Excellent article written about raiding and I have to agree. If PWE took these ideas to heart when implementing their raids, we'd be golden:
"Here's the core of the issue: It's not that raiding is inherently an evil activity. I pointed out that this starts off as being something fun, and it's the cycle of repeated content and personal obligation that really kills that joy. But for some people these things are fun, and the content should exist for those people.
Over the past several years we've seen the idea introduced that everyone should get to raid, especially in World of Warcraft. It's a well-meaning sentiment that also completely misses the point. By making the whole endgame raid content more approachable, you make everyone less happy.
People who genuinely enjoy raiding are less happy because content gets easier and easier. The challenge of it is part of what you enjoyed. You wanted having a boss on farm status to really be an accomplishment, something you worked hard to achieve; now it's just a rote thing. You didn't mind complicated processes to get into raids, requirements for certain players and classes, all of the parts that non-raiders found tedious. That was stuff you enjoyed.
Meanwhile, people who don't naturally like raiding are less happy because you're being told to like something. The inaccessibility and all that was just a part of the puzzle; at the end of the day, you just aren't fond of that particular style of play. Except now you're more and more expected to raid, and not doing so means you're stuck in the cold with nothing more to do. This is the endgame, and it's so easy, why aren't you doing it?
Is this functional? At times. A lot of people wind up being not entirely unhappy. But it also isn't a good idea because it's based on several archaic notions all rolled into one.
First of all, not wanting to take part in big group endgame content does not mean you aren't social or engaged with other players. I joked for a long while that I've been playing Star Wars: The Old Republic since launch and hadn't clocked in a single Operation achievement. This didn't mean I wasn't social or invested with other players; anyone who has seen me roleplay knows how much I juggle varied character relationships and find time to quest with friends or otherwise hang out. Disliking the raiding formula does not mean I'm not invested in a community.
Games also don't need to stymie your progress to encourage you to keep playing. There's a delicate balance, always, between making sure you can't see all of the game in a single day and ensuring that you're not bored, and part of that comes through slowing down progress. But slow it down enough and the game starts becoming an exercise in boring repetition. If you find fighting bosses over and over to optimize strategy fun, that's great. If you don't, however, the need to do so should not be the only thing keeping you in the game because otherwise you are going to leave at the first opportunity.
Perhaps most importantly, there are other ways to make an endgame. There are ways to make solo content interesting, to provide nifty new challenges to PvP and PvE players without trivializing what raiding players are doing for fun. (In fairness to Star Wars: The Old Republic, the game does a better job than many titles of giving me something to do without big group content.) If you remove the carrot of "all the stuff worth doing is locked behind a raid wall," some people will still raid, but you can give that carrot to people who like doing other things just as easily.
These lessons are things that WildStar seems to have taken to heart. I say "seems" only because the game is still in testing, and it remains to be seen how all of the promises we've been given will play out in the long run. But we know what the design goals are. We know that the developers want us playing the game however we find fun, and we've been told that there will be an endgame there no matter what we think is fun.
Like PvP? There's stuff in place for epic PvP of several varieties. Like to solo? There's an ongoing story, there are path activities, and there will be new things to explore. Like to craft? I can only assume we'll have some crafting carrots. Like raiding? Then you will be greeted by raids that are hard, and intense, and built for people who want to be there, not the people who have nothing else to do."
LOL And if you thought it was supposed to represent 100 percent then you're missing the point of a poll. A survey or poll is never meant to represent 100 percent, how could it? No it represents a "slice" of the community which represents what the majority want because the people who vote are a random part of the whole, which again, represents the majority. If you don't understand how polls such as U.S. surveys work, look it up. I seriously am not going to take the time to write 10 paragraphs on it. Stop trying to minimize the results of the poll just because you don't like what it means.
I may have phrased that in an overly simplistic way, but sorry, I know what I'm talking about. In focused polling with a small sample size, respondents are selected from a variety of social groups to minimize the error, so that by looking at the "slice" you can make reasonable assumptions about the "whole". You know, the entire purpose of polling as such, and what you were doing in that post of yours I originally quoted.
You don't just take 1000 random people off the street, much less in the same neighborhood. That's what the forum poll equivalent to - taking 1000 people who live on the same street and asking their opinion. Even worse, there's no way to ensure people vote only once, as accounts are free and not tied to personal info. But I'll give it to you, your poll may reasonably represent the opinion of the forum users. But it shows little about the opinion of the entire user base.
I also won't go into how "7.6 out of 10 people want larger group content" is an assumption so broad it's wrong, or why "Statistics don't lie" is a BS statement. So either YOU don't know how polling works, or are purposefully misrepresenting the numbers to prove your point. I work in politics in a third-world country, I've seen this more times than I can count.
It's not that I don't see the upside of raids. I do! I enjoy raiding in every game in which I've tried it. I foresee some issues with raiding in this game though. You reach the final boss room, an ancient lich wielding the eye of Vecna, something like that. The 10, or 12, or 20 member raid charges in, screaming battle cries and profanity and so forth. The mighty lich.... summons 48 thousand adds. Because that's what they do. adds are out of control on most bosses right now. Double, quadruple your party size and it'll be World War Z, Neverwinter edition. Just sayin.
Hmm, never understood the attraction of herding cats, er, I mean raiding.
But, then, that's why I avoid them (I think I raided twice - both easy "boxed raids" in Wrath - in 6 years of WoW). The lack of gear never bothered me.... only thing that really did was missing out on all the scenery (both the architecture of the raid zones, and the storyline progression). Kind of wish there had been a "tour the zone" mode added for outdated raids.... you know, wander through the area, no mobs or loot at all.
I recently read that Blizzard is setting up a new raid system for WoW. All you need is 10 to 25 players in a raid, and the mobs and bosses will scale depending on how many players you need! THAT IS PURE GENIUS!!!! Why did it take over 8 years for Blizzard to implement that into WoW?
IMHO, I think Cryptic should aim at doing the same thing! Because barely anyone did 25-mans! It was too hard to organize and they dropped the same kinda loot as 10-man! But sometimes 1 person can't make it, so we gotta invite a random guildmate to fill in the spot. Or what about other members who joined late or couldn't make it into the Core group? We lost many members because they joined another guild who had a spot in their 10-man guild!
But now, you could be 12 people, or 21, or 17! It won't matter anymore! Just invite whoever wants to raid, the mobs and bosses will scale, everyone is happy, no one will feel left out because the raid group is "full". If 1 night only 15 people wanna raid, then all 15 people can raid. If another night only 11 can raid, well all 11 can raid!
That's why I don't agree on any of the Poll Answers at all! I don't only want 5-mans, I don't only want 8-10 player content, I don't only want 15-20 player content! The moment you set a limit, players are always gonna struggle to reach that limit and once they do reach the limit, they are gonna have to start excluding people! But when you give players a range, like 10 to 25, then it's less stressful, everyone is happy and there's no drama!
10 man content is ideal, any more and it just ends up being a mob...
0
sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2013
I would assume many of us have organized a raid or two (or dozen) in many other MMO before this one.
10+ raiding IS fun only when you have people who are willing to listen to the leader and coordinate.
It usually take a guild and good coordination (for all members) to pull this off. The problem is that the more people you add to the mix, the harder this job becomes and the longer it will take.
The other issue is loot. Current system would pretty much "kill" raid level. Need/Greed/Pass system won't work too tell without proper coordination. If there is a "smart loot" system then it "may work"
What is a smart loot system?
When an item drop, it will check if the player class match AND if he/she already have the item. If the person already has the loot (inventory or bank. It would be nice if it check mail and AH, but that will get messy) then the that player would not be able to loot/roll need for it (can greed)
another system would be people would get token for completion and turn in for their own loot (that way everyone wins)
I may have phrased that in an overly simplistic way, but sorry, I know what I'm talking about. In focused polling with a small sample size, respondents are selected from a variety of social groups to minimize the error, so that by looking at the "slice" you can make reasonable assumptions about the "whole". You know, the entire purpose of polling as such, and what you were doing in that post of yours I originally quoted.
You don't just take 1000 random people off the street, much less in the same neighborhood. That's what the forum poll equivalent to - taking 1000 people who live on the same street and asking their opinion. Even worse, there's no way to ensure people vote only once, as accounts are free and not tied to personal info. But I'll give it to you, your poll may reasonably represent the opinion of the forum users. But it shows little about the opinion of the entire user base.
I also won't go into how "7.6 out of 10 people want larger group content" is an assumption so broad it's wrong, or why "Statistics don't lie" is a BS statement. So either YOU don't know how polling works, or are purposefully misrepresenting the numbers to prove your point. I work in politics in a third-world country, I've seen this more times than I can count..
First off, you provide no information on WHY gamers who read the main game forum website supposedly have so much in common that they would effectively represent the SAME type of gamer who live on the same street. Why do you assume just because they all came to read the forums that they are the same??? THAT my friend is a misrepresentation and an absurd argument with no logical reasoning to back it up. Most gamers I know (and that's a lot, some who raid, some who don't) ALL visit the forums from time to time for many different reasons. To say they are the same and not random just because they came to forum for one reason or another is just stupid logic. Sorry.
Oh, and how on earth could I have purposely set out to misrepresent anything when I'm not the one adding these votes, but the random users who come to read these forums, saw a vote on raids and just so happened to decide to vote? How on earth is that MY misrepresentation? You are the only one misrepresenting information by your illogical arguments.
Oh and if you really think someone would go to the inconvenient trouble of creating another account just to be able to vote twice is also a huge stretch. I'm also pretty sure that since you have one main PWE account, you couldn't just create another Neverwinter user under that same main account and vote twice. But seriously, to use this notion to undermine the poll results is a desparate stretch that is just as unrealistic as your other ideas that don't make sense. lol
And how is it an assumption to say "7.6 out of 10 people want larger group content" when at the time the poll results showed 76% people wanted raids as opposed to no raids? I was simply going by the numbers. If you undermine the results of this post to suit your opinions, then you'd have to do the same for every single Poll on this forum. Basically you are saying that all Polls are meaningless here. That is also an absurd notion.
The results are even higher now in favor of raids (80%) with even more votes than before... and if you are still trying to say it's meaningless then you are either deceiving yourself, or attempting to deceive everyone else just because you don't like the results because you don't like raids.
I would assume many of us have organized a raid or two (or dozen) in many other MMO before this one.
10+ raiding IS fun only when you have people who are willing to listen to the leader and coordinate.
It usually take a guild and good coordination (for all members) to pull this off. The problem is that the more people you add to the mix, the harder this job becomes and the longer it will take.
The other issue is loot. Current system would pretty much "kill" raid level. Need/Greed/Pass system won't work too tell without proper coordination. If there is a "smart loot" system then it "may work"
What is a smart loot system?
When an item drop, it will check if the player class match AND if he/she already have the item. If the person already has the loot (inventory or bank. It would be nice if it check mail and AH, but that will get messy) then the that player would not be able to loot/roll need for it (can greed)
another system would be people would get token for completion and turn in for their own loot (that way everyone wins)
10 man content is ideal, any more and it just ends up being a mob...
I agree for the most part, although I have been part of 20 man content that was a blast. It was usually the 20 man raids that really required us to work as a team and coordinate, and with a good guild and good players, that is a very fun thing to be part of. For people who enjoy it of course. But for this particular game I would recommend 10 man at the most.
I recently read that Blizzard is setting up a new raid system for WoW. All you need is 10 to 25 players in a raid, and the mobs and bosses will scale depending on how many players you need! THAT IS PURE GENIUS!!!! Why did it take over 8 years for Blizzard to implement that into WoW?
IMHO, I think Cryptic should aim at doing the same thing! Because barely anyone did 25-mans! It was too hard to organize and they dropped the same kinda loot as 10-man! But sometimes 1 person can't make it, so we gotta invite a random guildmate to fill in the spot. Or what about other members who joined late or couldn't make it into the Core group? We lost many members because they joined another guild who had a spot in their 10-man guild!
But now, you could be 12 people, or 21, or 17! It won't matter anymore! Just invite whoever wants to raid, the mobs and bosses will scale, everyone is happy, no one will feel left out because the raid group is "full". If 1 night only 15 people wanna raid, then all 15 people can raid. If another night only 11 can raid, well all 11 can raid!
That's why I don't agree on any of the Poll Answers at all! I don't only want 5-mans, I don't only want 8-10 player content, I don't only want 15-20 player content! The moment you set a limit, players are always gonna struggle to reach that limit and once they do reach the limit, they are gonna have to start excluding people! But when you give players a range, like 10 to 25, then it's less stressful, everyone is happy and there's no drama!
Yeah if im not mistaken GW2 did the same thing, but it wasn't in raids as much as it was in their zone events. I think this is a good idea as well that makes things more dynamic and realistic. After all, in real life if the enemy brought more man power to fight, you would do the same to match their forces. So why not in a game? This is just another way to make things less static and more dynamic and intuitive. Good idea.
Hmm, never understood the attraction of herding cats, er, I mean raiding.
But, then, that's why I avoid them (I think I raided twice - both easy "boxed raids" in Wrath - in 6 years of WoW). The lack of gear never bothered me.... only thing that really did was missing out on all the scenery (both the architecture of the raid zones, and the storyline progression). Kind of wish there had been a "tour the zone" mode added for outdated raids.... you know, wander through the area, no mobs or loot at all.
Hmm *scratches head* ok. I guess I personally don't have the most fun by just viewing "scenery" but rather coordinating with a team to defeat an objective, working as a team, and having fun together with other like minded players. This is anything but "herding cattle" unless those were the types of guilds and raids you experienced. But it's absolutely not the norm if you are referring to good raiding guilds with good, mature players who enjoy raiding.
Well a lot of games don't have 25 - 40 man raids so I was making the assumption that it would be very unlikely for PWE to implement such large raids in NW. I personally feel that a good number would be 10-15 man raids for this particular game, but that 20 man wouldn't necessarily be out of the question if it could work. I mean most dungeons are sized for smaller groups and they would really have to design things differently for 20+ players. The graphics and technology and dynamics and mechanics would all have to be modified for this many players. Not saying it couldn't be done though.
The reason I don't expect raids in Neverwinter is the fact that there is simply no evidence or even precedence for their addition. The game currently has nothing even close to raid support - Gauntlgrym has one of the most awkward methods of grouping players I have ever seen. None of the abilities are designed with raids in mind - stacking debuffs and buffs would be out of control, and more to the point, none of Cryptic's previous games have implemented raids, which is a bit of a problem as all of them use the same engine. I don't think it's going to happen simply because they have intentionally designed the game around 5 man content.
0
ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
First off, you provide no information on WHY gamers who read the main game forum website supposedly have so much in common that they would effectively represent the SAME type of gamer who live on the same street. Why do you assume just because they all came to read the forums that they are the same??? THAT my friend is a misrepresentation and an absurd argument with no logical reasoning to back it up. Most gamers I know (and that's a lot, some who raid, some who don't) ALL visit the forums from time to time for many different reasons. To say they are the same and not random just because they came to forum for one reason or another is just stupid logic. Sorry.
I've played MMOs long enough to know that there's enough of a group of gamers who don't visit forums at all, with opinions that usually differ significantly from the forum-goers'. And it's common knowledge that people tend to visit forums with negative feedback more often than positive, etc. Sorry this is anecdotal evidence, but it's as anecdotal as yours, and frankly the burden of proof is on the person trying to present statistics, not vice versa, which would be you in this case.
Oh, and how on earth could I have purposely set out to misrepresent anything when I'm not the one adding these votes, but the random users who come to read these forums, saw a vote on raids and just so happened to decide to vote? How on earth is that MY misrepresentation? You are the only one misrepresenting information by your illogical arguments.
So you just don't know better then, sorry for implying malicious intent. No less dangerous though, probably more.
And how is it an assumption to say "7.6 out of 10 people want larger group content" when at the time the poll results showed 76% people wanted raids as opposed to no raids? I was simply going by the numbers. If you undermine the results of this post to suit your opinions, then you'd have to do the same for every single Poll on this forum. Basically you are saying that all Polls are meaningless here. That is also an absurd notion.
Yup, polls on gaming forums tend to be fairly meaningless, sorry. Same goes for online petitions and such. Besides, studies are only as useful as their margin of error and significance are. Here, we know neither, so it's pointless for most purposes.
Here's the thing: the poll doesn't show that "76% people want raids as opposed to no raids", it show that "76% people WHO VOTED want raids as opposed to no raids". Until you can reliably link the two, your data is just a collection of numbers.
The results are even higher now in favor of raids (80%) with even more votes than before... and if you are still trying to say it's meaningless then you are either deceiving yourself, or attempting to deceive everyone else just because you don't like the results because you don't like raids.
I actually like raids, I'm just trying to prevent you from misleading others due to your lack of understanding of basic statistics and polling mechanisms.
Drama over slots
Drama over gear
Drama over dkp
Drama organising people
Drama finding people to slot
Drama enjoying RL becuase if u miss a run you may miss loot or dkp or your position to a better player
Eliteism
Epeenism
Alienation of the vast majority of the playerbase who will never see the best content.
Guild splits
Acrimony
Time sink
Drama over slots
Drama over gear
Drama over dkp
Drama organising people
Drama finding people to slot
Drama enjoying RL becuase if u miss a run you may miss loot or dkp or your position to a better player
Eliteism
Epeenism
Alienation of the vast majority of the playerbase who will never see the best content.
Guild splits
Acrimony
Time sink
Worst mmo game style.
Bad Bad Bad
Agree with this 100%
Also to note, how many Cryptic games have raid content? That would be a big zero. And that includes games that have been out for years now. As it currently stands, there is very little evidence that this is a situation that is going to change.
Comments
"Here's the core of the issue: It's not that raiding is inherently an evil activity. I pointed out that this starts off as being something fun, and it's the cycle of repeated content and personal obligation that really kills that joy. But for some people these things are fun, and the content should exist for those people.
Over the past several years we've seen the idea introduced that everyone should get to raid, especially in World of Warcraft. It's a well-meaning sentiment that also completely misses the point. By making the whole endgame raid content more approachable, you make everyone less happy.
People who genuinely enjoy raiding are less happy because content gets easier and easier. The challenge of it is part of what you enjoyed. You wanted having a boss on farm status to really be an accomplishment, something you worked hard to achieve; now it's just a rote thing. You didn't mind complicated processes to get into raids, requirements for certain players and classes, all of the parts that non-raiders found tedious. That was stuff you enjoyed.
Meanwhile, people who don't naturally like raiding are less happy because you're being told to like something. The inaccessibility and all that was just a part of the puzzle; at the end of the day, you just aren't fond of that particular style of play. Except now you're more and more expected to raid, and not doing so means you're stuck in the cold with nothing more to do. This is the endgame, and it's so easy, why aren't you doing it?
Is this functional? At times. A lot of people wind up being not entirely unhappy. But it also isn't a good idea because it's based on several archaic notions all rolled into one.
First of all, not wanting to take part in big group endgame content does not mean you aren't social or engaged with other players. I joked for a long while that I've been playing Star Wars: The Old Republic since launch and hadn't clocked in a single Operation achievement. This didn't mean I wasn't social or invested with other players; anyone who has seen me roleplay knows how much I juggle varied character relationships and find time to quest with friends or otherwise hang out. Disliking the raiding formula does not mean I'm not invested in a community.
Games also don't need to stymie your progress to encourage you to keep playing. There's a delicate balance, always, between making sure you can't see all of the game in a single day and ensuring that you're not bored, and part of that comes through slowing down progress. But slow it down enough and the game starts becoming an exercise in boring repetition. If you find fighting bosses over and over to optimize strategy fun, that's great. If you don't, however, the need to do so should not be the only thing keeping you in the game because otherwise you are going to leave at the first opportunity.
Perhaps most importantly, there are other ways to make an endgame. There are ways to make solo content interesting, to provide nifty new challenges to PvP and PvE players without trivializing what raiding players are doing for fun. (In fairness to Star Wars: The Old Republic, the game does a better job than many titles of giving me something to do without big group content.) If you remove the carrot of "all the stuff worth doing is locked behind a raid wall," some people will still raid, but you can give that carrot to people who like doing other things just as easily.
These lessons are things that WildStar seems to have taken to heart. I say "seems" only because the game is still in testing, and it remains to be seen how all of the promises we've been given will play out in the long run. But we know what the design goals are. We know that the developers want us playing the game however we find fun, and we've been told that there will be an endgame there no matter what we think is fun.
Like PvP? There's stuff in place for epic PvP of several varieties. Like to solo? There's an ongoing story, there are path activities, and there will be new things to explore. Like to craft? I can only assume we'll have some crafting carrots. Like raiding? Then you will be greeted by raids that are hard, and intense, and built for people who want to be there, not the people who have nothing else to do."
You don't just take 1000 random people off the street, much less in the same neighborhood. That's what the forum poll equivalent to - taking 1000 people who live on the same street and asking their opinion. Even worse, there's no way to ensure people vote only once, as accounts are free and not tied to personal info. But I'll give it to you, your poll may reasonably represent the opinion of the forum users. But it shows little about the opinion of the entire user base.
I also won't go into how "7.6 out of 10 people want larger group content" is an assumption so broad it's wrong, or why "Statistics don't lie" is a BS statement. So either YOU don't know how polling works, or are purposefully misrepresenting the numbers to prove your point. I work in politics in a third-world country, I've seen this more times than I can count.
But, then, that's why I avoid them (I think I raided twice - both easy "boxed raids" in Wrath - in 6 years of WoW). The lack of gear never bothered me.... only thing that really did was missing out on all the scenery (both the architecture of the raid zones, and the storyline progression). Kind of wish there had been a "tour the zone" mode added for outdated raids.... you know, wander through the area, no mobs or loot at all.
IMHO, I think Cryptic should aim at doing the same thing! Because barely anyone did 25-mans! It was too hard to organize and they dropped the same kinda loot as 10-man! But sometimes 1 person can't make it, so we gotta invite a random guildmate to fill in the spot. Or what about other members who joined late or couldn't make it into the Core group? We lost many members because they joined another guild who had a spot in their 10-man guild!
But now, you could be 12 people, or 21, or 17! It won't matter anymore! Just invite whoever wants to raid, the mobs and bosses will scale, everyone is happy, no one will feel left out because the raid group is "full". If 1 night only 15 people wanna raid, then all 15 people can raid. If another night only 11 can raid, well all 11 can raid!
That's why I don't agree on any of the Poll Answers at all! I don't only want 5-mans, I don't only want 8-10 player content, I don't only want 15-20 player content! The moment you set a limit, players are always gonna struggle to reach that limit and once they do reach the limit, they are gonna have to start excluding people! But when you give players a range, like 10 to 25, then it's less stressful, everyone is happy and there's no drama!
10+ raiding IS fun only when you have people who are willing to listen to the leader and coordinate.
It usually take a guild and good coordination (for all members) to pull this off. The problem is that the more people you add to the mix, the harder this job becomes and the longer it will take.
The other issue is loot. Current system would pretty much "kill" raid level. Need/Greed/Pass system won't work too tell without proper coordination. If there is a "smart loot" system then it "may work"
What is a smart loot system?
When an item drop, it will check if the player class match AND if he/she already have the item. If the person already has the loot (inventory or bank. It would be nice if it check mail and AH, but that will get messy) then the that player would not be able to loot/roll need for it (can greed)
another system would be people would get token for completion and turn in for their own loot (that way everyone wins)
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
First off, you provide no information on WHY gamers who read the main game forum website supposedly have so much in common that they would effectively represent the SAME type of gamer who live on the same street. Why do you assume just because they all came to read the forums that they are the same??? THAT my friend is a misrepresentation and an absurd argument with no logical reasoning to back it up. Most gamers I know (and that's a lot, some who raid, some who don't) ALL visit the forums from time to time for many different reasons. To say they are the same and not random just because they came to forum for one reason or another is just stupid logic. Sorry.
Oh, and how on earth could I have purposely set out to misrepresent anything when I'm not the one adding these votes, but the random users who come to read these forums, saw a vote on raids and just so happened to decide to vote? How on earth is that MY misrepresentation? You are the only one misrepresenting information by your illogical arguments.
Oh and if you really think someone would go to the inconvenient trouble of creating another account just to be able to vote twice is also a huge stretch. I'm also pretty sure that since you have one main PWE account, you couldn't just create another Neverwinter user under that same main account and vote twice. But seriously, to use this notion to undermine the poll results is a desparate stretch that is just as unrealistic as your other ideas that don't make sense. lol
And how is it an assumption to say "7.6 out of 10 people want larger group content" when at the time the poll results showed 76% people wanted raids as opposed to no raids? I was simply going by the numbers. If you undermine the results of this post to suit your opinions, then you'd have to do the same for every single Poll on this forum. Basically you are saying that all Polls are meaningless here. That is also an absurd notion.
The results are even higher now in favor of raids (80%) with even more votes than before... and if you are still trying to say it's meaningless then you are either deceiving yourself, or attempting to deceive everyone else just because you don't like the results because you don't like raids.
Good points, thanks.
I agree for the most part, although I have been part of 20 man content that was a blast. It was usually the 20 man raids that really required us to work as a team and coordinate, and with a good guild and good players, that is a very fun thing to be part of. For people who enjoy it of course. But for this particular game I would recommend 10 man at the most.
Yeah if im not mistaken GW2 did the same thing, but it wasn't in raids as much as it was in their zone events. I think this is a good idea as well that makes things more dynamic and realistic. After all, in real life if the enemy brought more man power to fight, you would do the same to match their forces. So why not in a game? This is just another way to make things less static and more dynamic and intuitive. Good idea.
Hmm *scratches head* ok. I guess I personally don't have the most fun by just viewing "scenery" but rather coordinating with a team to defeat an objective, working as a team, and having fun together with other like minded players. This is anything but "herding cattle" unless those were the types of guilds and raids you experienced. But it's absolutely not the norm if you are referring to good raiding guilds with good, mature players who enjoy raiding.
Well a lot of games don't have 25 - 40 man raids so I was making the assumption that it would be very unlikely for PWE to implement such large raids in NW. I personally feel that a good number would be 10-15 man raids for this particular game, but that 20 man wouldn't necessarily be out of the question if it could work. I mean most dungeons are sized for smaller groups and they would really have to design things differently for 20+ players. The graphics and technology and dynamics and mechanics would all have to be modified for this many players. Not saying it couldn't be done though.
So you just don't know better then, sorry for implying malicious intent. No less dangerous though, probably more.
Yup, polls on gaming forums tend to be fairly meaningless, sorry. Same goes for online petitions and such. Besides, studies are only as useful as their margin of error and significance are. Here, we know neither, so it's pointless for most purposes.
Here's the thing: the poll doesn't show that "76% people want raids as opposed to no raids", it show that "76% people WHO VOTED want raids as opposed to no raids". Until you can reliably link the two, your data is just a collection of numbers.
I actually like raids, I'm just trying to prevent you from misleading others due to your lack of understanding of basic statistics and polling mechanisms.
Every game i played with large raids was either
Drama over slots
Drama over gear
Drama over dkp
Drama organising people
Drama finding people to slot
Drama enjoying RL becuase if u miss a run you may miss loot or dkp or your position to a better player
Eliteism
Epeenism
Alienation of the vast majority of the playerbase who will never see the best content.
Guild splits
Acrimony
Time sink
Worst mmo game style.
Bad Bad Bad
Agree with this 100%
Also to note, how many Cryptic games have raid content? That would be a big zero. And that includes games that have been out for years now. As it currently stands, there is very little evidence that this is a situation that is going to change.