I have watched many videos and most of the high level raiders doing T2's don't even bring a tank because it's ineffective and too much work compared to using the heal aggro of two DC's.
So...which brings me back to, if this is how it's supposed to be, why are there tanks?
Thats why you see most GF specing into a dps build because they cant tank in a per say tank roll. They interrupt they cause confusion and HAMSTER 5 mobs off really well but that is about it. I think a lot are using the rational that if you dps enuff you will get agro but then the cleric throws the OS heal (which is pretty much all we have) and healing goes crazy and the mobs hit the cleric. I ran a never run with a geared GF (i am not saying he is a tank god or anything just he was geared at i think a 12.5 + gs) everytime i would toss AS out it was like instant candy to the mobs and they would try to eat me up and then i go in a heal furry and that even makes it worse.
Thats why you see most GF specing into a dps build because they cant tank in a per say tank roll. They interrupt they cause confusion and HAMSTER 5 mobs off really well but that is about it. I think a lot are using the rational that if you dps enuff you will get agro but then the cleric throws the OS heal (which is pretty much all we have) and healing goes crazy and the mobs hit the cleric. I ran a never run with a geared GF (i am not saying he is a tank god or anything just he was geared at i think a 12.5 + gs) everytime i would toss AS out it was like instant candy to the mobs and they would try to eat me up and then i go in a heal furry and that even makes it worse.
12k GF here and the level 15 tank companion can pull and hold agro :P
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
Again, many tanks, and clerics are not having problems. Prime example of tanking and healing on youtube, watch the video of valindras pet and talgoth. I've answered you many times, you just dont want to here the truth.
Quote. "YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!"....../snicker
Cheers!
You Sir are in la la land......... If you really think this is not an issue.....
Anyway, I'm not gonna argue with you I could care less if it changes at this point because I've already quit because of it so it doesn't bother me anymore.......
I just don't see any need for a tank in this game the way it's setup at the moment you would be better off with nothing but TR,CW and DC you don't need a GF or GWF atm no point in having either which basically tells you the overall state of the game........
There in lies the problem. This is not other mmo's, the combat system is differant. Plenty of GF's and Clerics are having the time of there lives, me included. Stop comparing this game to others, what worked in wow, or Eq, or guildwars, obviously is not the same here. You are free to leave this game to the big boys, its very apparent many cannot handle the difficulty of mastering the class's. Enjoy your button mashing wow.
/wave
P.S. You can mail all your stuff to me since you wont be needing it,
No, you can't have my stuff because I already gave it to my guildies sorry.......
Your comments are hilarious btw.... TY for the entertainment stuff such as your having the time of your life and leave the game to the big boys and enjoy my button mashing Wow.....
(because here we don't just mash buttons either) *rollseyes*
No, you can't have my stuff because I already gave it to my guildies sorry.......
Your comments are hilarious btw.... TY for the entertainment stuff such as your having the time of your life and leave the game to the big boys and enjoy my button mashing Wow.....
(because here we don't just mash buttons either) *rollseyes*
There is absolutely no reason to play a Guardian Fighter. He can only pull 5 mobs at once. He does no damage compared to the rest of the classes. He is basically, a waste of slot when you can pick a second Cleric.
There is absolutely no reason to play a Guardian Fighter. He can only pull 5 mobs at once. He does no damage compared to the rest of the classes. He is basically, a waste of slot when you can pick a second Cleric.
Couldn't Agree more. Make GF a useful tank please. How can this go overlooked by the development team.
- Remove the 5 mob aggro cap from the GF's taunt. It's just silly. Or give him more single target damage if his purpose is to tank the boss. Currently a Rogue does the job better...
Agree. In our current groups we have the rogue tanking the boss on a lot of encounters. So silly...they are not intended to be tanks...yet they are filling the tanks role. PLEASE, for the love of the game...stop the madness and tone down the HEAL THREAT of the cleric. It just stupid right now.
GF can tank fine with a party that has patience and not ADD. But you can tank better with the GWF everyone thinks is a completely wasted class. Maybe the GF need to stop building DPS GFs?
GF can tank fine with a party that has patience and not ADD. But you can tank better with the GWF everyone thinks is a completely wasted class. Maybe the GF need to stop building DPS GFs?
Non dps GF is a total waste of a party slot in epic dungeons.
Again, "you", saying GF's are sub-par is just like, your opinion man I "have" done every T2 with one cleric, with a great GF and my job was very easy. Because when played right, accompanied with a cleric that also knows how to play, 2 clerics are "not" necessary, nor more efficient.
Go to youtube, type in Talgoth the Vile, and Valindras Pet, watch the videos. Then tell me you still need 2 clerics, and GF's are subpar. They make that **** look easy.
Cheers
One GF and one Cleric or two Clerics...it matters not. I play a GF and a fine one. My guild and I can tackle most content with no problem...T2, etc. This is not the point however. Despite the fact that we CAN complete content, does not justify or remedy the existing issues with heal threat. You would have to be completely blind not to see it. Fret not though Monkey, this thread is not about nerfing clerics if that is what you are worried about. We simply want the THREAT that healing generates to be addressed.
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dezmerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
GF and aggro need a lot of work to make GF an actual tank, this has nothing to do with Astral Shield. If AS didn't exist I think a lot of high-end dungeons would be completely undoable.
As far as clerics stacking AS I have no idea since 2 clerics stacking AS sounds like an excruciatingly slow team and would be better served with 2 CW actually focused on mass CC instead of single-target DPS wannabe strikers like so many of them are.
As a GF since BW2 - the tanking is knackered at endgame, regardless of how good your build is, a t2 dungeon is not for GF's, honestly, our aggro is so bad that it's just not worth it, i am regretting sticking with the GF, prolly role a new toon.
My Web: http://www.symonator.net
Toons:
New: CW Level 60
GF = Level 60
DC = Level 60
TR = Level 60
How is healaggro a problem ? you stand there next to your other 2 clerics in the zone dodge nothing because you can't die anyway and let the 2 Rogues clear the rest. Nothing else is needed to clear the current content, so why even bother ?
First of all: I'm in love with this game, so this post is intended to be constructive. I think I've made my point clear in other posts. I know every game has flaws, and making them clear while adding suggestions on how to solve them helps the game.
There is a huge problem that threatens Neverwinter, and when I mean huge, I mean gamebreaking.
The Cleric.
There is absolutely no reason to play a Guardian Fighter. He can only pull 5 mobs at once. He does no damage compared to the rest of the classes. He is basically, a waste of slot when you can pick a second Cleric.
For people that don't know, a double Cleric comp can do the tanking job much better. It is because of a power the Cleric has: Astral Shield. It mitigates damage. Two Clerics can cast two Astral Shields that STACK. Also, Clerics can draw aggro of ALL THE MOBS due to their broken aggro ratings. Cleric tanks. You heard it. Clerics who tank better damage than a GF, who deal more damage, can heal, and... basically turn a whole class into complete uselesness in the endgame.
I don't think it's fair. It's an exploit, quit with the "meta speech". This isn't League of Legends, nor 3.5 where you can multiclass. GFs SHOULD be better tanks than a Cleric.
I have three suggestions to solve this problem:
- Nerf heal aggro from the Cleric. Really, it's dumb how it is at the moment.
- Hotfix the Astral Shield stacking. They shouldn't stack. Period.
- Remove the 5 mob aggro cap from the GF's taunt. It's just silly. Ot give him more single target damage if his purpose is to tank the boss. Currently a Rogue does the job better...
I don't play a GF, by the way. I'm concerned with their situation, however. I want Neverwinter to be a better game, hence the purpose of the post. This is a core issue that should be adressed asap.
You are probably one of these lame GFs without a slightest clue on how to do their job right.
Well let me tell you this: I much prefer competent(keyword) GF to a 2nd cleric in group. If you start actually doing serious heroics you will know why.
Oh and by the way, I am cleric. Who had the pleasure of running few dungeons with really good GFs as well as other classes who knew their roles and how to do it.
edit: Oh so you don't even play GF? Well thats even more awesome, just crawl back under the bridge you left and stop grouping with utter noobs.
However you've moved 1 concern that is actually valid. Cleric aggro. Everyone knows its broken and clerics aggro much more then they should, there are workaround for this, but this bug should be fixed asap.
GF and aggro need a lot of work to make GF an actual tank, this has nothing to do with Astral Shield. If AS didn't exist I think a lot of high-end dungeons would be completely undoable.
As far as clerics stacking AS I have no idea since 2 clerics stacking AS sounds like an excruciatingly slow team and would be better served with 2 CW actually focused on mass CC instead of single-target DPS wannabe strikers like so many of them are.
From what I have been hearing AS stacking is the fastest set-up around. If Astral Shield works the way I believe it does then the issue will be that it gives a direct Damage Resistance % which would mean that stacking it actually increases defense exponentially. Say you have a 20% damage resistance and you get an additional +20% from Astral Shield, your damage resistance goes up to 40% damage resistance. This means you actually cut out a quarter of the damage you were taking, now if you increase this with another shield you get another 20% and so you get a 60% which then cuts out a 1/3rd of the damage you were taking while only in a single shield...
I don't know the exact percentages of this, the numbers above maybe wrong and this may not be the way astral shield works. Also there is another thing that maybe kicking in called foresight...
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dezmerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
How is healaggro a problem ? you stand there next to your other 2 clerics in the zone dodge nothing because you can't die anyway and let the 2 Rogues clear the rest. Nothing else is needed to clear the current content, so why even bother ?
I don't know what you're doing but I'm going to assume you are using Cloak Tower or something as a benchmark.
Astral Shield is not god mode it's absolutely vital to keep things from 2-shotting you later on. I literally do not think there would be an endgame without it.
I don't know what you're doing but I'm going to assume you are using Cloak Tower or something as a benchmark.
Astral Shield is not god mode it's absolutely vital to keep things from 2-shotting you later on. I literally do not think there would be an endgame without it.
My favorite part about Astral shield is that a GF can't even try to aoe tank without astral shield but if they do aoe tank in astral shield the DC gets all the agro.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
It's a very easy fix. Make Astral shield unstackable, meaning you only get one stack effect regardless of how many shields are there.
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ciarenbMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
Astral is a savior for the team, killer for the Cleric, before level 60 I had already earned the "take most damage in 10 dungeons" etc every dungeon since level 1 I as a cleric have taken most or 2nd most damage, taking off sooth actually helped me, im now 2nd or 3rd in most dungeons, I can't do T2 epic dungeon though, If I try, 1 AS and aggro from 10+ elite adds, and im dead in a single shot, Cleric is for lack of a better term broken, but what class isn't at the moment, I've had a GF on my team, dealt most dmg, took most dmg, most kills, beast of a player.
as someone on these forums said, the game is so imbalanced its balanced...for pvp atleast.
There's nothing wrong with Clerics or their agro. There's something wrong with GFs whether it be a mixture of them being inept and skill short comings. For the amount of agro a Cleric pulls, and how dumb people tend to be, Astral Shield is fine. When I play with clueless PUGS I still might die because people still don't understand that ADDS > Boss.
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jihancritiasMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Clerics are not your problem. Most of us don't want to be doing your job in addition to our own. We don't want all that aggro, and we didn't roll clerics to tank. However, Cryptic has not given GF/ GWF's the tools you need to do your job. When you can hold aggro, we won't have to.
Add to that the fact that clerics do a terrible job healing themselves. That -40% debuff means that each cleric's job is essentially healing the other cleric.
Righteousness Debuff + Loopy High Heal Threat + Tank Classes Without proper Threat Tools + 4538393493 adds in every single boss fight = Two Cleric System.
astral shield stacking is a little exaggerated compared to other methods right now, but I would like interesting combos like that to remain viable in the future. tank and spank is a thing of the past, double cleric should be an option and other exotic setups should be introduced as more classes are released.
Comments
I think, if anything, they should allow for diminishing returns, as I said the first time around. 1 cast = 100%. Stacked 2= 150%. Stacked 3=175%
Just incase you dont get a tank, its still helpful to stack and get an impromptu tank on a GWF or Cleric.
12k GF here and the level 15 tank companion can pull and hold agro :P
You Sir are in la la land......... If you really think this is not an issue.....
Anyway, I'm not gonna argue with you I could care less if it changes at this point because I've already quit because of it so it doesn't bother me anymore.......
I just don't see any need for a tank in this game the way it's setup at the moment you would be better off with nothing but TR,CW and DC you don't need a GF or GWF atm no point in having either which basically tells you the overall state of the game........
Nerf Cleric Threat.
Remove Righteousness.
Nerf Astral Shield.
I don't want "mandatory" skills anyway.
No, you can't have my stuff because I already gave it to my guildies sorry.......
Your comments are hilarious btw.... TY for the entertainment stuff such as your having the time of your life and leave the game to the big boys and enjoy my button mashing Wow.....
(because here we don't just mash buttons either) *rollseyes*
Pure gold you should have a been a comedian.....
/wave
8)
/smile
/bow
Couldn't Agree more. Make GF a useful tank please. How can this go overlooked by the development team.
This is so obvious...why has it gone this long unchecked by the development team? Why??
Agree. In our current groups we have the rogue tanking the boss on a lot of encounters. So silly...they are not intended to be tanks...yet they are filling the tanks role. PLEASE, for the love of the game...stop the madness and tone down the HEAL THREAT of the cleric. It just stupid right now.
Nuff said.
"tired old trinity"... You do realize you're talking about D&D, right? /facepalm.
Cryptic cryptic cryptic.........
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Non dps GF is a total waste of a party slot in epic dungeons.
One GF and one Cleric or two Clerics...it matters not. I play a GF and a fine one. My guild and I can tackle most content with no problem...T2, etc. This is not the point however. Despite the fact that we CAN complete content, does not justify or remedy the existing issues with heal threat. You would have to be completely blind not to see it. Fret not though Monkey, this thread is not about nerfing clerics if that is what you are worried about.
As far as clerics stacking AS I have no idea since 2 clerics stacking AS sounds like an excruciatingly slow team and would be better served with 2 CW actually focused on mass CC instead of single-target DPS wannabe strikers like so many of them are.
Toons:
New: CW Level 60
GF = Level 60
DC = Level 60
TR = Level 60
You are probably one of these lame GFs without a slightest clue on how to do their job right.
Well let me tell you this: I much prefer competent(keyword) GF to a 2nd cleric in group. If you start actually doing serious heroics you will know why.
Oh and by the way, I am cleric. Who had the pleasure of running few dungeons with really good GFs as well as other classes who knew their roles and how to do it.
edit: Oh so you don't even play GF? Well thats even more awesome, just crawl back under the bridge you left and stop grouping with utter noobs.
However you've moved 1 concern that is actually valid. Cleric aggro. Everyone knows its broken and clerics aggro much more then they should, there are workaround for this, but this bug should be fixed asap.
From what I have been hearing AS stacking is the fastest set-up around. If Astral Shield works the way I believe it does then the issue will be that it gives a direct Damage Resistance % which would mean that stacking it actually increases defense exponentially. Say you have a 20% damage resistance and you get an additional +20% from Astral Shield, your damage resistance goes up to 40% damage resistance. This means you actually cut out a quarter of the damage you were taking, now if you increase this with another shield you get another 20% and so you get a 60% which then cuts out a 1/3rd of the damage you were taking while only in a single shield...
I don't know the exact percentages of this, the numbers above maybe wrong and this may not be the way astral shield works. Also there is another thing that maybe kicking in called foresight...
I don't know what you're doing but I'm going to assume you are using Cloak Tower or something as a benchmark.
Astral Shield is not god mode it's absolutely vital to keep things from 2-shotting you later on. I literally do not think there would be an endgame without it.
My favorite part about Astral shield is that a GF can't even try to aoe tank without astral shield but if they do aoe tank in astral shield the DC gets all the agro.
as someone on these forums said, the game is so imbalanced its balanced...for pvp atleast.
Add to that the fact that clerics do a terrible job healing themselves. That -40% debuff means that each cleric's job is essentially healing the other cleric.
Righteousness Debuff + Loopy High Heal Threat + Tank Classes Without proper Threat Tools + 4538393493 adds in every single boss fight = Two Cleric System.