I don't think the game supports more than 10 players fighting in an area, as soon as you have over 15 + it sure gets messy with the combat system, flashy effects and very hard to tune.
Raids above all, are about challenge and prestige. The term raid, at least in gaming, indicates that need you ABOVE average team size to best the various encounters presented in a zone. The greater group size just adds to the challenge.
Also keep in mind that raiders need the best gear in order to defeat the most difficult battles in the game. It would not make sense for a solo player, playing only solo content to gain the best gear, unless they plan to raid. This could only work if they plan to provide solo player content equal to raiding tiers, yet this would mean far more work hours and balance time, prolly not worth it.
The quality of loot normally goes hand in hand with the difficulty of the encounter. High raid size usually means high quality loot. It is a no go for the raid community to say that SOLO players will get the same loot quality just by destroying some random epic quest. This will never work out. And most the time they are right about this. The level of organization, determination etc . which is required to successful clear a challenging raid instance, will always be higher than some solo player doing a solo quest, no matter how hard, same can be applied for 5 man. This is simply limited by numbers. You can design far more complex bosses and abilities with 10 players in mind. If you design a boss for a single player, you are very very limited, you have to balance it around ALL classes. Some ability the boss might have would be fatal for a certain class and very easy to counter for another, unless you plan class specific bosses, but well, the time again. Same goes for 5 man.
If they plan any raids, it must be 10 man or 15 man.
As you say, the quality of loot should go hand in hand with the encounter, therefore you would have high level solo content with equal level gear rewards, ultra hard mode 5 man content with equal level gear rewards, and raids with their raid level gear rewards.
If someone does not raid and does not enjoy raiding, they should not even be interested in raid gear because they only need raid gear to do raids in the first place. And they certainly shouldn't feel forced to do raids just for gear if they aren't a raider or part of a raid guild. Why would someone want "raid gear" if they don't raid? If they do want raid gear, then they should learn to raid.
Makes sense to me.
It all depends on what you define as "best gear." Each type of "best gear" should be unique to it's own type of content. This means that the people who aren't interested in a certain type of content should not be interested in it's gear.
This means that the best gear in the entire game would not be restricted to just raid rewards because the gear that is restricted to raid rewards should only be "raid gear."
0
dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Might be on to something here. Even though personally I think same gear/spec should be used for all content including PVP it seems unlikely to go back to that point. The effect would be similar to how in WOW you needed X hit for raiding, but could actually increase your DPS/stats in 5 mans or PVP by using gear without the hit. Set bonuses might be another way since that seems to already separate pvp/pve gear in NWO. If nothing else it would sell more bank space and bags at the store lol.
Might be on to something here. Even though personally I think same gear/spec should be used for all content including PVP it seems unlikely to go back to that point. The effect would be similar to how in WOW you needed X hit for raiding, but could actually increase your DPS/stats in 5 mans or PVP by using gear without the hit. Set bonuses might be another way since that seems to already separate pvp/pve gear in NWO. If nothing else it would sell more bank space and bags at the store lol.
Very true. I myself am actually not a fan of separating gear using the same method as PVP / PVE gear. That is not what I am suggesting if you got that impression. I am simply saying that there is a separation that already exists in terms of stats. But I do see what you are suggesting. Basically separate the various types of gear using either it's overall stats or set bonuses.
I guess this means that while attaining a certain type of gear would help you in most other game activities, using the gear for the type of activity it was meant for would help you even more. So don't penalize people for using the gear outside of it's intended content, rather reward people when using the gear inside of that content. Some people might see this as amounting to the same thing, but it's not. In most MMORPGs if you throw on some PVP gear and step into a dungeon or raid, your going to suck. Here I'm saying you wouldn't suck because there wouldn't be as much of a separation between gear types in this sense. Here I am suggesting that all gear be viable when playing any type of content BUT if you use raid gear in a raid, you would see a significant bonus in terms of stats, and possibly another bonus when equipping the set.
Very true. I myself am actually not a fan of separating gear using the same method as PVP / PVE gear. That is not what I am suggesting if you got that impression. I am simply saying that there is a separation that already exists in terms of stats. But I do see what you are suggesting. Basically separate the various types of gear using either it's overall stats or set bonuses.
I guess this means that while attaining a certain type of gear would help you in most other game activities, using the gear for the type of activity it was meant for would help you even more. So don't penalize people for using the gear outside of it's intended content, rather reward people when using the gear inside of that content. Some people might see this as amounting to the same thing, but it's not. In most MMORPGs if you throw on some PVP gear and step into a dungeon or raid, your going to suck. Here I'm saying you wouldn't suck because there wouldn't be as much of a separation between gear types in this sense. Here I am suggesting that all gear be viable when playing any type of content BUT if you use raid gear in a raid, you would see a significant bonus in terms of stats, and possibly another bonus when equipping the set.
I don't know, just a few ideas.
PvP gear was introduced to wow simply because raiders could destroy everything in pvp due to far superior gear, received in a total different content branch within the game. The quality of loot gained from raids was in every way superior to the gear a player could gather via pvp.
It makes of course sense to implement some kind of pvp stat then and imbue it to pvp only items, which are gathered by pvp of course. This made raid gear not suitable for pvp in the long run.
In the end, i dont believe you can change the way this system works, mainly because it is anchored deep within the current playerbase of mmos and imo rightfully so.
If you do it otherwise raiders will then again destroy everything or atleast have a minor ITEM advantage over serious pvp players. Since raiding is undoubtedly more challenging than CASUAL pvp, successful raiders do deserve better gear than some pvp player who spends time in a battleground killing brain afk players. Rewarding casual pvp players with a tier of equal gear, will kill the raid scene in any game, hurting the game hard.
PvP gear was introduced to wow simply because raiders could destroy everything in pvp due to far superior gear, received in a total different content branch within the game. The quality of loot gained from raids was in every way superior to the gear a player could gather via pvp.
It makes of course sense to implement some kind of pvp stat then and imbue it to pvp only items, which are gathered by pvp of course. This made raid gear not suitable for pvp in the long run.
In the end, i dont believe you can change the way this system works, mainly because it is anchored deep within the current playerbase of mmos and imo rightfully so.
If you do it otherwise raiders will then again destroy everything or atleast have a minor ITEM advantage over serious pvp players. Since raiding is undoubtedly more challenging than CASUAL pvp, successful raiders do deserve better gear than some pvp player who spends time in a battleground killing brain afk players. Rewarding casual pvp players with a tier of equal gear, will kill the raid scene in any game, hurting the game hard.
I think you mistake what I was trying to explain. Probably because I didn't do a good job of explaining it, but basically what I was saying is that there SHOULD be a separation of the various types of gear belonging to various types of content. Someone should not be able to put on a piece of hard mode "solo" gear (for lack of a better term) and destroy in raids or put on PVE gear and destroy in PVP. I personally agree with you that the typical system of raid gear being the best is absolutely fine, since I myself am a raider and enjoy raiding (and thereby reaping the benefits and best gear) but I am simply suggesting possible ways the system could be "tweaked" to encourage solo players to do more group content. If the desire of the majority is to provide decent gear via multiple aspects of the game, then I suppose there is a way to do it right. I don't claim to know what that is though, I'm just giving a few suggestions. I do feel that PVP gear should be completely separated from PVE gear for sure.
These suggestions are beside the point though, and the main point of this thread is choice. And the main reason raids should exist in the game at all, is choice. People should be able to have a choice in how they want to play the game. And as the poll shows, the majority of voters want some form of larger group content, which we are choosing to call raids. And I guess my secondary point is, just because you call a certain play style "raids" does not mean that it has to be implemented the exact same way as other MMORPGs. I believe there are adjustments they could make to keep people happy, but as this thread shows, everyone will never be happy.
You are assuming 100% of the player based visits this forum or even voted in this poll.
No he's not and that is not what he meant. To say this is to say that the U.S. government assumes that 100% of Medicare members take part in a Medicare survey just because the government sends one out. They know that only a random group out of the total members will fill it out. But that is not a problem for them as a significant group of random Medicare members amounts to the same thing as all of them, in the general sense, which is all we are concerned about.
This poll was voted on by a random group of forum-visiting players and the majority wants raids. I will say this again, when the amount of voters were only 60 people, until now at almost 600, the percentages have STAYED THE SAME.
In case this is unclear: This means that out of this random several hundred player "slice" of the community, it's the PERCENTAGES THAT MATTER, not the amount of voters. This is a well understood concept when doing polls and surveys.
The percentage in favor of raids was around 76% when there were around 60 voters.
The percentage in favor of raids was around 75% when there were around 300 voters.
The percentage in favor of raids is around 77% when there are almost 600 voters.
The percentage in favor of raids will still be the same even when the number of voters increases significantly.
Notice a pattern here? To assume that the results of this poll would change drastically with more voters added to the mix is to assume too much as the pattern shows otherwise.
Also, the only way the above facts would be any less true is if you assume that only a certain type of gamer visits the forums, and that is an absurd assumption as well and an obvious attempt of desperation to undermine the results of this poll. It's clear what the majority wants.
No he's not and that is not what he meant. To say this is to say that the U.S. government assumes that 100% of Medicare members take part in a Medicare survey just because the government sends one out. They know that only a random group out of the total members will fill it out. But that is not a problem for them as a significant group of random Medicare members amounts to the same thing as all of them, in the general sense, which is all we are concerned about.
This poll was voted on by a random group of forum-visiting players and the majority wants raids. I will say this again, when the amount of voters were only 60 people, until now at almost 600, the percentages have STAYED THE SAME.
In case this is unclear: This means that out of this random several hundred player "slice" of the community, it's the PERCENTAGES THAT MATTER, not the amount of voters. This is a well understood concept when doing polls and surveys.
The percentage in favor of raids was around 76% when there were around 60 voters.
The percentage in favor of raids was around 75% when there were around 300 voters.
The percentage in favor of raids is around 77% when there are almost 600 voters.
The percentage in favor of raids will still be the same even when the number of voters increases significantly.
Notice a pattern here? To assume that the results of this poll would change drastically with more voters added to the mix is to assume too much as the pattern shows otherwise.
Also, the only way the above facts would be any less true is if you assume that only a certain type of gamer visits the forums, and that is an absurd assumption as well and an obvious attempt of desperation to undermine the results of this poll. It's clear what the majority wants.
I voted for 8-10 players raid because it has enough players to feel like a raid. Too many = frustration, chaos, yelling raid leaders lol. Not enough feels like a simple adventuring group not something epic.
I think you mistake what I was trying to explain. Probably because I didn't do a good job of explaining it, but basically what I was saying is that there SHOULD be a separation of the various types of gear belonging to various types of content. Someone should not be able to put on a piece of hard mode "solo" gear (for lack of a better term) and destroy in raids or put on PVE gear and destroy in PVP. I personally agree with you that the typical system of raid gear being the best is absolutely fine, since I myself am a raider and enjoy raiding (and thereby reaping the benefits and best gear) but I am simply suggesting possible ways the system could be "tweaked" to encourage solo players to do more group content. If the desire of the majority is to provide decent gear via multiple aspects of the game, then I suppose there is a way to do it right. I don't claim to know what that is though, I'm just giving a few suggestions. I do feel that PVP gear should be completely separated from PVE gear for sure.
These suggestions are beside the point though, and the main point of this thread is choice. And the main reason raids should exist in the game at all, is choice. People should be able to have a choice in how they want to play the game. And as the poll shows, the majority of voters want some form of larger group content, which we are choosing to call raids. And I guess my secondary point is, just because you call a certain play style "raids" does not mean that it has to be implemented the exact same way as other MMORPGs. I believe there are adjustments they could make to keep people happy, but as this thread shows, everyone will never be happy.
I think the pve - pvp gear seperation is fine. And the fact that no mmo came up with a better system speaks for itself. I don't think futher gear seperations would do any good, it would just make it far more complicated, in terms of crafting, trading, gouping and of course programming. You would have to provide equal content for solo, group-size, raid-size and pvp players. The resources needed for that, would be immense.
Of course you could provide decent gear for solo epic quests and very hard 5 man instances, not as good as raid gear, but gear good enough to maybe provide a decent alternative for certain gear slots and closing the gap needed for these players to find a raid.
The game is dead in 3 months no need to implement raids .
No it will not die. Free game will also slowly attract more people. I like raids. 10 people at least and my need is satisfied though I would accept also 25 people raids.
This game will not die. You forget that many players like me has also played Neverwinter Nights and like Foundry content and I also like PvP and... sooner or later raids are released. Anyway on summer I am not so interested to play any games so I might take a holiday. However I will return to this game.
Wow, you took too much meaning from my post as it was not meant to be serious. Either way it's still an assumption from both sides, not fact.
FYI: I voted for 8-10 man raids, so I am not trying to undermine anything.
Hmm, ok well maybe next time you could say something like "Just kidding!" since people will naturally assume you are being serious unless you state otherwise because it wasn't exactly obvious from your post. lol But thanks for making that clear. As far as the assumptions, there are none on my side. Percentages are percentages, numbers are numbers, and fact is fact. The pattern shows what it shows and it's plain as day. No need to assume anything.
I think the pve - pvp gear seperation is fine. And the fact that no mmo came up with a better system speaks for itself. I don't think futher gear seperations would do any good, it would just make it far more complicated, in terms of crafting, trading, gouping and of course programming. You would have to provide equal content for solo, group-size, raid-size and pvp players. The resources needed for that, would be immense.
I agree, again I wasn't speaking of separation in terms of special stats, as with PVP/PVE gear separation, but separation in terms of gear stat levels, meaning as I said, someone should not be able to throw on some quest gear and walk into a raid. I also believe that you are right and the typical system works fine, but others do not agree so I was simply giving some suggestions on ways they could tweak the system to keep everyone happy. But asking for that is probably like asking for a million dollars, just not gonna happen. I do believe that the only gear separated in the sense you refer to should be PVP/PVE gear, but I heard that Cryptic may not design it this way.
Of course you could provide decent gear for solo epic quests and very hard 5 man instances, not as good as raid gear, but gear good enough to maybe provide a decent alternative for certain gear slots and closing the gap needed for these players to find a raid.
Good suggestions. It will be interesting to see how they implement them.
No it will not die. Free game will also slowly attract more people. I like raids. 10 people at least and my need is satisfied though I would accept also 25 people raids.
This game will not die. You forget that many players like me has also played Neverwinter Nights and like Foundry content and I also like PvP and... sooner or later raids are released. Anyway on summer I am not so interested to play any games so I might take a holiday. However I will return to this game.
Many feel the same, but saying the game will not die is an assumption, sorry to be a wet blanket, but just saying there is no way to know yet how successful it will be until several months down the road at the very least. A lot depends on a game's success, and just because you may or may not play this game does not mean the same for everyone.
To say the game will fail is also an assumption, but I can tell you this, the more options and choice a game has, the more successful it will be, and raiding is yet another option, so it can only server to reinforce an already decent game. If they start making bigger, less linear maps, less linear quests, more progression / customization options, and maybe even somewhat less instanced travel, this game would be amazing.
If anyone has any more input or information regarding raids (or more simply, greater than 5 man content in any form regardless of what it's called) please don't hesitate to share it here.
0
ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited April 2013
Gauntlgrym is a raid type area with multiple objectives, 20 man teams, PvE, then 20v20 pvp, then a regular 5 man dungeon delve.
I am pretty confident at this point that if they have gone to all the effort to put in a 20 v 20 PvP area, that some kind of raid content will be added at some point.
Not only we need raid content, but we need harder content with good difficulty to provide us some challenge. Right now, all seems to be on easy mode. This game will die fast if there won't be some quality endgame to keep players entertained.
I agree about easy mode. Make encounters more challenging. The game is still fun IMO but yeah, less easy mode and more actual skill based fights. Some of the boss fights are ok though mob fights are always a faceroll.
As far as raids, yeah the word on the street and from the devs is yes, there will be raids. Just a matter of time. I'd say they need to work on fixing quest issues and other bugs first though. I'm in no rush ATM for raids.
0
thevlakaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
What's the need for raids anyway?
All gear is BoE regardless so every twit can run around in the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with little effort just buy spending some real cash.
What's the need for raids anyway?
All gear is BoE regardless so every twit can run around in the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with little effort just buy spending some real cash.
Uh, has this been confirmed and do you have a link? If they allowed you to just buy the same gear you can get from completing a raid boss, then I'll stop playing tomorrow. But I highly doubt they would plan on doing this because every single raider would have less incentive to doing raids. The gear is half the fun.
Comments
As you say, the quality of loot should go hand in hand with the encounter, therefore you would have high level solo content with equal level gear rewards, ultra hard mode 5 man content with equal level gear rewards, and raids with their raid level gear rewards.
If someone does not raid and does not enjoy raiding, they should not even be interested in raid gear because they only need raid gear to do raids in the first place. And they certainly shouldn't feel forced to do raids just for gear if they aren't a raider or part of a raid guild. Why would someone want "raid gear" if they don't raid? If they do want raid gear, then they should learn to raid.
Makes sense to me.
It all depends on what you define as "best gear." Each type of "best gear" should be unique to it's own type of content. This means that the people who aren't interested in a certain type of content should not be interested in it's gear.
This means that the best gear in the entire game would not be restricted to just raid rewards because the gear that is restricted to raid rewards should only be "raid gear."
Very true. I myself am actually not a fan of separating gear using the same method as PVP / PVE gear. That is not what I am suggesting if you got that impression. I am simply saying that there is a separation that already exists in terms of stats. But I do see what you are suggesting. Basically separate the various types of gear using either it's overall stats or set bonuses.
I guess this means that while attaining a certain type of gear would help you in most other game activities, using the gear for the type of activity it was meant for would help you even more. So don't penalize people for using the gear outside of it's intended content, rather reward people when using the gear inside of that content. Some people might see this as amounting to the same thing, but it's not. In most MMORPGs if you throw on some PVP gear and step into a dungeon or raid, your going to suck. Here I'm saying you wouldn't suck because there wouldn't be as much of a separation between gear types in this sense. Here I am suggesting that all gear be viable when playing any type of content BUT if you use raid gear in a raid, you would see a significant bonus in terms of stats, and possibly another bonus when equipping the set.
I don't know, just a few ideas.
PvP gear was introduced to wow simply because raiders could destroy everything in pvp due to far superior gear, received in a total different content branch within the game. The quality of loot gained from raids was in every way superior to the gear a player could gather via pvp.
It makes of course sense to implement some kind of pvp stat then and imbue it to pvp only items, which are gathered by pvp of course. This made raid gear not suitable for pvp in the long run.
In the end, i dont believe you can change the way this system works, mainly because it is anchored deep within the current playerbase of mmos and imo rightfully so.
If you do it otherwise raiders will then again destroy everything or atleast have a minor ITEM advantage over serious pvp players. Since raiding is undoubtedly more challenging than CASUAL pvp, successful raiders do deserve better gear than some pvp player who spends time in a battleground killing brain afk players. Rewarding casual pvp players with a tier of equal gear, will kill the raid scene in any game, hurting the game hard.
GUESS WHAT TO DO NEXT THEN.
I think you mistake what I was trying to explain. Probably because I didn't do a good job of explaining it, but basically what I was saying is that there SHOULD be a separation of the various types of gear belonging to various types of content. Someone should not be able to put on a piece of hard mode "solo" gear (for lack of a better term) and destroy in raids or put on PVE gear and destroy in PVP. I personally agree with you that the typical system of raid gear being the best is absolutely fine, since I myself am a raider and enjoy raiding (and thereby reaping the benefits and best gear) but I am simply suggesting possible ways the system could be "tweaked" to encourage solo players to do more group content. If the desire of the majority is to provide decent gear via multiple aspects of the game, then I suppose there is a way to do it right. I don't claim to know what that is though, I'm just giving a few suggestions. I do feel that PVP gear should be completely separated from PVE gear for sure.
These suggestions are beside the point though, and the main point of this thread is choice. And the main reason raids should exist in the game at all, is choice. People should be able to have a choice in how they want to play the game. And as the poll shows, the majority of voters want some form of larger group content, which we are choosing to call raids. And I guess my secondary point is, just because you call a certain play style "raids" does not mean that it has to be implemented the exact same way as other MMORPGs. I believe there are adjustments they could make to keep people happy, but as this thread shows, everyone will never be happy.
You are assuming 100% of the player based visits this forum or even voted in this poll.
I would rather them fix current content before adding new TBH
No he's not and that is not what he meant. To say this is to say that the U.S. government assumes that 100% of Medicare members take part in a Medicare survey just because the government sends one out. They know that only a random group out of the total members will fill it out. But that is not a problem for them as a significant group of random Medicare members amounts to the same thing as all of them, in the general sense, which is all we are concerned about.
This poll was voted on by a random group of forum-visiting players and the majority wants raids. I will say this again, when the amount of voters were only 60 people, until now at almost 600, the percentages have STAYED THE SAME.
In case this is unclear: This means that out of this random several hundred player "slice" of the community, it's the PERCENTAGES THAT MATTER, not the amount of voters. This is a well understood concept when doing polls and surveys.
The percentage in favor of raids was around 76% when there were around 60 voters.
The percentage in favor of raids was around 75% when there were around 300 voters.
The percentage in favor of raids is around 77% when there are almost 600 voters.
The percentage in favor of raids will still be the same even when the number of voters increases significantly.
Notice a pattern here? To assume that the results of this poll would change drastically with more voters added to the mix is to assume too much as the pattern shows otherwise.
Also, the only way the above facts would be any less true is if you assume that only a certain type of gamer visits the forums, and that is an absurd assumption as well and an obvious attempt of desperation to undermine the results of this poll. It's clear what the majority wants.
FYI: I voted for 8-10 man raids, so I am not trying to undermine anything.
I think the pve - pvp gear seperation is fine. And the fact that no mmo came up with a better system speaks for itself. I don't think futher gear seperations would do any good, it would just make it far more complicated, in terms of crafting, trading, gouping and of course programming. You would have to provide equal content for solo, group-size, raid-size and pvp players. The resources needed for that, would be immense.
Of course you could provide decent gear for solo epic quests and very hard 5 man instances, not as good as raid gear, but gear good enough to maybe provide a decent alternative for certain gear slots and closing the gap needed for these players to find a raid.
Noooo, I need it to live for 7 months or I'm screwed!
This game will not die. You forget that many players like me has also played Neverwinter Nights and like Foundry content and I also like PvP and... sooner or later raids are released. Anyway on summer I am not so interested to play any games so I might take a holiday. However I will return to this game.
Hmm, ok well maybe next time you could say something like "Just kidding!" since people will naturally assume you are being serious unless you state otherwise because it wasn't exactly obvious from your post. lol But thanks for making that clear. As far as the assumptions, there are none on my side. Percentages are percentages, numbers are numbers, and fact is fact. The pattern shows what it shows and it's plain as day. No need to assume anything.
Good suggestions. It will be interesting to see how they implement them.
Many feel the same, but saying the game will not die is an assumption, sorry to be a wet blanket, but just saying there is no way to know yet how successful it will be until several months down the road at the very least. A lot depends on a game's success, and just because you may or may not play this game does not mean the same for everyone.
To say the game will fail is also an assumption, but I can tell you this, the more options and choice a game has, the more successful it will be, and raiding is yet another option, so it can only server to reinforce an already decent game. If they start making bigger, less linear maps, less linear quests, more progression / customization options, and maybe even somewhat less instanced travel, this game would be amazing.
Is this an in game zone currently? And when you say "20 man teams" are you referring to PVE dungeons or what? I'm confused. Need more info.
60 Drow Trickster Rogue
11 Elf Control Wizard
Server: Beholder
Guild: Praetor Lupus
Guild Website: http://www.PraetorLupus.com
Hero of the North & Guardian of Neverwinter Founder.
Anyone rogues out there having trouble with Jareth Grim? See post on this here: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?172051-Jareth-Grim-amp-Rogues&p=2408611#post2408611
As far as raids, yeah the word on the street and from the devs is yes, there will be raids. Just a matter of time. I'd say they need to work on fixing quest issues and other bugs first though. I'm in no rush ATM for raids.
All gear is BoE regardless so every twit can run around in the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with little effort just buy spending some real cash.
Uh, has this been confirmed and do you have a link? If they allowed you to just buy the same gear you can get from completing a raid boss, then I'll stop playing tomorrow. But I highly doubt they would plan on doing this because every single raider would have less incentive to doing raids. The gear is half the fun.