I enjoy raids as much as the next guy, and I have come from everquest raids(72+) to wow raids (40, 15, 10 and 25 man raids)
I have to say that larger is not better at all. More people = more confusion, more time spent managing the raid the actually raiding.
In EQ, it took us 2-3 hours to setup the raid, and the use of chat channels, groups and ect (before voip when people on dial up) and it was a nightmare, plus you never knew all 72 people, you knew your small group of friends.
Wow, 40 man raids, normally meant, 10-15 people were either afk or not paying attention, 10 or so people were just doing poor jobs ( as it was hard to tell back then) Plus they take forever, and harder raids require more people not HAMSTER up ect ect.
More people required, means bigger guilds and less people can do them over all. Its easier to bring two groups together then 5 groups.
Personally the best raid experiences i had was wow 10 mans. gave enough spots for one of every class, and everyone had to be on the ball. It was not hard to setup, nor pug (pick up group). Honestly anything beyond 10 seems to to much or silly to me.
I am inclined to agree, but I am not against 20 man raids. Again, there should be options, as long as no one type is mandatory for progression.
Then you were doing it wrong. Same with only knowing a small group of friends in a large raiding guild. In my EQ and WOW guilds I grouped with pretty much everyone multiple times outside of raids. And trusted every one of them to be a competent , back when that mattered.
This poll is meaningless. Why should I be force to raid to get the best loot. It takes way too long to make a raid and when someone like myself mess up during a boss fight and the raid wipes, I'm the one who gets blamed. I want the best gear so that I can do the easy mode dungeons that no one cares about (except for gearing up to be able to raid). Why am I forced to compete on a level of way better players when my skills are so poor that I need others to carry me through the dungeons.
This game doesn't need raiding, It needs challenging 5 men dungeons that will be beat by players who are better than me in the first few weeks unless the Devs put in some kind of %*&# block. This way I can pug and be able to get the best loots and people who I don't know and never meet will think I'm a good player.
Lets just give these people what they want so we can all see the game fail like star wars : the old republic. Anyone who's played that game knows why it failed so bad. Take away the broken raids (that were only hard because of the bugs) and what do you have? 5 Men dungeons on hard mode that even the most casuals can beat in the first week of getting max lvl. 6 months in and the game was dead and the only thing left to do was reroll a new class playing the same boring quests over and over again.
I voted 5 because with regards to fun group content I found 5 person hardmodes in Rift to be the most fun and personally challenging group content in the game.
I'm not a fan of raids (I've done them in EQ2 and Rift). I hate the drama and control issues. I had that I must dedicate myself to a schedule. It's just not fun to me.
However, if Cryptic is going to add them, then please don't gate the best stuff behind raiding. What point is there playing the game if you have to ride one merry-go-round over and over and over and over and over again just to progress. Second rate progression outside of raiding sucks.
I agree with the not gating the best stuff behind raid walls, but as far as having to do stuff over and over... most expansions implement at least 2 or sometimes 3 new raids or even more including the ones added in between expansions (if they don't they are not keeping people busy) and by the time my guild got through every single new raid, and did it enough times to gear people up, there would be new raids and new expansion added again... and while we were running through these raids, we had fun, so doing them over again was not a drag, but a blast. Whether or not you have fun doing raids (or any type of content) really depends on your guild and the kind of people you game with, at least in my experience.
9 times out of 10, if people just "don't like raids" it's usually because they don't like gaming with decent people, would rather go solo, don't have the time, or just aren't good at raids. And anytime someone can't do something for whatever reason, they would rather it not exist in the game.
This poll is meaningless. Why should I be force to raid to get the best loot. It takes way too long to make a raid and when someone like myself mess up during a boss fight and the raid wipes, I'm the one who gets blamed. I want the best gear so that I can do the easy mode dungeons that no one cares about (except for gearing up to be able to raid). Why am I forced to compete on a level of way better players when my skills are so poor that I need others to carry me through the dungeons.
This game doesn't need raiding, It needs challenging 5 men dungeons that will be beat by players who are better than me in the first few weeks unless the Devs put in some kind of %*&# block. This way I can pug and be able to get the best loots and people who I don't know and never meet will think I'm a good player.
Lets just give these people what they want so we can all see the game fail like star wars : the old republic. Anyone who's played that game knows why it failed so bad. Take away the broken raids (that were only hard because of the bugs) and what do you have? 5 Men dungeons on hard mode that even the most casuals can beat in the first week of getting max lvl. 6 months in and the game was dead and the only thing left to do was reroll a new class playing the same boring quests over and over again.
Should they ever introduce raids and force players to team up with 9 or possibly more people to complete them, I will quit, and so will all my friends. One of the reasons I'm looking forward to this game is because it doesn't have Raid endgame content.
Why would they force anyone to do anything?
Raids in DDO for example are regularly shortmanned, and older raids are often soloed, and the game still had (the last time I played it) a somewhat healthy raid scene (its problems laid elsewhere).
(Edit: to clarify, regular dungeons in DDO are 6-man, raids are 12-man)
0
psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
Uhhh, no matter how you try to skew it yourself, the one fact remains that only 33.58% of all voters want to keep it at the standard 5 player content. That is a fact. And to those of you who just try to say that the average gamer doesn't read forums, that is missing the point. If you try to use that point as a basis to say that these percentages don't mean anything, that's like trying to say that only a certain TYPE of gamer reads forums, which is not true. There are many different types of gamers who read the forums, meaning, no matter how you try to cut it, the group of people who felt this point was important enough to vote were and will always be a random group of people from the gamer community as a whole, meaning that the percentages of people who want raid content outweigh the people who don't.
Please stop trying to minimize the importance of these percentages just because it disagrees with what YOU want. That is absurd. Since the beginning of this poll, even when there were only a few voters until now at over 400 voters, the percentages have stayed the same. This fact alone tells us that the majority want some form of raids in this game. Period. End of story.
WTF Over? Where did I make any such specious claim? You are putting words into my mouth.
I simply pointed out an anamoly of the percentages versus the actual percentages, and posted a corrected percentages.
I agree with the not gating the best stuff behind raid walls, but as far as having to do stuff over and over... most expansions implement at least 2 or sometimes 3 new raids or even more including the ones added in between expansions (if they don't they are not keeping people busy) and by the time my guild got through every single new raid, and did it enough times to gear people up, there would be new raids and new expansion added again... and while we were running through these raids, we had fun, so doing them over again was not a drag, but a blast. Whether or not you have fun doing raids (or any type of content) really depends on your guild and the kind of people you game with, at least in my experience.
9 times out of 10, if people just "don't like raids" it's usually because they don't like gaming with decent people, would rather go solo, don't have the time, or just aren't good at raids. And anytime someone can't do something for whatever reason, they would rather it not exist in the game.
I understand how tiered raiding works. Like I said, I raided in Rift. I parse competitively. I don't want it in the game because, as a game mechanic, it hogs the entire progression system. I don't want to raid to progress and I don't want to get tossed a second rate progression system just so people have the carrot to raid.
0
zeek29Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited April 2013
I really want raids. I know that the people that I am starting this game with want raids as well. I understand that some people are and will always be against raids, but this is an mmo. Also the story line of Neverwinter supports things like raids. That makes it possible for me and my possible 20 friends to get together and play to accomplish a goal together. For people that don't raid the only true problem comes in pvp, and maybe they will adjust gear for this like they have in other games. I have a very bias view though and i understand not everyone loves raiding like i do
Why is everyone complaining against this seem to be the same people, well given not all statement instance but a few. seems to be the same people arguing that this game is not free to play on the basis that it's your choice what to do and have fun, while here you're arguing that raiding is forced upon( if it exists )? , honestly what the hell, mass counter thought, i hate this new generation; have one statement or the other, consider them to be compliments in base (my assumption is the cause of the extra "hate and against new gamers statement")!!
I understand how tiered raiding works. Like I said, I raided in Rift. I parse competitively. I don't want it in the game because, as a game mechanic, it hogs the entire progression system. I don't want to raid to progress and I don't want to get tossed a second rate progression system just so people have the carrot to raid.
That is why as we have suggested, they not make it mandatory to raid to get the best gear and progress your character. Have you really not been reading these posts or do people just automatically assume that if a larger group dungeon exists in the game, that they will hide the best loot behind it's walls? I don't get it, why is that assumed?
I really want raids. I know that the people that I am starting this game with want raids as well. I understand that some people are and will always be against raids, but this is an mmo. Also the story line of Neverwinter supports things like raids. That makes it possible for me and my possible 20 friends to get together and play to accomplish a goal together. For people that don't raid the only true problem comes in pvp, and maybe they will adjust gear for this like they have in other games. I have a very bias view though and i understand not everyone loves raiding like i do
Right, same here, and I am trying to get people to see that there really isn't a reason to be against raiding, if implemented right. I have listed the usual reason why some don't want raids in game, and explained that the solution to these issues are actually very simple. But I find that it matters not because if someone is "against" something because they either don't enjoy it, don't have time for it, aren't good at it, or just like solo content, then it usually means they just don't want it to exist, and that baffles me. I don't really PVP very much in MMORPG's because unless it's open world pvp, but that doesn't mean I go around campaigning against pvp or vote to have it removed from the game, that would be absurd and it wouldn't be fair to all the other people who do like it.
I'm gonna go with 10 player raids. 5 men isn't really a raid and I hate 25 men-40 men zerg raids with a passion.
As most people chose. I believe like you and like most voters in this poll that the 10 man content is the most balanced and makes the most sense for Neverwinter, although I am not against 20 man content either.
My preference is 10-manned 'raids'.. or, more difficult content that can only be tackled with 2 party's of five. This makes for interesting group compositions, possibly interesting off-tanking situations, control mechanics, rogues having to disable traps in a set amount of time. I would disable companions for these raids since it would be a mess of characters on the screen.
Then if they don't care either way their vote is meaningless in this survey.
And again, you are missing the point if you try to say that 400 votes don't mean anything when compared to the thousands who play. Do you understand what a random survey means? A random survey is simply 400 voters out of the entire player community. It's the PERCENTAGES that matter.
Did you notice that the percentages STAYED THE SAME since the beginning of this poll? When the total voters were 60 and now when there are 400, the percentages stayed the same. That fact alone should tell you now that even if the total voters were 5000, the percentages would STILL be the same. Meaning, the percentages are accurate.
I guess people just don't understand the purpose of polls. The entire player community is never meant to take part in the poll, that's unrealistic to expect. It's the percentages that matter.
Thats why I said this poll was good enough *relative* result. We are agreeing on the same thing here, I just think you misunderstood me, the cons of forum communication is break down in communication.
You realize pretty much every game since has hoped to "fail" like WOW in that era right? As far as why raids have needed gear/items only available on raids, you pretty much answered that in your post. Human nature. Most people don't go to extra effort without a tangible extra result. Find another system that has worked anywhere or even a theory from a legitimate game Dev and I'm all ears.
Why is everyone complaining against this seem to be the same people, well given not all statement instance but a few. seems to be the same people arguing that this game is not free to play on the basis that it's your choice what to do and have fun, while here you're arguing that raiding is forced upon( if it exists )? , honestly what the hell, mass counter thought, i hate this new generation; have one statement or the other, consider them to be compliments in base (my assumption is the cause of the extra "hate and against new gamers statement")!!
^ This.
At the end of the day, content is king, no matter what kind of player you are CONTENT IS KING!!!
And in this day and age there is many types of players, the days of catering to a niche crowd has gone and for a game to be decently populated to keep a thriving community active, it needs to be open to all these types of players, therefore, CONTENT IS KING!!!!
At the end of the day, content is king, no matter what kind of player you are CONTENT IS KING!!!
And in this day and age there is many types of players, the days of catering to a niche crowd has gone and for a game to be decently populated to keep a thriving community active, it needs to be open to all these types of players, therefore, CONTENT IS KING!!!!
Agreed. This is the reason why I know TESO will fail badly: the devs themselves stated the game won't have raid instances. That right there means the game will have pathetic end-game content centered around running the same 5 men dungeons over and over and doing pvp (which doesn't even appeal to a large nr. of people).
Well perhaps "Fail" is a strong word, let's just say TESO won't be stealing any crowns from other successful MMOs currently on the market, as it's simply just a GW2 with a more photo-realistic graphic engine.
Nah, my money is on Wildstar to dent WoW's popularity, simply because it will have A LOT of features and content.
I loved 10 man raids in WoW. Even when we could do 25 I preferred the smaller groups. Honestly they were far more challenging. You could carry less dead weight and your group composition was more of an impact. I would not mind seeing that in NWO. And it makes sense to have two parties form up into a "raiding party".
This being said I think that they need to take a look at a lot of different raid bosses before they implement this. From WoW to DDO to LotRO at least. Those games all have long standing end game communities. If they want inspiration they can look at some of the newer titles like Secret World for inspiration. It also might not hurt to look towards more action oriented games like God of War. I realize that we are not going to be climbing up things and unleashing combo moves, but there is a certain action element there and cut scene cinematic that would fit very will with NWO.
Edit: Now that I think of it, it would be so epic to have a cut scene / action sequence. One where the boss slumps down or something and every player has to spam the 1 key, then 3, then 2 or something, in order to perform some sort of special maneuver as a finishing move for the boss or to get them into different phases. This would be so much more epic than death of 1,000 adds.
I am not against raids, but I am in fact against the effects it brings to PvP: A pvp stat, like resilience, just makes pvp a horrible experience for un-geared alts and new players alike...... And remind me what was the fix Blizzard applied to raid gear being better than pvp gear???? Yes, it was resilience..... So either put raids behind yourselves and play 5 man content, or simply switch to a game with truly epic amounts of players..... Yes, I mean Guild Wars 2 again, you should try the WvW gamemode..... It's like a raid, just has 240 times more players than a 25 man raid at the same time (yes, i mean 6k players at peak times....)
I am not against raids, but I am in fact against the effects it brings to PvP: A pvp stat, like resilience, just makes pvp a horrible experience for un-geared alts and new players alike...... And remind me what was the fix Blizzard applied to raid gear being better than pvp gear???? Yes, it was resilience..... So either put raids behind yourselves and play 5 man content, or simply switch to a game with truly epic amounts of players..... Yes, I mean Guild Wars 2 again, you should try the WvW gamemode..... It's like a raid, just has 240 times more players than a 25 man raid at the same time (yes, i mean 6k players at peak times....)
The only difference in PvP and PvE gear is where the stats go and what the set bonus's are. There is no Resilience rating in NWO.
Uriziel TR lev 60 Gear Rating 12400
Uriziel GF Gear Rating 14800
David Grave CW 10500 Gear Rating 6000 recovery(kripparian build)
Uriziem Monk Completionist 28 past life , DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
ex officer and founder of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild, now on NEVERWINTER picture sharing
0
aendaeronMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
10 man or 25 man if it is available through the matchmaker; Else leave it as it is.
0
jnaathraMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Didn't they already state no true raids?
Scout Tragold - "I haven't lived this long by being brave... it's just another word for stupid."
That is why as we have suggested, they not make it mandatory to raid to get the best gear and progress your character. Have you really not been reading these posts or do people just automatically assume that if a larger group dungeon exists in the game, that they will hide the best loot behind it's walls? I don't get it, why is that assumed?
No one is assuming anything. We all know that the best things are locked behind raids because we have examples in WoW, EQ2, Rift, LotRO, and every other raid-centric game. You just have to browse up through the thread and you can see posts with people claiming that raiding deserves the best gear.
Have you not been reading these posts? Have you not read these posts in every other raiding thread ever? It's always the same. None of the arguments have changed. As soon as raiding is implemented in a game the topic turns from, "should there be raiding" to "why the raids should have the top end progression". It will happen here too, or the raiding will die.
Personally I would love to see raids being added in at a later point in time as I know many of my friends (guild mates) would love to have a blast raiding together.
Comments
I am inclined to agree, but I am not against 20 man raids. Again, there should be options, as long as no one type is mandatory for progression.
I agree.
/10chars
This game doesn't need raiding, It needs challenging 5 men dungeons that will be beat by players who are better than me in the first few weeks unless the Devs put in some kind of %*&# block. This way I can pug and be able to get the best loots and people who I don't know and never meet will think I'm a good player.
Lets just give these people what they want so we can all see the game fail like star wars : the old republic. Anyone who's played that game knows why it failed so bad. Take away the broken raids (that were only hard because of the bugs) and what do you have? 5 Men dungeons on hard mode that even the most casuals can beat in the first week of getting max lvl. 6 months in and the game was dead and the only thing left to do was reroll a new class playing the same boring quests over and over again.
I agree with the not gating the best stuff behind raid walls, but as far as having to do stuff over and over... most expansions implement at least 2 or sometimes 3 new raids or even more including the ones added in between expansions (if they don't they are not keeping people busy) and by the time my guild got through every single new raid, and did it enough times to gear people up, there would be new raids and new expansion added again... and while we were running through these raids, we had fun, so doing them over again was not a drag, but a blast. Whether or not you have fun doing raids (or any type of content) really depends on your guild and the kind of people you game with, at least in my experience.
9 times out of 10, if people just "don't like raids" it's usually because they don't like gaming with decent people, would rather go solo, don't have the time, or just aren't good at raids. And anytime someone can't do something for whatever reason, they would rather it not exist in the game.
LMAO yet so true.
Why would they force anyone to do anything?
Raids in DDO for example are regularly shortmanned, and older raids are often soloed, and the game still had (the last time I played it) a somewhat healthy raid scene (its problems laid elsewhere).
(Edit: to clarify, regular dungeons in DDO are 6-man, raids are 12-man)
WTF Over? Where did I make any such specious claim? You are putting words into my mouth.
I simply pointed out an anamoly of the percentages versus the actual percentages, and posted a corrected percentages.
I obviously hit a nerve...
Oh well, cest la vie.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
I understand how tiered raiding works. Like I said, I raided in Rift. I parse competitively. I don't want it in the game because, as a game mechanic, it hogs the entire progression system. I don't want to raid to progress and I don't want to get tossed a second rate progression system just so people have the carrot to raid.
That is why as we have suggested, they not make it mandatory to raid to get the best gear and progress your character. Have you really not been reading these posts or do people just automatically assume that if a larger group dungeon exists in the game, that they will hide the best loot behind it's walls? I don't get it, why is that assumed?
Right, same here, and I am trying to get people to see that there really isn't a reason to be against raiding, if implemented right. I have listed the usual reason why some don't want raids in game, and explained that the solution to these issues are actually very simple. But I find that it matters not because if someone is "against" something because they either don't enjoy it, don't have time for it, aren't good at it, or just like solo content, then it usually means they just don't want it to exist, and that baffles me. I don't really PVP very much in MMORPG's because unless it's open world pvp, but that doesn't mean I go around campaigning against pvp or vote to have it removed from the game, that would be absurd and it wouldn't be fair to all the other people who do like it.
Right, and more options and choice for play style is always good as well, as long as we have other options and choices.
As most people chose. I believe like you and like most voters in this poll that the 10 man content is the most balanced and makes the most sense for Neverwinter, although I am not against 20 man content either.
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/Emrendil
Thats why I said this poll was good enough *relative* result. We are agreeing on the same thing here, I just think you misunderstood me, the cons of forum communication is break down in communication.
^ This.
At the end of the day, content is king, no matter what kind of player you are CONTENT IS KING!!!
And in this day and age there is many types of players, the days of catering to a niche crowd has gone and for a game to be decently populated to keep a thriving community active, it needs to be open to all these types of players, therefore, CONTENT IS KING!!!!
Agreed. This is the reason why I know TESO will fail badly: the devs themselves stated the game won't have raid instances. That right there means the game will have pathetic end-game content centered around running the same 5 men dungeons over and over and doing pvp (which doesn't even appeal to a large nr. of people).
Well perhaps "Fail" is a strong word, let's just say TESO won't be stealing any crowns from other successful MMOs currently on the market, as it's simply just a GW2 with a more photo-realistic graphic engine.
Nah, my money is on Wildstar to dent WoW's popularity, simply because it will have A LOT of features and content.
This being said I think that they need to take a look at a lot of different raid bosses before they implement this. From WoW to DDO to LotRO at least. Those games all have long standing end game communities. If they want inspiration they can look at some of the newer titles like Secret World for inspiration. It also might not hurt to look towards more action oriented games like God of War. I realize that we are not going to be climbing up things and unleashing combo moves, but there is a certain action element there and cut scene cinematic that would fit very will with NWO.
Edit: Now that I think of it, it would be so epic to have a cut scene / action sequence. One where the boss slumps down or something and every player has to spam the 1 key, then 3, then 2 or something, in order to perform some sort of special maneuver as a finishing move for the boss or to get them into different phases. This would be so much more epic than death of 1,000 adds.
I can get behind that. ^_^
The only difference in PvP and PvE gear is where the stats go and what the set bonus's are. There is no Resilience rating in NWO.
Uriziel GF Gear Rating 14800
David Grave CW 10500 Gear Rating 6000 recovery(kripparian build)
Uriziem Monk Completionist 28 past life , DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
ex officer and founder of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild, now on NEVERWINTER
picture sharing
No one is assuming anything. We all know that the best things are locked behind raids because we have examples in WoW, EQ2, Rift, LotRO, and every other raid-centric game. You just have to browse up through the thread and you can see posts with people claiming that raiding deserves the best gear.
Have you not been reading these posts? Have you not read these posts in every other raiding thread ever? It's always the same. None of the arguments have changed. As soon as raiding is implemented in a game the topic turns from, "should there be raiding" to "why the raids should have the top end progression". It will happen here too, or the raiding will die.
All they have said is "not at launch, maybe down the road if people want it".
60 Drow Trickster Rogue
11 Elf Control Wizard
Server: Beholder
Guild: Praetor Lupus
Guild Website: http://www.PraetorLupus.com
Hero of the North & Guardian of Neverwinter Founder.