I got an idea. I think I'll go play golf tomorrow. But since I don't have as much time to practice as some players I'll go to the clubhouse and buy a token that let's me drop the ball in the hole once I reach the green. Guess that would be fun by your logic.
Ok, let's use your logic in my real life application...
When I started golfing I used my friends Ping G15 driver and would average around 210 on my drives... Once I saved up I went ahead and picked up a Ping Anser and my drives are now on average around 250..
Did the other golfers whine and complain that I was now paying to win? no because that club is available to everyone.
If someone paying a few bucks for a 200 use potion effects your game that much - back off and move on to something else... Or, forget about it - and have fun playing the game the way you want to.
If you can either buy an item from another player or farm it yourself, then nothing prevents you from playing the game exactly the way you want. You can just farm it, you don't have to buy it. The person spending money on the same item would not be better than you. They would have the exactly same gear. You would probably be better because you have more practice, but it wouldn't be because of the gear.
Close, but no cigar. Here is a better analogy:
For whatever reason, you enjoy handcrafting your golf club. You have plenty of time to sit all day in your workshop and work on that. John, on the other hand, also likes to play golf, but he doesn't really have as much time as you do, because he's got a demanding job, a family, or other responsibilities that prevent him from working on his own golf club for many hours. By your logic, John should not be allowed to compete on the golf course at all, unless he crafts his own club instead of just buying it from someone who crafted or manufactured it.
this guy keeps nailing it. it's all about time. i honestly wish i could spend the time i used to be able to in eq or vanguard, but i just can't now that i've been been out of college for years. so instead i put a little bit of the money i earn toward being able to enjoy an mmo at a level that folks who have all day to play can.
you're hard at work all day in-game, we're hard at work all day at our jobs or whathaveyou. we all work toward what we can acquire in-game no matter how you look at it. the means are just different.
this guy keeps nailing it. it's all about time. i honestly wish i could spend the time i used to be able to in eq or vanguard, but i just can't now that i've been been out of college for years. so instead i put a little bit of the money i earn toward being able to enjoy an mmo at a level that folks who have all day to play can.
you're hard at work all day in-game, we're hard at work all day at our jobs or whathaveyou. we all work toward what we can acquire in-game no matter how you look at it. the means are just different.
You are more right than you know.
What you describe is exactly what people don't want to see in a fantasy video game. In online fantasy games, it is expected that the world is a meritocracy. Your power in game is proportional to the skill and time you put into it. That's it. You want to buy power in the game, and while that is perfectly legitimate in and of itself, it goes against what the majority of people expect from an online fantasy game.
The whole point of it being a game, in a fantasy world, is that your real life wealth and success does not translate to the game. This is why people dislike P2W or any form of buying power in online video games. Their vision of a game is no more legitimate than yours, but with millions of fantasy gamers expecting games to reward skill and time, you can't be surprised when that dictates which games fail and which games succeed. Maybe it's not your preferred model, but the market will do what the market will do.
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berserkerkitten8Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Some clever guy once said: "When I was younger, I had lots of time to play MMOs. Today I have money."
They're not called respect tokens...
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johnny305Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
The game does have a few pay to win things in it. Pets for example help you in battle and you can buy one instantly with cash, if you play free you have to wait for a while til you lvl up and can get one through game play, but you are weaker without one until then. So cash makes you stronger in this instance.
So, it is buying power in this case. If they let you buy cooler looking ones but only after you reach a certain lvl it would not be pay to win. Buying XP to get to the lvl faster is also OK to me as its just to speed things up but they still need to earn it by playing.
Stuff like that is how this games cash shop works. There are instant power bossting things you can buy. Its not terrible, but still is pay to win.
People have always had jobs and played games, had school and play, had college and a job and play, had kids and play. Using that as an excuse that buying power is OK is lame.
How i see it, I will only buy cosmetics or things I dont consider pay to win and I will still beat people throwing money at the game, its always fun to be good at something without using "steroids" and beating the steroid users.
What you describe is exactly what people don't want to see in a fantasy video game. In online fantasy games, it is expected that the world is a meritocracy. Your power in game is proportional to the skill and time you put into it. That's it. You want to buy power in the game, and while that is perfectly legitimate in and of itself, it goes against what the majority of people expect from an online fantasy game.
The whole point of it being a game, in a fantasy world, is that your real life wealth and success does not translate to the game. This is why people dislike P2W or any form of buying power in online video games. Their vision of a game is no more legitimate than yours, but with millions of fantasy gamers expecting games to reward skill and time, you can't be surprised when that dictates which games fail and which games succeed. Maybe it's not your preferred model, but the market will do what the market will do.
You have no idea what the "majority" of people want in their fantasy games. Some folks love to see skill rewarded, but think that time-spent should not be an issue. After all, making someone more powerful because they have more hours of free time to do repetitive tasks, especially those that are easily doable by any trained monkey, is not exactly establishing a meritocracy. And when you consider that the fantasy game in question would not exist at all without the support of us paying folks, it gives me a great deal of cause to agree with you (that our viewpoint is legitimate).
Besides, a number of mmos continue to have great success by selling features just like NO is selling. So the cash shop items are clearly not dictating the success or failure of games.
What you describe is exactly what people don't want to see in a fantasy video game. In online fantasy games, it is expected that the world is a meritocracy. Your power in game is proportional to the skill and time you put into it. That's it. You want to buy power in the game, and while that is perfectly legitimate in and of itself, it goes against what the majority of people expect from an online fantasy game.
The whole point of it being a game, in a fantasy world, is that your real life wealth and success does not translate to the game. This is why people dislike P2W or any form of buying power in online video games. Their vision of a game is no more legitimate than yours, but with millions of fantasy gamers expecting games to reward skill and time, you can't be surprised when that dictates which games fail and which games succeed. Maybe it's not your preferred model, but the market will do what the market will do.
Actually, the statistics clearly show that the majority disagree with you. Games that offer nothing but fluff in the shop tend to sell far less than games that offer substantive things. If marginal improvement in actual capability is offered, sales go up, and ARPU goes up. Way up.
Most people with enough money to afford broadband have jobs and lives; they can't afford to grind a video game 50 hours a week, they're already grinding a job 50 hours a week. The folks spending the money are the customers; the folks playing for free are part of the product. Customer wins every time.
Some clever guy once said: "When I was younger, I had lots of time to play MMOs. Today I have money."
Amen to that. Here is a simple fact in both fantasy world and the one we live. "Those with the money makes the rules!"
Love it or hate it, it doesn't change the fact that it is true.
You have no idea what the "majority" of people want in their fantasy games. Some folks love to see skill rewarded, but think that time-spent should not be an issue. After all, making someone more powerful because they have more hours of free time to do repetitive tasks, especially those that are easily doable by any trained monkey, is not exactly establishing a meritocracy. And when you consider that the fantasy game in question would not exist at all without the support of us paying folks, it gives me a great deal of cause to agree with you (that our viewpoint is legitimate).
Besides, a number of mmos continue to have great success by selling features just like NO is selling. So the cash shop items are clearly not dictating the success or failure of games.
I don't like grinds anymore than the next person. But time spent, or call it effort if you like, is a fundamental part of these games. Good games are ones that make players spend time to improve without making it repetitive and pointless. Either way, the amount of power you have in a game has to have something to do with the amount of effort you put into it. In good games, your skill has a lot to do with how much time you spend playing - just like in real life, practice makes perfect. I agree that skill is more important than time in most cases, but time can't be thrown out altogether. If there was no time involved, MMOs would be no different than console fighters, where everyone is always on the exact same footing and skill is the only determining factor, which defeats the entire purpose of building and developing a character.
So, it is buying power in this case. If they let you buy cooler looking ones but only after you reach a certain lvl it would not be pay to win. Buying XP to get to the lvl faster is also OK to me as its just to speed things up but they still need to earn it by playing.
People have always had jobs and played games, had school and play, had college and a job and play, had kids and play. Using that as an excuse that buying power is OK is lame.
How i see it, I will only buy cosmetics or things I dont consider pay to win and I will still beat people throwing money at the game, its always fun to be good at something without using "steroids" and beating the steroid users.
Except these "steroids" don't have any effect in PvP, so you will never beat anyone using "steroids." And how have you decided that people with limited work hours or social lives, who can therefore play the game for hours more each day, deserve power. It's not like that makes you more skilled. It just means you have more time to grind.
I don't like grinds anymore than the next person. But time spent, or call it effort if you like, is a fundamental part of these games. Good games are ones that make players spend time to improve without making it repetitive and pointless. Either way, the amount of power you have in a game has to have something to do with the amount of effort you put into it. In good games, your skill has a lot to do with how much time you spend playing - just like in real life, practice makes perfect. I agree that skill is more important than time in most cases, but time can't be thrown out altogether. If there was no time involved, MMOs would be no different than console fighters, where everyone is always on the exact same footing and skill is the only determining factor, which defeats the entire purpose of building and developing a character.
Time can't be thrown out all together. However, why should that be more important than supporting the games continued development with money? What people think deserves rewarding is entirely subjective. Neither point is more valid than the other, because their is no objective way to decide which is more important. Many people with money and limited time think it is fair to pay for perks. Many people with no money and lots of time think the opposite. There are those on both sides who believe the opposite.
Actually, the statistics clearly show that the majority disagree with you. Games that offer nothing but fluff in the shop tend to sell far less than games that offer substantive things. If marginal improvement in actual capability is offered, sales go up, and ARPU goes up. Way up.
Most people with enough money to afford broadband have jobs and lives; they can't afford to grind a video game 50 hours a week, they're already grinding a job 50 hours a week. The folks spending the money are the customers; the folks playing for free are part of the product. Customer wins every time.
Where did I say anything about offering nothing but fluff in a shop? I said that gamers expect skill and time(effort) to be rewarded, and that is why P2W is such a sin. There are plenty of substantive things that can be offered, beyond mere fluff, that does not make a game P2W. NWO has a number of such things. I would never suggest that the most successful games are the ones with cash shops that have nothing but fluff, I didn't say anything even remotely close to that. Success in MMOs has everything to do with how good the game is. And good games are ones that reward skill and effort.
If you have statistics, you should link them.
Clearly you want to descend into hyperbole and ad hominem. Hardcore gamers don't have lives. Right. Never heard that one before. What is your point here? The MMO market has millions of people, millions of people who pay money for it, and those paying customers range from executives working 80 hours a week to the basement kids. You think that people who play 50 hours a week don't spend money on F2P games? That's delusional. I wouldn't be surprised to find that they pay more than most others. Are you trying to suggest that the millions of people in the MMO demographic prefer for money to be rewarded than skill and effort? Sounds more like you just feel like trolling to me.
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perfesserpoopMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited April 2013
I am very interested in Paying to Win. Where is win in the Zen shop and how much?
even the most serious concerns (resurrection scrolls) have already been addressed.
They have? Do tell. No sarcasm here, I would love to see how that issue as been addressed and I missed it. Please pop a link in.
Res Scrolls
Ward Stones
Health Stones
Are all P2W items. Just having the option to use a credit card as a free pass to beat a dungeon boss and reap the rewards is by definition P2W. I am unshakable in this opinion. If it gets to the point where even one person is flaming a player because he came into an end game dungeon w/o the best enchantments on his gear, or because he "gimped" his group by not having his own health stone, or because he "screwed" his group by not having a res scroll handy... then we are going to have a serious problem. Only time will tell though. I am reserving judgement on the issue until we see it first hand.
That being said however, I would consider this game soft P2W since none of these items (except perhaps the wardstones) are beneficial in PvP. And because you can't use Zen/Diamonds to buy the best gear/weapons, and because you can't use Zen/Diamonds to buy any significant stat boosts.
Cryptic is very aware of how detrimental the P2W label is to the success and healthy population of a game these days, and they have said numerous times that they are trying very hard to keep the P2W element out of the game. So at least they are aware of the issue, and are monitoring it very closely.
Cryptic is very aware of how detrimental the P2W label is to the success and healthy population of a game these days, and they have said numerous times that they are trying very hard to keep the P2W element out of the game. So at least they are aware of the issue, and are monitoring it very closely.
Great post, I agree with all of it. I like the term soft P2W, too. There are definitely much more severe forms of it that this game doesn't approach.
The part of your post I've quoted is good to hear. My worry is that their hands are tied by PWE. I also think they are going to make the mistake that a number of other MMOs make in failing to pace end-game content. I fear they won't be prepared for the outcry about lack of difficult content when the hardest content is beaten quickly with healthstones. The fact that they are insistent on testing content without the stones only further makes me believe that they aren't considering how important it is for games to have progressive content and challenges to strive for.
I think you all know from the beta threads on this topic where I stand. It all comes down to one very simple concept, well OK two of them.
1) Concerns valid, proof coming.
2) Your feedback is valid. Key word YOUR. Lets not get into discussions of perceptions here. Cryptic can put that together themselves based on the overall theme and feel of threads such as these. If something directly effects you like "my friends think" cool have at it, but the broad generalizations of "the interwebz community thinks" take far too many liberties and assume way too much. Even the most in touch of us will only represent a portion of such a broad picture.
Now my concerns are this.
1) Health stones. They had better not be an "I WIN" button. For now I am giving the benefit of the doubt until I learn more hands on.
2) Res Scrolls. I am already pretty OK with these. I don't really like them but I see them as a crutch and not something that I will use. The fact that you get a debuff once one is used on you, and cannot receiver the benefit of one again for something like 10-15 minutes limits their impact to an oops button IMO. Not ideal but not anything game breaking IMO.
3) Healing Scrolls. See health stones.
4) Mounts in PvP. Maybe a slight advantage but an advantage either way. Mounts in PvP need to be disabled or the speed in PvP needs to be normalized to the slowest mount. Sorry Cryptic, you dropped the ball on this one. Definitely a pay to win element and one that needs addressed asap.
5) Various cash shop items are OUT OF WHACK! While this is not a pay to win element, this is certainly something that leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I have already dropped $260 on this game. I will leave it a that because it is a side point for another thread.
6) Respec Tokens. First of all they should be free in the game. Secondly if they are priced they need to be much, much, lower. Now here is the thing. In order to grind out PvP gear it is going to take several hundred matches to get one item. However since there is no difference in PvP and PvE gear, other than the emphasis of the stats not their actual amounts, someone can indeed grind PvE to achieve a battle advantage in PvP. So not only does all of that above stuff become even more sinister, but I can now spend money to flip specs around and go get gear in PvE and swap to a PvP spec. Maybe a minor element, but when you consider the fact that it might take 4-5 respecs to find the optimal build and power set for PvP this becomes much more cumbersome.
I have defended Cryptic left and right, I have supported them with my money, I have put my faith into them and they have let me down. Cryptic please address this stuff. Do NOT make me regret giving you money, do NOT make me regret leaving DDO and WoW. And most of all, please, please, please, do NOT make me go back to them. I really love the game, I will give you plenty of money along the way, if only you can completely remove and stomp out every little pay to win element. There should not even be any questions of this period. End of story! While you are at that, remove the price gouging from the cash shop. I am looking at you consumables that cost more than character slots. I am looking at you companions that are one character purchases. I am looking at you inventory space that is more expensive than mule character slots.
Edit: I did not even touch lock box items.... The fact that you can "buy" a sword from lock boxes within days of the game launching.... definitely pay to win.
If i can get my toon everything it needs just by buying it then whats the point?
I wonder what's the point of playing games for these people anyway? To click a lot, to make your e-peen bigger then the others? If buying things make the game pointless for you then simply don't! Play as YOU want. Do not care what others do for their fun.
Edit: I did not even touch lock box items.... The fact that you can "buy" a sword from lock boxes within days of the game launching.... definitely pay to win.
I actually don't think this is pay-to-win, assuming that the same type of items also drop in the game. Furthermore, these items will be offered through the Auction House too, so they are available to everyone. Early on, prices in AD will be high, but in time they will settle down. This is no different from WoW where top BoE weapons were initially sold for huge sums of gold, which could be more easily obtained from those who bought gold. The crucial point, and we don't know this, is how heroic dungeon drops compare to lockbox drops.
I assume (again, we are all basing our views on incomplete information where we fill out the blanks with our guesses) that the boxes contain a random item. It may take many boxes to get an item that you actually want and will use. Everything else goes to the Auction House. If enough people do that, the AH will be flooded with good gear that free players can snatch up. From this perspective, the boxes may actually equalize the gear situation.
I think you all know from the beta threads on this topic where I stand. It all comes down to one very simple concept, well OK two of them.
1) Concerns valid, proof coming.
2) Your feedback is valid. Key word YOUR. Lets not get into discussions of perceptions here. Cryptic can put that together themselves based on the overall theme and feel of threads such as these. If something directly effects you like "my friends think" cool have at it, but the broad generalizations of "the interwebz community thinks" take far too many liberties and assume way too much. Even the most in touch of us will only represent a portion of such a broad picture.
Now my concerns are this.
1) Health stones. They had better not be an "I WIN" button. For now I am giving the benefit of the doubt until I learn more hands on.
2) Res Scrolls. I am already pretty OK with these. I don't really like them but I see them as a crutch and not something that I will use. The fact that you get a debuff once one is used on you, and cannot receiver the benefit of one again for something like 10-15 minutes limits their impact to an oops button IMO. Not ideal but not anything game breaking IMO.
3) Healing Scrolls. See health stones.
4) Mounts in PvP. Maybe a slight advantage but an advantage either way. Mounts in PvP need to be disabled or the speed in PvP needs to be normalized to the slowest mount. Sorry Cryptic, you dropped the ball on this one. Definitely a pay to win element and one that needs addressed asap.
5) Various cash shop items are OUT OF WHACK! While this is not a pay to win element, this is certainly something that leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I have already dropped $260 on this game. I will leave it a that because it is a side point for another thread.
6) Respec Tokens. First of all they should be free in the game. Secondly if they are priced they need to be much, much, lower. Now here is the thing. In order to grind out PvP gear it is going to take several hundred matches to get one item. However since there is no difference in PvP and PvE gear, other than the emphasis of the stats not their actual amounts, someone can indeed grind PvE to achieve a battle advantage in PvP. So not only does all of that above stuff become even more sinister, but I can now spend money to flip specs around and go get gear in PvE and swap to a PvP spec. Maybe a minor element, but when you consider the fact that it might take 4-5 respecs to find the optimal build and power set for PvP this becomes much more cumbersome.
I have defended Cryptic left and right, I have supported them with my money, I have put my faith into them and they have let me down. Cryptic please address this stuff. Do NOT make me regret giving you money, do NOT make me regret leaving DDO and WoW. And most of all, please, please, please, do NOT make me go back to them. I really love the game, I will give you plenty of money along the way, if only you can completely remove and stomp out every little pay to win element. There should not even be any questions of this period. End of story! While you are at that, remove the price gouging from the cash shop. I am looking at you consumables that cost more than character slots. I am looking at you companions that are one character purchases. I am looking at you inventory space that is more expensive than mule character slots.
Edit: I did not even touch lock box items.... The fact that you can "buy" a sword from lock boxes within days of the game launching.... definitely pay to win.
Yes all of this is what I see also. When a company starts this way at launch, they may add even more P2W aspects to the cash shop later on.
The respec can really kill this game. I can see so many people stuck with a bad build and then not wanting to pay high prices to respec over and over and just give up and quit playing.
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I actually don't think this is pay-to-win, assuming that the same type of items also drop in the game. Furthermore, these items will be offered through the Auction House too, so they are available to everyone. Early on, prices in AD will be high, but in time they will settle down. This is no different from WoW where top BoE weapons were initially sold for huge sums of gold, which could be more easily obtained from those who bought gold. The crucial point, and we don't know this, is how heroic dungeon drops compare to lockbox drops.
I assume (again, we are all basing our views on incomplete information where we fill out the blanks with our guesses) that the boxes contain a random item. It may take many boxes to get an item that you actually want and will use. Everything else goes to the Auction House. If enough people do that, the AH will be flooded with good gear that free players can snatch up. From this perspective, the boxes may actually equalize the gear situation.
Yes, we know you think its not P2W. So answer this with a simple answer, no double talk and BS. Did you pay $200 to gain an advantage or did you pay $200 for fluff, nothing that in game can help you out?
Beyond the longest river in the world rhetoric here the last few pages on this thread have been some great posts. With VERY poignant questions that deserve answers from higher up. One thing I will 100% agree with you on is we are basing a LOT on incomplete information. That alone is inexcusable for a company asking for money. Answers to simple questions like "is endgame gear BOP or BOE" would go a long way.
Yes, we know you think its not P2W. So answer this with a simple answer, no double talk and BS. Did you pay $200 to gain an advantage or did you pay $200 for fluff, nothing that in game can help you out?
No, I didn't spend $200 to have an advantage (I don't even consider this an advantage, based on what I expect -- see my take on the lockbox items, which you didn't comment on). Sad as it may seem to you, I bought the pack for the panther and the early access. Everything else is nice and stuff I would have gotten anyway (character slots, bags, respec token, ADs for AH playing since I enjoy the economical aspects in MMOs), so I didn't feel too crazy for spending the cash, but yes, the panther and the access were the chief reasons. I'll add that $200 isn't a bank-breaking sum for me and that I typically spend more than this on video games or other hobbies per month.
One thing I will 100% agree with you on is we are basing a LOT on incomplete information. That alone is inexcusable for a company asking for money. Answers to simple questions like "is endgame gear BOP or BOE" would go a long way.
I agree that more information would help the speculations, though it's somewhat typical for MMOs. But yes, I would like to know some answers too, and I don't actually disagree with some of the suggestions. I'm perfectly fine with normalizing mount speed and disabling the health stone (I didn't even realize it existed before this thread) in PvP. The latter is something I assume will be the case anyway, but again, incomplete information, so we are all just making guesses.
On a side note, my interest in Neverwinter is mostly PvE. I ran premades in other MMOs for years and I burnt out on it, the drama, the hostility that PvP always creates. As there is no rating system here, no actually competitive framework, my interest in PvP is not all that strong. I will PvP, but I think it's mostly an afterthought in NW at this point, which is also why I don't really think stuff like mount speed in low-level PvP is a really big deal (and that the respec issue is more problematic). I also see no point in assuming the worst case scenarios and then discussing them as if they were facts. They may be. They may not. We'll just have to wait. You lose nothing by doing so.
A common theme that I see amongst the more mature contributors to this and other threads seems to be a "cautiously wait and see" approach. We've all heard it before. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Many of our concerns stem from gut feelings we have based on years of experience with other MMOs. I am no spring chicken. I have learned to trust my gut.
My head says:Have faith in the boys and gals and Cryptic. They are gamers themselves at heart and have demonstrated a willingness to make changes based on forum feedback. And they have said repeatedly that P2W is off the table.
My gut says: While there aren't any hardcore P2W options in the game, the ones that currently exist have the potential to cause an endless amount of griefing and drama.
My head says:They need to make money somehow. Games are expensive, salaries and wages must be paid, and there is a competent marketing team that has decided that the current Zen store options are optimized for both high profit margins and consumer satisfaction.
My gut says:That is a load of garbage. The amount of money they have made already from founders packs and Zen purchases has likely far surpassed what they would have gotten thus far from box sales. And cosmetics sell far too effectively to risk getting tagged P2W by selling anything other than fluff and cosmetics.
My head says:Cryptic loves this game. They want it to succeed and they want their player base to enjoy the game they have created with blood, sweat, and tears. Be patient.
My gut says:PWE is in charge now. Nuf said.
Your gut will seldom lead you astray. Especially around dinner time. But sometimes it does. Sometimes it tells you to eat that thing in the fridge because it doesn't smell bad, and it turned out to be a terrible mistake. Well we have already eaten that thing in the fridge. All we can do now is wait and see if we get a belly ache
As a veteran of Runes of Magic and Allods Online, this will potentially be my third time getting fooled. To be fair I knew what I was getting into the second time, and I kinda know now.
Rationalize these systems anyway you want, "combating" gold sellers and what not, the concept of essentially allowing (through zen to AD exchange) people to buy gear, is P2W. Don't fool yourself.
That being said, the game looks awesome, and for some reason, probably black magic, I am incredibly hyped for it. I think it just might be worth the potential belly ache above poster mentioned.
My gut says:That is a load of garbage. The amount of money they have made already from founders packs and Zen purchases has likely far surpassed what they would have gotten thus far from box sales.
I really, really doubt that. Even a mediocre (but better advertised) B2P like Defiance sold several 100k of units around launch. I doubt that there are more than a couple thousand founders. The advantage of B2P is the extra hype and attention a game gets. Just being listed in the "coming soon" list at Steam is a major marketing benefit. As it stands, none of my MMO-playing friends had even heard of Neverwinter before I mentioned it.
But this is all just guesswork. We don't have numbers, or much other information. Like you said, it's all "wait and see" at this point What we do know is that the game's combat is excellent and that it has a ton of features.
Comments
Yes, you can use mounts in battlegrounds or what they are called.
Ok, let's use your logic in my real life application...
When I started golfing I used my friends Ping G15 driver and would average around 210 on my drives... Once I saved up I went ahead and picked up a Ping Anser and my drives are now on average around 250..
Did the other golfers whine and complain that I was now paying to win? no because that club is available to everyone.
If someone paying a few bucks for a 200 use potion effects your game that much - back off and move on to something else... Or, forget about it - and have fun playing the game the way you want to.
this guy keeps nailing it. it's all about time. i honestly wish i could spend the time i used to be able to in eq or vanguard, but i just can't now that i've been been out of college for years. so instead i put a little bit of the money i earn toward being able to enjoy an mmo at a level that folks who have all day to play can.
you're hard at work all day in-game, we're hard at work all day at our jobs or whathaveyou. we all work toward what we can acquire in-game no matter how you look at it. the means are just different.
What you describe is exactly what people don't want to see in a fantasy video game. In online fantasy games, it is expected that the world is a meritocracy. Your power in game is proportional to the skill and time you put into it. That's it. You want to buy power in the game, and while that is perfectly legitimate in and of itself, it goes against what the majority of people expect from an online fantasy game.
The whole point of it being a game, in a fantasy world, is that your real life wealth and success does not translate to the game. This is why people dislike P2W or any form of buying power in online video games. Their vision of a game is no more legitimate than yours, but with millions of fantasy gamers expecting games to reward skill and time, you can't be surprised when that dictates which games fail and which games succeed. Maybe it's not your preferred model, but the market will do what the market will do.
So, it is buying power in this case. If they let you buy cooler looking ones but only after you reach a certain lvl it would not be pay to win. Buying XP to get to the lvl faster is also OK to me as its just to speed things up but they still need to earn it by playing.
Stuff like that is how this games cash shop works. There are instant power bossting things you can buy. Its not terrible, but still is pay to win.
People have always had jobs and played games, had school and play, had college and a job and play, had kids and play. Using that as an excuse that buying power is OK is lame.
How i see it, I will only buy cosmetics or things I dont consider pay to win and I will still beat people throwing money at the game, its always fun to be good at something without using "steroids" and beating the steroid users.
You have no idea what the "majority" of people want in their fantasy games. Some folks love to see skill rewarded, but think that time-spent should not be an issue. After all, making someone more powerful because they have more hours of free time to do repetitive tasks, especially those that are easily doable by any trained monkey, is not exactly establishing a meritocracy. And when you consider that the fantasy game in question would not exist at all without the support of us paying folks, it gives me a great deal of cause to agree with you (that our viewpoint is legitimate).
Besides, a number of mmos continue to have great success by selling features just like NO is selling. So the cash shop items are clearly not dictating the success or failure of games.
Actually, the statistics clearly show that the majority disagree with you. Games that offer nothing but fluff in the shop tend to sell far less than games that offer substantive things. If marginal improvement in actual capability is offered, sales go up, and ARPU goes up. Way up.
Most people with enough money to afford broadband have jobs and lives; they can't afford to grind a video game 50 hours a week, they're already grinding a job 50 hours a week. The folks spending the money are the customers; the folks playing for free are part of the product. Customer wins every time.
Amen to that. Here is a simple fact in both fantasy world and the one we live. "Those with the money makes the rules!"
Love it or hate it, it doesn't change the fact that it is true.
http://rockbottom.enjin.com
Except these "steroids" don't have any effect in PvP, so you will never beat anyone using "steroids." And how have you decided that people with limited work hours or social lives, who can therefore play the game for hours more each day, deserve power. It's not like that makes you more skilled. It just means you have more time to grind.
Time can't be thrown out all together. However, why should that be more important than supporting the games continued development with money? What people think deserves rewarding is entirely subjective. Neither point is more valid than the other, because their is no objective way to decide which is more important. Many people with money and limited time think it is fair to pay for perks. Many people with no money and lots of time think the opposite. There are those on both sides who believe the opposite.
I like to read your post and agree with them but the words all get blurred together when written in this manner.
If you have statistics, you should link them.
Clearly you want to descend into hyperbole and ad hominem. Hardcore gamers don't have lives. Right. Never heard that one before. What is your point here? The MMO market has millions of people, millions of people who pay money for it, and those paying customers range from executives working 80 hours a week to the basement kids. You think that people who play 50 hours a week don't spend money on F2P games? That's delusional. I wouldn't be surprised to find that they pay more than most others. Are you trying to suggest that the millions of people in the MMO demographic prefer for money to be rewarded than skill and effort? Sounds more like you just feel like trolling to me.
They have? Do tell. No sarcasm here, I would love to see how that issue as been addressed and I missed it. Please pop a link in.
Res Scrolls
Ward Stones
Health Stones
Are all P2W items. Just having the option to use a credit card as a free pass to beat a dungeon boss and reap the rewards is by definition P2W. I am unshakable in this opinion. If it gets to the point where even one person is flaming a player because he came into an end game dungeon w/o the best enchantments on his gear, or because he "gimped" his group by not having his own health stone, or because he "screwed" his group by not having a res scroll handy... then we are going to have a serious problem. Only time will tell though. I am reserving judgement on the issue until we see it first hand.
That being said however, I would consider this game soft P2W since none of these items (except perhaps the wardstones) are beneficial in PvP. And because you can't use Zen/Diamonds to buy the best gear/weapons, and because you can't use Zen/Diamonds to buy any significant stat boosts.
Cryptic is very aware of how detrimental the P2W label is to the success and healthy population of a game these days, and they have said numerous times that they are trying very hard to keep the P2W element out of the game. So at least they are aware of the issue, and are monitoring it very closely.
The part of your post I've quoted is good to hear. My worry is that their hands are tied by PWE. I also think they are going to make the mistake that a number of other MMOs make in failing to pace end-game content. I fear they won't be prepared for the outcry about lack of difficult content when the hardest content is beaten quickly with healthstones. The fact that they are insistent on testing content without the stones only further makes me believe that they aren't considering how important it is for games to have progressive content and challenges to strive for.
I share that concern.
1) Concerns valid, proof coming.
2) Your feedback is valid. Key word YOUR. Lets not get into discussions of perceptions here. Cryptic can put that together themselves based on the overall theme and feel of threads such as these. If something directly effects you like "my friends think" cool have at it, but the broad generalizations of "the interwebz community thinks" take far too many liberties and assume way too much. Even the most in touch of us will only represent a portion of such a broad picture.
Now my concerns are this.
1) Health stones. They had better not be an "I WIN" button. For now I am giving the benefit of the doubt until I learn more hands on.
2) Res Scrolls. I am already pretty OK with these. I don't really like them but I see them as a crutch and not something that I will use. The fact that you get a debuff once one is used on you, and cannot receiver the benefit of one again for something like 10-15 minutes limits their impact to an oops button IMO. Not ideal but not anything game breaking IMO.
3) Healing Scrolls. See health stones.
4) Mounts in PvP. Maybe a slight advantage but an advantage either way. Mounts in PvP need to be disabled or the speed in PvP needs to be normalized to the slowest mount. Sorry Cryptic, you dropped the ball on this one. Definitely a pay to win element and one that needs addressed asap.
5) Various cash shop items are OUT OF WHACK! While this is not a pay to win element, this is certainly something that leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I have already dropped $260 on this game. I will leave it a that because it is a side point for another thread.
6) Respec Tokens. First of all they should be free in the game. Secondly if they are priced they need to be much, much, lower. Now here is the thing. In order to grind out PvP gear it is going to take several hundred matches to get one item. However since there is no difference in PvP and PvE gear, other than the emphasis of the stats not their actual amounts, someone can indeed grind PvE to achieve a battle advantage in PvP. So not only does all of that above stuff become even more sinister, but I can now spend money to flip specs around and go get gear in PvE and swap to a PvP spec. Maybe a minor element, but when you consider the fact that it might take 4-5 respecs to find the optimal build and power set for PvP this becomes much more cumbersome.
I have defended Cryptic left and right, I have supported them with my money, I have put my faith into them and they have let me down. Cryptic please address this stuff. Do NOT make me regret giving you money, do NOT make me regret leaving DDO and WoW. And most of all, please, please, please, do NOT make me go back to them. I really love the game, I will give you plenty of money along the way, if only you can completely remove and stomp out every little pay to win element. There should not even be any questions of this period. End of story! While you are at that, remove the price gouging from the cash shop. I am looking at you consumables that cost more than character slots. I am looking at you companions that are one character purchases. I am looking at you inventory space that is more expensive than mule character slots.
Edit: I did not even touch lock box items.... The fact that you can "buy" a sword from lock boxes within days of the game launching.... definitely pay to win.
I actually don't think this is pay-to-win, assuming that the same type of items also drop in the game. Furthermore, these items will be offered through the Auction House too, so they are available to everyone. Early on, prices in AD will be high, but in time they will settle down. This is no different from WoW where top BoE weapons were initially sold for huge sums of gold, which could be more easily obtained from those who bought gold. The crucial point, and we don't know this, is how heroic dungeon drops compare to lockbox drops.
I assume (again, we are all basing our views on incomplete information where we fill out the blanks with our guesses) that the boxes contain a random item. It may take many boxes to get an item that you actually want and will use. Everything else goes to the Auction House. If enough people do that, the AH will be flooded with good gear that free players can snatch up. From this perspective, the boxes may actually equalize the gear situation.
Yes all of this is what I see also. When a company starts this way at launch, they may add even more P2W aspects to the cash shop later on.
The respec can really kill this game. I can see so many people stuck with a bad build and then not wanting to pay high prices to respec over and over and just give up and quit playing.
Yes, we know you think its not P2W. So answer this with a simple answer, no double talk and BS. Did you pay $200 to gain an advantage or did you pay $200 for fluff, nothing that in game can help you out?
Beyond the longest river in the world rhetoric here the last few pages on this thread have been some great posts. With VERY poignant questions that deserve answers from higher up. One thing I will 100% agree with you on is we are basing a LOT on incomplete information. That alone is inexcusable for a company asking for money. Answers to simple questions like "is endgame gear BOP or BOE" would go a long way.
No, I didn't spend $200 to have an advantage (I don't even consider this an advantage, based on what I expect -- see my take on the lockbox items, which you didn't comment on). Sad as it may seem to you, I bought the pack for the panther and the early access. Everything else is nice and stuff I would have gotten anyway (character slots, bags, respec token, ADs for AH playing since I enjoy the economical aspects in MMOs), so I didn't feel too crazy for spending the cash, but yes, the panther and the access were the chief reasons. I'll add that $200 isn't a bank-breaking sum for me and that I typically spend more than this on video games or other hobbies per month.
I agree that more information would help the speculations, though it's somewhat typical for MMOs. But yes, I would like to know some answers too, and I don't actually disagree with some of the suggestions. I'm perfectly fine with normalizing mount speed and disabling the health stone (I didn't even realize it existed before this thread) in PvP. The latter is something I assume will be the case anyway, but again, incomplete information, so we are all just making guesses.
On a side note, my interest in Neverwinter is mostly PvE. I ran premades in other MMOs for years and I burnt out on it, the drama, the hostility that PvP always creates. As there is no rating system here, no actually competitive framework, my interest in PvP is not all that strong. I will PvP, but I think it's mostly an afterthought in NW at this point, which is also why I don't really think stuff like mount speed in low-level PvP is a really big deal (and that the respec issue is more problematic). I also see no point in assuming the worst case scenarios and then discussing them as if they were facts. They may be. They may not. We'll just have to wait. You lose nothing by doing so.
My head says: Have faith in the boys and gals and Cryptic. They are gamers themselves at heart and have demonstrated a willingness to make changes based on forum feedback. And they have said repeatedly that P2W is off the table.
My gut says: While there aren't any hardcore P2W options in the game, the ones that currently exist have the potential to cause an endless amount of griefing and drama.
My head says: They need to make money somehow. Games are expensive, salaries and wages must be paid, and there is a competent marketing team that has decided that the current Zen store options are optimized for both high profit margins and consumer satisfaction.
My gut says: That is a load of garbage. The amount of money they have made already from founders packs and Zen purchases has likely far surpassed what they would have gotten thus far from box sales. And cosmetics sell far too effectively to risk getting tagged P2W by selling anything other than fluff and cosmetics.
My head says: Cryptic loves this game. They want it to succeed and they want their player base to enjoy the game they have created with blood, sweat, and tears. Be patient.
My gut says: PWE is in charge now. Nuf said.
Your gut will seldom lead you astray. Especially around dinner time. But sometimes it does. Sometimes it tells you to eat that thing in the fridge because it doesn't smell bad, and it turned out to be a terrible mistake. Well we have already eaten that thing in the fridge. All we can do now is wait and see if we get a belly ache
Rationalize these systems anyway you want, "combating" gold sellers and what not, the concept of essentially allowing (through zen to AD exchange) people to buy gear, is P2W. Don't fool yourself.
That being said, the game looks awesome, and for some reason, probably black magic, I am incredibly hyped for it. I think it just might be worth the potential belly ache above poster mentioned.
I really, really doubt that. Even a mediocre (but better advertised) B2P like Defiance sold several 100k of units around launch. I doubt that there are more than a couple thousand founders. The advantage of B2P is the extra hype and attention a game gets. Just being listed in the "coming soon" list at Steam is a major marketing benefit. As it stands, none of my MMO-playing friends had even heard of Neverwinter before I mentioned it.
But this is all just guesswork. We don't have numbers, or much other information. Like you said, it's all "wait and see" at this point What we do know is that the game's combat is excellent and that it has a ton of features.
That would be the Greater Health Stone. $15 for 200 uses.