ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited April 2013
I'm not interested in PvP in the least. Not the slightest tinsy bit.
But I have and always will be extremely concerned with P2W in every game. I play games to do well in them and part of that is being rewarded for investing time and effort into the game. When games cross the line into P2W everybody suffers.
PvP worries about pride in winning. PvE worries about pride in their time.
'Win' is a universal term which means something different to everybody but overall if you don't have pride in game accomplishments you might as well not play.
That being said Neverwinter is nowhere near crossing that line. The big issue with P2W is when companies profit off the sale of people's time by artificially adding items into the game.
But this doesn't happen in Neverwinter. Sure there are some people who buy gear with real world cash but who wins? We all do!
I get the AD from their purchase. Some other person gets the Zen for his Astral Diamonds.
So yes one guy gets some good items by paying real cash, but that real cash gets divied out to real players rather than directly to the company. We don't fall behind the players who buy gear with cash.
And even the more questionable items such as health stones...
I have never felt like I needed them. If people waste money on them more power to them. I have much better things to buy with my AD/Zen.
I really want to like this game but from what I have read it seems to be one of the worst offenders of pay to win yet. If i can get my toon everything it needs just by buying it then whats the point?
I hope Ive just missed somthing but when i hear that its ok they charge 40 bucks for a mount because it would take forever to get a mount earned in game to level 3 i just cringe.
I want whatever you are smoking.
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kotliMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 577
edited April 2013
You can upgrade mounts/companions with AD earned in game.
The onlything that the cash shop has that equivalent cant be gotten by other means is the healthstone (100% heal) but well this can be replaced by drinking an extra pot or drinking pots more often as nothing in game going to hit you for enough damage to force you to have to use it. IE Healthstone is only needed if you don't bother dodging the big splat attacks.
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If you can either buy an item from another player or farm it yourself, then nothing prevents you from playing the game exactly the way you want. You can just farm it, you don't have to buy it. The person spending money on the same item would not be better than you. They would have the exactly same gear. You would probably be better because you have more practice, but it wouldn't be because of the gear.
Close, but no cigar. Here is a better analogy:
For whatever reason, you enjoy handcrafting your golf club. You have plenty of time to sit all day in your workshop and work on that. John, on the other hand, also likes to play golf, but he doesn't really have as much time as you do, because he's got a demanding job, a family, or other responsibilities that prevent him from working on his own golf club for many hours. By your logic, John should not be allowed to compete on the golf course at all, unless he crafts his own club instead of just buying it from someone who crafted or manufactured it.
I compared a game with a game. You compared a job with a game. Somehow in your mind that's a better analogy. Just like most people accept golf as a game, but not crafting of clubs, most people view the development of your character as the "win" part of MMOs. Its impossible to deny that's been the traditional goal of MMOs. When you aren't playing the game to develop your character but instead paying RL money, what are you doing? Find a phrase your comfortable with since calling it what it is seems to offend those doing it.
I gotta say at least there is some great entertainment watching the ridiculous conjecture, the downplaying, and the denial. Multiple people saying 200 charge instant heal items are no big deal ftw. Seriously if you guys want to pay to have an edge just say it already. If you want to pay to "win" faster than someone just playing say it. Be honest about it ffs.
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maddmojoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited April 2013
Game is pay to win. Period.
You can take real world money and convert it into money to buy off the auction house. people that dont will not be able to afford items off the AH because prices will be inflated. Same reason noone likes gold sellers in wow.
Winning in an mmo is about accomishments achieved through time and effort. im all for cash shops that sell cosmetic itemz, but not items that give you an ingame advantage
You can take real world money and convert it into money to buy off the auction house. people that dont will not be able to afford items off the AH because prices will be inflated. Same reason noone likes gold sellers in wow.
Winning in an mmo is about accomplishments achieved through time and effort. im all for cash shops that sell cosmetic itemz, but not items that give you an ingame advantage
Zen Store doesn't sell armor, doesn't sell weapons. you talked about the AH and using Zen to buy from there. that is not the same as Cryptic putting gear on the AH.
From the AH players have to get the gear to post. Whereas the Store items are added by Cryptic/PW. Also note that AD has a limited supply. We can gain 24k AD per day via refining. (founders pack has AD i know. that's an exception for now.)
I'll agree with you that in 4-6 months a new person with Zen can purchase a full set of Lv60 gear.
Open the Launcher. Click Options near the top. Check Disable on-demand patching. This will download another couple of gigs.
colhatickMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
As long as you can't buy the best gear in the game on the AH then it's not pay to win. I can buy max level gear off the WoW AH but does it mean I'm as strong as someone who gets gear from heroic raids? Not even close.
Game is pay to win. Period. You can take real world money and convert it into money to buy off the auction house. people that dont will not be able to afford items off the AH because prices will be inflated. Same reason noone likes gold sellers in wow.
The game is not pay-to-win, no matter how you spin it.
The store is not selling any weapons or armor, so all the gear is coming from in-game drops. It comes from other players. Yes, you can buy Astral Diamonds and then use them to buy an item from another player. Just like in WoW you can use gold to buy items from other players (including BoPs, because raid guilds sell spots in their raids), and whether or not you like it, plenty of people in WoW do buy gold. Blizzard has been tolerating it for years. It's what happens in every game, and here you can actually do it safely without risking to get hacked like in WoW.
Consider, also, that this means that if you never spend any money on the game, and you are a good player, you can actually make Astral Diamonds and Zen by selling your loot drops! You will likely still have better gear because presumably you will use the best stuff for yourself and just sell spares or things you don't need. This is about as far from being pay-to-win as it can be. Pay-to-win would be if you buy weapons in the cash store that don't drop in the game. This is not the case in Neverwinter.
The game seems to be p2w free except for the mounts in pvp below level 60. As I understand it, people who buy mounts can have a rank 3 purple mount that is difficult to be dismounted from and has the fastest speed at level 20; people who don't buy a mount can only train a mount to rank 3 at level 60 (and it takes a lot of resources to do so). For any serious pvper that is a p2w element, although I see many pver's on the board erroneously claim otherwise.
Its like letting a player who pays have the best weapon at level 20, while non payers have to wait until level 60. Or you can pay to have a magic item that gives you a huge out of combat speed boost from level 20 that is normally only available at level 60. You get the picture?
Luckily pvp isn't a big focus of the game and I don't see any p2w elements for pve. Also, to me at least, the option to pay for faster leveling and such is quite welcome.
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starkaosMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Considering that a person has to dismount to PvP and they have to get out of combat mode to escape on a mount, then having a rank 3 mount is a very small part of PvP.
Honestly, i would argue against neverwinter proposing p2w naturally, but first time looking/andor studying for my business exam ( last exam in for comp sci degree ) HUH, lol i remember neverwinter saying maybe a year ago that they are "teaming up with" perfect world for the the knowledge of the free to play market in asia, but that's completely disregarding cultural identity:
as asians will be less proximety concered, they will also be more long to orientated (generally, maybe not thailand)
the north american market is short term oriented
and this inspires/adapts/effects the people(buyers), we want to be the best right away and show it, leaving asians more humble in said sense and aspiring to greatest through effort rather than being "upset -> buying everything and being "LOL You Noobs": to show superiority over others"
this fact will affect a of people group initially, people that also want to be that best an assert it but don't want to waste money, and i believe(hypothesis.. more assumptions with just this second of thought) it'll ripple through the culture of the player base and upset more and more not naturally uninclined to aspire in such an ( envious || benevolent ) way ( don't know how else to classify these emotions ) to feel the same way to the situation as in under appreciation/lack of accomplisment
and this leaves us ( north america ), scared of such an occurance.
would love to here comments, since i just proposed this and considered of the top of my head really?.. wanna argue/debate, im highly aware i'm probably missing something
it's implicit that play to win is what i said based on my informally imposed "categorical idea of win" <- incase someone disputes my relevance.. its a random continuation to this thread in terms of the basis of our business market in general, not subset'd to this directly i guess; additional north amercian economy aspects.
Considering that a person has to dismount to PvP and they have to get out of combat mode to escape on a mount, then having a rank 3 mount is a very small part of PvP.
An item that gives you double out of combat run speed that can only be obtained by purchasing through the cash shop is indeed both a huge advantage in pvp and a p2w element in the game. You obviously have little experience or interest in pvp if all you equate run speed to is "escape".
An item that gives you double out of combat run speed that can only be obtained by purchasing through the cash shop is indeed both a huge advantage in pvp and a p2w element in the game.
You can train mounts to have the same speed as the already-trained mounts you can get from the cash store. The means to do the training are available by just playing the game. Yes, there is a period of time where the faster mounts offer an advantage, until the mounts of the free players have caught up.
However, you do not win a domination map simply by being first at the nodes. You win it by managing to hold the nodes long enough and that is determined by skill and teamwork. Having a healer on your team, and fewer GWFs, is likely to have a larger impact. It is a valid point, but we probably weigh the impact on actual PvP matches differently.
$40 for a mount = Pay to win...
My friend, you are in fact missing something.
There is nothing in the cash shop we can't earn by playing the game free of charge. You earn AD, turn those into Zen, buy the apparently super op mount of victory. So far it seems here in NW, you play to win.
-Good day
They said the same about Planetside 2 except for the fact that the grinding required to obtain a weapon through in-game means was insane, which very much..."encouraged" people to just fork over the real cash and unlock it via the cash shop.
So please don't use such arguments when the developers of games with a cash shop make **** sure their players are motivated enough to actually give them money rather than working for it in the game.
You can train mounts to have the same speed as the already-trained mounts you can get from the cash store. The means to do the training are available by just playing the game. Yes, there is a period of time where the faster mounts offer an advantage, until the mounts of the free players have caught up.
However, you do not win a domination map simply by being first at the nodes. You win it by managing to hold the nodes long enough and that is determined by skill and teamwork. Having a healer on your team, and fewer GWFs, is likely to have a larger impact. It is a valid point, but we probably weigh the impact on actual PvP matches differently.
You may have slightly missed my point: it is impossible to train a mount to rank 3 before level 60. If it were possible but just took time then it would be mainly a non issue.
However, I've probably harped on about this enough, really its only a fairly small element in the overall scheme of things, and it won't stop me from playing anyway. Mounts are almost a compulsory buy at some point if you like alts (as I do) and the luxury of being able to buy an account wide fast mount is something I actually rather like.
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
He didn't miss the point. He sees it plainly as he dances around it.
Me- hey guys I need to go catch a bus to the airport.
Hero of the North buyers- oh, you can't take a bus to the airport. You can take a bus or a train to the airport. Can't you see how that's totally not taking a bus to the airport?
Low-level PvP is not relevant from a competitive perspective, and neither the classes nor the convenience items should be balanced around it. Same as in every other MMO with low-level PvP. And at level 60, which does not take long to reach, you can take the bus or the train. All for free, too.
Low-level PvP is not relevant from a competitive perspective, and neither the classes nor the convenience items should be balanced around it. Same as in every other MMO with low-level PvP. And at level 60, which does not take long to reach, you can take the bus or the train. All for free, too.
Its free to take a bus or train now? Hey anything that "proves" you can't pay to gain an edge in this game right? Having a rare weapon at 60 and going into PVP vs others who don't isn't an advantage. You can earn that weapon in time for free... Instant click full heals, not a big deal...
We do not know anything about that weapon yet. Who says the heroic dungeons will not drop the same stuff? You assume the worst and then promote it as a fact when in truth there is a lot of stuff that is not known to us yet. Since the game is free, and you are opposed to paying anyway, you can lose nothing by just waiting until complete information is available.
What is true is that people who spend money on the game do get things faster. If you opt for playing for free, it takes you longer. That is how the model works. You can spend some money, as you would with other games too, if you want. It is a choice you make. And Neverwinter gives you more choice than other games, because they do not let you play for free at all.
kotliMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 577
edited April 2013
BTW in PvP you can only use Pots that are brought with PvP currency also if you PvP a lot you should have enough Glory to buy good level 60 weapons etc from the PvP shop.
@OP, I do think you missed something, it is called a search button. There have probably been a hundred threads on this debate and really the best thing is to just try it for free on April 30th and decide for yourself.
This entire topic is highly subjective and speculative and there is absolutely no definitive answer without seeing how things are in launch for months down the road.
An item that gives you double out of combat run speed that can only be obtained by purchasing through the cash shop is indeed both a huge advantage in pvp and a p2w element in the game. You obviously have little experience or interest in pvp if all you equate run speed to is "escape".
And if you think zerg-rushing nodes is effective strategy, your PvP experience is obviously from low levels in old games, with groups of random bads.
And if you think zerg-rushing nodes is effective strategy, your PvP experience is obviously from low levels in old games, with groups of random bads.
Where do you deduce that I think "zerg-rushing nodes is effective strategy" from my post? If you cannot see how a huge boost in out of combat movement speed is an enormous benefit in a capture the node type pvp game outside of "escape" and "zerg the node" you obviously have no clue about pvp, as I said previously.
Where do you deduce that I think "zerg-rushing nodes is effective strategy" from my post? If you cannot see how a huge boost in out of combat movement speed is an enormous benefit in a capture the node type pvp game outside of "escape" and "zerg the node" you obviously have no clue about pvp, as I said previously.
An advantage that disappears at high level, which is where 99% of PvP is going to happen, and 100% of PvP that anybody cares about.
And an advantage that at low levels is barely existent, because it does nothing to help you HOLD those nodes; if you run around capping nodes by yourself, you'll just lose them five seconds later when the slowpokes show up.
This will dominate PvP for a week, and then nobody will care anymore.
Comments
But I have and always will be extremely concerned with P2W in every game. I play games to do well in them and part of that is being rewarded for investing time and effort into the game. When games cross the line into P2W everybody suffers.
PvP worries about pride in winning. PvE worries about pride in their time.
'Win' is a universal term which means something different to everybody but overall if you don't have pride in game accomplishments you might as well not play.
That being said Neverwinter is nowhere near crossing that line. The big issue with P2W is when companies profit off the sale of people's time by artificially adding items into the game.
But this doesn't happen in Neverwinter. Sure there are some people who buy gear with real world cash but who wins? We all do!
I get the AD from their purchase. Some other person gets the Zen for his Astral Diamonds.
So yes one guy gets some good items by paying real cash, but that real cash gets divied out to real players rather than directly to the company. We don't fall behind the players who buy gear with cash.
And even the more questionable items such as health stones...
I have never felt like I needed them. If people waste money on them more power to them. I have much better things to buy with my AD/Zen.
Mounts come in 3 ranks. The better the rank, the faster the mount. However, it is not necessary to get the best mount.
The onlything that the cash shop has that equivalent cant be gotten by other means is the healthstone (100% heal) but well this can be replaced by drinking an extra pot or drinking pots more often as nothing in game going to hit you for enough damage to force you to have to use it. IE Healthstone is only needed if you don't bother dodging the big splat attacks.
I compared a game with a game. You compared a job with a game. Somehow in your mind that's a better analogy. Just like most people accept golf as a game, but not crafting of clubs, most people view the development of your character as the "win" part of MMOs. Its impossible to deny that's been the traditional goal of MMOs. When you aren't playing the game to develop your character but instead paying RL money, what are you doing? Find a phrase your comfortable with since calling it what it is seems to offend those doing it.
I gotta say at least there is some great entertainment watching the ridiculous conjecture, the downplaying, and the denial. Multiple people saying 200 charge instant heal items are no big deal ftw. Seriously if you guys want to pay to have an edge just say it already. If you want to pay to "win" faster than someone just playing say it. Be honest about it ffs.
You can take real world money and convert it into money to buy off the auction house. people that dont will not be able to afford items off the AH because prices will be inflated. Same reason noone likes gold sellers in wow.
Winning in an mmo is about accomishments achieved through time and effort. im all for cash shops that sell cosmetic itemz, but not items that give you an ingame advantage
Zen Store doesn't sell armor, doesn't sell weapons. you talked about the AH and using Zen to buy from there. that is not the same as Cryptic putting gear on the AH.
From the AH players have to get the gear to post. Whereas the Store items are added by Cryptic/PW. Also note that AD has a limited supply. We can gain 24k AD per day via refining. (founders pack has AD i know. that's an exception for now.)
I'll agree with you that in 4-6 months a new person with Zen can purchase a full set of Lv60 gear.
Ability Scores || All Attribute Roll Combinations || My Cleric Stream \o/
Who cares? An enemy running away isn't a threat. Kill his buddy instead. If he wants to kill you, he's got to get off the horse.
The game is not pay-to-win, no matter how you spin it.
The store is not selling any weapons or armor, so all the gear is coming from in-game drops. It comes from other players. Yes, you can buy Astral Diamonds and then use them to buy an item from another player. Just like in WoW you can use gold to buy items from other players (including BoPs, because raid guilds sell spots in their raids), and whether or not you like it, plenty of people in WoW do buy gold. Blizzard has been tolerating it for years. It's what happens in every game, and here you can actually do it safely without risking to get hacked like in WoW.
Consider, also, that this means that if you never spend any money on the game, and you are a good player, you can actually make Astral Diamonds and Zen by selling your loot drops! You will likely still have better gear because presumably you will use the best stuff for yourself and just sell spares or things you don't need. This is about as far from being pay-to-win as it can be. Pay-to-win would be if you buy weapons in the cash store that don't drop in the game. This is not the case in Neverwinter.
Its like letting a player who pays have the best weapon at level 20, while non payers have to wait until level 60. Or you can pay to have a magic item that gives you a huge out of combat speed boost from level 20 that is normally only available at level 60. You get the picture?
Luckily pvp isn't a big focus of the game and I don't see any p2w elements for pve. Also, to me at least, the option to pay for faster leveling and such is quite welcome.
as asians will be less proximety concered, they will also be more long to orientated (generally, maybe not thailand)
the north american market is short term oriented
and this inspires/adapts/effects the people(buyers), we want to be the best right away and show it, leaving asians more humble in said sense and aspiring to greatest through effort rather than being "upset -> buying everything and being "LOL You Noobs": to show superiority over others"
this fact will affect a of people group initially, people that also want to be that best an assert it but don't want to waste money, and i believe(hypothesis.. more assumptions with just this second of thought) it'll ripple through the culture of the player base and upset more and more not naturally uninclined to aspire in such an ( envious || benevolent ) way ( don't know how else to classify these emotions ) to feel the same way to the situation as in under appreciation/lack of accomplisment
and this leaves us ( north america ), scared of such an occurance.
An item that gives you double out of combat run speed that can only be obtained by purchasing through the cash shop is indeed both a huge advantage in pvp and a p2w element in the game. You obviously have little experience or interest in pvp if all you equate run speed to is "escape".
You can train mounts to have the same speed as the already-trained mounts you can get from the cash store. The means to do the training are available by just playing the game. Yes, there is a period of time where the faster mounts offer an advantage, until the mounts of the free players have caught up.
However, you do not win a domination map simply by being first at the nodes. You win it by managing to hold the nodes long enough and that is determined by skill and teamwork. Having a healer on your team, and fewer GWFs, is likely to have a larger impact. It is a valid point, but we probably weigh the impact on actual PvP matches differently.
They said the same about Planetside 2 except for the fact that the grinding required to obtain a weapon through in-game means was insane, which very much..."encouraged" people to just fork over the real cash and unlock it via the cash shop.
So please don't use such arguments when the developers of games with a cash shop make **** sure their players are motivated enough to actually give them money rather than working for it in the game.
You may have slightly missed my point: it is impossible to train a mount to rank 3 before level 60. If it were possible but just took time then it would be mainly a non issue.
However, I've probably harped on about this enough, really its only a fairly small element in the overall scheme of things, and it won't stop me from playing anyway. Mounts are almost a compulsory buy at some point if you like alts (as I do) and the luxury of being able to buy an account wide fast mount is something I actually rather like.
Me- hey guys I need to go catch a bus to the airport.
Hero of the North buyers- oh, you can't take a bus to the airport. You can take a bus or a train to the airport. Can't you see how that's totally not taking a bus to the airport?
Its free to take a bus or train now? Hey anything that "proves" you can't pay to gain an edge in this game right? Having a rare weapon at 60 and going into PVP vs others who don't isn't an advantage. You can earn that weapon in time for free... Instant click full heals, not a big deal...
What is true is that people who spend money on the game do get things faster. If you opt for playing for free, it takes you longer. That is how the model works. You can spend some money, as you would with other games too, if you want. It is a choice you make. And Neverwinter gives you more choice than other games, because they do not let you play for free at all.
This entire topic is highly subjective and speculative and there is absolutely no definitive answer without seeing how things are in launch for months down the road.
And if you think zerg-rushing nodes is effective strategy, your PvP experience is obviously from low levels in old games, with groups of random bads.
Where do you deduce that I think "zerg-rushing nodes is effective strategy" from my post? If you cannot see how a huge boost in out of combat movement speed is an enormous benefit in a capture the node type pvp game outside of "escape" and "zerg the node" you obviously have no clue about pvp, as I said previously.
An advantage that disappears at high level, which is where 99% of PvP is going to happen, and 100% of PvP that anybody cares about.
And an advantage that at low levels is barely existent, because it does nothing to help you HOLD those nodes; if you run around capping nodes by yourself, you'll just lose them five seconds later when the slowpokes show up.
This will dominate PvP for a week, and then nobody will care anymore.