need a lot of work to make GF an actual tank, this has nothing to do with Astral Shield. If AS didn't exist I think a lot of high-end dungeons would be completely undoable.
As far as clerics stacking AS I have no idea since 2 clerics stacking AS sounds like an excruciatingly slow team and would be better served with 2 CW actually focused on mass CC instead of single-target DPS wannabe strikers like so many of them are.
From what I have been hearing AS stacking is the fastest set-up around. If Astral Shield works the way I believe it does then the issue will be that it gives a direct Damage Resistance % which would mean that stacking it actually increases defense exponentially. Say you have a 20% damage resistance and you get an additional +20% from Astral Shield, your damage resistance goes up to 40% damage resistance. This means you actually cut out a quarter of the damage you were taking, now if you increase this with another shield you get another 20% and so you get a 60% which then cuts out a 1/3rd of the damage you were taking while only in a single shield...
I don't know the exact percentages of this, the numbers above maybe wrong and this may not be the way astral shield works. Also there is another thing that maybe kicking in called foresight...
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dezmerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
How is healaggro a problem ? you stand there next to your other 2 clerics in the zone dodge nothing because you can't die anyway and let the 2 Rogues clear the rest. Nothing else is needed to clear the current content, so why even bother ?
I don't know what you're doing but I'm going to assume you are using Cloak Tower or something as a benchmark.
Astral Shield is not god mode it's absolutely vital to keep things from 2-shotting you later on. I literally do not think there would be an endgame without it.
I don't know what you're doing but I'm going to assume you are using Cloak Tower or something as a benchmark.
Astral Shield is not god mode it's absolutely vital to keep things from 2-shotting you later on. I literally do not think there would be an endgame without it.
My favorite part about Astral shield is that a GF can't even try to aoe tank without astral shield but if they do aoe tank in astral shield the DC gets all the agro.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
It's a very easy fix. Make Astral shield unstackable, meaning you only get one stack effect regardless of how many shields are there.
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ciarenbMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
Astral is a savior for the team, killer for the Cleric, before level 60 I had already earned the "take most damage in 10 dungeons" etc every dungeon since level 1 I as a cleric have taken most or 2nd most damage, taking off sooth actually helped me, im now 2nd or 3rd in most dungeons, I can't do T2 epic dungeon though, If I try, 1 AS and aggro from 10+ elite adds, and im dead in a single shot, Cleric is for lack of a better term broken, but what class isn't at the moment, I've had a GF on my team, dealt most dmg, took most dmg, most kills, beast of a player.
as someone on these forums said, the game is so imbalanced its balanced...for pvp atleast.
There's nothing wrong with Clerics or their agro. There's something wrong with GFs whether it be a mixture of them being inept and skill short comings. For the amount of agro a Cleric pulls, and how dumb people tend to be, Astral Shield is fine. When I play with clueless PUGS I still might die because people still don't understand that ADDS > Boss.
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jihancritiasMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Clerics are not your problem. Most of us don't want to be doing your job in addition to our own. We don't want all that aggro, and we didn't roll clerics to tank. However, Cryptic has not given GF/ GWF's the tools you need to do your job. When you can hold aggro, we won't have to.
Add to that the fact that clerics do a terrible job healing themselves. That -40% debuff means that each cleric's job is essentially healing the other cleric.
Righteousness Debuff + Loopy High Heal Threat + Tank Classes Without proper Threat Tools + 4538393493 adds in every single boss fight = Two Cleric System.
astral shield stacking is a little exaggerated compared to other methods right now, but I would like interesting combos like that to remain viable in the future. tank and spank is a thing of the past, double cleric should be an option and other exotic setups should be introduced as more classes are released.
Loving my cleric, having great fun being able to both dps and heal and not be a glorified heal pot for idiots that don't understand why standing in the goop is bad. I even enjoy kiting around the adds and dodging about and throwing down AS and stuff.
Haven't tried the epics yet since as soon as I got to level 60 I started a new cleric so the GF I was playing with would have a partner to play with while he made a TR. This was after him getting discouraged by all the reports of GF getting kicked from parties cos tanks can't really tank (even though everyone tells him he is a great tank) and seeing how clerics take all the add agro and most parties don't deal with adds and get blinkered on the boss.
That mostly means I haven't seen the 2 clerics with stacking AS much, just in 1 party. But way it looks is that it just needs a lil tweaking. In other games if you have 2 aoe healers casting aoe heals in the same area then you benefit from both of them, but I don't think I have seen an aoe shield that stacks. So maybe they need to stop the shields from stacking but not the heals.
Give guardians the ability to transfer threat from a selected player to themselves. Let them place a mark or buff on a single player that lasts the entire dungeon, and threat generated from that character transfers to the guardian.
Now everything goes for the guardian instead of the cleric.
Guardians become required in groups, guardians have an easy time tanking, and clerics threat problems are solved.
Multiple problems solved with one ability.
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mewbreyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 517Bounty Hunter
Give guardians the ability to transfer threat from a selected player to themselves. Let them place a mark or buff on a single player that lasts the entire dungeon, and threat generated from that character transfers to the guardian.
Now everything goes for the guardian instead of the cleric.
Guardians become required in groups, guardians have an easy time tanking, and clerics threat problems are solved.
Multiple problems solved with one ability.
That should be your tab skill as a guardian tbh, the ability to "mark" a friendly that gives you 20% of their threat. Then add to cleave and other at-will skills the current marks as passive on all at-wills.
But it is not just astral shield that is causing issues atm stacking foresight on top of astral shield and then a hallowed group up time of 100%. It is just rather crazy for raw mitigation.
I don't think 20% is enough. You would still be tanking everything as a cleric if you had 80% of the threat.
It needs to be more like 60% that way the enemies target the guardian over the cleric.
Anyhow the reason I like this idea is it solves the issues with cleric threat and guardians ability to tank, but it doesn't change how a group functions without a guardian in a group. Some players like being able to tank with their cleric without a guardian in the group and this would allow them to continue to do so, but when a guardian joins the group he should be the main tank and would be by marking the cleric.
It's a multiplayer game and guardians rely on us to stay alive, so there is no reason we shouldn't need to rely on them to manage our threat.
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mewbreyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 517Bounty Hunter
I don't think 20% is enough. You would still be tanking everything as a cleric if you had 80% of the threat.
It needs to be more like 60% that way the enemies target the guardian over the cleric.
Anyhow the reason I like this idea is it solves the issues with cleric threat and guardians ability to tank, but it doesn't change how a group functions without a guardian in a group. Some players like being able to tank with their cleric without a guardian in the group and this would allow them to continue to do so, but when a guardian joins the group he should be the main tank and would be by marking the cleric.
It's a multiplayer game and guardians rely on us to stay alive, so there is no reason we shouldn't need to rely on them to manage our threat.
Agree whole hearty, if clerics still want to tank right now they deserve to have the option as the issue has been left in game for so long now I imagine in the future they will add a Templar cleric that will be intended to at least be an off-tank but for now until that's the case I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to if they want too...
But again if you have a guardian in the group they should be able to supersede the cleric in choice of tanking being a defender, and this option would allow that. They may want to change the clerics description to save confusion however if they wish it to continue being a tank/off-tank to include defender (Leader/Controller/Defender) rather than the current Leader/Controller.
What ever the out come, I really look forward to them addressing these issues I love the game but they need to get a move on with some actual in game fixes.
I just want to say that as i have been playing my DC at 60 and refining my play style i find myself using astral shield less and less. When i was leveling up and reading guides all the guides say the number one thing to do is have perma blue AS, thatsall i was reading left and right, but now that im playing i find you really dont need AS that much at all if your not bad at playing DC it can easily be done with FF/HW, SB, and HG. thats mostly all i use and i basically only use AS in emergencies.
So yes kids despite what the guides say you DONT need 100% blue AS uptime to be an effective healer. Oh and BTW i hardly EVER have agro healing this way now! in fact i devised this play style as a way to try and have less agro and its working.
Im also starting to realize that sooth also works as well, except not in the way one would think it works. basically it doesnt do jack for you not getting agro in the first place but it DOES help your group PEEL mobs off of you ALOT easier. I now run sooth and forsight 100% of the time in dungeons, makes life much easier not only for myself but for any GF in the group.
Comments
Couldn't Agree more. Make GF a useful tank please. How can this go overlooked by the development team.
This is so obvious...why has it gone this long unchecked by the development team? Why??
Agree. In our current groups we have the rogue tanking the boss on a lot of encounters. So silly...they are not intended to be tanks...yet they are filling the tanks role. PLEASE, for the love of the game...stop the madness and tone down the HEAL THREAT of the cleric. It just stupid right now.
Nuff said.
"tired old trinity"... You do realize you're talking about D&D, right? /facepalm.
Cryptic cryptic cryptic.........
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Non dps GF is a total waste of a party slot in epic dungeons.
One GF and one Cleric or two Clerics...it matters not. I play a GF and a fine one. My guild and I can tackle most content with no problem...T2, etc. This is not the point however. Despite the fact that we CAN complete content, does not justify or remedy the existing issues with heal threat. You would have to be completely blind not to see it. Fret not though Monkey, this thread is not about nerfing clerics if that is what you are worried about.
As far as clerics stacking AS I have no idea since 2 clerics stacking AS sounds like an excruciatingly slow team and would be better served with 2 CW actually focused on mass CC instead of single-target DPS wannabe strikers like so many of them are.
Toons:
New: CW Level 60
GF = Level 60
DC = Level 60
TR = Level 60
You are probably one of these lame GFs without a slightest clue on how to do their job right.
Well let me tell you this: I much prefer competent(keyword) GF to a 2nd cleric in group. If you start actually doing serious heroics you will know why.
Oh and by the way, I am cleric. Who had the pleasure of running few dungeons with really good GFs as well as other classes who knew their roles and how to do it.
edit: Oh so you don't even play GF? Well thats even more awesome, just crawl back under the bridge you left and stop grouping with utter noobs.
However you've moved 1 concern that is actually valid. Cleric aggro. Everyone knows its broken and clerics aggro much more then they should, there are workaround for this, but this bug should be fixed asap.
From what I have been hearing AS stacking is the fastest set-up around. If Astral Shield works the way I believe it does then the issue will be that it gives a direct Damage Resistance % which would mean that stacking it actually increases defense exponentially. Say you have a 20% damage resistance and you get an additional +20% from Astral Shield, your damage resistance goes up to 40% damage resistance. This means you actually cut out a quarter of the damage you were taking, now if you increase this with another shield you get another 20% and so you get a 60% which then cuts out a 1/3rd of the damage you were taking while only in a single shield...
I don't know the exact percentages of this, the numbers above maybe wrong and this may not be the way astral shield works. Also there is another thing that maybe kicking in called foresight...
I don't know what you're doing but I'm going to assume you are using Cloak Tower or something as a benchmark.
Astral Shield is not god mode it's absolutely vital to keep things from 2-shotting you later on. I literally do not think there would be an endgame without it.
My favorite part about Astral shield is that a GF can't even try to aoe tank without astral shield but if they do aoe tank in astral shield the DC gets all the agro.
as someone on these forums said, the game is so imbalanced its balanced...for pvp atleast.
Add to that the fact that clerics do a terrible job healing themselves. That -40% debuff means that each cleric's job is essentially healing the other cleric.
Righteousness Debuff + Loopy High Heal Threat + Tank Classes Without proper Threat Tools + 4538393493 adds in every single boss fight = Two Cleric System.
Haven't tried the epics yet since as soon as I got to level 60 I started a new cleric so the GF I was playing with would have a partner to play with while he made a TR. This was after him getting discouraged by all the reports of GF getting kicked from parties cos tanks can't really tank (even though everyone tells him he is a great tank) and seeing how clerics take all the add agro and most parties don't deal with adds and get blinkered on the boss.
That mostly means I haven't seen the 2 clerics with stacking AS much, just in 1 party. But way it looks is that it just needs a lil tweaking. In other games if you have 2 aoe healers casting aoe heals in the same area then you benefit from both of them, but I don't think I have seen an aoe shield that stacks. So maybe they need to stop the shields from stacking but not the heals.
Now everything goes for the guardian instead of the cleric.
Guardians become required in groups, guardians have an easy time tanking, and clerics threat problems are solved.
Multiple problems solved with one ability.
That should be your tab skill as a guardian tbh, the ability to "mark" a friendly that gives you 20% of their threat. Then add to cleave and other at-will skills the current marks as passive on all at-wills.
But it is not just astral shield that is causing issues atm stacking foresight on top of astral shield and then a hallowed group up time of 100%. It is just rather crazy for raw mitigation.
It needs to be more like 60% that way the enemies target the guardian over the cleric.
Anyhow the reason I like this idea is it solves the issues with cleric threat and guardians ability to tank, but it doesn't change how a group functions without a guardian in a group. Some players like being able to tank with their cleric without a guardian in the group and this would allow them to continue to do so, but when a guardian joins the group he should be the main tank and would be by marking the cleric.
It's a multiplayer game and guardians rely on us to stay alive, so there is no reason we shouldn't need to rely on them to manage our threat.
Agree whole hearty, if clerics still want to tank right now they deserve to have the option as the issue has been left in game for so long now I imagine in the future they will add a Templar cleric that will be intended to at least be an off-tank but for now until that's the case I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to if they want too...
But again if you have a guardian in the group they should be able to supersede the cleric in choice of tanking being a defender, and this option would allow that. They may want to change the clerics description to save confusion however if they wish it to continue being a tank/off-tank to include defender (Leader/Controller/Defender) rather than the current Leader/Controller.
What ever the out come, I really look forward to them addressing these issues I love the game but they need to get a move on with some actual in game fixes.
So yes kids despite what the guides say you DONT need 100% blue AS uptime to be an effective healer. Oh and BTW i hardly EVER have agro healing this way now! in fact i devised this play style as a way to try and have less agro and its working.