Other than not having to rest to regain powers, not having healing surges to keep track of, and having MMO style HP and damage... This is pretty much spot on 4th edition D&D
Granted, I was not particularly fond of the pen and paper version of 4th edition D&D, but as an MMO, it works.
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nemekusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 6Arc User
Man I wish I had a nickle every time an old Min/maxer showed up and started screaming about Thaco, I'm an older guy and have been playing D&D since Disco, but if I ever start doing that I would hope that my friends would cart me off to the old gamers home.
I'm not dead yet!!! I feel Haappy! I want to take a walk!!
Yeah, that pay-2-finish model is what i hated the most about it... But at least it felt like d&d, and at least you could make a chainmail wearing mage, if you wanted to.
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Think everyone has it all wrong and that topic keeps coming back for no reasons at all.
I think you have to be realistic about expectation. As someone who played pen&paper version in 1977 and on for many years, you can't realistically expect an exact replication. I'm quite happy thus far, and am having a very good time.
"Old School" input. Played D&D since Chainmail and Tunnels -n- Trolls.
There are reasons why elves are not a class and why thac0 doesn't exist any more. They aren't intuitive. It doesn't make sense for an elf to not be able to specialize. And THAC0, no matter how you cut it, was confusing to pretty much any new comer.
As a side note, this is based on 4E and while I'm not familiar with it, converting analog mechanics to digital mechanics often requires changing how they function such as AC.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
There is a whole range of things that dont make sense in D&D, main reason being that its a fantasy game.
You are correct, D&D is played on a table or other surface, it uses dice, story, manuals, and imagination. This is an MMO based off of some D&D lore, I never understood why someone expect an MMO to ever replicate true D&D, then complain that its not D&D.
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seonsaengnimMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 16Arc User
The more I play it the more I realize it's basically just a re-skinned Star Trek online but without the ships.
Thats exactly what i've been thinking
Yeah I get the feeling Cryptic would have done a better job at development, before PWE bought em out. And it's too bad Atari sold the rights after that long battle is Wizzy's.
Asians are professional game ruiners, not all of them, but mostly, the worst MMO I've ever played was actually Perfect World, the one that they proudly announce nowadays as their company name lol
As for Cryptic, and the "rip off" from StarTrek, well, this game is almost the same as Champions Online, so my guess is that all their games use the same engine, same system, so I would guess all cryptic's MMOs are basically reskins of one another. But still, this one is cool, I like it enough, tho my dream is an true MMO RPG, or RPG MMO, since the term MMO RPG always refers to these trash commercial schemes, even this one is doomed to become one, Champions Online is unbearable nowadays, p2w everywhere when they say it is p2p, can't even access my former characters without paying them sums lol
Hate the company love the game, my new MOTO I guess
so much for so little, the world has too many dumb people, but wth? That's how they make money!
Character kits were the customization part, and by the time 3rd edition hit, there were countless kits.
4e works with kits as well, specially the Essentials line. What's the difference, really?
I fail to see this "golden age of customization" that people are talking about in pre 3e D&D rulesets that seem to remove any legitimacy to 4e being a D&D product. If anything, 4e does the kit system a lot better with a much more developed battle system.
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
1st and 2nd editions didn't offer any character customization. Don't romanticize the days of yore to the point you leave reality.
It's true however that this game doesn't offer the level of customization that 4e does.
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Who cares,
The same folks that keep going in every god damned thread since beta informing us on what this game is or is not are the same folks that are guilded, ready for love and exploiting and camping PvP since day one of open beta. Totally turning me off and makes me want to only group with free players. at least a few of them seem to have some ethics while not willing to invest so much in the game.
Played with a few free guys in the Icespire peak today and it was alot more fun then playing with those beta streamrollers. Not only that but many of them (free players) seem to be 10 times more competant players then those abnoxious ,arrogant exploiting Zeros of the north.
4e works with kits as well, specially the Essentials line. What's the difference, really?
I fail to see this "golden age of customization" that people are talking about in pre 3e D&D rulesets that seem to remove any legitimacy to 4e being a D&D product. If anything, 4e does the kit system a lot better with a much more developed battle system.
and that's why I play AD&D rather than D&D, D&D is way too limited, and not only that, I've quit AD&D due to limitation and adapted it into GURPS, like a boss!
so much for so little, the world has too many dumb people, but wth? That's how they make money!
. . . . . Looks like the "Special Characters" forum bug hit this post. Be aware, using any special characters found on this page will result in that character and everything else afterwards to be omitted. Stick to ASCII EN-US (non-Latin) keys and you should be okay. Sometimes copy/paste will inadvertently copy an invisible character instead of a space and cause this also.
Character kits were the customization part, and by the time 3rd edition hit, there were countless kits.
Choosing a kit was functionally equivalent to choosing a Class.
Regardless, this kind of "customization" in no way supports an argument of "this isn't D&D", and rather supports an argument of "we need more classes". Which they've explicitly said they're working on.
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walkyrienMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
So I know that the Basic+ system didn't have much that was customizable...however, the 2nd ed was alot more customizable than this game.
Like I had attempted to say in the OP, why are the warrior archetypes the only one that can see hidden doors? (rogue/dwarf/elf)
If we need to choose a god during creation, why doesn't everyone have the religious skill? (skills are primary way of customization)
Why would a cleric of selune, goddess of the moon, EVER use a spell called sunburst? (spheres of influence)
Why would a cleric not use its gods' preferred weapon? (like chauntea only allows wooden weapons)
My over all point is, if they are going to use the tag of D&D and/or the Forgotten Realms setting...they need to do it correctly, not bastardize it beyond recognition.
There is no customization of characters...whether it is skills or spells. Take, for example, a cleric of Sel
**EDIT
Ok then, can't even code a good vBulletin it seems...
Basically my rant was for all the old-school D&D types that know what THAC0 is and remember when elf was a CLASS rather than a race.
I just wanted to chime in about this whining, regarding D&D rules. Yes, I am an older gamer and yes I used to play D&D with pen and paper and my imagination when I was a kid. The adventure and wonder we would find in those days was exciting, but just like many other things in life it faded.
Over the last 10+ years, if you still have been rolling dice in a gaming community in person more power to you man. But I can guarantee you that you never see a PC gamer walk into a D&D shop/gaming session and complain about everyone using pen and paper. The thing is, if that is still what you like go do it man. Heck I still have some old D&D manuals on the shelf, and if you are as adamant about your opinion as you make yourself out to be you should too.
4E has absolutely nothing in common with any kind of MMOs.
I'm sorry, as much as I like 4E for the hacky-slashy fun D&D was designed for this is purely untrue. Why do you think classes in 4E are divided up into roles like Defender/Striker/Controller/Leader? They line up nicely with classic MMO roles of Tank/DPS/Disabler/Healer. Sure they're not copy and paste, but to say 4E took nothing from MMOs (Or from RPGs in general, who definitely took tabs from D&D) only betrays 'your' ignorance of 4E and MMOs. To say that 4E has nothing in common with any kind of MMO is like saying Humans have nothing in common with Monkeys(Bit of a stretched analogy, but there isn't really a natural analogy for A helps develop B which helps develop A that I am aware of).
Over the last 10+ years, if you still have been rolling dice in a gaming community in person more power to you man. But I can guarantee you that you never see a PC gamer walk into a D&D shop/gaming session and complain about everyone using pen and paper. The thing is, if that is still what you like go do it man. Heck I still have some old D&D manuals on the shelf, and if you are as adamant about your opinion as you make yourself out to be you should too.
Wow, some people just don't get it. Nobody is complaining that this is a video game rather than pencil and paper. They are complaining because it's a lousy translation of what D&D should look like as a video game. I'm sure people who want to play PnP D&D are doing just that.
Wow, some people just don't get it. Nobody is complaining that this is a video game rather than pencil and paper. They are complaining because it's a lousy translation of what D&D should look like as a video game. I'm sure people who want to play PnP D&D are doing just that.
Actually, what I was referring to there was how ppl waltz right into a forum (for a video game) and complain it's not a direct translation from pen and paper. As a person who has grown up with pen & paper D&D, I can see what the complaint is about but it just holds no relevance in a forum for video games.
So how are you gonna make a fps style action-based combat game that also makes you wait your turn? I, personally, enjoy the fresh take on the action and am glad to have a 'live action' version of the D&D ruleset. And yes, it does follow D&D rules just not the old and outdated ruleset from over 10 years ago.
So, what exactly is it you are saying I don't get? Because truth be told, I'd wager I probably understood more about the D&D history and ruleset than you before you were born.
Astral,
I was referring to your comment that you would never see a PC gamer complain about everyone using pen and paper in a D&D game. That comment is misplaced considering the conversation people are attempting to have here. It just doesn't make any sense at all. Read what I put in bold while quoting you & think about what you said.
What I was saying you don't get is the context of the complaint about this game. People write they don't like it because they cannot switch weapons, train in various abilities, learn/load different spells, etc. and you state that them complaining here about the video game is the equivalent of video gamers compaining at a PnP D&D table about using pencils and paper.
Astral,
I was referring to your comment that you would never see a PC gamer complain about everyone using pen and paper in a D&D game. That comment is misplaced considering the conversation people are attempting to have here. It just doesn't make any sense at all. Read what I put in bold while quoting you & think about what you said.
What I was saying you don't get is the context of the complaint about this game. People write they don't like it because they cannot switch weapons, train in various abilities, learn/load different spells, etc. and you state that them complaining here about the video game is the equivalent of video gamers compaining at a PnP D&D table about using pencils and paper.
Ergo, way off base.
Also take note of what I bolded here, my friend. Actually it's not way off base, this is the exact argument I'm trying to make. Yes, players of traditional pen and paper D&D are in fact coming and complaining on a video game forum. Which would be the equivalent of a PC gamer going and complaining at a pen and paper D&D session...So yea pretty much idk what we're arguing about (apples and oranges) but my original comment still stands, as intended.
I do get what is being complained about, but in all reality when a D&D game actually comes out that encompasses all aspects of customization from traditional D&D...it would take 10 years to make, and the level of complexity that game would offer would far overshadow even games like Eve Online. That's not a bad thing, and I welcome that with open arms, although for what Cryptic is trying to put on the table here as an action-based D&D game I think they cut all the right corners. Just my opinion, and of course everyone's entitled to their own.
No, it doesn't. Anyone who says that is clearly demonstrating an ignorance of either 4E or MMOs.
4E has absolutely nothing in common with any kind of MMOs.
4E combat literally plays like a Turn-Based Tactical game, like Final Fantasy Tactics.
Our group battle tested 4e for about a year before it came out, and the people I was providing feedback to were DELIGHTED to hear that it looked like an MMO on paper, because the entire marketing goal of the game was to create an entity that the current generation of MMO gamers could relate to.
As far as having nothing to do with MMOs - 4E combat plays like Gauntlet back in the 80s with better graphics. Each class has a few abilities they can spam plus a few they can use with far longer cooldowns and one they can use with a HUGE cooldown. Yellow wizard needs food badly. Blue Valkyrie shot the food!!!
Comments
Granted, I was not particularly fond of the pen and paper version of 4th edition D&D, but as an MMO, it works.
Yeah, that pay-2-finish model is what i hated the most about it... But at least it felt like d&d, and at least you could make a chainmail wearing mage, if you wanted to.
hehe
"Old School" input. Played D&D since Chainmail and Tunnels -n- Trolls.
As a side note, this is based on 4E and while I'm not familiar with it, converting analog mechanics to digital mechanics often requires changing how they function such as AC.
Yay for TnT!
By the way, it might surprise you to find out that TnT is still going strong. They ran a very successful Kickstarter for their next edition three months ago: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/994700393/deluxe-tunnels-and-trolls
OMG I loved TnT especially the Solo modules city of Terrors and naked Doom were amazing!
Yeah I get the feeling Cryptic would have done a better job at development, before PWE bought em out. And it's too bad Atari sold the rights after that long battle is Wizzy's.
As for Cryptic, and the "rip off" from StarTrek, well, this game is almost the same as Champions Online, so my guess is that all their games use the same engine, same system, so I would guess all cryptic's MMOs are basically reskins of one another. But still, this one is cool, I like it enough, tho my dream is an true MMO RPG, or RPG MMO, since the term MMO RPG always refers to these trash commercial schemes, even this one is doomed to become one, Champions Online is unbearable nowadays, p2w everywhere when they say it is p2p, can't even access my former characters without paying them sums lol
Hate the company love the game, my new MOTO I guess
4e works with kits as well, specially the Essentials line. What's the difference, really?
I fail to see this "golden age of customization" that people are talking about in pre 3e D&D rulesets that seem to remove any legitimacy to 4e being a D&D product. If anything, 4e does the kit system a lot better with a much more developed battle system.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
It's true however that this game doesn't offer the level of customization that 4e does.
The same folks that keep going in every god damned thread since beta informing us on what this game is or is not are the same folks that are guilded, ready for love and exploiting and camping PvP since day one of open beta. Totally turning me off and makes me want to only group with free players. at least a few of them seem to have some ethics while not willing to invest so much in the game.
Played with a few free guys in the Icespire peak today and it was alot more fun then playing with those beta streamrollers. Not only that but many of them (free players) seem to be 10 times more competant players then those abnoxious ,arrogant exploiting Zeros of the north.
that's all I have to say
and that's why I play AD&D rather than D&D, D&D is way too limited, and not only that, I've quit AD&D due to limitation and adapted it into GURPS, like a boss!
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=14844911&postcount=38
^Works just fine (for those wondering that's from PWI's help files in the client)
4E has absolutely nothing in common with any kind of MMOs.
4E combat literally plays like a Turn-Based Tactical game, like Final Fantasy Tactics.
Choosing a kit was functionally equivalent to choosing a Class.
Regardless, this kind of "customization" in no way supports an argument of "this isn't D&D", and rather supports an argument of "we need more classes". Which they've explicitly said they're working on.
Like I had attempted to say in the OP, why are the warrior archetypes the only one that can see hidden doors? (rogue/dwarf/elf)
If we need to choose a god during creation, why doesn't everyone have the religious skill? (skills are primary way of customization)
Why would a cleric of selune, goddess of the moon, EVER use a spell called sunburst? (spheres of influence)
Why would a cleric not use its gods' preferred weapon? (like chauntea only allows wooden weapons)
My over all point is, if they are going to use the tag of D&D and/or the Forgotten Realms setting...they need to do it correctly, not bastardize it beyond recognition.
I just wanted to chime in about this whining, regarding D&D rules. Yes, I am an older gamer and yes I used to play D&D with pen and paper and my imagination when I was a kid. The adventure and wonder we would find in those days was exciting, but just like many other things in life it faded.
Over the last 10+ years, if you still have been rolling dice in a gaming community in person more power to you man. But I can guarantee you that you never see a PC gamer walk into a D&D shop/gaming session and complain about everyone using pen and paper. The thing is, if that is still what you like go do it man. Heck I still have some old D&D manuals on the shelf, and if you are as adamant about your opinion as you make yourself out to be you should too.
I'm sorry, as much as I like 4E for the hacky-slashy fun D&D was designed for this is purely untrue. Why do you think classes in 4E are divided up into roles like Defender/Striker/Controller/Leader? They line up nicely with classic MMO roles of Tank/DPS/Disabler/Healer. Sure they're not copy and paste, but to say 4E took nothing from MMOs (Or from RPGs in general, who definitely took tabs from D&D) only betrays 'your' ignorance of 4E and MMOs. To say that 4E has nothing in common with any kind of MMO is like saying Humans have nothing in common with Monkeys(Bit of a stretched analogy, but there isn't really a natural analogy for A helps develop B which helps develop A that I am aware of).
Wow, some people just don't get it. Nobody is complaining that this is a video game rather than pencil and paper. They are complaining because it's a lousy translation of what D&D should look like as a video game. I'm sure people who want to play PnP D&D are doing just that.
Actually, what I was referring to there was how ppl waltz right into a forum (for a video game) and complain it's not a direct translation from pen and paper. As a person who has grown up with pen & paper D&D, I can see what the complaint is about but it just holds no relevance in a forum for video games.
So how are you gonna make a fps style action-based combat game that also makes you wait your turn? I, personally, enjoy the fresh take on the action and am glad to have a 'live action' version of the D&D ruleset. And yes, it does follow D&D rules just not the old and outdated ruleset from over 10 years ago.
So, what exactly is it you are saying I don't get? Because truth be told, I'd wager I probably understood more about the D&D history and ruleset than you before you were born.
I was referring to your comment that you would never see a PC gamer complain about everyone using pen and paper in a D&D game. That comment is misplaced considering the conversation people are attempting to have here. It just doesn't make any sense at all. Read what I put in bold while quoting you & think about what you said.
What I was saying you don't get is the context of the complaint about this game. People write they don't like it because they cannot switch weapons, train in various abilities, learn/load different spells, etc. and you state that them complaining here about the video game is the equivalent of video gamers compaining at a PnP D&D table about using pencils and paper.
Ergo, way off base.
Amen to that lol. All the OP is saying here is, "Hey I'm an attention wh*** and wanted everyone to know that I was around back in the day. "
Thanks for clearing that up tylon, lol.
Also take note of what I bolded here, my friend. Actually it's not way off base, this is the exact argument I'm trying to make. Yes, players of traditional pen and paper D&D are in fact coming and complaining on a video game forum. Which would be the equivalent of a PC gamer going and complaining at a pen and paper D&D session...So yea pretty much idk what we're arguing about (apples and oranges) but my original comment still stands, as intended.
I do get what is being complained about, but in all reality when a D&D game actually comes out that encompasses all aspects of customization from traditional D&D...it would take 10 years to make, and the level of complexity that game would offer would far overshadow even games like Eve Online. That's not a bad thing, and I welcome that with open arms, although for what Cryptic is trying to put on the table here as an action-based D&D game I think they cut all the right corners. Just my opinion, and of course everyone's entitled to their own.
Our group battle tested 4e for about a year before it came out, and the people I was providing feedback to were DELIGHTED to hear that it looked like an MMO on paper, because the entire marketing goal of the game was to create an entity that the current generation of MMO gamers could relate to.
As far as having nothing to do with MMOs - 4E combat plays like Gauntlet back in the 80s with better graphics. Each class has a few abilities they can spam plus a few they can use with far longer cooldowns and one they can use with a HUGE cooldown. Yellow wizard needs food badly. Blue Valkyrie shot the food!!!