Stop the Astral Shield madness

steppenkat

First of all: I'm in love with this game, so this post is intended to be constructive. I think I've made my point clear in other posts. I know every game has flaws, and making them clear while adding suggestions on how to solve them helps the game.

There is a huge problem that threatens Neverwinter, and when I mean huge, I mean gamebreaking.

The Cleric.

There is absolutely no reason to play a Guardian Fighter. He can only pull 5 mobs at once. He does no damage compared to the rest of the classes. He is basically, a waste of slot when you can pick a second Cleric.

For people that don't know, a double Cleric comp can do the tanking job much better. It is because of a power the Cleric has: Astral Shield. It mitigates damage. Two Clerics can cast two Astral Shields that STACK. Also, Clerics can draw aggro of ALL THE MOBS due to their broken aggro ratings. Cleric tanks. You heard it. Clerics who tank better damage than a GF, who deal more damage, can heal, and... basically turn a whole class into complete uselesness in the endgame.

I don't think it's fair. It's an exploit, quit with the "meta speech". This isn't League of Legends, nor 3.5 where you can multiclass. GFs SHOULD be better tanks than a Cleric.

I have three suggestions to solve this problem:

- Nerf heal aggro from the Cleric. Really, it's dumb how it is at the moment.

- Hotfix the Astral Shield stacking. They shouldn't stack. Period.

- Remove the 5 mob aggro cap from the GF's taunt. It's just silly. Ot give him more single target damage if his purpose is to tank the boss. Currently a Rogue does the job better...

I don't play a GF, by the way. I'm concerned with their situation, however. I want Neverwinter to be a better game, hence the purpose of the post. This is a core issue that should be adressed asap.

jedizalm

- Nerf heal aggro from the Cleric. Really, it's dumb how it is at the moment.

I agree. Cleric aggro is bad right now and needs to be fixed.

- Hotfix the Astral Shield stacking. They shouldn't stack. Period.

I have not done it, but I have seen it done, and it is pretty bad, but dont pull the plug fully. Maybe give it diminishing returns. Like 1=100%, 2=150%, 3=175%, and so on and so forth to make sure that it cant stack too much. I mean, even giving the power back to the tank class doesnt mean everyone will be a tank. Astral Shield is a good alternative when Pugs doesnt give you a tank.

- Remove the 5 mob aggro cap from the GF's taunt. It's just silly. Ot give him more single target damage if his purpose is to tank the boss. Currently a Rogue does the job better...

Didnt even know this was a thing. With bosses spawning upwards of 20 minions, they REALLY need to pull aggro for alot more. Whats the point of pulling 5 mobs when the cleric still has 10 or more attacking him.

steppenkat

jedizalm wrote: »

Didnt even know this was a thing. With bosses spawning upwards of 20 minions, they REALLY need to pull aggro for alot more. Whats the point of pulling 5 mobs when the cleric still has 10 or more attacking him.

Exactly, this isn't realistic once you play a couple of bossfights when talking about game design. How are you supposed to play a Defender when the average fight has 10 adds or more? You need to run around and taunt them one by one?

lyokira

steppenkat wrote: »

First of all: I'm in love with this game, so this post is intended to be constructive. I think I've made my point clear in other posts. I know every game has flaws, and making them clear while adding suggestions on how to solve them helps the game.

There is a huge problem that threatens Neverwinter, and when I mean huge, I mean gamebreaking.

The Cleric.

There is absolutely no reason to play a Guardian Fighter. He can only pull 5 mobs at once. He does no damage compared to the rest of the classes. He is basically, a waste of slot when you can pick a second Cleric.

For people that don't know, a double Cleric comp can do the tanking job much better. It is because of a power the Cleric has: Astral Shield. It mitigates damage. Two Clerics can cast two Astral Shields that STACK. Also, Clerics can draw aggro of ALL THE MOBS due to their broken aggro ratings. Cleric tanks. You heard it. Clerics who tank better damage than a GF, who deal more damage, can heal, and... basically turn a whole class into complete uselesness in the endgame.

I don't think it's fair. It's an exploit, quit with the "meta speech". This isn't League of Legends, nor 3.5 where you can multiclass. GFs SHOULD be better tanks than a Cleric.

I have three suggestions to solve this problem:

- Nerf heal aggro from the Cleric. Really, it's dumb how it is at the moment.

- Hotfix the Astral Shield stacking. They shouldn't stack. Period.

- Remove the 5 mob aggro cap from the GF's taunt. It's just silly. Ot give him more single target damage if his purpose is to tank the boss. Currently a Rogue does the job better...

I don't play a GF, by the way. I'm concerned with their situation, however. I want Neverwinter to be a better game, hence the purpose of the post. This is a core issue that should be adressed asap.

You forgot about their Foresight stacking with each other, and that two clerics negate their biggest weakness: the inability to heal themselves well.

However, you also assumed that GF has bad DPS: in fact it's quite the reverse. Even assuming Clerics tanking everything GFs can still block many knockbacks which most classes have to outright dodge (and since clerics are using dual seals the guard damage would be minimal), has an at-will lunge which lets them get back faster into melee in the event they need to dodge, and frankly has a LOT of damage multipliers (assuming built for conqueror).

fongador

steppenkat wrote: »

- Remove the 5 mob aggro cap from the GF's taunt. It's just silly. Ot give him more single target damage if his purpose is to tank the boss. Currently a Rogue does the job better...

Wth? Wasn't aware they had this. No wonder they have such issues. So they can taunt five out of the fifty mobs bosses spawn. Schweeeet....

Healing aggro seriously needs tweaked...with like a sledgehammer preferably.

steppenkat

lyokira wrote: »

You forgot about their Foresight stacking with each other, and that two clerics negate their biggest weakness: the inability to heal themselves well.

However, you also assumed that GF has bad DPS: in fact it's quite the reverse. Even assuming Clerics tanking everything GFs can still block many knockbacks which most classes have to outright dodge (and since clerics are using dual seals the guard damage would be minimal), has an at-will lunge which lets them get back faster into melee in the event they need to dodge, and frankly has a LOT of damage multipliers (assuming built for conqueror).

I'm assuming that when you can put a Rogue doing basically the same job. Single target DPS wise, the GF is inferior to most classes. Even built as a Conqueror.

And frankly, when the tank class must try to optimize for DPS when playing for PvE... is an issue.

lyokira

fongador wrote: »

Wth? Wasn't aware they had this. No wonder they have such issues. So they can taunt five out of the fifty mobs bosses spawn. Schweeeet....

Healing aggro seriously needs tweaked...with like a sledgehammer preferably.

Well, I guess that explains why my Enforced threat sometimes doesn't work properly. Not that it matters that much, so long as it prioritizes the elite mobs... Of course, it probably doesn't, so bah.

jedizalm

steppenkat wrote: »

I'm assuming that when you can put a Rogue doing basically the same job. Single target DPS wise, the GF is inferior to most classes. Even built as a Conqueror.

And frankly, when the tank class must try to optimize for DPS when playing for PvE... is an issue.

I normally play a cleric, but I only use heals and the hallowed ground daily. I had no idea tank were so far off the front for aggro though. Man...Tanks need to be tank, and clerics should be able to make desperate times impromptu tanks. wizards and rogues should never be tanks.

kaiserschmarrn

The real problem - before we get to balance anything - are the tier 2 dungeons. Have you guys done any of them ? You will have 20-40 elite adds spawning and chasing your cleric around and some stuff like !Epic! Dreadvault is next to impossible. Fix the GF first, then fix the other skills and rebalance some of the T2 dungeons. If the GF finally received the skills for proper tanking, there would be no problem and the cleric could be rebalanced.

datemper

I play a DC and this even makes me sad panda. =(

For me it's not so much stacking of shields or even the near invincibility.What I think is wrong is the ability to keep the shield up infinitely,that's what breaks it in my opinion.

If it's any consolation,I watched a rather popular streamer&Co fail ad nauseum at the dragon this afternoon using a dual DC setup.(right after they spent a good few hours abusing another bugged boss for endless loot drops)

jedizalm

datemper wrote: »

If it's any consolation,I watched a rather popular streamer&Co fail ad nauseum at the dragon this afternoon using a dual DC setup.(right after they spent a good few hours abusing another bugged boss for endless loot drops)

That may have just been karma, not actually the dual DC not working. I have seen a video of a group doing dual DC on a GWF and flawlessly destroying the dracolich. In epic mode.

lyokira

steppenkat wrote: »

I'm assuming that when you can put a Rogue doing basically the same job. Single target DPS wise, the GF is inferior to most classes. Even built as a Conqueror.

And frankly, when the tank class must try to optimize for DPS when playing for PvE... is an issue.

Actually, I think GF has the 2nd highest single target DPS but eh. And there are perfectly valid reasons for tanks to optimize for DPS. Enemies are better dead than tanked after all. (and of course, more damage = more threat)

jedizalm

lyokira wrote: »

Actually, I think GF has the 2nd highest single target DPS but eh. And there are perfectly valid reasons for tanks to optimize for DPS. Enemies are better dead than tanked after all. (and of course, more damage = more threat)

This could be a working mindframe, if the enemies in boss rooms didnt endlessly spawn, and you could kill them in two or three hits. But it takes ALOT of dmg to kill end game elites, which have a bad habit of spawning 10-15 strong in boss rooms, and they take lot longer to kill than you might think at end game. So as of now, the idea that 'enemies are better dead than tanked' is more of the problem than the solution.

hadryel1

Im still only lvl 56 but since i got astral shield i feel its too good, atleast if you compar it with our other skills (hallowed ground with the fet is good too, but not even close). I think its a problem after all cause you r forced to have astral shield always, as its a must for everything. Its our best mitigation and healing spell with a huge dif. Maybe it can be downed a bit and the other skills buffed so we can decide something more than "spam astral shield all the time". But the problem is the rest of our skills feel a bit weak too.
Also with the threat theres a huge problem. I suppose some clerics might want to tank, but im sure a lot doesnt want to, but we always get the agro. Even with -60% less agro we r still agroing everything as soon as it comes. its need a fix, i know im not a priest to stand behind and watch bars, but i dont want to tank all the adds that come, i want to be here offhealing, debuffing, and helping the group as its supposed to work my class, not being the tank or running like a headless chicken.

lyokira

jedizalm wrote: »

This could be a working mindframe, if the enemies in boss rooms didnt endlessly spawn, and you could kill them in two or three hits. But it takes ALOT of dmg to kill end game elites, which have a bad habit of spawning 10-15 strong in boss rooms, and they take lot longer to kill than you might think at end game. So as of now, the idea that 'enemies are better dead than tanked' is more of the problem than the solution.

Maybe. But as of now, a GF can't hold aggro on all of them anyway. (without dual clerics, the GF would outright get killed by the 10 elites smacking him even if he manages to get aggro. With dual clerics... well, that's the whole point of this topic, isn't it.)

xantris

kaiserschmarrn wrote: »

The real problem - before we get to balance anything - are the tier 2 dungeons. Have you guys done any of them ? You will have 20-40 elite adds spawning and chasing your cleric around and some stuff like !Epic! Dreadvault is next to impossible. Fix the GF first, then fix the other skills and rebalance some of the T2 dungeons. If the GF finally received the skills for proper tanking, there would be no problem and the cleric could be rebalanced.

I'd rather they fix the cleric aggro and shield and see where we are from there. Otherwise you end up with a bunch of waffling nerfs and buffs that may or may not be necessary.

I most think encounters need to be rebalanced at the higher end around the idea of there being only one astral shield.

xantris

steppenkat wrote: »

First of all: I'm in love with this game, so this post is intended to be constructive. I think I've made my point clear in other posts. I know every game has flaws, and making them clear while adding suggestions on how to solve them helps the game.

There is a huge problem that threatens Neverwinter, and when I mean huge, I mean gamebreaking.

The Cleric.

There is absolutely no reason to play a Guardian Fighter. He can only pull 5 mobs at once. He does no damage compared to the rest of the classes. He is basically, a waste of slot when you can pick a second Cleric.

For people that don't know, a double Cleric comp can do the tanking job much better. It is because of a power the Cleric has: Astral Shield. It mitigates damage. Two Clerics can cast two Astral Shields that STACK. Also, Clerics can draw aggro of ALL THE MOBS due to their broken aggro ratings. Cleric tanks. You heard it. Clerics who tank better damage than a GF, who deal more damage, can heal, and... basically turn a whole class into complete uselesness in the endgame.

I don't think it's fair. It's an exploit, quit with the "meta speech". This isn't League of Legends, nor 3.5 where you can multiclass. GFs SHOULD be better tanks than a Cleric.

I have three suggestions to solve this problem:

- Nerf heal aggro from the Cleric. Really, it's dumb how it is at the moment.

- Hotfix the Astral Shield stacking. They shouldn't stack. Period.

- Remove the 5 mob aggro cap from the GF's taunt. It's just silly. Ot give him more single target damage if his purpose is to tank the boss. Currently a Rogue does the job better...

I don't play a GF, by the way. I'm concerned with their situation, however. I want Neverwinter to be a better game, hence the purpose of the post. This is a core issue that should be adressed asap.

I agree with everything you said.

xantris

datemper wrote: »

I play a DC and this even makes me sad panda. =(

For me it's not so much stacking of shields or even the near invincibility.What I think is wrong is the ability to keep the shield up infinitely,that's what breaks it in my opinion.

If it's any consolation,I watched a rather popular streamer&Co fail ad nauseum at the dragon this afternoon using a dual DC setup.(right after they spent a good few hours abusing another bugged boss for endless loot drops)

Was that Kripp? I hope they either ban there accounts or confiscate all items and AD. I hate when players knowing exploit something like that and get away with it.

jesla

You guys need to get your facts straight Astral shield for sure does not stack and according to the latest info it looks like foresight doesn't either. The cleric forums have great posts but some really great players who have tested this extensively and they all recommend with 2 clerics for 1 cleric to drop astral shield and foresight for dps abilities otherwise its a waste to the group. Also i personally play a cleric and i would in no way want to take the tanks job astral shield is great and all but you start getting enough adds on you and a boss and your dead as we can not mitigate the dmg like a tank can. As its been stated in many many posts the aggro issue could be tweaked a bit but for now it is working as intended of course newly spawned mobs are gonna hit the cleric as during a fight the cleric is constantly healing through all his abilities so its constant aggro but soon as the tank or a dps hit a newly spawned mob a few times they take the aggro away.

shiroiojika

This isn't wow, don't try to enforce your tired old trinity on this game.

vorkreist1

shiroiojika wrote: »

This isn't wow, don't try to enforce your tired old trinity on this game.

Enjoying that broken Cleric much?

razorjack156

The trinity was around long before Wow, and only the kiddies who want OP classes think it's a good idea not to have it. Kiddies who play MMORPG's like they are solo games and play healers who think they are leet cause they score high on damage charts .. but only heal themselves should go back to their solo campaign platform games where they don't ruin the game for people who actually enjoy working as a group.

jedizalm

razorjack156 wrote: »

The trinity was around long before Wow, and only the kiddies who want OP classes think it's a good idea not to have it. Kiddies who play MMORPG's like they are solo games and play healers who think they are leet cause they score high on damage charts .. but only heal themselves should go back to their solo campaign platform games where they don't ruin the game for people who actually enjoy working as a group.

I think its called Kingdoms of Alamur:Reckoning. Its basically a MMO you play by yourself. Or Fable.

But yeah, agreed.

munkey81

steppenkat wrote: »

First of all: I'm in love with this game, so this post is intended to be constructive. I think I've made my point clear in other posts. I know every game has flaws, and making them clear while adding suggestions on how to solve them helps the game.

There is a huge problem that threatens Neverwinter, and when I mean huge, I mean gamebreaking.

The Cleric.

There is absolutely no reason to play a Guardian Fighter. He can only pull 5 mobs at once. He does no damage compared to the rest of the classes. He is basically, a waste of slot when you can pick a second Cleric.

For people that don't know, a double Cleric comp can do the tanking job much better. It is because of a power the Cleric has: Astral Shield. It mitigates damage. Two Clerics can cast two Astral Shields that STACK. Also, Clerics can draw aggro of ALL THE MOBS due to their broken aggro ratings. Cleric tanks. You heard it. Clerics who tank better damage than a GF, who deal more damage, can heal, and... basically turn a whole class into complete uselesness in the endgame.

I don't think it's fair. It's an exploit, quit with the "meta speech". This isn't League of Legends, nor 3.5 where you can multiclass. GFs SHOULD be better tanks than a Cleric.

I have three suggestions to solve this problem:

- Nerf heal aggro from the Cleric. Really, it's dumb how it is at the moment.

- Hotfix the Astral Shield stacking. They shouldn't stack. Period.

- Remove the 5 mob aggro cap from the GF's taunt. It's just silly. Ot give him more single target damage if his purpose is to tank the boss. Currently a Rogue does the job better...

I don't play a GF, by the way. I'm concerned with their situation, however. I want Neverwinter to be a better game, hence the purpose of the post. This is a core issue that should be adressed asap.

I find it funny, that every post regarding nerfing anything on a Cleric, has to do with how sub-par "you" think GF's are. The majority of GFs and clerics just plain dont know how to play the class. I've met many GF's who are amazing and know the class well. Lastnight in T2 pirate I took 350k dmg, lowest on the board. I also topped healing at 3.5mil, and Had 8.6mildmg. Pretty sure that GF knew what he was doing, and did it right. Sounds to me like theres nothing wrong with GF.

The games been out 18 days. Stop crying about everything, stop posting on the forums because "you" cant figure something out..go play and learn, watch a ****ing video for gawds sake.

Also, I generally never run with 2 clerics in T2's.................that being said, if they are going to nerf AS, they need to remove Righteousness cuz its aboslutely HAMSTER. If you even know what that is =/

jedizalm

And he's back. I thought we had more time before he arose.

steppenkat

munkey81 wrote: »

I find it funny, that every post regarding nerfing anything on a Cleric, has to do with how sub-par "you" think GF's are. The majority of GFs and clerics just plain dont know how to play the class. I've met many GF's who are amazing and know the class well. Lastnight in T2 pirate I took 350k dmg, lowest on the board. I also topped healing at 3.5mil, and Had 8.6mildmg. Pretty sure that GF knew what he was doing, and did it right. Sounds to me like theres nothing wrong with GF.

The games been out 18 days. Stop crying about everything, stop posting on the forums because "you" cant figure something out..go play and learn, watch a ****ing video for gawds sake.

Also, I generally never run with 2 clerics in T2's.................that being said, if they are going to nerf AS, they need to remove Righteousness cuz its aboslutely HAMSTER. If you even know what that is =/

I know what it is. Try every single T2 dungeon with a Double Cleric comp rather than a GF. You'll see how it's a much more efficient comp at this moment.

Being amazing with a sub-par class doesn't mean the class is okay. You CAN play a GF how it is at the moment. You could, for instance, reduce TR's damage by half, and it would still be playable. Harder, but playable. Everything is playable, but the playerbase isn't dumb and they go for what's more efficient.

This is not the "GWF" syndrome where people try the class at level 10 and then quit. We're talking about endgame, Tier 2 - Castle Never.

And if two clerics are more efficient than a GF, there's a serious balancing issue going on. Ignoring it or saying it's a "whine" is to stick your head in sand and pretend the problem isn't there.

munkey81

steppenkat wrote: »

I know what it is. Try every single T2 dungeon with a Double Cleric comp rather than a GF. You'll see how it's a much more efficient comp at this moment.

Being amazing with a sub-par class doesn't mean the class is okay. You CAN play a GF how it is at the moment. You could, for instance, reduce TR's damage by half, and it would still be playable. Harder, but playable. Everything is playable, but the playerbase isn't dumb and they go for what's more efficient.

This is not the "GWF" syndrome where people try the class at level 10 and then quit. We're talking about endgame, Tier 2 - Castle Never.

And if two clerics are more efficient than a GF, there's a serious balancing issue going on. Ignoring it or saying it's a "whine" is to stick your head in sand and pretend the problem isn't there.

Again, "you", saying GF's are sub-par is just like, your opinion man I "have" done every T2 with one cleric, with a great GF and my job was very easy. Because when played right, accompanied with a cleric that also knows how to play, 2 clerics are "not" necessary, nor more efficient.

Go to youtube, type in Talgoth the Vile, and Valindras Pet, watch the videos. Then tell me you still need 2 clerics, and GF's are subpar. They make that **** look easy.

Cheers

banecrushr

Well, they could also simply make it so if you go cleric, then you have one path that allows you to go full tanking. But you lose the abilities that go along with the healing spec.... does that make sence? Played a game where you had that choice, now that cleric could self heal, just not as high or as good as the grp built clerics... just a thought on this, as I to think this is out of whack, a tanking class is just that a TANK. But with a threat gen that only pulls 5 mobs is a bit well rediculous. One reason alot of people are simply not doing all the dungons... at least I'm not, when all you do is go wipe wipe wipe ... the queing should be set so that only certian classes and certian numbers of said class can join at one time. Meaning there isnt 4 rogues and a cleric etc...

narathkor

You have been with some bad tanks then. 1 I can grab up more than 5 mobs without a problem, the trick is target swapping, using your marks effectively, tank does not need to do much damage to hold agro. 2 Knights valor, lasts 10 seconds with 10 seconds in between, sucks up half the damage that the party is taking and that damage can be blocked so effectively you can mitigate 25% of the entire parties damage the entire fight and negate it completely, now stack that with astral shield and I will show you a party that lives. The game works the best with a balanced team of classes.

lyokira

razorjack156 wrote: »

The trinity was around long before Wow, and only the kiddies who want OP classes think it's a good idea not to have it. Kiddies who play MMORPG's like they are solo games and play healers who think they are leet cause they score high on damage charts .. but only heal themselves should go back to their solo campaign platform games where they don't ruin the game for people who actually enjoy working as a group.

You obviously haven't played proper action MMOs then. Trinity is hardly needed for games, it's just convenient to enforce teamwork.
EXAMPLE: Realm of the Mad God.

steppenkat wrote: »

And if two clerics are more efficient than a GF, there's a serious balancing issue going on. Ignoring it or saying it's a "whine" is to stick your head in sand and pretend the problem isn't there.

Obviously 2 is going to be better than one. I believe you meant that 2 clerics is better than a GF + cleric.

chumbucket1313

munkey81 wrote: »

I find it funny, that every post regarding nerfing anything on a Cleric, has to do with how sub-par "you" think GF's are. The majority of GFs and clerics just plain dont know how to play the class. I've met many GF's who are amazing and know the class well. Lastnight in T2 pirate I took 350k dmg, lowest on the board. I also topped healing at 3.5mil, and Had 8.6mildmg. Pretty sure that GF knew what he was doing, and did it right. Sounds to me like theres nothing wrong with GF.

The games been out 18 days. Stop crying about everything, stop posting on the forums because "you" cant figure something out..go play and learn, watch a ****ing video for gawds sake.

Also, I generally never run with 2 clerics in T2's.................that being said, if they are going to nerf AS, they need to remove Righteousness cuz its aboslutely HAMSTER. If you even know what that is =/

YES PLEASE remove righteousness! It makes clerics self heals 40% less effective so your in a dungeon group and can heal everyone but yourself. This is the stupidest thing I have ever come across.