Man I wish I had a nickle every time an old Min/maxer showed up and started screaming about Thaco, I'm an older guy and have been playing D&D since Disco, but if I ever start doing that I would hope that my friends would cart me off to the old gamers home.
I'm not dead yet!!! I feel Haappy! I want to take a walk!!
That is what annoys me about these posts like the one the OP made. For years, when this game started under Atari, it was known that this was going to be based on 4E rules, yet people still come and post about how it isn't the 2nd Ed AD&D or 3.X they remember...NO ****ING **** SHERLOCK! A modicum of research into this game would have told your dumb asses that in the first place, so I see no reason for this asinine complaint. News flash, Pizza Hut doesn't serve tacos either, just in case you had another <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and unjustified expectation for lunch to go along with this one about Neverwinter.
They do, however, own Taco Bell, and KFC. So in 4E, rogues don't have to roll to disable traps? I know I have yet to fail one if they do. If the game is getting that far away from the D20 system, is it really still the same game? Are Search and Spot not skills you need to see a stealthed rogue? Did they really minimalize that rogue skill that much? Rogues in 4E can't stealth until level 10? You can feel free to take this as snark, if you wish, after all, I'm just a dumb *** right? But the fact is, I simply don't know, and frankly, if I have to google every time I automatically make, or fail, a skill check, what's the point?
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
omg I can't roll my D20, this game is terrible....
/sarcasm
Most of you are a bunch of whining babies, and nothing will ever be good enough for you. There is nothing Cryptic, or any other game company in existence, can do to pacify you whiners. You all have ridiculously high expectations, paired up with absolutely no idea of what it takes to design MMO mechanics, and that combination makes you a vocal minority, indeed.
are you talking about DDO? I heard that game is really really bad...i even tried to play, and you have to request a key from the devs via email..i requested one, never got it, guess they didn't want me to play.
I also heard the cash shop was WORSE than what people deem NW to be.
I could be wrong, not having first-hand experience (although i tried!!!).
DDO is worse in what they sell at the cash shop but better in their pricing. An equivalent example would be if the feats in the paragon path portion of the feats system in nwo were cash shop only.
DDO is worse in what they sell at the cash shop but better in their pricing. An equivalent example would be if the feats in the paragon path portion of the feats system in nwo were cash shop only.
Yeah but you also have to buy content in DDo which you will never have to do here, they are going to get you either way.
omg I can't roll my D20, this game is terrible....
/sarcasm
Most of you are a bunch of whining babies, and nothing will ever be good enough for you. There is nothing Cryptic, or any other game company in existence, can do to pacify you whiners. You all have ridiculously high expectations, paired up with absolutely no idea of what it takes to design MMO mechanics, and that combination makes you a vocal minority, indeed.
Wow, whining about whining while claiming the high ground? Really? You know some of us know nothing about developing an MMO how, precisely? Because maybe someone's opinion varies from your own? So snap judgments and flaming are the best weapons you have in a dialog? You must be a real winner outside of game forums. Let me guess, you came over from WoW? You are the atypical WoW personality, from what I've seen on MMO forums over the last 10 years.
No where have I claimed this game is good or bad, or that the feeling of it not being D&D like is good or bad. I have simply claimed that it exists. If this bothers you, then I suggest instead of flaming me, you evaluate yourself. Cryptic is not going to make drastic changes to the game because I feel a certain way about it, and flaming me isn't going to make me change my mind about it either. I rather like people like you attempting to engage me dialog. After a few posts of you flaming away to drive me away, you'll either come to realize that I'm so busy laughing at you that's it's worth it for my entertainment value to feed your trolls, or you won't. Either way, it doesn't alter the fact that it's true.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
Yeah but you also have to buy content in DDo which you will never have to do here, they are going to get you either way.
Yup don't get me wrong I'm not saying ddo is better, if anything I like what I've seen here better, from what I've seen here if I have extra money one month I can buy some new toys and if I don't there is nothing that will stop me from running any content in the game. In ddo you'd have to have
bought the pack for the quest you want to run.
bought the epic destiny system so you aren't gimped
bought enough packs to level
Then you have similar stuff to of
can buy inventory space
can buy bank space
can buy hireling companions
ext ext ext,
top that off ddo has as many bugs as nwo does even though it's live and nwo is beta, ddo has huge balance issues because of the building options and multi-classing creating the ability to create combat builds that are insanely powerful compared to a standard character. This leads to issues of if you balance it so that you can run it on a pure barbarian, rogue ext the build that is a warforged 16 artificer, 2 monk, 2 paladin is going to destroy it from doing similar damage to most other melee's, the ability to self heal, and having good saves with evasion.
From a developer standpoint this creates a system where you either have content that is too easy or too hard to large segments of the playerbase and it creates a nightmare in level design. Keeping the builds more limited allows the devs to create more of a standard challenge to players.
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
If its not D&D, fine...not a problem...just take the D&D logo off and I'll be good...
But it is D&D.
4th Edition D&D. Wizards of the Coast is only licensing games based on the 4th Edition rules. Lazerglovez is wanting a 3.0 or 3.5 based game and there will never be a new official D&D game based on those rules.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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lucidp2kBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There is no customization of characters...whether it is skills or spells. Take, for example, a cleric of Sel
**EDIT
Ok then, can't even code a good vBulletin it seems...
Basically my rant was for all the old-school D&D types that know what THAC0 is and remember when elf was a CLASS rather than a race.
Change is scary, I know. Have some warm milk and take a nap, it'll be ok.
Spend less time complaining about shop prices and more time improving your salary.
That is a one of the differences but not really an important one imo.
If the game is saying it is a D&D game then it is in act important. In all my years of D&D/AD&D/Pathfinder a 4th Lvl Character never had these kinds of HP! Now in Final Fantasy... different ball game.
I think maybe a lot of people had / have issue with the fact that we can't assign stats via a pool and really customize a toons stats the way you'd be with the TT game.
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
After hearing the Hickman's making fun of it (and reading the PHB) I decided to play Pathfinder instead!
Fine but this game is based on the 4th Edition rules as much as you might snear at that rule set. Wizards of the Coast will never again license 3.0 or 3.5 for a new computer game. Now once 5.0 comes out that will become the rule set they license and it looks like they brought back a lot with it so we will see. But while 4.0 is the official D&D version that is the only version you will see licenses for new games.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
If the game is saying it is a D&D game then it is in act important. In all my years of D&D/AD&D/Pathfinder a 4th Lvl Character never had these kinds of HP! Now in Final Fantasy... different ball game.
Look at a DDO character with their Hit Points and spell points and then seriously tell me that is different than how hit points are done here.
Fine but this game is based on the 4th Edition rules as much as you might snear at that rule set. Wizards of the Coast will never again license 3.0 or 3.5 for a new computer game. Now once 5.0 comes out that will become the rule set they license and it looks like they brought back a lot with it so we will see. But while 4.0 is the official D&D version that is the only version you will see licenses for new games.
from my experience, most D&D games used the current TT rules...Baldurs gate used 2.0, so did planescape & icewind dale, i think there was a D20 game too...although they tended to license that system out to other games.
I haven't had any TT D&D experience since they first released 3.0
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
I think maybe a lot of people had / have issue with the fact that we can't assign stats via a pool and really customize a toons stats the way you'd be with the TT game.
The stat generation sadly comes straight out of the rule book for 4th Edition. Frankly I prefer random roll or point buy but that isn't the recommended stat generation for 4th Edition. ::sigh::
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
from my experience, most D&D games used the current TT rules...Baldurs gate used 2.0, so did planescape & icewind dale
And those where the rules set in effect when the game was initially licensed. Basically the owner of D&D has always insisted that new computer games use whatever was the current rule set as the basis for the game.
And those where the rules set in effect when the game was initially licensed. Basically the owner of D&D has always insisted that new computer games use whatever was the current rule set as the basis for the game.
so why would this be any different?
i really don't know, i'm not up to date with D&D rules.
Exactly how much meaningful customization did you have when you were playing that version of D&D in which Elf was a class? Especially if you weren't a spellcaster?
"Old-school" D&D wasn't about customizing character builds. That's more of a 3.X/4E era thing.
Really?
The OLD old school D & D was limited.
Then again It was a pamphlet! :-D
AD&D which was available pretty early was quite customizable.
Even though games that have fuller customization can be a hurdle for newer players, in the end, it's more fun.
That was a big part of what made the game cool. You weren't just the thimble or battleship you got to make your guy however you wanted.
The actual way D&D is (or at least was) played is quite different from a video game and the wide and open world of possibilities probably can't really be simulated but having some control over your character would make the game feel more D&Dish to me.
I like this game so far and wasn't expecting 100 spells to choose from or a billion skills, etc, but NWO is pretty pigeon holed IMO.
When I started and saw that you had .limited influence over stats I kinda knew where this games head was at.
That is to say, hard to make a really bad choice, easy to jump right in.
I get that value of that, but the Dungeons and Dragons part of your player base is used to a lot of rules, details, and customization so I, at least, would prefer a bit more layers than most video games.
Probably the die is cast but if there is any changes that can or will be made I would suggest...
- allow you to buy stat points how you wish.
- allow different spells to be slotted in casters slots so you can have all CC, all AOE, all single target or any combo.
- allow different weapons to be used by different classes (two weapon fighters, ranged rogues, etc)
- allow a multi-class system.
- Have skill system whereby wizards can learn dungeoneeriing or whatever.
Sure, stuff like that open the door just a little wider to exploiters and 95% of players will all end up using the same dozen 'power' builds anyway but I think it would make the game more personal for me.
As it is now I kinda feel too much like I'm choosing between the Elf, Warrior, Valkyrie or Wizard rather than building a character over time.
If the game is saying it is a D&D game then it is in act important. In all my years of D&D/AD&D/Pathfinder a 4th Lvl Character never had these kinds of HP! Now in Final Fantasy... different ball game.
Yes but there is a reason behind it. DDO while the numbers are slightly inflated are not inflated as much. One of the complaints that DDO gets from people that didn't have a dnd background is that "the damage numbers are so tiny" ext ext. This change makes it where pwe doesn't hear this complaint and as long as the damage output is close as a % of your hp there has been no functional change to the game only a cosmetic one.
The stat generation sadly comes straight out of the rule book for 4th Edition. Frankly I prefer random roll or point buy but that isn't the recommended stat generation for 4th Edition. ::sigh::
The stat generation is not straight out of the book.
4E has arrays, which Neverwinter sort of mimics, but you are free to place your stats in whatever order you want, and it has point-buy that is a slight variant of 3.5's. Both of those methods are equally recommended. It also describes rolling, but recommends against doing it (and for good reason).
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
i really don't know, i'm not up to date with D&D rules.
This isn't. Neverwinter Nights Online is based on the current official version of AD&D..... 4th Edition. Unfortunately a lot of people stopped with 3.5 Edition and have never looked at or played 4th Edition. And then come in and see the game and scream it isn't D&D without realizing it is based on the current rules.
Yes but there is a reason behind it. DDO while the numbers are slightly inflated are not inflated as much. One of the complaints that DDO gets from people that didn't have a dnd background is that "the damage numbers are so tiny" ext ext. This change makes it where pwe doesn't hear this complaint and as long as the damage output is close as a % of your hp there has been no functional change to the game only a cosmetic one.
i guess we will just have to disagree Charonous. I see the HP change as a good bit more than a "cosmetic one". It is a total play changer. I don' have to be so mindful of the fight with 1,000+ hit points instead of 56 max.
AD&D which was available pretty early was quite customizable.
AD&D didn't have Elf as a class. OD&D and Basic are the ones with races-as-class. And they have very limited character customization.
But even then, I'd say that overall, Neverwinter offers about as much actual customizability as you'd get playing its classes in AD&D 1E. It's just organized differently, and equalized among classes, instead of spellcasters getting all the options.
And I would like to see more customization options in Neverwinter, but because I enjoy the gameplay of creating and optimizing builds, not because of PnP D&D. Neverwinter is very clearly D&D in spirit.
AD&D didn't have Elf as a class. OD&D and Basic are the ones with races-as-class. And they have very limited character customization.
But even then, I'd say that overall, Neverwinter offers about as much actual customizability as you'd get playing its classes in AD&D 1E. It's just organized differently, and equalized among classes, instead of spellcasters getting all the options.
And I would like to see more customization options in Neverwinter, but because I enjoy the gameplay of creating and optimizing builds, not because of PnP D&D. Neverwinter is very clearly D&D in spirit.
No not really. I don't get to choose the way my Character is evolving. What if I want a two weapon fighter? Not a thief a fighter with Long sword an short? I want Cleave AND Power Attack. I want a exotic weapon Mercury core Great sword. I don't have these choices. What if I wan access to 1st Lvl Spells?
I personally hated what happened when AD&D went back to D&D. It got dumbed down hard.
Comments
That is a one of the differences but not really an important one imo.
I'm not dead yet!!! I feel Haappy! I want to take a walk!!
They do, however, own Taco Bell, and KFC. So in 4E, rogues don't have to roll to disable traps? I know I have yet to fail one if they do. If the game is getting that far away from the D20 system, is it really still the same game? Are Search and Spot not skills you need to see a stealthed rogue? Did they really minimalize that rogue skill that much? Rogues in 4E can't stealth until level 10? You can feel free to take this as snark, if you wish, after all, I'm just a dumb *** right? But the fact is, I simply don't know, and frankly, if I have to google every time I automatically make, or fail, a skill check, what's the point?
/sarcasm
Most of you are a bunch of whining babies, and nothing will ever be good enough for you. There is nothing Cryptic, or any other game company in existence, can do to pacify you whiners. You all have ridiculously high expectations, paired up with absolutely no idea of what it takes to design MMO mechanics, and that combination makes you a vocal minority, indeed.
DDO is worse in what they sell at the cash shop but better in their pricing. An equivalent example would be if the feats in the paragon path portion of the feats system in nwo were cash shop only.
Yeah but you also have to buy content in DDo which you will never have to do here, they are going to get you either way.
Wow, whining about whining while claiming the high ground? Really? You know some of us know nothing about developing an MMO how, precisely? Because maybe someone's opinion varies from your own? So snap judgments and flaming are the best weapons you have in a dialog? You must be a real winner outside of game forums. Let me guess, you came over from WoW? You are the atypical WoW personality, from what I've seen on MMO forums over the last 10 years.
No where have I claimed this game is good or bad, or that the feeling of it not being D&D like is good or bad. I have simply claimed that it exists. If this bothers you, then I suggest instead of flaming me, you evaluate yourself. Cryptic is not going to make drastic changes to the game because I feel a certain way about it, and flaming me isn't going to make me change my mind about it either. I rather like people like you attempting to engage me dialog. After a few posts of you flaming away to drive me away, you'll either come to realize that I'm so busy laughing at you that's it's worth it for my entertainment value to feed your trolls, or you won't. Either way, it doesn't alter the fact that it's true.
Yup don't get me wrong I'm not saying ddo is better, if anything I like what I've seen here better, from what I've seen here if I have extra money one month I can buy some new toys and if I don't there is nothing that will stop me from running any content in the game. In ddo you'd have to have
bought the pack for the quest you want to run.
bought the epic destiny system so you aren't gimped
bought enough packs to level
Then you have similar stuff to of
can buy inventory space
can buy bank space
can buy hireling companions
ext ext ext,
top that off ddo has as many bugs as nwo does even though it's live and nwo is beta, ddo has huge balance issues because of the building options and multi-classing creating the ability to create combat builds that are insanely powerful compared to a standard character. This leads to issues of if you balance it so that you can run it on a pure barbarian, rogue ext the build that is a warforged 16 artificer, 2 monk, 2 paladin is going to destroy it from doing similar damage to most other melee's, the ability to self heal, and having good saves with evasion.
From a developer standpoint this creates a system where you either have content that is too easy or too hard to large segments of the playerbase and it creates a nightmare in level design. Keeping the builds more limited allows the devs to create more of a standard challenge to players.
But it is D&D.
4th Edition D&D. Wizards of the Coast is only licensing games based on the 4th Edition rules. Lazerglovez is wanting a 3.0 or 3.5 based game and there will never be a new official D&D game based on those rules.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Change is scary, I know. Have some warm milk and take a nap, it'll be ok.
Can I get cookies too?
Fine but this game is based on the 4th Edition rules as much as you might snear at that rule set. Wizards of the Coast will never again license 3.0 or 3.5 for a new computer game. Now once 5.0 comes out that will become the rule set they license and it looks like they brought back a lot with it so we will see. But while 4.0 is the official D&D version that is the only version you will see licenses for new games.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Look at a DDO character with their Hit Points and spell points and then seriously tell me that is different than how hit points are done here.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
from my experience, most D&D games used the current TT rules...Baldurs gate used 2.0, so did planescape & icewind dale, i think there was a D20 game too...although they tended to license that system out to other games.
I haven't had any TT D&D experience since they first released 3.0
The stat generation sadly comes straight out of the rule book for 4th Edition. Frankly I prefer random roll or point buy but that isn't the recommended stat generation for 4th Edition. ::sigh::
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
And those where the rules set in effect when the game was initially licensed. Basically the owner of D&D has always insisted that new computer games use whatever was the current rule set as the basis for the game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
so why would this be any different?
i really don't know, i'm not up to date with D&D rules.
Really?
The OLD old school D & D was limited.
Then again It was a pamphlet! :-D
AD&D which was available pretty early was quite customizable.
Even though games that have fuller customization can be a hurdle for newer players, in the end, it's more fun.
That was a big part of what made the game cool. You weren't just the thimble or battleship you got to make your guy however you wanted.
The actual way D&D is (or at least was) played is quite different from a video game and the wide and open world of possibilities probably can't really be simulated but having some control over your character would make the game feel more D&Dish to me.
I like this game so far and wasn't expecting 100 spells to choose from or a billion skills, etc, but NWO is pretty pigeon holed IMO.
When I started and saw that you had .limited influence over stats I kinda knew where this games head was at.
That is to say, hard to make a really bad choice, easy to jump right in.
I get that value of that, but the Dungeons and Dragons part of your player base is used to a lot of rules, details, and customization so I, at least, would prefer a bit more layers than most video games.
Probably the die is cast but if there is any changes that can or will be made I would suggest...
- allow you to buy stat points how you wish.
- allow different spells to be slotted in casters slots so you can have all CC, all AOE, all single target or any combo.
- allow different weapons to be used by different classes (two weapon fighters, ranged rogues, etc)
- allow a multi-class system.
- Have skill system whereby wizards can learn dungeoneeriing or whatever.
Sure, stuff like that open the door just a little wider to exploiters and 95% of players will all end up using the same dozen 'power' builds anyway but I think it would make the game more personal for me.
As it is now I kinda feel too much like I'm choosing between the Elf, Warrior, Valkyrie or Wizard rather than building a character over time.
Just my 2cp
Yes but there is a reason behind it. DDO while the numbers are slightly inflated are not inflated as much. One of the complaints that DDO gets from people that didn't have a dnd background is that "the damage numbers are so tiny" ext ext. This change makes it where pwe doesn't hear this complaint and as long as the damage output is close as a % of your hp there has been no functional change to the game only a cosmetic one.
You, Sir, are awesome. Wonder how many people are going to get that reference.
The stat generation is not straight out of the book.
4E has arrays, which Neverwinter sort of mimics, but you are free to place your stats in whatever order you want, and it has point-buy that is a slight variant of 3.5's. Both of those methods are equally recommended. It also describes rolling, but recommends against doing it (and for good reason).
This isn't. Neverwinter Nights Online is based on the current official version of AD&D..... 4th Edition. Unfortunately a lot of people stopped with 3.5 Edition and have never looked at or played 4th Edition. And then come in and see the game and scream it isn't D&D without realizing it is based on the current rules.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Gauntlet?
/tenchar
Indeed.
Anyway, thanks for your answer.:cool:
AD&D didn't have Elf as a class. OD&D and Basic are the ones with races-as-class. And they have very limited character customization.
But even then, I'd say that overall, Neverwinter offers about as much actual customizability as you'd get playing its classes in AD&D 1E. It's just organized differently, and equalized among classes, instead of spellcasters getting all the options.
And I would like to see more customization options in Neverwinter, but because I enjoy the gameplay of creating and optimizing builds, not because of PnP D&D. Neverwinter is very clearly D&D in spirit.
I personally hated what happened when AD&D went back to D&D. It got dumbed down hard.