Yeah, if there are going to be Raids, I want 20+ people involved.
However, I don't want 20 people going to kill... a single boss. That just makes me feel pathetic - I am 1/20th as powerful as a single Villain? I don't want to get ready for the "DPS Phase."
Raids should be more like taking on an Army - Castle Siege or Defending a Village from Marauders. It should be random and Chaotic - something you cannot really plan around.
I'd have to say I would like to see th 60 content first.
The bosses so far are a joke and honestly would hate to see how they would implement 10 or 20 man content. What make 6 times more adds on a boss? O.o
I'd have to say I would like to see th 60 content first.
The bosses so far are a joke and honestly would hate to see how they would implement 10 or 20 man content. What make 6 times more adds on a boss? O.o
LoL sad, but true. I hope the end game has something more dangerous than adds in every boss fight.
I found this tidbit in an Italian game site interview.
WF: Very little is known to this day about endgame. Can you talk about your approach to this part of the game? How do you plan to keep the players interested in the long term? Is there a chance that you will add bigger instanced challenges (similar to raids in other games) if there is enough interest for them?
ZS: We’ve had end game in mind since early on in development and wanted to make sure we launched with a good experience. There’s plenty of familiar stuff for players to look forward to like tons of amazing gear, hard and challenging versions of earlier dungeons. We also have a few tricks up our sleeve beyond that as well.
The event I mentioned earlier is a mixed PvE PvP competition that takes place in the lost dwarven city of Gauntlgrym. It’s a larger scale gameplay than anything players encounter while leveling. We will have more details down the road so stay tuned for all the juicy details; it is super fun! The whole office has a blast each time we playtest it internally.
WF: The Foundry might very well be the master key to increase the game’s longevity, given that enough players become interested in creating content with it. That said, some users are worried that this could cause you to develop less official content. How often do you plan to add new content to the game? Do you already have a schedule for post-launch updates?
ZS: We love supporting and adding to our live games! One of the really cool things about making an online game like an MMO is that you don’t ever have to be done or stop. We get the chance to keep adding those great ideas that couldn’t make it for launch. Even cooler is we sort of stop being the vision holders for the game once it goes live and that torch passes to the players themselves. So while we have plans and ideas as to what we’ll be adding in the future, all of that can and most likely will change once our players settle in and we see what it is about the game they love and what they don’t. The one thing that won’t change is how frequently and thoroughly we plan on adding to the game!
The Foundry doesn’t really change that philosophy at all. It’s a way players can get involved and tell their own stories. We want people to feel like they can get in and recreate all those great adventures they wrote for their D&D groups over the years. It is very exciting!
I come from EQ where 50+ man raids where common, i miss those days. I want a raid that requires more then 2 tanks.. more then 3-4 healers, and more then 4-5 DPS, IMO wow's 10 man raids are not raids but skirmishes, ask any battle person if a 10 man operation is a raid...
I come from EQ where 50+ man raids where common, i miss those days. I want a raid that requires more then 2 tanks.. more then 3-4 healers, and more then 4-5 DPS, IMO wow's 10 man raids are not raids but skirmishes, ask any battle person if a 10 man operation is a raid...
I wholeheartedly agree that large raids would be nice to see. However, several class and group mechanics need to be fleshed out better before that can realistically happen. I hope that happens during the open beta. As mechanics stand right now, the game lends itself much better to a 10 man raiding environment.
I wholeheartedly agree that large raids would be nice to see. However, several class and group mechanics need to be fleshed out better before that can realistically happen. I hope that happens during the open beta. As mechanics stand right now, the game lends itself much better to a 10 man raiding environment.
They could always bring in some world bosses for that later. Honestly I would rather they had GM run events for that kind of thing. It can be amazingly fun!
No one is assuming anything. We all know that the best things are locked behind raids because we have examples in WoW, EQ2, Rift, LotRO, and every other raid-centric game. You just have to browse up through the thread and you can see posts with people claiming that raiding deserves the best gear.
Have you not been reading these posts? Have you not read these posts in every other raiding thread ever? It's always the same. None of the arguments have changed. As soon as raiding is implemented in a game the topic turns from, "should there be raiding" to "why the raids should have the top end progression". It will happen here too, or the raiding will die.
Well just because something "has always been" does not mean it will always be, and I agree that a lot of people think that's the way it should be, but a lot of other people believe it should not, and that there should be multiple methods of progression.
Thats why I said this poll was good enough *relative* result. We are agreeing on the same thing here, I just think you misunderstood me, the cons of forum communication is break down in communication.
^ This.
At the end of the day, content is king, no matter what kind of player you are CONTENT IS KING!!!
And in this day and age there is many types of players, the days of catering to a niche crowd has gone and for a game to be decently populated to keep a thriving community active, it needs to be open to all these types of players, therefore, CONTENT IS KING!!!!
Oh, my apologizes if we were saying the same thing. And I agree with you that content is king and that a good game should cater to more than one type of player. Thanks for your input. As it turns out, we were merely reinforcing each other's arguments.
I wholeheartedly agree that large raids would be nice to see. However, several class and group mechanics need to be fleshed out better before that can realistically happen. I hope that happens during the open beta. As mechanics stand right now, the game lends itself much better to a 10 man raiding environment.
I'd have to say I would like to see th 60 content first.
The bosses so far are a joke and honestly would hate to see how they would implement 10 or 20 man content. What make 6 times more adds on a boss? O.o
Agreed. Boss mechanics need to be a bit more challenging instead of a mash fest. I know that is overstating it but you get my point. I like boss mechanics like...
"Everyone get out of the way after his next attack" and then "Oh sh-t here comes the part where the healer has to really keep people up" and then "Quick, range DPS get ready to interrupt him when he emotes" and "Here comes the add, off tank draw him to the side while we burn the boss" and... well, you get the idea. Boss fights should have multiple challenging aspects to it that require everyone to work as a team and be on their toes, even in 5 man dungeons.
As predicted, the votes keep rising and the percentages remain the same. No matter how many votes there are (over 500 now) the percentage of people who want some form of raid content hovers around 75-76%.
All we can hope is that the developers at least put large group content and boss mechanics on their priority lists. While I agree there are other aspects of the game that need fleshing out first, I still think that raids and boss mechanics should be on the list of next steps once they smooth out the other things.
As predicted, the votes keep rising and the percentages remain the same. No matter how many votes there are (over 500 now) the percentage of people who want some form of raid content hovers around 75-76%.
All we can hope is that the developers at least put large group content and boss mechanics on their priority lists. While I agree there are other aspects of the game that need fleshing out first, I still think that raids and boss mechanics should be on the list of next steps once they smooth out the other things.
The percentage of people that want raids aren't 75%. The poll assumes that raid content is a given and people were asked about the size of group content they prefer. If you want to draw those conclusions your poll should be 1. I want raids, 2. I don't want raids, 3. I don't care either way. You could probably still get a valid poll by splitting number 1 into two or three options ("I want 10 person raids" "I want 20 person raids" "I want to see raids 25+").
I do think your poll does fairly accurately describe what size raid content people do want though. That is a useful metric in itself.
In answer to your previous post. I agree that just because it's always been doesn't mean it always has to be that way, but the problem is that no one has come up with a working solution to this and every current implementation is how I described. How could it work as a progression option and still attract a large portion of the raid community. I don't think it's entirely inaccurate to say that a reasonable portion of raiders enjoy exclusive rewards, especially gear. That is a tricky dilemma.
The percentage of people that want raids aren't 75%. The poll assumes that raid content is a given and people were asked about the size of group content they prefer. If you want to draw those conclusions your poll should be 1. I want raids, 2. I don't want raids, 3. I don't care either way. You could probably still get a valid poll by splitting number 1 into two or three options ("I want 10 person raids" "I want 20 person raids" "I want to see raids 25+").
I do think your poll does fairly accurately describe what size raid content people do want though. That is a useful metric in itself.
In answer to your previous post. I agree that just because it's always been doesn't mean it always has to be that way, but the problem is that no one has come up with a working solution to this and every current implementation is how I described. How could it work as a progression option and still attract a large portion of the raid community. I don't think it's entirely inaccurate to say that a reasonable portion of raiders enjoy exclusive rewards, especially gear. That is a tricky dilemma.
False. 5 players is NOT a raid. lol If the poll assumes everyone voting wants raids, why would the very first choice be "Leave it at the standard 5 players" ? In case you didn't figure this out already, more than 5 players means raids, and 5 or less means no raids, at least in this discussion and in most other MMOs it does.
Five players or less is NOT a raid and obviously referring to the STANDARD dungeon with 5 people, not raids. The results as far as who wants more than 5 players (raids) and who wants to leave it as it is (no raids) are obviously in favor of raids, which means more than 5 players. I'm purposely attempting to make this really clear here.
And as a previous poster pointed out, even we were a minority (less than 10%) it would still be a significant percentage, enough that the devs would implement it to keep those people happy and playing.
Again, you are still trying to somehow minimize the results of this poll and your arguments are silly. Those who chose A. don't want raids. Those who chose B. want mid-size raids, and those who chose C. want larger raids. Simple as that, please stop trying to twist it into something else.
Sorry to bring this up again, but I think this subject should still be discussed if only to illustrate that the raid concept (however it is implemented) is important to a LOT of players. I feel that it's usually less about the "phat lewt" than it is the understandable concept of simply being able to defeat content / bosses and strategize with more players than the standard 5. It makes no sense to say that a dungeon is a "raid" when you still only have 5 players. If the content is harder, then call it heroic, but a "raid" means more players, since numerous attackers is the inherent meaning of the word "raid" obviously.
Raiding is fun to me (and most people I've discussed this with) because you are with a larger group of people (at least 10 or more) and it just has that epic feel to it, more akin to a battle. And when you are fighting a boss and it requires a large group to defeat, that boss naturally feels hugely powerful and the fight feels epic. The strategy requires much much more team work on everyone's part, and that is great. Any time a game can provide more of a challenge requiring more team work is a good thing.
In my opinion, the only people who don't care for raids are either the people who can't commit due to time, or the people who are simply incapable of working with others as a team. Both of these issues are easily treatable. Make shorter raids for people with less time. And for those who don't like them or can't work as a team, create content that provides the same type of rewards by playing a more "solo" aspect of the game. And to those old schoolers who say raids are not true to D&D, oh come on... how is simply having a larger dungeon or harder bosses, designed for more people not D&D? Is it really be worth it to get all up in arms over having a dungeon that requires 10 people as opposed to 5? There doesn't seem to be much of an argument there.
I personally hope they add some sort of raiding in the future as strictly 5 man content can become boring over time, especially when you know that's all there is and there are no epic battles or boss fights awaiting you in your progression, in addition to other playable aspects of the game of course. Again, I don't agree that raids (or larger scale content) should have unique loot that is "more powerful" than all the other loot and only attainable by participating in raids. I am a firm believer in giving people options to progress their characters.
Take part in this poll to voice your opinion on this subject, as I see that it is important to a lot of folks one way or another.
UPDATE: Potential good news for all you raiders out there. I say "potential" because to me, it is not yet official until we hear it straight from the horses mouth. But in this video a well known game news channel claims that he was informed that Neverwinter will in fact have raids as part of it's endgame design sometime after release, possibly even a year. This seems like good news as it does not seem likely that the developers would mention something that important to the gaming press if there were not some truth to it, as pointed out by Elewyndyl, who provided us with this link.
And by the way, if anyone at all has any more information, videos, or links regarding the development of raids and larger group content for Neverwinter, please don't hesitate to post it in this forum so I can add it here as an update. Thanks! And thank you for all your input and votes!
Ive been an hardcore MMO player for the last 10 years now. Been playing all of the successfull MMO's outthere being a GM of a guild or a RL of a guild.
Alltough i did love to raid in the past atm i really feel burned out to this type of content. I really want to just be in a guild and play with those players that i really know in real life and dont want to be "forced" into the raiding ways never again.
I do understand what youre saying tho, the raid content should exist and those willing to do raids should have the option to make them, as long as they dnt give 5 man groups loot of lesser quality or putting guilds of 5 man content never being able to reach the BIS items im fine with raiding content in a game.
Ive been an hardcore MMO player for the last 10 years now. Been playing all of the successfull MMO's outthere being a GM of a guild or a RL of a guild.
Alltough i did love to raid in the past atm i really feel burned out to this type of content. I really want to just be in a guild and play with those players that i really know in real life and dont want to be "forced" into the raiding ways never again.
I do understand what youre saying tho, the raid content should exist and those willing to do raids should have the option to make them, as long as they dnt give 5 man groups loot of lesser quality or putting guilds of 5 man content never being able to reach the BIS items im fine with raiding content in a game.
Without better loots there is no real reason to raid.
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Drug dealers drive nice cars than me. I'm forced to be a drug dealer according to this thread. Guess I better get started since I seem to have no choice in the matter.
Ive been an hardcore MMO player for the last 10 years now. Been playing all of the successfull MMO's outthere being a GM of a guild or a RL of a guild.
Alltough i did love to raid in the past atm i really feel burned out to this type of content. I really want to just be in a guild and play with those players that i really know in real life and dont want to be "forced" into the raiding ways never again.
I do understand what youre saying tho, the raid content should exist and those willing to do raids should have the option to make them, as long as they dnt give 5 man groups loot of lesser quality or putting guilds of 5 man content never being able to reach the BIS items im fine with raiding content in a game.
Right, we've addressed the "forced to" issue and trust me, there IS a way to implement raids without forcing people to do them for progression sake (see a few ideas below), and many suggestions can be read in this very thread by other posters. To say that it is not possible or worth while to implement raids without hiding all the best gear behind it's walls is just small mindedness (not referring to you sir).
Let's hear some more objective theories on how they could implement 8-10 man dungeons without forcing people to run them to get max stat gear. Let's get creative and maybe even help the developers with some ideas on how we would like them developed, instead of just saying "it's not possible."
Anyway, yes I agree with you that there should be options and choice in any game and raiding with a guild should simply be one option, not mandatory.
Drug dealers drive nice cars than me. I'm forced to be a drug dealer according to this thread. Guess I better get started since I seem to have no choice in the matter.
Huh? We are way past this already. Many folks have already agreed that we'd like to see 10 man raids, but without being forced to do them. See above post. The entire point of my OP is that there SHOULD be choice in the game. You either assume I'm lying or you post without reading.
Without better loots there is no real reason to raid.
This may be your only reason to raid, but people who only raid for the loot are just certain types of gamers. The min-maxers who get to level cap in a few days after rolling their characters. Our guild was the kind of guild that actually went back even after a new expansion and helped new lower level players defeat the old raids... why? Because they were fun and they hadn't been through them before. Even when the loot was obsolete.
Content is king, meaning I believe that it interests most true raiders to beat raids just because they are fun and they want to SEE the content. Not just because there is a 5% chance they will loot a new chest piece. If raids weren't fun, there would be even LESS of a reason to do them, even if the gear wasn't max level.
There is a way to do it right. Raids do not have to contain only the best gear. Here are just a few ideas on how to provide multiple paths to max stat gear:
1. You could have ultra hard 5 mans for a small group option.
2. Another 5 man option could be a system similar to GW2 and their Fractals of the Mists where you are able to go onto the next higher tier dungeon after completing the last one and the best loot could possibly be waiting at the top level. I didn't care for the way GW2 implemented this, but it could be done right.
3. For a solo option, maybe an "epic quest" system that's purely solo yet takes awhile to complete to get max stat gear.
4. Another solo option (while not a fan of these) could be something like Rift's Chronicles which are basically solo dungeons that are supposed to be a lot harder than normal questing. Not sure if this would work, but it's just another idea and could possibly be implemented right.
This provides a 5 man path to max stat gear and a solo path to max stat gear, in addition to the 10 man path, these ideas could provide multiple options. I'm not saying any idea is the best or should be a reality, but I am saying there's a way to do it.
In addition to this, I think an incentive to do group content should still exist though because a game about dungeons is still more of a group oriented game than a solo game. To provide this incentive, one idea is to make the solo path to max stat gear longer than the 5 man path, and make the 5 man path to the gear longer than the raid path, making raids the fastest method. So if you want the gear a bit faster, go with a 10 man group. If the time it takes to achieve the gear is of less importance to you then go with a small group or even the solo option. Most solo players I know seem to be the types who take their time getting through content anyway.
These are just a few ideas though, I'm sure many other ideas abound.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited April 2013
10 man skirmishes would be nice, but not really sure about the 10man dungeon delves...
0
dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Huh? We are way past this already. Many folks have already agreed that we'd like to see 10 man raids, but without being forced to do them. See above post. The entire point of my OP is that there SHOULD be choice in the game. You either assume I'm lying or you post without reading.
I read every post in this thread . But I won't have time to read much more since I'm being forced to deal drugs ).
*Scratches head* Errr, anyways... if anyone else has any other constructive ideas in addition to the ones above and in previous posts, feel free to share them.
I don't think the game supports more than 10 players fighting in an area, as soon as you have over 15 + it sure gets messy with the combat system, flashy effects and very hard to tune.
Raids above all, are about challenge and prestige. The term raid, at least in gaming, indicates that need you ABOVE average team size to best the various encounters presented in a zone. The greater group size just adds to the challenge.
Also keep in mind that raiders need the best gear in order to defeat the most difficult battles in the game. It would not make sense for a solo player, playing only solo content to gain the best gear, unless they plan to raid. This could only work if they plan to provide solo player content equal to raiding tiers, yet this would mean far more work hours and balance time, prolly not worth it.
The quality of loot normally goes hand in hand with the difficulty of the encounter. High raid size usually means high quality loot. It is a no go for the raid community to say that SOLO players will get the same loot quality just by destroying some random epic quest. This will never work out. And most the time they are right about this. The level of organization, determination etc . which is required to successful clear a challenging raid instance, will always be higher than some solo player doing a solo quest, no matter how hard, same can be applied for 5 man. This is simply limited by numbers. You can design far more complex bosses and abilities with 10 players in mind. If you design a boss for a single player, you are very very limited, you have to balance it around ALL classes. Some ability the boss might have would be fatal for a certain class and very easy to counter for another, unless you plan class specific bosses, but well, the time again. Same goes for 5 man.
If they plan any raids, it must be 10 man or 15 man.
Comments
However, I don't want 20 people going to kill... a single boss. That just makes me feel pathetic - I am 1/20th as powerful as a single Villain? I don't want to get ready for the "DPS Phase."
Raids should be more like taking on an Army - Castle Siege or Defending a Village from Marauders. It should be random and Chaotic - something you cannot really plan around.
The bosses so far are a joke and honestly would hate to see how they would implement 10 or 20 man content. What make 6 times more adds on a boss? O.o
*~Serixil Kor'hedron- Drow Trickster~*
Even WoW eventually figured out that 10 man is where it is at.
LoL sad, but true. I hope the end game has something more dangerous than adds in every boss fight.
not sure why this matters?
*~Serixil Kor'hedron- Drow Trickster~*
I was kinda joking about a dev trying to throw off the poll results for their own sinister reasons.
Same article / interview, later question
I wholeheartedly agree that large raids would be nice to see. However, several class and group mechanics need to be fleshed out better before that can realistically happen. I hope that happens during the open beta. As mechanics stand right now, the game lends itself much better to a 10 man raiding environment.
They could always bring in some world bosses for that later. Honestly I would rather they had GM run events for that kind of thing. It can be amazingly fun!
Well just because something "has always been" does not mean it will always be, and I agree that a lot of people think that's the way it should be, but a lot of other people believe it should not, and that there should be multiple methods of progression.
Oh, my apologizes if we were saying the same thing. And I agree with you that content is king and that a good game should cater to more than one type of player. Thanks for your input. As it turns out, we were merely reinforcing each other's arguments.
I agree very much.
Agreed. Boss mechanics need to be a bit more challenging instead of a mash fest. I know that is overstating it but you get my point. I like boss mechanics like...
"Everyone get out of the way after his next attack" and then "Oh sh-t here comes the part where the healer has to really keep people up" and then "Quick, range DPS get ready to interrupt him when he emotes" and "Here comes the add, off tank draw him to the side while we burn the boss" and... well, you get the idea. Boss fights should have multiple challenging aspects to it that require everyone to work as a team and be on their toes, even in 5 man dungeons.
All we can hope is that the developers at least put large group content and boss mechanics on their priority lists. While I agree there are other aspects of the game that need fleshing out first, I still think that raids and boss mechanics should be on the list of next steps once they smooth out the other things.
The percentage of people that want raids aren't 75%. The poll assumes that raid content is a given and people were asked about the size of group content they prefer. If you want to draw those conclusions your poll should be 1. I want raids, 2. I don't want raids, 3. I don't care either way. You could probably still get a valid poll by splitting number 1 into two or three options ("I want 10 person raids" "I want 20 person raids" "I want to see raids 25+").
I do think your poll does fairly accurately describe what size raid content people do want though. That is a useful metric in itself.
In answer to your previous post. I agree that just because it's always been doesn't mean it always has to be that way, but the problem is that no one has come up with a working solution to this and every current implementation is how I described. How could it work as a progression option and still attract a large portion of the raid community. I don't think it's entirely inaccurate to say that a reasonable portion of raiders enjoy exclusive rewards, especially gear. That is a tricky dilemma.
False. 5 players is NOT a raid. lol If the poll assumes everyone voting wants raids, why would the very first choice be "Leave it at the standard 5 players" ? In case you didn't figure this out already, more than 5 players means raids, and 5 or less means no raids, at least in this discussion and in most other MMOs it does.
Five players or less is NOT a raid and obviously referring to the STANDARD dungeon with 5 people, not raids. The results as far as who wants more than 5 players (raids) and who wants to leave it as it is (no raids) are obviously in favor of raids, which means more than 5 players. I'm purposely attempting to make this really clear here.
And as a previous poster pointed out, even we were a minority (less than 10%) it would still be a significant percentage, enough that the devs would implement it to keep those people happy and playing.
Again, you are still trying to somehow minimize the results of this poll and your arguments are silly. Those who chose A. don't want raids. Those who chose B. want mid-size raids, and those who chose C. want larger raids. Simple as that, please stop trying to twist it into something else.
Ive been an hardcore MMO player for the last 10 years now. Been playing all of the successfull MMO's outthere being a GM of a guild or a RL of a guild.
Alltough i did love to raid in the past atm i really feel burned out to this type of content. I really want to just be in a guild and play with those players that i really know in real life and dont want to be "forced" into the raiding ways never again.
I do understand what youre saying tho, the raid content should exist and those willing to do raids should have the option to make them, as long as they dnt give 5 man groups loot of lesser quality or putting guilds of 5 man content never being able to reach the BIS items im fine with raiding content in a game.
Without better loots there is no real reason to raid.
Right, we've addressed the "forced to" issue and trust me, there IS a way to implement raids without forcing people to do them for progression sake (see a few ideas below), and many suggestions can be read in this very thread by other posters. To say that it is not possible or worth while to implement raids without hiding all the best gear behind it's walls is just small mindedness (not referring to you sir).
Let's hear some more objective theories on how they could implement 8-10 man dungeons without forcing people to run them to get max stat gear. Let's get creative and maybe even help the developers with some ideas on how we would like them developed, instead of just saying "it's not possible."
Anyway, yes I agree with you that there should be options and choice in any game and raiding with a guild should simply be one option, not mandatory.
Huh? We are way past this already. Many folks have already agreed that we'd like to see 10 man raids, but without being forced to do them. See above post. The entire point of my OP is that there SHOULD be choice in the game. You either assume I'm lying or you post without reading.
This may be your only reason to raid, but people who only raid for the loot are just certain types of gamers. The min-maxers who get to level cap in a few days after rolling their characters. Our guild was the kind of guild that actually went back even after a new expansion and helped new lower level players defeat the old raids... why? Because they were fun and they hadn't been through them before. Even when the loot was obsolete.
Content is king, meaning I believe that it interests most true raiders to beat raids just because they are fun and they want to SEE the content. Not just because there is a 5% chance they will loot a new chest piece. If raids weren't fun, there would be even LESS of a reason to do them, even if the gear wasn't max level.
There is a way to do it right. Raids do not have to contain only the best gear. Here are just a few ideas on how to provide multiple paths to max stat gear:
1. You could have ultra hard 5 mans for a small group option.
2. Another 5 man option could be a system similar to GW2 and their Fractals of the Mists where you are able to go onto the next higher tier dungeon after completing the last one and the best loot could possibly be waiting at the top level. I didn't care for the way GW2 implemented this, but it could be done right.
3. For a solo option, maybe an "epic quest" system that's purely solo yet takes awhile to complete to get max stat gear.
4. Another solo option (while not a fan of these) could be something like Rift's Chronicles which are basically solo dungeons that are supposed to be a lot harder than normal questing. Not sure if this would work, but it's just another idea and could possibly be implemented right.
This provides a 5 man path to max stat gear and a solo path to max stat gear, in addition to the 10 man path, these ideas could provide multiple options. I'm not saying any idea is the best or should be a reality, but I am saying there's a way to do it.
In addition to this, I think an incentive to do group content should still exist though because a game about dungeons is still more of a group oriented game than a solo game. To provide this incentive, one idea is to make the solo path to max stat gear longer than the 5 man path, and make the 5 man path to the gear longer than the raid path, making raids the fastest method. So if you want the gear a bit faster, go with a 10 man group. If the time it takes to achieve the gear is of less importance to you then go with a small group or even the solo option. Most solo players I know seem to be the types who take their time getting through content anyway.
These are just a few ideas though, I'm sure many other ideas abound.
I read every post in this thread . But I won't have time to read much more since I'm being forced to deal drugs ).
Raids above all, are about challenge and prestige. The term raid, at least in gaming, indicates that need you ABOVE average team size to best the various encounters presented in a zone. The greater group size just adds to the challenge.
Also keep in mind that raiders need the best gear in order to defeat the most difficult battles in the game. It would not make sense for a solo player, playing only solo content to gain the best gear, unless they plan to raid. This could only work if they plan to provide solo player content equal to raiding tiers, yet this would mean far more work hours and balance time, prolly not worth it.
The quality of loot normally goes hand in hand with the difficulty of the encounter. High raid size usually means high quality loot. It is a no go for the raid community to say that SOLO players will get the same loot quality just by destroying some random epic quest. This will never work out. And most the time they are right about this. The level of organization, determination etc . which is required to successful clear a challenging raid instance, will always be higher than some solo player doing a solo quest, no matter how hard, same can be applied for 5 man. This is simply limited by numbers. You can design far more complex bosses and abilities with 10 players in mind. If you design a boss for a single player, you are very very limited, you have to balance it around ALL classes. Some ability the boss might have would be fatal for a certain class and very easy to counter for another, unless you plan class specific bosses, but well, the time again. Same goes for 5 man.
If they plan any raids, it must be 10 man or 15 man.