Loving my cleric, having great fun being able to both dps and heal and not be a glorified heal pot for idiots that don't understand why standing in the goop is bad. I even enjoy kiting around the adds and dodging about and throwing down AS and stuff.
Haven't tried the epics yet since as soon as I got to level 60 I started a new cleric so the GF I was playing with would have a partner to play with while he made a TR. This was after him getting discouraged by all the reports of GF getting kicked from parties cos tanks can't really tank (even though everyone tells him he is a great tank) and seeing how clerics take all the add agro and most parties don't deal with adds and get blinkered on the boss.
That mostly means I haven't seen the 2 clerics with stacking AS much, just in 1 party. But way it looks is that it just needs a lil tweaking. In other games if you have 2 aoe healers casting aoe heals in the same area then you benefit from both of them, but I don't think I have seen an aoe shield that stacks. So maybe they need to stop the shields from stacking but not the heals.
Give guardians the ability to transfer threat from a selected player to themselves. Let them place a mark or buff on a single player that lasts the entire dungeon, and threat generated from that character transfers to the guardian.
Now everything goes for the guardian instead of the cleric.
Guardians become required in groups, guardians have an easy time tanking, and clerics threat problems are solved.
Multiple problems solved with one ability.
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mewbreyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 517Bounty Hunter
Give guardians the ability to transfer threat from a selected player to themselves. Let them place a mark or buff on a single player that lasts the entire dungeon, and threat generated from that character transfers to the guardian.
Now everything goes for the guardian instead of the cleric.
Guardians become required in groups, guardians have an easy time tanking, and clerics threat problems are solved.
Multiple problems solved with one ability.
That should be your tab skill as a guardian tbh, the ability to "mark" a friendly that gives you 20% of their threat. Then add to cleave and other at-will skills the current marks as passive on all at-wills.
But it is not just astral shield that is causing issues atm stacking foresight on top of astral shield and then a hallowed group up time of 100%. It is just rather crazy for raw mitigation.
I don't think 20% is enough. You would still be tanking everything as a cleric if you had 80% of the threat.
It needs to be more like 60% that way the enemies target the guardian over the cleric.
Anyhow the reason I like this idea is it solves the issues with cleric threat and guardians ability to tank, but it doesn't change how a group functions without a guardian in a group. Some players like being able to tank with their cleric without a guardian in the group and this would allow them to continue to do so, but when a guardian joins the group he should be the main tank and would be by marking the cleric.
It's a multiplayer game and guardians rely on us to stay alive, so there is no reason we shouldn't need to rely on them to manage our threat.
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mewbreyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 517Bounty Hunter
I don't think 20% is enough. You would still be tanking everything as a cleric if you had 80% of the threat.
It needs to be more like 60% that way the enemies target the guardian over the cleric.
Anyhow the reason I like this idea is it solves the issues with cleric threat and guardians ability to tank, but it doesn't change how a group functions without a guardian in a group. Some players like being able to tank with their cleric without a guardian in the group and this would allow them to continue to do so, but when a guardian joins the group he should be the main tank and would be by marking the cleric.
It's a multiplayer game and guardians rely on us to stay alive, so there is no reason we shouldn't need to rely on them to manage our threat.
Agree whole hearty, if clerics still want to tank right now they deserve to have the option as the issue has been left in game for so long now I imagine in the future they will add a Templar cleric that will be intended to at least be an off-tank but for now until that's the case I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to if they want too...
But again if you have a guardian in the group they should be able to supersede the cleric in choice of tanking being a defender, and this option would allow that. They may want to change the clerics description to save confusion however if they wish it to continue being a tank/off-tank to include defender (Leader/Controller/Defender) rather than the current Leader/Controller.
What ever the out come, I really look forward to them addressing these issues I love the game but they need to get a move on with some actual in game fixes.
I just want to say that as i have been playing my DC at 60 and refining my play style i find myself using astral shield less and less. When i was leveling up and reading guides all the guides say the number one thing to do is have perma blue AS, thatsall i was reading left and right, but now that im playing i find you really dont need AS that much at all if your not bad at playing DC it can easily be done with FF/HW, SB, and HG. thats mostly all i use and i basically only use AS in emergencies.
So yes kids despite what the guides say you DONT need 100% blue AS uptime to be an effective healer. Oh and BTW i hardly EVER have agro healing this way now! in fact i devised this play style as a way to try and have less agro and its working.
Im also starting to realize that sooth also works as well, except not in the way one would think it works. basically it doesnt do jack for you not getting agro in the first place but it DOES help your group PEEL mobs off of you ALOT easier. I now run sooth and forsight 100% of the time in dungeons, makes life much easier not only for myself but for any GF in the group.
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flashboltsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited May 2013
I thought I'd take a crack at translating the OP's post:
First of all: I'm pissed that dungeon running groups pick you guys instead of the character I leveled and instead of doing my best to make my toon the best I can, I'd rather come here to your forum and bad mouth your class in the hopes that the developers will nerf clerics into the ground and make people pick me for their dodgeball....I mean T2 dungeon running team. I'd like to start out my "constructive" post by talking about how your class breaks the game and finish again by talking about how your guys are breaking the game.
I think I translated that correctly...
Our "broken" class spends most of every bossfight running in circles from 40 mobs and you want them to nerf our main healing ability....go back to your bridge troll.
Why does everybody keeps nagging about cleric circle stack? I want you to try the facts the you guys actualy speak about.
GO ahead , and do CN with no astral shield. Just do it. Then come back to forum and say what you have to say about circle and stacking circles. What ppl dont understand is that CLERIC is a GROUP MEMBER that makes YOUR dps class be able to output that DMG , its not a OMG wtf unbalanaced char that just roll over others. I hope one day , they remove the circle from the game and see you all in tears , coming back to forum asking to remove mobs from dungeons cause you can't kill them now.
You should not think about nerfing everything that works decent , meanwhile try to think on how to improve the things that are not goning as intended.
As for the "cleric tank" , tanking better then a GF its just non-sense. Put a GF into the astra shield and check if you cand handle more mobs then the GF. And you say , he only taunt 5mobs , yea , 5mobs makes a great diffrence sometimes. He has other skills , if played good , can help a lot his party. Yes indeed they are not very usefull at this moment as they can be replaced in most of the dungeons but , nerfing others for the sake of GF is not the way to go.
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lhvdlMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
Underestimating GF's. Threat issue should be fixed i agree but actually there are still many ways to hold aggro. Tbh sometimes only with dpsing i can hold the aggro of the mobs. Hıgh dps with right class features and feats are crucial though. And for dps part if there are not alot throwing mobs out of cliffs, gfs can easly be first or second in the dps. It is just much more diffucult to optimize ur gameplay comparing to TS. And % 50 increase in action point recharge rate is freakin awesome(GF has that buff). It considerably increase the dps and cc control abilities of the party. And tanking becomes less relevant then. Because overall ccing capacity of the party increase dramaticaly.
I dont know but i guess the biggest problem is at the moment that we players still coulndt find out what to do:) and how to make the best set-up for our classes.
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renegaderadeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
Why does everybody keeps nagging about cleric circle stack? I want you to try the facts the you guys actualy speak about.
GO ahead , and do CN with no astral shield. Just do it. Then come back to forum and say what you have to say about circle and stacking circles. What ppl dont understand is that CLERIC is a GROUP MEMBER that makes YOUR dps class be able to output that DMG , its not a OMG wtf unbalanaced char that just roll over others. I hope one day , they remove the circle from the game and see you all in tears , coming back to forum asking to remove mobs from dungeons cause you can't kill them now.
You should not think about nerfing everything that works decent , meanwhile try to think on how to improve the things that are not goning as intended.
As for the "cleric tank" , tanking better then a GF its just non-sense. Put a GF into the astra shield and check if you cand handle more mobs then the GF. And you say , he only taunt 5mobs , yea , 5mobs makes a great diffrence sometimes. He has other skills , if played good , can help a lot his party. Yes indeed they are not very usefull at this moment as they can be replaced in most of the dungeons but , nerfing others for the sake of GF is not the way to go.
If you honestly think you HAVE to run with 2 clerics to clear CN then you are running with **** clerics. I can solo Cleric CN full clear easily.
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steppenkatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I thought I'd take a crack at translating the OP's post:
I think I translated that correctly...
Our "broken" class spends most of every bossfight running in circles from 40 mobs and you want them to nerf our main healing ability....go back to your bridge troll.
Or you could build with Regen gear and tank them yourself. It's what people doing now. Heck, it's how I'm building my DC.
No need for GFs when you can bring a second AS and at the same time, pull mobs better and offer general utility. It doesn't matter if the GF has a blockrate, who needs it when you can outheal any damage taken?
If you guys think the current DC is okay and my post it's just a whine, you either don't have friends who play GF or they've had extreme luck with their groups. In reality, the GFs of my guild get kicked all the time from PUGs. We'll do runs when we manage to level up a group, but the current situation isn't "okay".
I'm glad that this post managed to bring up a debate, though, and Devs confirmed they're looking at it.
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Underestimating GF's. Threat issue should be fixed i agree but actually there are still many ways to hold aggro. Tbh sometimes only with dpsing i can hold the aggro of the mobs. Hıgh dps with right class features and feats are crucial though. And for dps part if there are not alot throwing mobs out of cliffs, gfs can easly be first or second in the dps. It is just much more diffucult to optimize ur gameplay comparing to TS. And % 50 increase in action point recharge rate is freakin awesome(GF has that buff). It considerably increase the dps and cc control abilities of the party. And tanking becomes less relevant then. Because overall ccing capacity of the party increase dramaticaly.
I dont know but i guess the biggest problem is at the moment that we players still coulndt find out what to do:) and how to make the best set-up for our classes.
Being able to use a GF doesn't mean it's optimal. That's the problem. Class stacking (2 DCs, 2 CW, 2 TR) seems a viable option now and tend to leave the GF and sometimes the GWF out of the equation. This means that these three classes are more atractive, they have some kind of absolute advantage that the other two lack. So to make them competitive, you both need to tone down the main unorthodox build (Cleric Tanks) and buff a bit the other two, so they can become viable alternatives.
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
So yes kids despite what the guides say you DONT need 100% blue AS uptime to be an effective healer.
Agreed. Half the time it's knowing and using the right set of encounters to slot that makes the biggest difference in play... for you as a player and your build. That applies to all classes.
I've learned to master targeting party member with Healing Word now that they fixed the pet issue in closed beta (PVP is also a good practice ground for targeting). I'm not a fan of Forgemaster's Flame. But HW, SB, Bastion, HG, can do just fine. In some cases, there's not AS at all cause you have to kite the adds. I don't know about the agro regarding AS. I have less agro in some cases by playing it differently even with AS. Party members not zerging is key to that half the time. I don't know if we have the agro issue, or rather I think the Guardian Fighter has the issue. I've known good GFs who knows how to play their class suddenly get out-tanked by a pet tank you get from a quest... Anyhow, just my 2 cents.
I'l agree 100% here. Even when you factor in righteousness the main issue here is threat generation period, not an op ability per se. If GF could hold threat more reliably on multiple things this wouldnt be an issue as it would encourage you to take a more diverse group. As-is though, you'll be hard-pressed to find a GF that can pull the job of tank off well. It is sad that a cleric generates threat better than a tank, and a cleric doesn't even have to try at all to get it which is the crazy part. I understand if I heal 50% of everyone's health at once things might not like that but when passive effects peel everything off of the tank..yeah something needs adjusting. This isn't a cleric issue. This is a threat gen issue. I don't even care about righteousness at the end of the day as it would be pretty balanced in general if I weren't tanking everything already, while trying to do 100% of the healing, while trying to max my damage for d/ap gen all the while potting on cd and kiting. Don't get me wrong; I love the challenge. However, I do not love trying to do all three tasks of the holy trinity just because i hit HW a few times.
Comments
Haven't tried the epics yet since as soon as I got to level 60 I started a new cleric so the GF I was playing with would have a partner to play with while he made a TR. This was after him getting discouraged by all the reports of GF getting kicked from parties cos tanks can't really tank (even though everyone tells him he is a great tank) and seeing how clerics take all the add agro and most parties don't deal with adds and get blinkered on the boss.
That mostly means I haven't seen the 2 clerics with stacking AS much, just in 1 party. But way it looks is that it just needs a lil tweaking. In other games if you have 2 aoe healers casting aoe heals in the same area then you benefit from both of them, but I don't think I have seen an aoe shield that stacks. So maybe they need to stop the shields from stacking but not the heals.
Now everything goes for the guardian instead of the cleric.
Guardians become required in groups, guardians have an easy time tanking, and clerics threat problems are solved.
Multiple problems solved with one ability.
That should be your tab skill as a guardian tbh, the ability to "mark" a friendly that gives you 20% of their threat. Then add to cleave and other at-will skills the current marks as passive on all at-wills.
But it is not just astral shield that is causing issues atm stacking foresight on top of astral shield and then a hallowed group up time of 100%. It is just rather crazy for raw mitigation.
It needs to be more like 60% that way the enemies target the guardian over the cleric.
Anyhow the reason I like this idea is it solves the issues with cleric threat and guardians ability to tank, but it doesn't change how a group functions without a guardian in a group. Some players like being able to tank with their cleric without a guardian in the group and this would allow them to continue to do so, but when a guardian joins the group he should be the main tank and would be by marking the cleric.
It's a multiplayer game and guardians rely on us to stay alive, so there is no reason we shouldn't need to rely on them to manage our threat.
Agree whole hearty, if clerics still want to tank right now they deserve to have the option as the issue has been left in game for so long now I imagine in the future they will add a Templar cleric that will be intended to at least be an off-tank but for now until that's the case I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to if they want too...
But again if you have a guardian in the group they should be able to supersede the cleric in choice of tanking being a defender, and this option would allow that. They may want to change the clerics description to save confusion however if they wish it to continue being a tank/off-tank to include defender (Leader/Controller/Defender) rather than the current Leader/Controller.
What ever the out come, I really look forward to them addressing these issues I love the game but they need to get a move on with some actual in game fixes.
So yes kids despite what the guides say you DONT need 100% blue AS uptime to be an effective healer. Oh and BTW i hardly EVER have agro healing this way now! in fact i devised this play style as a way to try and have less agro and its working.
I think I translated that correctly...
Our "broken" class spends most of every bossfight running in circles from 40 mobs and you want them to nerf our main healing ability....go back to your bridge troll.
GO ahead , and do CN with no astral shield. Just do it. Then come back to forum and say what you have to say about circle and stacking circles. What ppl dont understand is that CLERIC is a GROUP MEMBER that makes YOUR dps class be able to output that DMG , its not a OMG wtf unbalanaced char that just roll over others. I hope one day , they remove the circle from the game and see you all in tears , coming back to forum asking to remove mobs from dungeons cause you can't kill them now.
You should not think about nerfing everything that works decent , meanwhile try to think on how to improve the things that are not goning as intended.
As for the "cleric tank" , tanking better then a GF its just non-sense. Put a GF into the astra shield and check if you cand handle more mobs then the GF. And you say , he only taunt 5mobs , yea , 5mobs makes a great diffrence sometimes. He has other skills , if played good , can help a lot his party. Yes indeed they are not very usefull at this moment as they can be replaced in most of the dungeons but , nerfing others for the sake of GF is not the way to go.
I dont know but i guess the biggest problem is at the moment that we players still coulndt find out what to do:) and how to make the best set-up for our classes.
If you honestly think you HAVE to run with 2 clerics to clear CN then you are running with **** clerics. I can solo Cleric CN full clear easily.
Or you could build with Regen gear and tank them yourself. It's what people doing now. Heck, it's how I'm building my DC.
No need for GFs when you can bring a second AS and at the same time, pull mobs better and offer general utility. It doesn't matter if the GF has a blockrate, who needs it when you can outheal any damage taken?
If you guys think the current DC is okay and my post it's just a whine, you either don't have friends who play GF or they've had extreme luck with their groups. In reality, the GFs of my guild get kicked all the time from PUGs. We'll do runs when we manage to level up a group, but the current situation isn't "okay".
I'm glad that this post managed to bring up a debate, though, and Devs confirmed they're looking at it.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
Being able to use a GF doesn't mean it's optimal. That's the problem. Class stacking (2 DCs, 2 CW, 2 TR) seems a viable option now and tend to leave the GF and sometimes the GWF out of the equation. This means that these three classes are more atractive, they have some kind of absolute advantage that the other two lack. So to make them competitive, you both need to tone down the main unorthodox build (Cleric Tanks) and buff a bit the other two, so they can become viable alternatives.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
Agreed. Half the time it's knowing and using the right set of encounters to slot that makes the biggest difference in play... for you as a player and your build. That applies to all classes.
I've learned to master targeting party member with Healing Word now that they fixed the pet issue in closed beta (PVP is also a good practice ground for targeting). I'm not a fan of Forgemaster's Flame. But HW, SB, Bastion, HG, can do just fine. In some cases, there's not AS at all cause you have to kite the adds. I don't know about the agro regarding AS. I have less agro in some cases by playing it differently even with AS. Party members not zerging is key to that half the time. I don't know if we have the agro issue, or rather I think the Guardian Fighter has the issue. I've known good GFs who knows how to play their class suddenly get out-tanked by a pet tank you get from a quest... Anyhow, just my 2 cents.