while i understand your premiss, and some what agree with it. The problem is when "engaging" a pack of mobs ( let's say some elites or a boss encounter), there will be several mobs that go straight to the cleric before anything has been touched/hit or cc'd. This would suggest that there is some sort of "residual" threat still present and that clerics are "going into a fight" with aggro already stacked on them. This cannot be "working as intended" as it does put clerics at a marked dis-advantage and makes the entire group start with "2 strikes" against them, so to speak.
When I solo with my cleric companion they do the same thing. I would charge in and they all head straight for her before she even does anything. Even the mobs I`ve hit/marked will make a beeline for her. Aggro and threat are touchy in this game and varies from instance to instance. Sometimes I can hold agro on multiple mobs while other times I cannot. It is never reliable except on bosses for the most part. Sometimes I can never get aggro no matter what I do and It feels pointless to even try. But this is where cc comes into the picture to make up for the lack of reliable taunting and some classes getting more agro then others.
When I solo with my cleric companion they do the same thing. I would charge in and they all head straight for her before she even does anything. Even the mobs I`ve hit/marked will make a beeline for her. Aggro and threat are touchy in this game and varies from instance to instance. Sometimes I can hold agro on multiple mobs while other times I cannot. It is never reliable except on bosses for the most part. Sometimes I can never get aggro no matter what I do and It feels pointless to even try. But this is where cc comes into the picture to make up for the lack of reliable taunting and some classes getting more agro then others.
this is the reason why i solo with a man at arms and not with a cleric. Man at arms is better, till now i never die soloing, he is able to hold the aggro for me and even in most critical situations i'm able to heal myself and survive. having the cleric that attract even more aggro is a bad idea because she heals you not that good and as dps doesn't do so much a good job.
Recommended cleric fixes: Remove the 40% healing self debuff (Righteousness) it is silly. Improve the value on Cleric heals across the board, maybe 30%-40% improved, and lastly fix the aggro issues, both for how much clerics pull and how little GF's pull. My 2 cents.
And then people would scream because the game would be really too easy, with clerics clearly OP and doing everything: dps, control and tanking. Healing yourself means you can tank as much as you want. No thank you.
Heals HAVE TO generate a lot of aggro, otherwise bosses and adds would just OS guardian fighers (they are resilient but not that much) while clerics would just sit in a corner tossing heals like bots. I have fun kiting, healing as much as i can when i have 2 seconds to do it between two red circles on the ground, with the guardian or the wizard to cover my ***.
I know it means the game is offering a challenge but that's what many people here are looking for. If you can't stand it then there are easier difficulty levels.
Healing should generate a lot less threat! Many boss fights are already forcing us to dodge and run all over the place that it's hard to pay attention to the boss, the ground/AOE/Cleave attacks the adds that are on screen *and* the next pack of adds that just respawned and are now heading straight for our healer!!!
I'm only a lvl 36 GF, but I think threat is working as intended. You are probably suppose to feel your in a fight and not just looking at health bars, and not standing in the fire. You are suppose to have a over whelming feeling that monsters keep comming at you. And the DPS have to do everything they can to kill of the spawns going after their Clearic.
If GF gets the ability to pick up aggro on any mob, even on boss fights, they would have to change the Guard. In boss fights it just does not seem like it's intended to be able to keep the guard up with boss AND mobs hitting you.
0
asakochanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
I'm only a lvl 36 GF, but I think threat is working as intended. You are probably suppose to feel your in a fight and not just looking at health bars, and not standing in the fire. You are suppose to have a over whelming feeling that monsters keep comming at you. And the DPS have to do everything they can to kill of the spawns going after their Clearic.
If GF gets the ability to pick up aggro on any mob, even on boss fights, they would have to change the Guard. In boss fights it just does not seem like it's intended to be able to keep the guard up with boss AND mobs hitting you.
man really?? :O
Then what is your role if the cleric must tank 50 adds while you concentrate on holding ONE boss?
I had a good laugh right now, ya know
I agree with healing aggro being too high, and with the GF toolbox being a little limited. Both need tuning. However, part of the issue is that Neverwinter is not a 'tank holds everything, healer heals tank, DPS mindlessly kills' game. The game seems to be tuned around the concept of the tank holds the boss. When adds spawn, the CW CCs them, the GWF gathers them, and the TR burns them down, then the DPS comes back to the boss. With the aggro model we have, if the DPS ignores adds, the healer gets them all. The whole group needs to work together and people need to play the role they've chosen to play with thier character choices.
I agree with healing aggro being too high, and with the GF toolbox being a little limited. Both need tuning. However, part of the issue is that Neverwinter is not a 'tank holds everything, healer heals tank, DPS mindlessly kills' game. The game seems to be tuned around the concept of the tank holds the boss. When adds spawn, the CW CCs them, the GWF gathers them, and the TR burns them down, then the DPS comes back to the boss. With the aggro model we have, if the DPS ignores adds, the healer gets them all. The whole group needs to work together and people need to play the role they've chosen to play with thier character choices.
if only groups worked like this, in reality maybe 5% of them do. Most of the time everybody gets tunnel vision and tries to nuke the boss, if they die or the group wipes, it's obviously the healers fault, ya know the cleric thats running around and being chased by every mob in the room and waving his hands in the air, screaming like a little girl with spiders in her hair >-<
Clerics aren't useless... they're actually required and OP as f*ck. 2 Clerics are nearly unkillable in PvP and PvE.
The aggro system in Neverwinter is horrible so you need to kite around as Cleric 24/7, even with a great Guardian.
I discovered this yesterday in Cloak tower and didn't have issue I think I hit one potion the entire dungeon usually my dps noticed and came right over and allowed me to dps down and heal up both myself and party. I think I didn't even have a point in sooth yet.
I don't actually have problem with this it makes the class more fun to play in my opinion because you can't just stand and heal you have to be reactive and can heal and dmg at the same time. I actually am loving the cleric style both solo and party because it plays different based on situation
The game seems to be tuned around the concept of the tank holds the boss.
...OR you can simply ping pong threat between TR's/GWF's, while dodging attacks, because a guardian isn't essential ? (he is useful but nowhere near irreplacable). Clerics ARE the tanks, the way things work at the moment, the tanks of the...kitting type.
When adds spawn, the CW CCs them, the GWF gathers them, and the TR burns them down, then the DPS comes back to the boss. With the aggro model we have, if the DPS ignores adds, the healer gets them all. The whole group needs to work together and people need to play the role they've chosen to play with thier character choices.
Either that or have the cleric do a Benny Hill, running around in circles, gathering adds, while CW's/GWF's burn (certain) adds down and the rogues focus on the boss. The basic principle remains the same and it's what happens when you design your so called challenging content, for the most part if not exclusively, around horde type of fights (which are fun up to the point that you discover that almost every fight is the same). While kitting is a valid strategy, it has been done before and it's nothing special or particularly challenging, once you get the hang of the mechanics. What is wrong with variety I wonder. Let's say have the tank hold some of the mobs down, maybe control or interrupt a few others, split the dps and control accordingly and have the cleric provide buffs and healing and still punish him for mistakes, while also having your chaotic horde fights ?
For now i think its broken. They hardly have any skills to hold mobs.
What worked well before for my group, was that you should let a tank go in first, build a bit of aggro. If clerics get agro, run away(you can run around in a small circle, works really well), but stick near the group so its easier for them to start pounding and trying to remove the mobs off ya. If you run away from the group, then your teammates are really gonna have a hard time chasing and attacking the mobs running after ya.
To aggravate the issue, GF's AoE attacks all have limits on the mobs they affect (3 mobs, 5 mobs max), and these limits are way lower the the ones on other classes, when said limits even exists on them.
This added to the insanelly high amount of adds every boss enconter spawns, leads to clerics doing more tanking than the tanks.
I don't mind micro-management and learning how to keep people alive and myself too, that makes it fun.. however, when I suggested yesterday in the dungeon that the adds be taken care of so that I could stay alive, the CW said "Mmmm nah"... Like, he had no intention of switching off of the boss, at all.
It was depressing. I gave the group several tries before finally dropping with the excuse "I don't think that this group has the coordination required for the encounter."
I will be glad when I find a guild that meets my requirements so that pick up groups are a thing of the past, though, this was the first really bad group I have gotten.
Sister Vanity knows if you've been naughty or nice...and heals accordingly.
I really wish some explanation/understanding of how threat/aggro system works in this game, in my tank, even when I'm top dps (that mean the most damage dealt to mobs then the biggest threat made should be from me, at least in all MMO's I've seen so far), and with threat increase skills(threatning rush that marks all enemies, along with the 100% increase threat class feature) that still means nothing...I can't hold aggro...my aoe taunt is pretty much not working or im doing it wrong (i click it...don't know how else to do it lol), the mobs look at me and then ignore me
But apparently that problem is not only with me, I've looking at the GF threads and a lot of ppl complaining about it too, so don't know if we are all doing something wrong or there really is an issue in the threat/aggro system atm.
Why are people complaining about threat? Not every game has to be easy. The monsters in this game are smart and go for the healer, and people are still beating the top dungeons, so what's to complain about?
Playing a cleric in this game is playing both a healer and tank that can only tank by kiting. Playing a GF is worthless because it's playing a tank that can't tank or do anything else for that matter.
Here's how it goes for most MMOs. You stand back and spam a couple of abilities or many, watch tv. The tank grabs the boss/adds hits a few buttons and turns them away from the group. The DPS stares at their DPS meter. Healer heals the tank and the DPS best not get hit.
Here's how it should work from what I've seen and played of Epics in Neverwinter. Everyone should have some escape clause or build that will add survivability to their role. Look at damage taken by hitting "X' and see what's happening there. Second, controlling classes need to actually control. Far too often I see people focusing solely on burning the boss down. Unless the boss is just about to die, ignore adds and burn down the boss should not even be a phrase you understand in this game. Groups also need to work together burning down the toughest adds first and push/pull those adds away from the tank and boss. There's a high probability that the boss will switch targets. Everyone needs to adjust and let that tank get back in there. Divine Clerics will not be able to heal through all the mechanics that the boss will spit out. Controllers/Strikers need to move. I've seen plenty 'eat it' to get that extra push of DPS.
When the DC gets aggro, the controllers need to assist. Get those mobs off the cleric and burn them down. More than one person should be burning down a single add. Don't split your DPS on multiple targets. Burn one together and move to the next ASAP. Work together. I feel bad for the Clerics and the Tanks because often it's not their fault with wipes. It's not one person's fault actually. Not working together is a major culprit as to why parties fail.
0
frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I have every single point pumped into threat deduction that I can but because I am still learning and probably have made spec mistakes, I am struggling to keep myself alive. I don't know if it's dps ignoring adds, tank letting adds run free or what, but it's painful. It's hard to be a battle healer + tank. In other news, I got my special slide movement down pat, but it's just something else to stress about when the boss + the adds decide I am more interesting than the tank and dps.
I have ZERO and never keep smooth on my bar. IMO this is a huge waste of points. Now I'm not saying everyone has to have the same cookie cutter cleric build, however, the way the game is designed, this new cleric is meant to generate and live through agro. People are trying to play this cleric as they've always played a cleric. It simply won't work well. and because of this, I am loving it. This cleric reminds me of wizards in most games, and as such, people used to playing such classes are loving this cleric. Those who are used to the "old cleric" playing are getting creamed.
Focus on damage mitigation, healing effects, and action point gain.
just my 2cents from a level 60 cleric who is having a blast. literally
if only groups worked like this, in reality maybe 5% of them do. Most of the time everybody gets tunnel vision and tries to nuke the boss...
Can you blame them, though? Every boss seems to spawn endless adds... until he dies, so why bother fighting the adds when more will just take their place from that bottomless bucket of monsters? It makes more sense to just burn down the boss ASAP and ignore the adds. When the boss dies (in most fights, at least) the adds literally vanish into thin air. It's a goofy mechanic if you ask me, but Cryptic seems to use it in 99% of boss fights.
And then people would scream because the game would be really too easy, with clerics clearly OP and doing everything: dps, control and tanking. Healing yourself means you can tank as much as you want. No thank you.
Heals HAVE TO generate a lot of aggro, otherwise bosses and adds would just OS guardian fighers (they are resilient but not that much) while clerics would just sit in a corner tossing heals like bots. I have fun kiting, healing as much as i can when i have 2 seconds to do it between two red circles on the ground, with the guardian or the wizard to cover my ***.
I know it means the game is offering a challenge but that's what many people here are looking for. If you can't stand it then there are easier difficulty levels.
Then improve the penalty to monsters who abandon the marks from guardian fighters. In actual 4E D&D fighters marks could be ignored too, they weren't an absolute superglue taunt like WoW, but the penalties for attacking someone else and moving past the fighter to his cleric, wizard, or rogue friends were significant. Fighters could opportunity attack the hell out of anything that ran past them within range and end these enemies' movement, so maybe a stun or slow for mobs peeling off the fighter would be appropriate? As well, any attack that didn't include the fighter in it by a marked creature would provoke an immediate attack from the fighter. Fighters didn't glue mobs to them, but they punished them severely for moving or attacking away from them. They should do something similar here. That way you can still have cleric aggro to manage, but the class whose role is DEFENDER can actually feel like they are pulling it off.
The reason I suggested the changes in healing values was because in Neverwinter they didn't opt for the Battle Cleric from 4e, which is the one that smites stuff with a morningstar and buffs attack and str, they chose the Devoted "Laser" Cleric, who uses radiant damaging abilities and is a potent healer. As such, the heals feel a bit low relative to what potions can do, character health pools, and the amount of damage mobs can dish out.
I don't think I've seen anyone actually playing as a controller. Every group seems to just be trying DPS as hard as possible while my poor halfling cleric has to solo the adds. Clerics are HAMSTER so it seems to always work out okay but it's rough.
It makes me want to play a Control Wizard that specs for crowd control just to see why people aren't doing it.
I am a level 54 Cleric at present,and a casual MMO player,just build what I like without a clue,don't look **** up,just go with what feels right to me.And I am getting through all the solo dungeons by myself without dying 99% of the time.I am like a nutter on the keyboard zig zagging my little Halfling about like he has fleas down his pants.I let out a phew when I step out that dungeon I can tell you.
I don't think I've seen anyone actually playing as a controller. Every group seems to just be trying DPS as hard as possible while my poor halfling cleric has to solo the adds. Clerics are HAMSTER so it seems to always work out okay but it's rough.
It makes me want to play a Control Wizard that specs for crowd control just to see why people aren't doing it.
It's because it's more trouble than it's worth and doesn't work well. Just like trying to tank adds on a GF is more trouble than it's worth.
This game has one encounter strategy: cleric kites everything but the boss while healing everybody while everyone else just dpses the boss and dodges the impossible to miss red circles. This is the best strategy in 99% of encounters in the game. Just like 2 clerics, 2 rogues +whatever is the best group for 99% of encounters in the game.
Can you blame them, though? Every boss seems to spawn endless adds... until he dies, so why bother fighting the adds when more will just take their place from that bottomless bucket of monsters?
Because maybe the adds are tied to how much health the boss has?
I am very sorry that alot of you are having trouble with your cleric. Yes, the threat either is intended the way they wanted it, and you better get used to Cleric being a difficult class to master, or it definately needs fixing. Either way, it is making me a master at Cleric'ing, and I have zero complaints. My suggestion is to read up on some differant builds, "Deistik"(sp?) has a very good one, watch some videos of clerics doing dungeons, learn some ****, ask some clerics some questions.
I for one am having a blast playing my cleric. It is "very" rare people in my group are drinking potions, even on boss fights in T2's. Cleric is an absolute Beast class, I think most of you just need some more training
Playing a cleric in this game is playing both a healer and tank that can only tank by kiting. Playing a GF is worthless because it's playing a tank that can't tank or do anything else for that matter.
Oh it is. It's a lot easier to play with a GF when you're a healer, if the GF helps you dealing with adds. You may not be noticing it but a good tank makes a difference from the cleric point of view. I your tank is dumb then the encounter is a hell. I don't know how and why, it's just my little cleric experience.
Support and especially punching bags classes are ungrateful roles to play but it's a necessity.
Comments
When I solo with my cleric companion they do the same thing. I would charge in and they all head straight for her before she even does anything. Even the mobs I`ve hit/marked will make a beeline for her. Aggro and threat are touchy in this game and varies from instance to instance. Sometimes I can hold agro on multiple mobs while other times I cannot. It is never reliable except on bosses for the most part. Sometimes I can never get aggro no matter what I do and It feels pointless to even try. But this is where cc comes into the picture to make up for the lack of reliable taunting and some classes getting more agro then others.
this is the reason why i solo with a man at arms and not with a cleric. Man at arms is better, till now i never die soloing, he is able to hold the aggro for me and even in most critical situations i'm able to heal myself and survive. having the cleric that attract even more aggro is a bad idea because she heals you not that good and as dps doesn't do so much a good job.
No it's not.
The aggro is broken, anyone who spent enough time in the game knows this!
It was fixed a bit in BWE3 where it was even worse..
Toons:
New: CW Level 60
GF = Level 60
DC = Level 60
TR = Level 60
And then people would scream because the game would be really too easy, with clerics clearly OP and doing everything: dps, control and tanking. Healing yourself means you can tank as much as you want. No thank you.
Heals HAVE TO generate a lot of aggro, otherwise bosses and adds would just OS guardian fighers (they are resilient but not that much) while clerics would just sit in a corner tossing heals like bots. I have fun kiting, healing as much as i can when i have 2 seconds to do it between two red circles on the ground, with the guardian or the wizard to cover my ***.
I know it means the game is offering a challenge but that's what many people here are looking for. If you can't stand it then there are easier difficulty levels.
If GF gets the ability to pick up aggro on any mob, even on boss fights, they would have to change the Guard. In boss fights it just does not seem like it's intended to be able to keep the guard up with boss AND mobs hitting you.
man really?? :O
Then what is your role if the cleric must tank 50 adds while you concentrate on holding ONE boss?
I had a good laugh right now, ya know
if only groups worked like this, in reality maybe 5% of them do. Most of the time everybody gets tunnel vision and tries to nuke the boss, if they die or the group wipes, it's obviously the healers fault, ya know the cleric thats running around and being chased by every mob in the room and waving his hands in the air, screaming like a little girl with spiders in her hair >-<
I discovered this yesterday in Cloak tower and didn't have issue I think I hit one potion the entire dungeon usually my dps noticed and came right over and allowed me to dps down and heal up both myself and party. I think I didn't even have a point in sooth yet.
I don't actually have problem with this it makes the class more fun to play in my opinion because you can't just stand and heal you have to be reactive and can heal and dmg at the same time. I actually am loving the cleric style both solo and party because it plays different based on situation
Character handle:@skylia120410
(www.gwfnw.weebly.com)
GWF GUIDE SITE: Still being worked on not 60 yet
Divine Misfits (one of the Guild Leaders)(Guild Site Manager)
www.divinemisfits.guildlaunch.com
...OR you can simply ping pong threat between TR's/GWF's, while dodging attacks, because a guardian isn't essential ? (he is useful but nowhere near irreplacable). Clerics ARE the tanks, the way things work at the moment, the tanks of the...kitting type.
Either that or have the cleric do a Benny Hill, running around in circles, gathering adds, while CW's/GWF's burn (certain) adds down and the rogues focus on the boss. The basic principle remains the same and it's what happens when you design your so called challenging content, for the most part if not exclusively, around horde type of fights (which are fun up to the point that you discover that almost every fight is the same). While kitting is a valid strategy, it has been done before and it's nothing special or particularly challenging, once you get the hang of the mechanics. What is wrong with variety I wonder. Let's say have the tank hold some of the mobs down, maybe control or interrupt a few others, split the dps and control accordingly and have the cleric provide buffs and healing and still punish him for mistakes, while also having your chaotic horde fights ?
What worked well before for my group, was that you should let a tank go in first, build a bit of aggro. If clerics get agro, run away(you can run around in a small circle, works really well), but stick near the group so its easier for them to start pounding and trying to remove the mobs off ya. If you run away from the group, then your teammates are really gonna have a hard time chasing and attacking the mobs running after ya.
This added to the insanelly high amount of adds every boss enconter spawns, leads to clerics doing more tanking than the tanks.
It was depressing. I gave the group several tries before finally dropping with the excuse "I don't think that this group has the coordination required for the encounter."
I will be glad when I find a guild that meets my requirements so that pick up groups are a thing of the past, though, this was the first really bad group I have gotten.
But apparently that problem is not only with me, I've looking at the GF threads and a lot of ppl complaining about it too, so don't know if we are all doing something wrong or there really is an issue in the threat/aggro system atm.
Here's how it goes for most MMOs. You stand back and spam a couple of abilities or many, watch tv. The tank grabs the boss/adds hits a few buttons and turns them away from the group. The DPS stares at their DPS meter. Healer heals the tank and the DPS best not get hit.
Here's how it should work from what I've seen and played of Epics in Neverwinter. Everyone should have some escape clause or build that will add survivability to their role. Look at damage taken by hitting "X' and see what's happening there. Second, controlling classes need to actually control. Far too often I see people focusing solely on burning the boss down. Unless the boss is just about to die, ignore adds and burn down the boss should not even be a phrase you understand in this game. Groups also need to work together burning down the toughest adds first and push/pull those adds away from the tank and boss. There's a high probability that the boss will switch targets. Everyone needs to adjust and let that tank get back in there. Divine Clerics will not be able to heal through all the mechanics that the boss will spit out. Controllers/Strikers need to move. I've seen plenty 'eat it' to get that extra push of DPS.
When the DC gets aggro, the controllers need to assist. Get those mobs off the cleric and burn them down. More than one person should be burning down a single add. Don't split your DPS on multiple targets. Burn one together and move to the next ASAP. Work together. I feel bad for the Clerics and the Tanks because often it's not their fault with wipes. It's not one person's fault actually. Not working together is a major culprit as to why parties fail.
I have ZERO and never keep smooth on my bar. IMO this is a huge waste of points. Now I'm not saying everyone has to have the same cookie cutter cleric build, however, the way the game is designed, this new cleric is meant to generate and live through agro. People are trying to play this cleric as they've always played a cleric. It simply won't work well. and because of this, I am loving it. This cleric reminds me of wizards in most games, and as such, people used to playing such classes are loving this cleric. Those who are used to the "old cleric" playing are getting creamed.
Focus on damage mitigation, healing effects, and action point gain.
just my 2cents from a level 60 cleric who is having a blast. literally
Can you blame them, though? Every boss seems to spawn endless adds... until he dies, so why bother fighting the adds when more will just take their place from that bottomless bucket of monsters? It makes more sense to just burn down the boss ASAP and ignore the adds. When the boss dies (in most fights, at least) the adds literally vanish into thin air. It's a goofy mechanic if you ask me, but Cryptic seems to use it in 99% of boss fights.
Then improve the penalty to monsters who abandon the marks from guardian fighters. In actual 4E D&D fighters marks could be ignored too, they weren't an absolute superglue taunt like WoW, but the penalties for attacking someone else and moving past the fighter to his cleric, wizard, or rogue friends were significant. Fighters could opportunity attack the hell out of anything that ran past them within range and end these enemies' movement, so maybe a stun or slow for mobs peeling off the fighter would be appropriate? As well, any attack that didn't include the fighter in it by a marked creature would provoke an immediate attack from the fighter. Fighters didn't glue mobs to them, but they punished them severely for moving or attacking away from them. They should do something similar here. That way you can still have cleric aggro to manage, but the class whose role is DEFENDER can actually feel like they are pulling it off.
The reason I suggested the changes in healing values was because in Neverwinter they didn't opt for the Battle Cleric from 4e, which is the one that smites stuff with a morningstar and buffs attack and str, they chose the Devoted "Laser" Cleric, who uses radiant damaging abilities and is a potent healer. As such, the heals feel a bit low relative to what potions can do, character health pools, and the amount of damage mobs can dish out.
It makes me want to play a Control Wizard that specs for crowd control just to see why people aren't doing it.
It's because it's more trouble than it's worth and doesn't work well. Just like trying to tank adds on a GF is more trouble than it's worth.
This game has one encounter strategy: cleric kites everything but the boss while healing everybody while everyone else just dpses the boss and dodges the impossible to miss red circles. This is the best strategy in 99% of encounters in the game. Just like 2 clerics, 2 rogues +whatever is the best group for 99% of encounters in the game.
Because maybe the adds are tied to how much health the boss has?
I for one am having a blast playing my cleric. It is "very" rare people in my group are drinking potions, even on boss fights in T2's. Cleric is an absolute Beast class, I think most of you just need some more training
because they're use to playing other MMOs where CC isn't a viable role.
Oh it is. It's a lot easier to play with a GF when you're a healer, if the GF helps you dealing with adds. You may not be noticing it but a good tank makes a difference from the cleric point of view. I your tank is dumb then the encounter is a hell. I don't know how and why, it's just my little cleric experience.
Support and especially punching bags classes are ungrateful roles to play but it's a necessity.