If you are having agro troubles.
-Consider specing for less threat.
-Give the tank and DPS a bit more time ( like 5 seconds ) before you drop heals.
If you have done that, you need a better group. Your heals are either to good and the groups damage is not keeping up or they are not controlling the pulls like they should i.e face roll dps style.
Strat@stratxzz on the Dragon Shard
Strat - Great Weapon Fighter - Level 60 ( Retired for now ) Strattwo - Control Wizard - Level 60 Stratx - Devoted Cleric - Level 60 Stratt - Trickster Rogue - Level 18
http://theeoi.com - Visit for more information on our gaming community.
I am very sorry that alot of you are having trouble with your cleric. Yes, the threat either is intended the way they wanted it, and you better get used to Cleric being a difficult class to master, or it definately needs fixing. Either way, it is making me a master at Cleric'ing, and I have zero complaints. My suggestion is to read up on some differant builds, "Deistik"(sp?) has a very good one, watch some videos of clerics doing dungeons, learn some ****, ask some clerics some questions.
I for one am having a blast playing my cleric. It is "very" rare people in my group are drinking potions, even on boss fights in T2's. Cleric is an absolute Beast class, I think most of you just need some more training
I dunno, the kite everything cleric play is fun the first couple times you do it but it's the same in every encounter and it gets old fast.
If you are having agro troubles.
-Consider specing for less threat.
-Give the tank and DPS a bit more time ( like 5 seconds ) before you drop heals.
If you have done that, you need a better group. Your heals are either to good and the groups damage is not keeping up or they are not controlling the pulls like they should i.e face roll dps style.
If you are having agro troubles.
-Consider specing for less threat.
-Give the tank and DPS a bit more time ( like 5 seconds ) before you drop heals.
If you have done that, you need a better group. Your heals are either to good and the groups damage is not keeping up or they are not controlling the pulls like they should i.e face roll dps style.
Spoken like someone who hasn't actually played the game.
Cleric healing threat vastly outaggros every other form of threat in the game. No matter how you spec and no matter what you do. It has nothing to do with your group. The suggestion of waiting 5 seconds shows you have no idea what you're talking about or what the problem actually is.
The people crying are doing it because the group is not working within the design of the game. They are trying to play this game like it is another game, and complaining that things arent working right. Its the player that is not working right.
My experience with Clerics in this game so far is they load up on every single skill as a healing skill, and spam everything they got all the time. WHY.........................................
Not to mention that every class in the game has survival skills that are required. You dont have a dodge for no reason in this, try using it and other skills that slow and disable, and have teammates that know how to do that stuff.
I dunno, the kite everything cleric play is fun the first couple times you do it but it's the same in every encounter and it gets old fast.
I learn more about my Cleric each time I do a T2. I am having to move less and less each time it seems, and I am utilizing my skills much more effectively then I did in the past. I.E., I didnt give up like a large majority of players saying clerics are useless. My Up-Time on AS is 100%, and I am near 80% Up-Time on hallowed ground, and rocking almost full pips, and I am still having to run obviously. The people hating on clerics just need more practice. Or, sorry have to say it but. Try a new class, I guarantee you the Cleric in class is hands-down the most difficult class to play in this game, and it will probably always be. Cleric isnt for everyone, I for one ****ing love mine, and so do my groups -)
I don't think I've seen anyone actually playing as a controller. Every group seems to just be trying DPS as hard as possible while my poor halfling cleric has to solo the adds. Clerics are HAMSTER so it seems to always work out okay but it's rough.
It makes me want to play a Control Wizard that specs for crowd control just to see why people aren't doing it.
Unless the CW's you have played with are completely ignoring adds for the boss, that is almost impossible. CW's have several hard controls (total incapacitation), but alot of soft controls (push, pull, knock down) built into the powers they dps with. Unless they are only using at will powers, and not RoF which builds a hard stun, then how are they not controlling mobs? I use MM and RoF, MM for dps and debuff/buff with the renegade tree capstone power, ROF for a CC. I use ice knife and chaos storm as my dailies, both of which do hella damage and control (Ice Knife freezes and leaves prone, chaos storm ejects all mobs near me to the target point, great for sending mobs back to the defender or away from me and cleric). I use Endless Avalanche, which has a knock up and leaves prone, Ice Strike which leaves a mob stunned frozen, and Steal Time, an aoe total stun. Mobs barely get a chance to move unless they are immune or missed. My only non-cc pure damage encounter power is Sudden Storm. But there is some form of control on nearly every CW power, so if they are dps'ing, they are controlling too. If they are ignoring adds they are just gimping themselves in damage done, as CW's do best hitting groups with their spells rather than just pwning the boss. My 2 cents.
Just new to game am having fun lvling cleric. Did have bad experience around lvl 30 when daily dungeon was the one with dragon, adds spawn went straight for me and eventually got overrun and died we gave up after few tries and I havnt bothered with 5man since(bad experience).
Reading the Cleric section on forums has anyone tried going nakid and putting gear back to fix threat/sooth?
As a Lv. 60 Cleric I see myself tanking more than anyone in the group. I suppose there is a reason that all my Tier 1/2 gear has defense on it.
For those of you saying the "tank" is bad. There are no class role definitions in this game, it wasn't designed to be that way. The classes available now are specifically designed to where you could roll as 5 rogues, and as long as you bought some health potions you'll probably damage the target down before they will kill you.
If you are having issues staying alive as a Cleric you may want to re-think your Encounters/Passive abilities. Don't always think burst healing when it comes to clerics, think of reducing damage taken and heal over time spells. On Epic Pirate King, I can easily tank all of the adds at the last boss on the ship while my party blows up the boss. I just sit there and heal myself with damage reducing effects and I never kite.
Spoken like someone who hasn't actually played the game.
Cleric healing threat vastly outaggros every other form of threat in the game. No matter how you spec and no matter what you do. It has nothing to do with your group. The suggestion of waiting 5 seconds shows you have no idea what you're talking about or what the problem actually is.
Right, because the cleric I run with in Tier 2 Epic Dungeons complains soooo much about all of the agro.
Waiiiiit a second, there is a Dwarf looking guy, with a shield... Everything is always hitting him... And he is still at full HP.
Strat@stratxzz on the Dragon Shard
Strat - Great Weapon Fighter - Level 60 ( Retired for now ) Strattwo - Control Wizard - Level 60 Stratx - Devoted Cleric - Level 60 Stratt - Trickster Rogue - Level 18
http://theeoi.com - Visit for more information on our gaming community.
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alocer3Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited May 2013
You guys are working with an outdated model from older (well, different) MMOs... ie the holy trinity of tank/dps/healer. Tank holds aggro and dps burns adds while healer keeps everyone alive. Pretty standard.
In this game you have 4 roles. The new one being a controller. In typical fights you have a main boss and numerous adds. The tank holds the main boss... Guardians have the threat generation to hold it if they focus on it. DPS burns boss or adds depending on the strat. Now for the twist... Controllers snare or gather up the adds periodically allowing the healer time to heal self and tank (and others.)
Right now we have one controller that can AOE snare like a champ. Sadly, yes... there are limited fight mechanics because we only have 1 of each role (2 for dps or strikers) so this same playstyle will be used over and over for a bit to "reteach" us and get us used to having 4 roles.
the secret is neither the healer nor the tank, it's the DPS.
I take for now the problem is that most of the player base is maybe too used to the WoW-style (I can only say this from other people's experience, I never personally played WoW)...
I ran into the same problem healing in TOR.
the dps have to attack the little mobs first and get them off of the healer. apparently in world of warcraft the tank was able to aggro 30 mobs. I don't think that is the case in this game. (I am not 60 yet so I can only assume)
also, what alocer3 is talking about, the 'controller' is what ACTUAL 'old school' MMOs used to call a supporter. part of the support role is stunning, slowing and so on. this can be done in this game. people need to start using it.
Just new to game am having fun lvling cleric. Did have bad experience around lvl 30 when daily dungeon was the one with dragon, adds spawn went straight for me and eventually got overrun and died we gave up after few tries and I havnt bothered with 5man since(bad experience).
Reading the Cleric section on forums has anyone tried going nakid and putting gear back to fix threat/sooth?
Mad Dragon is one of the toughest fights leveling up. Go back to the dungeons when you feel up to it. There's not many bosses like that until you get to 60.
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deezilxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 22Arc User
The aggro issue is an issue with both clerics and tanks,
for example, I'm full threat specced tank currently and yet a cleric can get aggro so easily with one spell, even after I mark the mobs.
That seems abnormal, you know?
So, to sum it up,
the tanks need more threat generation and the clerics less threat generation overall.
Not to mention most Clerics don't spec into Soothe and then cry about agro.
Mad Dragon is one of the toughest fights leveling up. Go back to the dungeons when you feel up to it. There's not many bosses like that until you get to 60.
Thanks for a boost , will give next dungeon a try.
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flyingplatypusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
What I'd really enjoy is if the fighter's mark was a bit more like it is in 4e, where rather than making the target more vulnerable to attacks, it makes all of the fighter's allies more resistant to the marked target's attacks.
Speaking as a Control Wizard, here's my priority list in a group:
1) Dodge HAMSTER so I don't need heals
2) Freeze/choke/knockbock AKA Control mobs that are attacking the cleric
3) Control mobs that are attacking anyone else
4) Kill adds, smallest to largest
5) Kill boss
The irony of the tunnel vision control wizard is that, on the big bosses, the majority of the control effects don't work, which makes most of your effort a waste. If all you do is hit the boss, you might as well not be there.
flyingplatypusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
As a level 40 cleric, I run 3 points in soothe, with the only healing I have as FF and Sunburst, and I still pull almost the entire dungeon in a boss fight, with a tank-specc'd guardian fighter.
That's generally all the healing you need. If you use active heals they will draw a lot of aggro and many tanks, GWFs etc dont bother looking around and helping you out.
People learn quick to stand in blue circle of awesome that is astral shield. Those that don't die
agro is very jacked up right now, It blows my mind how they let major things like agro for tanks and a entire class suck so bad for open beta/release.
They can cry coding is hard and they have a deal line but it really doesn't help anything when people start playing and already are looking for other games because these business practices.
Cleric's in this game are just bound to pull aggro by design, even running sooth doesn't help you, you're better off just getting astral shield and use divine power on it.
I am lvl 60 and have had no problem tanking small mobs, it's annoying but I don't actually die. Foresight and the lvl 50 (I forgot it's name) passive that blocks a damage every 60 seconds (40 seconds with rank 3) helps out a lot.
With that being said, cleric's in this game do not wear cloth armor, rather, chain, so it's not like they're squishy to begin with.
Like mentioned before, just run astral shield and tank some adds for your group, it's not that big of a deal.
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beeskiisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
I think the real question here isn't whether a cleric generates too much threat or a GF doesn't generate enough, but why is it that we can't get a boss mechanic other than "spawns a HAMSTER ton of adds"? There are so many others that would test a player's skill, but it seems like Cryptic is just convinced that "spawns a HAMSTER ton of adds" is the way to go for pretty much EVERY BOSS IN THE GAME.
While I understand the healers crying about the crazy amount of aggro they generate, I also agree that it adds to the challenge and is the responsibility of other party members to mitigate. People keep stating that this is to avoid healers becoming "healbots", but then what are the tanks? It completely takes away from the playability of a GF if the only responsibility is to tank one boss. If we were to get some bosses with a new mechanic, the whole game would be a bit more enjoyable for all classes.
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masochist33Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 11Arc User
the secret is neither the healer nor the tank, it's the DPS.
I ran into the same problem healing in TOR.
the dps have to attack the little mobs first and get them off of the healer. apparently in world of warcraft the tank was able to aggro 30 mobs. I don't think that is the case in this game. (I am not 60 yet so I can only assume)
Most definitely...we have a single target striker (TR), and AoE striker (GWF), a tank, a healer, and a controller...
AoE Striker needs to handle adds (single target striker might need to help as well!)
Single target striker sticks to boss/specials
Control Wizard aids with add control (debuffs and/or grouping them up) and switches to DPS when appropriate
Tank holds boss or any other big nasty mob that needs to not be HAMSTER everyone else
Healer...heals and takes advantage of the "aggro problem" by directing groups of enemies to appropriate areas or by clumping them up so they, the AoE striker, and the control wizard can AoE them all at once. The cleric is a "Leader" class for a reason...they have a huge amount of influence over the direction and flow of combat....its not a "victim" class.
If you cant work in DnD as a team then you apparently missed the part where, at its core, this is a team game.
At least on paper (and from what I have done in game so far as a cleric) this seems to work best...obviously a group that coordinate and knows each other better will have a much better time with this composition and find it working better.
Well we've only been saying that for weeks/months now and Cryptic has yet to actually fix anything.
Then again they won't say what they are working on so who knows.
I hate the hush-hush policy; it sucks.
Get a stinking test server and post test patch notes on there.
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voqarMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I haven't got to endgame and the game is still in beta but I did play a cleric ages ago in beta and found the agro to be completely insane.
My brother is playing a cleric now in open and I'm playing a rogue, and he's getting the HAMSTER beat out of him due to heal agro in skirmishes and tower, but it doesn't seem quite as bad as before. Still idiotic amounts of agro, but not as bad.
Maybe it helps that I always switch to the adds/mobs on him and try to reduce the amount of running for his life and potion chugging he has to do.
Anyways, here's another vote for cleric heal agro being stupidly excessive and most importantly, NOT FUN.
In every game, healers usually get aggro. Its a moving class you don't get to sit back and relax. and for those that said if you just cast astral shield you dont get aggro? no way, i've fought bosses and astral shield is godly. but once i put it down, the adds swarms at me. usually you can tank most of the adds for your group while they dps on main boss. But once u hit t2, the adds is not small fry, they hit you almost as hard as boss.
you can tank for 1-3sec then u better get your *** running, otherwise you're on ground licking dirt.
Right, because the cleric I run with in Tier 2 Epic Dungeons complains soooo much about all of the agro.
Waiiiiit a second, there is a Dwarf looking guy, with a shield... Everything is always hitting him... And he is still at full HP.
Again, it's obvious you don't actually play this game, are lying, or don't pay attention at all. The idea that "everything is always hitting" your tank is simply wrong. That isn't how this game works. No matter what. Adds spawned during boss fights cannot all be tanked by the tank. No matter how good the tank is. GF taunts are all target capped and there is mathematically not enough of them to taunt anywhere near all the adds that spawn during most boss fights.
And I'm not saying they necessarily should all be tankable. But you are making claims that simply can't be true.
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sarcon89Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
i have to run the same gimmic of telling dps to stop dps on boss and take out adds when they spawn whenever i run a dungeon. sad thing is the CWs are typically pretty good about adds its the rogues and GWF that just focus on the boss ignoring adds only to produce more adds ultimately causing my death. then have the nerve to say *wtf dodge* while im kiting boss+adds while trying to keep them all alive. That is the very reason why i refuse to PUG anymore as a cleric.
COMMON already~
Aggro is NOT jacked up... Players are... The tank management system does need a revamp tho; the design on marks is counter intuitive to the pace of the fights. (ie impossible to manage) But most tanks are getting smart and going DPS which completely 90% ignores that mechanic... Healing aggro is not because of pulling insane HATE from basic use. Its from people not playing right; or understanding new mobs go for a healer because healing triggers the aggro on them, since no damage was incurred to them as they head to center of fight... Or overuse of heals; probably because the DPS or tank didn't do their job in first place... Which makes the aggro for healer even worse as he spams away to stay alive...
So now we have clerics building more OT or resorting to kiting through fights...
Here's the book: (Im not master of writing.)
Tanks do have the ability to AoE aggro even a charge that has an Aoe Taunt. (still marks are poorly thought out; mainly because of the pace of the fights)
What the issue is (well one of) is that since most boss fights have tons of adds; when these new adds pop the first thing they do is B line for the healer. They are at zero aggro; and no one's attacking them so the heals trigger them right away to aggro Cleric. Now its often a lil chaotic and the fact mobs surround you rather then stack (in most cases) this put things at even more disadvantage for tank.
(His marks for example will drop if hit from offside of shield or not blocking. But holding block would run him out of blocking ability. (Its a juggle)
I say this because some tanks will run around chaotically; leaving the boss for example and either didn't have enough aggro or DPS screw it up; while he rushes to grab new pack. Often you cant get them all before heal picks up fresh adds because they come in packs from across each other. So its inevitable that one or 2 packs will reach the cleric. Clerics then run around like on fire because they have to; each spammed heal creating more aggro...
Options are either Tank sticks to Boss (if its that kind of fight) and the DPS engage the adds as they pop up. So to keep the healer free. Or (if elites) are in packs bring them to Tank. OR let the tank just focus on grabbing the Elites himself with Mark then Peeling it from the Adds as the DPS clean it up. The healer never need worry then... A dps hitting the adds will easily peel or prevent the mobs from engaging the Cleric if start right away.
Another option which is used is in some cases; the Cleric simply kites the adds intentionally; Lots of Clerics have gone with a tankier build.
You can keep the Tank and TR on boss; let the GWF or CW destroy the packs... (TR doesn't have to; fights just quicker this way)
Lots of options really. So in the end it comes down to the DPS in this game. They have to equally be aware for healer...
And problem solved regardless of tanks build.
All in all I realized last night that its just a lot of sloppy players who tell you you don't need tanks. They only use them in the last of the elite dungeons and even then have gotten such bad habits it can be a pain for healer and tank.
You can as in any other game put your back to a wall and for the most part the mobs backs to players (encouraging extra dmg all the time from the buff that way...) Just no one wants to; and most tanks have been forced into running the DPS hybrid build now.
Which is both good and bad thing. Of coarse the fact respec is costly would be the number one reason why.
I have zero issues with aggro; tanks not holding aggro is a myth; its just bad players. Not even have to be the tank; just bad party. (Rush types).
So again this has lead to things like Cleric just kiting, or DPS Tanks (because they (tank) can do more damage then even TR (content pending). They can forgo the broken mark system because their DPS alone will hold aggro. They then simply move around the field "controlling specific mobs or boss" without anyone really giving them any mind. AKA they just do their thing; i.e. babysit the party. By harassing and controlling; no one will complain because they have super DPS in the hybrid build. The key is team work over all. Not just the Tank or Clerics responsibility. The HoTs alone from cleric will pull "fresh" mobs even if he's not currently healing. So the DPS needs to get the packs as they come in.
Dungeon Ques have lead to this mentality of bad playing. The rule of sticking with guilds should for the most part lower these issues...
You can see tons of YT clips of actual healing and Tanking in this game now... No running around on fire for anyone.
Tank the boss, DPS focus on adds always; unless its a boss burn; let cleric kite if needed. Otherwise Tank weaves from Boss to elites. (catching trash) with his Aoes most the time anyway. The idea with DPS tanks is to avoid damage manually not blocking. So all party members must still remain aware; especially since Bosses in this game like to just choose random targets often; Nothing a Tank can do to stop that; and most CC doesn't work On Bosses and min bosses mid way up.
Don't mean to go into tank so much (other classes should know the ability or lack of the tanks and Clerics in party.)...
Cleric needs to be rdy to kite or more preferably DPS needs to stop focusing on their rank and get to the packs before they get triggered by his healing. (even after which if they are on top of things will easily peel from Cleric.) Ask any Cleric that knows his class... Aggro reduction is not needed; matter of fact its useless lol...
Because in these cases its a matter of being triggered from ZERO aggro. (Agro grabbed on FRESH mobs by Healing already going on or going off; since no dmg has hit them from time of spawning to pathing to center. Which again is easily managed by the DPS Meeting the packs as they spawn...Situational awareness)
PS: If for whatever reason a cleric is forced to spam heal... Then it will cause just as bad a mess as dps not engaging the new adds.
BUT in most cases this has only happened because the DPS dint do so to start with lol...
Sry for the book and repeating - gonna be lazy 2day.
Comments
-Consider specing for less threat.
-Give the tank and DPS a bit more time ( like 5 seconds ) before you drop heals.
If you have done that, you need a better group. Your heals are either to good and the groups damage is not keeping up or they are not controlling the pulls like they should i.e face roll dps style.
Strat - Great Weapon Fighter - Level 60 ( Retired for now )
Strattwo - Control Wizard - Level 60
Stratx - Devoted Cleric - Level 60
Stratt - Trickster Rogue - Level 18
http://theeoi.com - Visit for more information on our gaming community.
I dunno, the kite everything cleric play is fun the first couple times you do it but it's the same in every encounter and it gets old fast.
Spoken like someone who hasn't actually played the game.
Cleric healing threat vastly outaggros every other form of threat in the game. No matter how you spec and no matter what you do. It has nothing to do with your group. The suggestion of waiting 5 seconds shows you have no idea what you're talking about or what the problem actually is.
The people crying are doing it because the group is not working within the design of the game. They are trying to play this game like it is another game, and complaining that things arent working right. Its the player that is not working right.
My experience with Clerics in this game so far is they load up on every single skill as a healing skill, and spam everything they got all the time. WHY.........................................
Not to mention that every class in the game has survival skills that are required. You dont have a dodge for no reason in this, try using it and other skills that slow and disable, and have teammates that know how to do that stuff.
I learn more about my Cleric each time I do a T2. I am having to move less and less each time it seems, and I am utilizing my skills much more effectively then I did in the past. I.E., I didnt give up like a large majority of players saying clerics are useless. My Up-Time on AS is 100%, and I am near 80% Up-Time on hallowed ground, and rocking almost full pips, and I am still having to run obviously. The people hating on clerics just need more practice. Or, sorry have to say it but. Try a new class, I guarantee you the Cleric in class is hands-down the most difficult class to play in this game, and it will probably always be. Cleric isnt for everyone, I for one ****ing love mine, and so do my groups -)
Unless the CW's you have played with are completely ignoring adds for the boss, that is almost impossible. CW's have several hard controls (total incapacitation), but alot of soft controls (push, pull, knock down) built into the powers they dps with. Unless they are only using at will powers, and not RoF which builds a hard stun, then how are they not controlling mobs? I use MM and RoF, MM for dps and debuff/buff with the renegade tree capstone power, ROF for a CC. I use ice knife and chaos storm as my dailies, both of which do hella damage and control (Ice Knife freezes and leaves prone, chaos storm ejects all mobs near me to the target point, great for sending mobs back to the defender or away from me and cleric). I use Endless Avalanche, which has a knock up and leaves prone, Ice Strike which leaves a mob stunned frozen, and Steal Time, an aoe total stun. Mobs barely get a chance to move unless they are immune or missed. My only non-cc pure damage encounter power is Sudden Storm. But there is some form of control on nearly every CW power, so if they are dps'ing, they are controlling too. If they are ignoring adds they are just gimping themselves in damage done, as CW's do best hitting groups with their spells rather than just pwning the boss. My 2 cents.
Reading the Cleric section on forums has anyone tried going nakid and putting gear back to fix threat/sooth?
For those of you saying the "tank" is bad. There are no class role definitions in this game, it wasn't designed to be that way. The classes available now are specifically designed to where you could roll as 5 rogues, and as long as you bought some health potions you'll probably damage the target down before they will kill you.
If you are having issues staying alive as a Cleric you may want to re-think your Encounters/Passive abilities. Don't always think burst healing when it comes to clerics, think of reducing damage taken and heal over time spells. On Epic Pirate King, I can easily tank all of the adds at the last boss on the ship while my party blows up the boss. I just sit there and heal myself with damage reducing effects and I never kite.
Right, because the cleric I run with in Tier 2 Epic Dungeons complains soooo much about all of the agro.
Waiiiiit a second, there is a Dwarf looking guy, with a shield... Everything is always hitting him... And he is still at full HP.
Strat - Great Weapon Fighter - Level 60 ( Retired for now )
Strattwo - Control Wizard - Level 60
Stratx - Devoted Cleric - Level 60
Stratt - Trickster Rogue - Level 18
http://theeoi.com - Visit for more information on our gaming community.
In this game you have 4 roles. The new one being a controller. In typical fights you have a main boss and numerous adds. The tank holds the main boss... Guardians have the threat generation to hold it if they focus on it. DPS burns boss or adds depending on the strat. Now for the twist... Controllers snare or gather up the adds periodically allowing the healer time to heal self and tank (and others.)
Right now we have one controller that can AOE snare like a champ. Sadly, yes... there are limited fight mechanics because we only have 1 of each role (2 for dps or strikers) so this same playstyle will be used over and over for a bit to "reteach" us and get us used to having 4 roles.
LOL. That's mean but you may be right.
I take for now the problem is that most of the player base is maybe too used to the WoW-style (I can only say this from other people's experience, I never personally played WoW)...
I ran into the same problem healing in TOR.
the dps have to attack the little mobs first and get them off of the healer. apparently in world of warcraft the tank was able to aggro 30 mobs. I don't think that is the case in this game. (I am not 60 yet so I can only assume)
also, what alocer3 is talking about, the 'controller' is what ACTUAL 'old school' MMOs used to call a supporter. part of the support role is stunning, slowing and so on. this can be done in this game. people need to start using it.
Mad Dragon is one of the toughest fights leveling up. Go back to the dungeons when you feel up to it. There's not many bosses like that until you get to 60.
Not to mention most Clerics don't spec into Soothe and then cry about agro.
Thanks for a boost , will give next dungeon a try.
1) Dodge HAMSTER so I don't need heals
2) Freeze/choke/knockbock AKA Control mobs that are attacking the cleric
3) Control mobs that are attacking anyone else
4) Kill adds, smallest to largest
5) Kill boss
The irony of the tunnel vision control wizard is that, on the big bosses, the majority of the control effects don't work, which makes most of your effort a waste. If all you do is hit the boss, you might as well not be there.
If you want to be a nuker, wait until they get around to adding a War Wizard. See the very end of http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wizard
Divinity Astral Shield
Divinity Forge
Astral Seal
That's generally all the healing you need. If you use active heals they will draw a lot of aggro and many tanks, GWFs etc dont bother looking around and helping you out.
People learn quick to stand in blue circle of awesome that is astral shield. Those that don't die
They can cry coding is hard and they have a deal line but it really doesn't help anything when people start playing and already are looking for other games because these business practices.
I am lvl 60 and have had no problem tanking small mobs, it's annoying but I don't actually die. Foresight and the lvl 50 (I forgot it's name) passive that blocks a damage every 60 seconds (40 seconds with rank 3) helps out a lot.
With that being said, cleric's in this game do not wear cloth armor, rather, chain, so it's not like they're squishy to begin with.
Like mentioned before, just run astral shield and tank some adds for your group, it's not that big of a deal.
While I understand the healers crying about the crazy amount of aggro they generate, I also agree that it adds to the challenge and is the responsibility of other party members to mitigate. People keep stating that this is to avoid healers becoming "healbots", but then what are the tanks? It completely takes away from the playability of a GF if the only responsibility is to tank one boss. If we were to get some bosses with a new mechanic, the whole game would be a bit more enjoyable for all classes.
Most definitely...we have a single target striker (TR), and AoE striker (GWF), a tank, a healer, and a controller...
AoE Striker needs to handle adds (single target striker might need to help as well!)
Single target striker sticks to boss/specials
Control Wizard aids with add control (debuffs and/or grouping them up) and switches to DPS when appropriate
Tank holds boss or any other big nasty mob that needs to not be HAMSTER everyone else
Healer...heals and takes advantage of the "aggro problem" by directing groups of enemies to appropriate areas or by clumping them up so they, the AoE striker, and the control wizard can AoE them all at once. The cleric is a "Leader" class for a reason...they have a huge amount of influence over the direction and flow of combat....its not a "victim" class.
If you cant work in DnD as a team then you apparently missed the part where, at its core, this is a team game.
At least on paper (and from what I have done in game so far as a cleric) this seems to work best...obviously a group that coordinate and knows each other better will have a much better time with this composition and find it working better.
Well we've only been saying that for weeks/months now and Cryptic has yet to actually fix anything.
Then again they won't say what they are working on so who knows.
I hate the hush-hush policy; it sucks.
Get a stinking test server and post test patch notes on there.
My brother is playing a cleric now in open and I'm playing a rogue, and he's getting the HAMSTER beat out of him due to heal agro in skirmishes and tower, but it doesn't seem quite as bad as before. Still idiotic amounts of agro, but not as bad.
Maybe it helps that I always switch to the adds/mobs on him and try to reduce the amount of running for his life and potion chugging he has to do.
Anyways, here's another vote for cleric heal agro being stupidly excessive and most importantly, NOT FUN.
you can tank for 1-3sec then u better get your *** running, otherwise you're on ground licking dirt.
Again, it's obvious you don't actually play this game, are lying, or don't pay attention at all. The idea that "everything is always hitting" your tank is simply wrong. That isn't how this game works. No matter what. Adds spawned during boss fights cannot all be tanked by the tank. No matter how good the tank is. GF taunts are all target capped and there is mathematically not enough of them to taunt anywhere near all the adds that spawn during most boss fights.
And I'm not saying they necessarily should all be tankable. But you are making claims that simply can't be true.
Aggro is NOT jacked up... Players are... The tank management system does need a revamp tho; the design on marks is counter intuitive to the pace of the fights. (ie impossible to manage) But most tanks are getting smart and going DPS which completely 90% ignores that mechanic... Healing aggro is not because of pulling insane HATE from basic use. Its from people not playing right; or understanding new mobs go for a healer because healing triggers the aggro on them, since no damage was incurred to them as they head to center of fight... Or overuse of heals; probably because the DPS or tank didn't do their job in first place... Which makes the aggro for healer even worse as he spams away to stay alive...
So now we have clerics building more OT or resorting to kiting through fights...
Here's the book: (Im not master of writing.)
Tanks do have the ability to AoE aggro even a charge that has an Aoe Taunt. (still marks are poorly thought out; mainly because of the pace of the fights)
What the issue is (well one of) is that since most boss fights have tons of adds; when these new adds pop the first thing they do is B line for the healer. They are at zero aggro; and no one's attacking them so the heals trigger them right away to aggro Cleric. Now its often a lil chaotic and the fact mobs surround you rather then stack (in most cases) this put things at even more disadvantage for tank.
(His marks for example will drop if hit from offside of shield or not blocking. But holding block would run him out of blocking ability. (Its a juggle)
I say this because some tanks will run around chaotically; leaving the boss for example and either didn't have enough aggro or DPS screw it up; while he rushes to grab new pack. Often you cant get them all before heal picks up fresh adds because they come in packs from across each other. So its inevitable that one or 2 packs will reach the cleric. Clerics then run around like on fire because they have to; each spammed heal creating more aggro...
Options are either Tank sticks to Boss (if its that kind of fight) and the DPS engage the adds as they pop up. So to keep the healer free. Or (if elites) are in packs bring them to Tank. OR let the tank just focus on grabbing the Elites himself with Mark then Peeling it from the Adds as the DPS clean it up. The healer never need worry then... A dps hitting the adds will easily peel or prevent the mobs from engaging the Cleric if start right away.
Another option which is used is in some cases; the Cleric simply kites the adds intentionally; Lots of Clerics have gone with a tankier build.
You can keep the Tank and TR on boss; let the GWF or CW destroy the packs... (TR doesn't have to; fights just quicker this way)
Lots of options really. So in the end it comes down to the DPS in this game. They have to equally be aware for healer...
And problem solved regardless of tanks build.
All in all I realized last night that its just a lot of sloppy players who tell you you don't need tanks. They only use them in the last of the elite dungeons and even then have gotten such bad habits it can be a pain for healer and tank.
You can as in any other game put your back to a wall and for the most part the mobs backs to players (encouraging extra dmg all the time from the buff that way...) Just no one wants to; and most tanks have been forced into running the DPS hybrid build now.
Which is both good and bad thing. Of coarse the fact respec is costly would be the number one reason why.
I have zero issues with aggro; tanks not holding aggro is a myth; its just bad players. Not even have to be the tank; just bad party. (Rush types).
So again this has lead to things like Cleric just kiting, or DPS Tanks (because they (tank) can do more damage then even TR (content pending). They can forgo the broken mark system because their DPS alone will hold aggro. They then simply move around the field "controlling specific mobs or boss" without anyone really giving them any mind. AKA they just do their thing; i.e. babysit the party. By harassing and controlling; no one will complain because they have super DPS in the hybrid build. The key is team work over all. Not just the Tank or Clerics responsibility. The HoTs alone from cleric will pull "fresh" mobs even if he's not currently healing. So the DPS needs to get the packs as they come in.
Dungeon Ques have lead to this mentality of bad playing. The rule of sticking with guilds should for the most part lower these issues...
You can see tons of YT clips of actual healing and Tanking in this game now... No running around on fire for anyone.
Tank the boss, DPS focus on adds always; unless its a boss burn; let cleric kite if needed. Otherwise Tank weaves from Boss to elites. (catching trash) with his Aoes most the time anyway. The idea with DPS tanks is to avoid damage manually not blocking. So all party members must still remain aware; especially since Bosses in this game like to just choose random targets often; Nothing a Tank can do to stop that; and most CC doesn't work
Don't mean to go into tank so much (other classes should know the ability or lack of the tanks and Clerics in party.)...
Cleric needs to be rdy to kite or more preferably DPS needs to stop focusing on their rank and get to the packs before they get triggered by his healing. (even after which if they are on top of things will easily peel from Cleric.)
Ask any Cleric that knows his class... Aggro reduction is not needed; matter of fact its useless lol...
Because in these cases its a matter of being triggered from ZERO aggro. (Agro grabbed on FRESH mobs by Healing already going on or going off; since no dmg has hit them from time of spawning to pathing to center. Which again is easily managed by the DPS Meeting the packs as they spawn...Situational awareness)
PS: If for whatever reason a cleric is forced to spam heal... Then it will cause just as bad a mess as dps not engaging the new adds.
BUT in most cases this has only happened because the DPS dint do so to start with lol...
Sry for the book and repeating - gonna be lazy 2day.