- Gear like a tank. Or at least like an offtank -- you *are* going to tank adds, and you can't heal yourself through it without significant damage mitigation.
- Use Astral Shield. That's your primary heal, and it better be up (in divinity mode) 100% of the time in dangerous fights. You probably want a second slot dedicated to a backup heal, as well. Healing Word is very popular. I prefer Forgemaster's Flame.
- Find groups that don't suck. If the DPS tunnel-visions the boss, it doesn't matter how skilled the healer and tank are. You'll wipe. So, similar to many MMO's, you need a guild or at least a robust friends list, so you can play with competent peers
I think heal aggro is broken. Either that, or Cryptic decided to mimic PvP in their dungeons. Nevertheless, you can deal with it and still heal a party through content, if you approach it the right way.
I am not sure if this has been posted I was a little bit lazy to check,
If you unequip all your gear then reequip it you will NOT have this aggro problem, yes you have to do it every time you enter a Skirmish/Instance and yes its probably not working as intended with the aggro regen but its a suitably easy work around for you.
I think heal aggro is broken. Either that, or Cryptic decided to mimic PvP in their dungeons. Nevertheless, you can deal with it and still heal a party through content, if you approach it the right way.
I heard its a bug, it's explained in cleric forums, that you have to remove your gear before casting something and then put it back...something like that :P
The cleric aggro is a big off it seems, but it's also your group that needs work. It makes sense though that mobs would go for the healers, it's a smart tactic, and what players would do. Get rid of the healer so the fight is shorter. Other players and even the cleric should be aware of the situation and kill mobs that go for them. This isn't a game where the healer sits in the back and tosses heals out, not worrying about mobs or anything. You should be in the heat of the battle, it's why you wear heavier armor. There is a great video a cleric running with a group basically healing and off tanking, it's awesome.
that works for every thing but boss fight's where there are constant "re-spawns". The mobs spawn, have no aggro table, tank is on boss, mobs eat cleric. Even if the tank and the rest of the grp. kill the adds, there still another one coming, then another wave, then another.... you see where i'm going here? The question isn't "is there a problem with aggro and aggro management?", there is and everybody knows it, it's still beta and thats where things get fixed/tweaked. So what the real question is , is "will they do anything about it?" Personally i think they need to add a "aggro dump" to clerics, give it a long cooldown 3-5 min. this would go a long way to helping.
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healurownbumMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited May 2013
Now im not 60 yet, im nearly 50 and i have found out i do better in dungeons with 2 CW and just some dps then having a Guard around i can keep the party up nearly as easily but stuff goes down faster and there is more CC. Making me have to kite less.
But for so far i kinda hate playing cleric cause im kiting constantly, makes me wanna dps even more.
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mach242Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited May 2013
I noticed the agro problem at level 12 with my cleric in the very first instance/group situation you run across in Tower. Doesn't matter what the boss is doing, the tanks are doing, or the dps is doing -- a single heal cast toward someone @ half health and ALL the strong adds run 50 feet out of the way of everyone else and hit me. I know that at this stage nobody (well most) knows what they're doing, how to communicate, or how to act in group mode as opposed to solo. But still... all the adds shouldn't react that strongly to the weak heals I put out at that stage.
I get it that they don't want heal-bots. I really do, and I support that decision. But juicing up heal agro to this degree is ridiculous.
Could be cleric heal threat is too high, tank threat generation too low, tank not specced for threat generation, healer not given threat reduction feats to choose, GWF who are supposed to be trash/add tanks who are not or can not or will not do their group role, etc. Your thread title, Clerics almost useless, is completely incorrect...
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frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Clerics aren't useless... they're actually required and OP as f*ck. 2 Clerics are nearly unkillable in PvP and PvE.
The aggro system in Neverwinter is horrible so you need to kite around as Cleric 24/7, even with a great Guardian.
THIS
Game is less than two weeks old and people are already complaining about classes. What this really points out is the disparity between good players and poor players.
I love my level 60 cleric. I'm constantly getting Guild invites after doing dungeons and pvp. Even in a crappy groups, as long as I have targets to hit, I'm almost in non stop god-mode. I'm sorry, but people need to learn to read spell descriptions, feat and paragon descriptions.
There is nothing wrong with the cleric.
I take that back. There is something wrong with the cleric. I want a MACE !!!! TY
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uriah65Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I agree with frost168. Game is too new to say one class or another is good, bad, etc. Maybe instead of coming to the forums and whining, spend a little more time learning how to play your class, and all aspects of it, and how to interact with other classes. The ME NOW generation needs to STFU. Just because this game is not identical to the last game you played, or how YOU think it should be, doesn't mean it's bad OR broken. Personally, I love my Cleric, wouldn't trade him for any other class.
Clerics are fine atm, just the aggro issue with tanks needs to be somewhat sorted out. And with the above comments of getting used to kiting 24/7, so true. Get used to it. So far, cryptics design of "difficult encounters" are stale, as they just throw as many mobs at u since they havent really designed new boss mechanics.
Your problem is not that cleric's are bad, its that the Tank and DPS your running with are bad ....
No, this isn`t true. Clerics generate probably the most aggro out of everyone in the group. As a lvl 60 guardian I find holding agro and being able to gain it almost a waste of time in some cases. Even with feats and powers that increase threat 30-60% and spamming rush and stab, the mobs run all over the place and aggro everyone. And even if I did get agro and hold it on all the mobs at once, I would be dead because they would break my guard in seconds. and once I start getting healed I lose the agro and they all go running all over the place again. This game isn`t like traditional mmo`s where the tank absorbs all the damage in a dungeon run. The damage is spread out over the group. Imagine how much easier it would be if my taunts actually worked and held the mobs on me so my group could kill them and nobody else ever got agro. Dungeons would be a piece of cake and there would be much rejoicing.
But this is how they tweak the difficulty to make it challenging. I can hold aggro on a boss pretty well, but on packs of mobs? It don`t work that way you think it does.
Although i agree the threat from heals needs to be adjusted(I'm only a level 50 cleric), my main problem in PUGS is most CW's feel they are the DPS master and just focus the big boss. Before every dungeon i tell the CW that he needs to control the adds or I am going to die very quickly. I can off-tank well but not forever.
Although i agree the threat from heals needs to be adjusted(I'm only a level 50 cleric), my main problem in PUGS is most CW's feel they are the DPS master and just focus the big boss. Before every dungeon i tell the CW that he needs to control the adds or I am going to die very quickly. I can off-tank well but not forever.
I don't bother explaing, i just tell them "if i'm running around-it means i aint healing, if i got mobs on me, i'm healing me and not you"
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ktheriot01Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
I don't bother explaing, i just tell them "if i'm running around-it means i aint healing, if i got mobs on me, i'm healing me and not you"
This! "10 char thingy"
To consider something as truth, we must also consider that the exact opposite is also truth.
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juravianMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 63
edited May 2013
I do agree that the threat needs to be looked at, I think clerics generate way more than they should, and I've noticed some mobs always run right after the cleric, even before they have thrown any spells.
But with that being said...as a Guardian tank, if you plan to group, you need to spec in every piece of threat generation and every bit of recovery that you can.
I can usually hold on to the bosses, and a few of the mobs with "Mark" and "AOE Taunt". They sometimes break off and go after the healer, but I can usually at least get the boss back.
I think one of the problems of the OP is that his expectation of the role of a cleric. In MMOs, cleric is usually a sub-game of wack-a-mole with a UI enhancing macro where you dont really have to interract with the fight. The fact that mobs actually aggro clerics over tanks is quite logical natural and even refreshing in an MMO. Why would a monster get all hyped up banging up on the wimp with a shield ... No reason really, unless that guy with the shield is a pain in the ***... But honestly who's the real pain in the *** in the group ... That cleric that keep healing everybody ... and maybe that rogue with the pointy thing ... One of the most pleasurable aspects of the game atm is that 1. You rarely NEED a tank since fatal attacks can usually be dodged and 2. No one can sit his *** in the back and mash a single button the whole fight without moving ... Every one will get aggro from time to time from adds at least. 3. CC is actually usefull since there is creature that cant be aggroed by the tank and that beeline for the cleric ... An we come down to cleric usefullness ... if you PVPed you have most likely seen that a group with a cleric wins over a group without cleric. In PVE a group wont start an instance without cleric but they will if any other class is missing. That says a lot toward demonstrating that cleric are not only usefull they are needed.
I have every single point pumped into threat deduction that I can but because I am still learning and probably have made spec mistakes, I am struggling to keep myself alive. I don't know if it's dps ignoring adds, tank letting adds run free or what, but it's painful. It's hard to be a battle healer + tank. In other news, I got my special slide movement down pat, but it's just something else to stress about when the boss + the adds decide I am more interesting than the tank and dps.
Sister Vanity knows if you've been naughty or nice...and heals accordingly.
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rdykattenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited May 2013
As a Guardian Fighter, I often find myself getting too much aggro that I can actually handle. There's been boss fights where I accidentally managed to get the aggro of just about every single mob plus the boss, despite the DC healing me.
At the moment, I don't think anything is really wrong - perhaps some fine-tuning is needed, but really, it's all about proper micromanagement and knowing your class. I have had clerics that will suddenly take everything but the boss, I have had clerics that don't attract anything.
The best I can tell you is that the most successful boss fights I have had were, without fail, the ones where I tunnel vision on the boss and I see no one else around the boss for the greater part of ten minutes.
Clerics work great. up to lvl 54 and only had one issue in that dungeon with the green dragon. But thats cuz noone helped with adds.
I can kite and knockback adds until the dps or cws can get them. Just dont lay down aoe heals for a litle bit and aggro subsides. Its a fun class and you have to be on your toes.
And yes 2 Clerics in a dungeon is god mode. no tank required, just lots of kiting.
If heals generate no aggro, then the cleric is just a heal bot sitting in a quiet corner of the map. That's definitely not funny to play. If you have a good guardian fighter and a good control wizard then that's a lot easier. I've seen some guardians keeping the aggro on several tough adds. I don't know how they do that but when your team members does their share of the job then you are extremely useful.
My personal favourite group to run with - 2 clerics and 3 dps (pref 2 wizards 1 rogue) wiz for aoe/cc and rogue to purely to focus said boss, i hear that the cleric circles stack? anyways, that combo's pretty gg.
Recommended cleric fixes: Remove the 40% healing self debuff (Righteousness) it is silly. Improve the value on Cleric heals across the board, maybe 30%-40% improved, and lastly fix the aggro issues, both for how much clerics pull and how little GF's pull. My 2 cents.
I think one of the problems of the OP is that his expectation of the role of a cleric. In MMOs, cleric is usually a sub-game of wack-a-mole with a UI enhancing macro where you dont really have to interract with the fight. The fact that mobs actually aggro clerics over tanks is quite logical natural and even refreshing in an MMO. Why would a monster get all hyped up banging up on the wimp with a shield ... No reason really, unless that guy with the shield is a pain in the ***... But honestly who's the real pain in the *** in the group ... That cleric that keep healing everybody ... and maybe that rogue with the pointy thing ... One of the most pleasurable aspects of the game atm is that 1. You rarely NEED a tank since fatal attacks can usually be dodged and 2. No one can sit his *** in the back and mash a single button the whole fight without moving ... Every one will get aggro from time to time from adds at least. 3. CC is actually usefull since there is creature that cant be aggroed by the tank and that beeline for the cleric ... An we come down to cleric usefullness ... if you PVPed you have most likely seen that a group with a cleric wins over a group without cleric. In PVE a group wont start an instance without cleric but they will if any other class is missing. That says a lot toward demonstrating that cleric are not only usefull they are needed.
while i understand your premiss, and some what agree with it. The problem is when "engaging" a pack of mobs ( let's say some elites or a boss encounter), there will be several mobs that go straight to the cleric before anything has been touched/hit or cc'd. This would suggest that there is some sort of "residual" threat still present and that clerics are "going into a fight" with aggro already stacked on them. This cannot be "working as intended" as it does put clerics at a marked dis-advantage and makes the entire group start with "2 strikes" against them, so to speak.
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asakochanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
I myself, done like 10 times the mad dragon lair instance before i outleveled it and i could finished the last boss only 2 times.
I don't have a guild, nor a static group of friends to play with so i always had to rely on PUG teams.
The first time i queued up for mad dragon i was lucky enough to get an awesome team. I was only lvl 30 at the time and i was unaware of how hard that instance could be for a cleric, though the tank that was 2 lvls higher than me was great at what he was doing and he could hold the aggro of the boss while the rest of the team members was focusing on the adds. We failed the first attempt because we didn't expected to see that mess of shietload of adds from the dragon, we were all on our first attempt on that instance, but once we figured what everyone had to do, we rocked it out. And the drops was pretty nice as we done that during DD.
Too bad this didn't happened with every team i went in after that. People don't listen and some tanks should never pick their class as tank. When i leveled up and i had to do grey wolf boss, that has same mechanics as mad dragon, the first time i went in the tank was dieing before i was able to put a seal on the boss or cast a heal. On the third attempt he survived, but not because he used block or any of his skills but because he was jumping and running around while the dps people was focusing on boss and adds. I was dieing all the time and i had a darn hard time on that instance.
So yea as cleric i find myself useless so many times that i regret sometimes i picked this class. I hate being dead and see the people starting to pop potions to survive and killing the boss while i'm watching at everything behind the purple wall of shame.
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asakochanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
while i understand your premiss, and some what agree with it. The problem is when "engaging" a pack of mobs ( let's say some elites or a boss encounter), there will be several mobs that go straight to the cleric before anything has been touched/hit or cc'd. This would suggest that there is some sort of "residual" threat still present and that clerics are "going into a fight" with aggro already stacked on them. This cannot be "working as intended" as it does put clerics at a marked dis-advantage and makes the entire group start with "2 strikes" against them, so to speak.
the mobs will aggro us even if we don't cast any skill because we have the regen active all the time and that attract mobs even if we are in passive mode.
What I have noticed so far, and there not game killers, just need to be addressed... Tank class is lacking for sure, mind you its not totally broken, but needs to be examined and some changes made to ensure if you build to tank, then thats what you are good for. Healers need to be alos addressed and examined and then fix the issue with pulling aggro off any tanks... not that it shouldn't happen, but I have noticed it seems to always happen. I'm constantly running to go pull mobs off a healer, and thats not how it should be IMO. I don't want them to make a healer stand out there and do nothing or worry he may pull off a tank, that needs to be addressed like in all MMOs, I'm still new at NW, so my opinion is like well you know that other end of you.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Sir, were now surrounded"!
Thats great news son, now we can attack from ALL sides"!
I have run with 3 clerics in a T2. It is the only time I completed one with no deaths. They need to change up the threat and take away the self healing penalty. If you need two clerics part of that is because we can not heal ourselves as effectively. If we were healed the same as our group members it would even out our need to kite and take hits. Right now I receive the most threat even with my pre-made group all working to help me. Healing myself for 40% less sucks. As it stands I use more health stones and pots than anyone in my group. Make us the tanks... nerf our healing on ourselves. BRILLIANT! :P
Comments
- Gear like a tank. Or at least like an offtank -- you *are* going to tank adds, and you can't heal yourself through it without significant damage mitigation.
- Use Astral Shield. That's your primary heal, and it better be up (in divinity mode) 100% of the time in dangerous fights. You probably want a second slot dedicated to a backup heal, as well. Healing Word is very popular. I prefer Forgemaster's Flame.
- Find groups that don't suck. If the DPS tunnel-visions the boss, it doesn't matter how skilled the healer and tank are. You'll wipe. So, similar to many MMO's, you need a guild or at least a robust friends list, so you can play with competent peers
I think heal aggro is broken. Either that, or Cryptic decided to mimic PvP in their dungeons. Nevertheless, you can deal with it and still heal a party through content, if you approach it the right way.
If you unequip all your gear then reequip it you will NOT have this aggro problem, yes you have to do it every time you enter a Skirmish/Instance and yes its probably not working as intended with the aggro regen but its a suitably easy work around for you.
o/
I heard its a bug, it's explained in cleric forums, that you have to remove your gear before casting something and then put it back...something like that :P
that works for every thing but boss fight's where there are constant "re-spawns". The mobs spawn, have no aggro table, tank is on boss, mobs eat cleric. Even if the tank and the rest of the grp. kill the adds, there still another one coming, then another wave, then another.... you see where i'm going here? The question isn't "is there a problem with aggro and aggro management?", there is and everybody knows it, it's still beta and thats where things get fixed/tweaked. So what the real question is , is "will they do anything about it?" Personally i think they need to add a "aggro dump" to clerics, give it a long cooldown 3-5 min. this would go a long way to helping.
But for so far i kinda hate playing cleric cause im kiting constantly, makes me wanna dps even more.
I get it that they don't want heal-bots. I really do, and I support that decision. But juicing up heal agro to this degree is ridiculous.
THIS
Game is less than two weeks old and people are already complaining about classes. What this really points out is the disparity between good players and poor players.
I love my level 60 cleric. I'm constantly getting Guild invites after doing dungeons and pvp. Even in a crappy groups, as long as I have targets to hit, I'm almost in non stop god-mode. I'm sorry, but people need to learn to read spell descriptions, feat and paragon descriptions.
There is nothing wrong with the cleric.
I take that back. There is something wrong with the cleric. I want a MACE !!!!
No, this isn`t true. Clerics generate probably the most aggro out of everyone in the group. As a lvl 60 guardian I find holding agro and being able to gain it almost a waste of time in some cases. Even with feats and powers that increase threat 30-60% and spamming rush and stab, the mobs run all over the place and aggro everyone. And even if I did get agro and hold it on all the mobs at once, I would be dead because they would break my guard in seconds. and once I start getting healed I lose the agro and they all go running all over the place again. This game isn`t like traditional mmo`s where the tank absorbs all the damage in a dungeon run. The damage is spread out over the group. Imagine how much easier it would be if my taunts actually worked and held the mobs on me so my group could kill them and nobody else ever got agro. Dungeons would be a piece of cake and there would be much rejoicing.
But this is how they tweak the difficulty to make it challenging. I can hold aggro on a boss pretty well, but on packs of mobs? It don`t work that way you think it does.
This! "10 char thingy"
But with that being said...as a Guardian tank, if you plan to group, you need to spec in every piece of threat generation and every bit of recovery that you can.
I can usually hold on to the bosses, and a few of the mobs with "Mark" and "AOE Taunt". They sometimes break off and go after the healer, but I can usually at least get the boss back.
At the moment, I don't think anything is really wrong - perhaps some fine-tuning is needed, but really, it's all about proper micromanagement and knowing your class. I have had clerics that will suddenly take everything but the boss, I have had clerics that don't attract anything.
The best I can tell you is that the most successful boss fights I have had were, without fail, the ones where I tunnel vision on the boss and I see no one else around the boss for the greater part of ten minutes.
I can kite and knockback adds until the dps or cws can get them. Just dont lay down aoe heals for a litle bit and aggro subsides. Its a fun class and you have to be on your toes.
And yes 2 Clerics in a dungeon is god mode. no tank required, just lots of kiting.
while i understand your premiss, and some what agree with it. The problem is when "engaging" a pack of mobs ( let's say some elites or a boss encounter), there will be several mobs that go straight to the cleric before anything has been touched/hit or cc'd. This would suggest that there is some sort of "residual" threat still present and that clerics are "going into a fight" with aggro already stacked on them. This cannot be "working as intended" as it does put clerics at a marked dis-advantage and makes the entire group start with "2 strikes" against them, so to speak.
I don't have a guild, nor a static group of friends to play with so i always had to rely on PUG teams.
The first time i queued up for mad dragon i was lucky enough to get an awesome team. I was only lvl 30 at the time and i was unaware of how hard that instance could be for a cleric, though the tank that was 2 lvls higher than me was great at what he was doing and he could hold the aggro of the boss while the rest of the team members was focusing on the adds. We failed the first attempt because we didn't expected to see that mess of shietload of adds from the dragon, we were all on our first attempt on that instance, but once we figured what everyone had to do, we rocked it out. And the drops was pretty nice as we done that during DD.
Too bad this didn't happened with every team i went in after that. People don't listen and some tanks should never pick their class as tank. When i leveled up and i had to do grey wolf boss, that has same mechanics as mad dragon, the first time i went in the tank was dieing before i was able to put a seal on the boss or cast a heal. On the third attempt he survived, but not because he used block or any of his skills but because he was jumping and running around while the dps people was focusing on boss and adds. I was dieing all the time and i had a darn hard time on that instance.
So yea as cleric i find myself useless so many times that i regret sometimes i picked this class. I hate being dead and see the people starting to pop potions to survive and killing the boss while i'm watching at everything behind the purple wall of shame.
the mobs will aggro us even if we don't cast any skill because we have the regen active all the time and that attract mobs even if we are in passive mode.
Which sux!
"Sir, were now surrounded"!
Thats great news son, now we can attack from ALL sides"!