dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
First, you are anti raiding. And restated that in your last post.
Second, I said nothing about "waste your time" areas. The entire game is a time waster just like any other recreational activity. You missed the point there.
Third, I said BEST GEAR soloable, again you missed the point or tried to fit it to your own agenda.
Fourth, you don't see how looking for more people is an extra step?
Fifth, Odd how you support full guild PVP but not full guild PVE. As with individuals, the more things you give a guild to do the better IMO. Crafting and roleplay guilds? Ok now I think I'm just being trolled ).
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
First, you are anti raiding. And restated that in your last post.
Second, I said nothing about "waste your time" areas. The entire game is a time waster just like any other recreational activity. You missed the point there.
Third, I said BEST GEAR soloable, again you missed the point or tried to fit it to your own agenda.
Fourth, you don't see how looking for more people is an extra step?
Fifth, Odd how you support full guild PVP but not full guild PVE. As with individuals, the more things you give a guild to do the better IMO. Crafting and roleplay guilds? Ok now I think I'm just being trolled ).
Is English your first language? The reason I ask is:
First - Saying you do not PREFER Raiding, does not mean you are Anti-Raiding. Heck, I even gave examples of where I see them being a viable and necessary part of the game. I prefer not to play a Tank, but that does not make me an Anti-Tank person. Understand the nuance?
Second - Yes, you did say something about "Wasting your time." from your original post "Variety is what keeps games from getting boring. Lots of ways to waste your time is what keeps WOW up there, like it or not."
Third - I have no where made any claim of Soloing getting better treasure. You are the one, who again, made the claim "If not do you also support being able to solo acquire the best gear?" I thought I answered pretty clearly that I am against Soloing in general, and definately against soloing getting the best gear. However, I believe that Raids and 5 player Adventures should get comperable gear. Neither is better or worst than the other.
Fourth - In my experience, getting 5 people together for an adventure is an extra step. Especially after the initial rush, when everyone is 30+ level, and you are coming in with a newbie character. Even more so, when those 5 characters would have a viable reason to get together to explore the ruins, besides "We were sitting around the bar and decided to group together.) This is one aspect where I can see Guilds being very significant. Especially in Roleplaying Guilds... which brings me to:
Fifth - No, I am not Trolling. I can see where Guilds exist, so that like minded players, who have similar schedules, can form a guild, and adventure as a group on a regular basis, advancing together as they do. Sort of like the old PnP groups I had, when only a few of us were lucky enough to have a steady game every week with a DM. That to me is, by definition a Roleplaying Guild.
Psyb3rTr011
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I appreciate that you can vote for inclusion of something you don't personally plan to do. Shows maturity. But you are in the "anti" category as far as raiding since you are not "pro". No reason to take offense over it.
Yes I did say waste your time. BUT I didn't say, "here is an area to waste your time" you said that for some reason.
Why are you against soloing getting the best gear? Do you feel you deserve more for taking the extra step to form a group?
If guilds exist simply for providing a reliable group, are you saying guilds should have 5-6 members? I'd suggest that a game that relies on RP guilds, crafting guilds, and 5 player guilds isn't going to be around for long.
I'm a PnP player also. But MMOs have to be different. And I firmly believe the more they embrace that difference they better off they are. There is a lot of concern expressed in this thread about larger restricting your chance to be "heroic" or "special". I'm throwing out that the opposite is true. The biggest stars are in Hollywood, the biggest politicians in DC, etc. In MMO's the bigger the enterprise the bigger the hero, just like everywhere else.
So many baddies on this post not wanting raids and having no clue how a MMO works. Pretty obvious what type of players those people are. There is no such thing as "challenging" 5 men dungeons. If all the game had are "challenging" 5 men dungeons then anyone with a working brain can beat everything this game has to offer as soon as they hit max level. These are the same people who want to be able to get the best gear in solo quest and/or 5 men dungeons.
This is what's going to happen. There's going to be raids where the best gear drops and these people are going to go to the forums and cry about it.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
There is no such thing as "challenging" 5 men dungeons. If all the game had are "challenging" 5 men dungeons then anyone with a working brain can beat everything this game has to offer as soon as they hit max level. These are the same people who want to be able to get the best gear in solo quest and/or 5 men dungeons.
You obviously have not played dungeons designed to be challenging for 5 man teams then. I have played many that were done in other games (NWN & NWN2 come to mind), to know that you are wrong. Not to mention 30+ years of Table top PnP games.
Also, I have seen NO ONEsuggesting only the best gear be gotten in SOLO Dungeons (Adventures), nor for that matter in 5 Character Dungeons (Adventures) either. What I have seen though, is those calling for only the best to be in RAIDS, and other people asking for RAIDS rewards to be comperable to those gotten in 5 character Dungeons (Adventures).
In otherwords, inclusive to BOTH types of players.
Psyb3rTr011
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
I appreciate that you can vote for inclusion of something you don't personally plan to do. Shows maturity. But you are in the "anti" category as far as raiding since you are not "pro". No reason to take offense over it.
Yes I did say waste your time. BUT I didn't say, "here is an area to waste your time" you said that for some reason.
Why are you against soloing getting the best gear? Do you feel you deserve more for taking the extra step to form a group?
If guilds exist simply for providing a reliable group, are you saying guilds should have 5-6 members? I'd suggest that a game that relies on RP guilds, crafting guilds, and 5 player guilds isn't going to be around for long.
I'm a PnP player also. But MMOs have to be different. And I firmly believe the more they embrace that difference they better off they are. There is a lot of concern expressed in this thread about larger restricting your chance to be "heroic" or "special". I'm throwing out that the opposite is true. The biggest stars are in Hollywood, the biggest politicians in DC, etc. In MMO's the bigger the enterprise the bigger the hero, just like everywhere else.
Sorry, but we are going to have to disagree. Someone who is not pro-, is not necessarily anti. There are numerous levels between the two extremes. By your logic, someone who is not Pro-Guns is anti-Guns. Someone who is not pro-abortion, is anti-abortion. Someone who is not Pro-Obama, is Anti-Obama, etc....... Most people are far more nuanced than that. I know I am on all three of the above topics.
So, your logic then, is that RAIDS are wastes of time? Since you put them and how WoW survives in the same sentence? Glad you are coming around!
No, I am not saying that about Guilds. Again, you are putting words into my mouth I did not say. In fact, I explicitly mentioned Guilds being perfect for PvP style play, and even PvE in the form of RAIDS. I just don't want RAIDS giving better loot than comperable 5 Character Adventures. Is that concept too hard to understand?
The Biggest Stars may be in Hollywood (Though Bollywood fans might disagree!) But they generally are SOLOists. I have yet to see a movie with every Hollywood Star in it. (Though a couple have had casts of 5 or 6 heavy weights in them.)
The concern is that you would be FORCED to participate in RAIDS to get the Best Gear. I am not calling for RAIDS to get less. Only that you can get equal for either RAIDS or typical Dungeon Crawls.
Psyb3rTr011
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
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fptackleMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 9Arc User
So many baddies on this post not wanting raids and having no clue how a MMO works. Pretty obvious what type of players those people are. There is no such thing as "challenging" 5 men dungeons. If all the game had are "challenging" 5 men dungeons then anyone with a working brain can beat everything this game has to offer as soon as they hit max level. These are the same people who want to be able to get the best gear in solo quest and/or 5 men dungeons.
This is what's going to happen. There's going to be raids where the best gear drops and these people are going to go to the forums and cry about it.
That's silly, you're going to argue that they can make 10 man, "hard", progression content, but they couldn't do so with 5 mans? What's the logic there?
This is what's going to happen. There's going to be raids where the best gear drops and these people are going to go to the forums and cry about it.
Nah, I'll just get bored and quit, like I always have before.
To be clear, I personally don't like raids. However, I have nothing against those who do (honestly). What I have a problem with is the elitism that the raiders use to justify them getting the best gear and the other players becoming second class citizens.
Assuming a 20 man raid: If a raider can join a group, do on average 5% of the work, and get the best gear. Why can't a person in a 5 man group, doing 20% of the work, get the same gear?
Now, that's an overly simplistic argument. We all know that in both instances (but more so in raids), certain players shoulder more work than the rest, though there's less variance in the five mans. But it's just to make a point. Why, when I join a five man (usually as tank) and my contribution to success is more, am I rewarded less (historically in MMOs)?
You obviously have not played dungeons designed to be challenging for 5 man teams then. I have played many that were done in other games (NWN & NWN2 come to mind), to know that you are wrong.
You're obviously a baddie if think any 5 men dungeon is/can be challenging. I can see why you're against raiding having the best loot though. Those type of people are the ones who don't get a raid invite because they can only press 2 buttons while staring at one spot on their screen and not realizing that they're standing on a pool of poison.
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fptackleMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 9Arc User
Quick MMO history lesson - The word "raid" in an mmo denotes content requiring two or more groups of players working together. This started in EverQuest when the devs implemented the sleeper and someone got it in their head to start throwing people at this thing until it died (a couple of hundred players) as the developers had stated previously that the mob was unkillable. Incidentally the mob didn't drop anything when it was finally killed many hours after the fight began, hundreds of bodies on the ground and many levels lost (yeah those were the days of real death penalties), with no reward other than the accomplishment itself. The outcry from the community was so loud about this epic fight that they accomplished that had no reward that the developers were forced to rethink their play model and raid content was born (72man raids), along with random raid loot/rewards.
I didn't even think the Sleeper was in the game until the third expansion? Weren't there Lord Nagafen/Lady Vox (both dragons) raids prior to The Sleeper? Further, I didn't think the Sleeper was even killed until Planes of Power (4th or 5th expansion) or later? Not that it really matters, but just asking.
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That's silly, you're going to argue that they can make 10 man, "hard", progression content, but they couldn't do so with 5 mans? What's the logic there?
Nah, I'll just get bored and quit, like I always have before.
To be clear, I personally don't like raids. However, I have nothing against those who do (honestly). What I have a problem with is the elitism that the raiders use to justify them getting the best gear and the other players becoming second class citizens.
Assuming a 20 man raid: If a raider can join a group, do on average 5% of the work, and get the best gear. Why can't a person in a 5 man group, doing 20% of the work, get the same gear?
Now, that's an overly simplistic argument. We all know that in both instances (but more so in raids), certain players shoulder more work than the rest, though there's less variance in the five mans. But it's just to make a point. Why, when I join a five man (usually as tank) and my contribution to success is more, am I rewarded less (historically in MMOs)?
Just my thoughts.
If its Elitism to want MMO's to embrace the M's then I'm 100% elitist. By your argument 1 player doing 100% of the work should get same reward. Why should I join with others and share the reward at all? Why should people get more than me as a soloist just because they have more players? See how silly the your "points" get?
And then admitting you'll just quit, why should devs cater a game to you so you can just quit it? How does that help their game succeed?
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
You're obviously a baddie if think any 5 men dungeon is/can be challenging. I can see why you're against raiding having the best loot though. Those type of people are the ones who don't get a raid invite because they can only press 2 buttons while staring at one spot on their screen and not realizing that they're standing on a pool of poison.
Nice personal attack.
Guess you have nothing valid to further add to the discussion.
Psyb3rTr011
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
If its Elitism to want MMO's to embrace the M's then I'm 100% elitist. By your argument 1 player doing 100% of the work should get same reward. Why should I join with others and share the reward at all? Why should people get more than me as a soloist just because they have more players? See how silly the your "points" get?
And then admitting you'll just quit, why should devs cater a game to you so you can just quit it? How does that help their game succeed?
Which M are you referring too?
Massively? As in having hundred of players populating the world, and which you can interact with on various occasions, including, but not limited to PvP encounters, PvE encounters, and Role Playing Encounters?
Or Multiplayer? Which, last I knew, 5 players per group is a Multiplayer experience, versus the Solo player games.
I am confused, becasue BOTH styles of play (Large Party [ie Raid] and Small Party [ie 5 character groups]), are in effect MMO styles. So arguing for one to be more rewarding than the other is in effect elitism.
It is those of us asking for no favoritism that are no being elitist.
Psyb3rTr011
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Massively? As in having hundred of players populating the world, and which you can interact with on various occasions, including, but not limited to PvP encounters, PvE encounters, and Role Playing Encounters?
Or Multiplayer? Which, last I knew, 5 players per group is a Multiplayer experience, versus the Solo player games.
I am confused, becasue BOTH styles of play (Large Party [ie Raid] and Small Party [ie 5 character groups]), are in effect MMO styles. So arguing for one to be more rewarding than the other is in effect elitism.
It is those of us asking for no favoritism that are no being elitist.
Dude why do you hate soloists or people who just want to duo? Why do you feel entitled to better gear based on your playstyle? Dodging direct questions and twisting what others say can't cloud the fact that you want the line drawn to fit EXACTLY your play habits. Why so elitist?
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kaiserschmarrnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 390
edited April 2013
Keep it small at 5 players. I never understood why people like the huge zerg-fests. It always robbed me of the immersion when my character needs 2 dozen buddies to take on a boss, because he is too weak to get it done on his own.
I don't recall any stories about Conan and his 24 friends taking on Thoth-Amon. Or Siegfried needing a full raid group to take on Fafnir. Or Gandalf fighting the Balrog together with two dozen other heroes.
Especially in the D&D setting adventures are always about small parties of high-powered heroes. Sure there are epic battles between armies once in a while, but those consist for the most part of your average soldiers. The really epic stuff against dragons, lichs, demonlords and other archvillains is always on a small and personal level in D&D.
The more guys you need, the weaker your character feels. The weaker your character feels, the more atmosphere you take out of the game. When I play an mmo then I want to play as a hero, or as part of a small group of paragons and not as man-at-arms #16 who cannot get things done on his own.
If you like large scale raids, there are plenty of other games to cater to your needs. But D&D is not that game.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
Dude why do you hate soloists or people who just want to duo? Why do you feel entitled to better gear based on your playstyle? Dodging direct questions and twisting what others say can't cloud the fact that you want the line drawn to fit EXACTLY your play habits. Why so elitist?
I don't.... You are the one who is dodging the question and twisting what others say here, no me! Show me where I ever made the comment that Small Groups should get better treasure than RAIDS, and thus BETTER play gear based on my style! I was explicit, they should get COMPERABLE treasure! You are the one claiming RAIDS should get better!
Define which M you are talking about and how either Small Group is neither.
As for soloists and Duo's? I do not hate them. Again, putting words into my mouth. In NWN and NW2 Persistent Worlds, I was often force to Solo, due to lack of other players online of a comperable level. Honestly, if a person can solo or duo a dungeon, then it is too easy, and likely several levels below them in power. (Which was often the case for me in those Persistent Worlds) So they should get whatever the several level lower treasure the place provides.
Reading through this thread, you are the one who is the elitist. You are the one who advocates one style of play (RAIDS) getting the best treasure., not I.
I suspect the "76%" is due to their being three choices, and many who would have chosen 5 player groups only versus 12+ Raids, to be accomodating to those who like raids.
A better poll question, to accurately determine the type of players would have been:
1) Only 5 Character Party
2) Only Raids
When you offer an option that allows for small raids, and party's, the majority are going to choose both. Just a fact of the game, even though the majority may not actually prefer the raids.
Your choices don't even make sense. It seems as though you are trying to give your own explaination as to the 76% proof that the majority want larger group content just because you don't. That is silly. Facts are facts, no matter how you personally interpret them.
I don't know what happened to make you hate raiding. But your suggesting a poll where people have the choice to ONLY raid or ONLY do 5 mans to try and prove a point, seems like your grasping. Variety is what keeps games from getting boring. Lots of ways to waste your time is what keeps WOW up there, like it or not.
This thread is a great example of how vocal minorities get games changed for the worse. About half the posts are anti raid. But the poll shows less than 24% against raids. Without the poll devs taking input might reach the wrong conclusion.
A lot of the anti raid sentiment seems to be based around gear. Shouldn't doing something that requires taking extra steps get your extra reward? If not do you also support being able to solo acquire the best gear? So if raiders are being tagged as no life elitists can't anti-raiders be termed as jealous people who resent others getting something they didn't? Which doesn't seem like a good reason to exclude an activity that so many enjoy.
There needs to be something that gives guilds a reason to exist and have size. There needs to be something that encourages social activity. If this game doesn't have it long term success isn't likely.
Exactly, grasping is a perfect word for what he's doing. lol And I wouldn't say half of the actual posts are anti raid, that is not what it looks like to me at all. I'll have to go back and re-read the posts and count, not the posts, but the people who are actually for raids vs. against them. My suspicion is that most are for, as shown by the poll.
Personally, I think a smaller party better reflects the flavor of a D&D based game. As a DM, running larger groups gets hectic the more voices you have; which is a perfect reflection of 10, 15, 20 or more player groups. I think it would capture the essence of the base game itself to keep things small. This means, more people will be able to experience the content, it will be easier to form PUGs, and it would truly reflect the skill of the smaller group's ability to crush through harder content.
I have nothing against larger groups; I've ran them as big as 72 (granted, it was a headache and a half, but it happened) and as of recently, I've run at 10-man primarily. But, personally, I enjoy the idea of being able to do a dungeon crawl with a small party, limiting resources and access of abilities, relying on coordination that goes beyond that of what a larger group might be able to do.
Wow, you are reading alot into my post that is not there...
First, I am not ANTI RAIDING! I personally do not prefer that style of game, except on very rare occasions, and with a good In Character and In Plot reason. (For instance, several groups attacking a large enemy encampment from several angles, to gather/destroy some key item for plot advancement). I am an old school PnP gamer, and prefer small teams exploring fascinating and dangerous places for the majority of content.
Second, I have no problem with "Waste your Time" areas, but they should be large hunting areas, with little risk/reward. Think Kobold Hills, Goblin Caves, Orc Plains, Lizardman Swamps, Graveyards, etc
Third, I do not think Adventures should be soloable at all. If I want that, I can get any of the Single Player games out there to play for that. The Elder Scrolls Series being a perfect choice.
Fourth, I do not see how Raids are a extra step that would reward better than a well designed dungeon for 5 players that requires teamwork and attention to detail to succeed. Comperable rewards. No problem, but not better.
Fifth, Guild activity. I can think of many reasons for Guilds to exist besides Raiding only. Guild versus Guild PvP being one. Crafting Guilds. Roleplaying Guilds. Unfortunately, my experience with Guilds after almost two decades of CRPG MMO's, is that they appear and disappear too often, and few have any staying power for more than a couple months. The Original members max out and run out of challenging things to do, and the newbies are unable to get enough people in the Guild together to adventure with. I dislike having characters I have RP'd with for months suddenly disappear. But that is the life of MMO's, and modern gamers. This is boring, move on...
My main hope is that the Forge will allow enough player made content to be available, that players will stay around far longer, as they run through each adventure.
I'm really not being rude, but it's clear by everything you type that you may not understand why most people even play MMORPG's or participate in a guild in the first place. After reading everything in your posts, I am just left scratching my head. But I still value your opinion.
So many baddies on this post not wanting raids and having no clue how a MMO works. Pretty obvious what type of players those people are. There is no such thing as "challenging" 5 men dungeons. If all the game had are "challenging" 5 men dungeons then anyone with a working brain can beat everything this game has to offer as soon as they hit max level. These are the same people who want to be able to get the best gear in solo quest and/or 5 men dungeons.
This is what's going to happen. There's going to be raids where the best gear drops and these people are going to go to the forums and cry about it.
Pretty much this. But I don't agree that the best loot should only be obtainable by raiding. I know it's hard for us raiders (and people who enjoy larger group content) to imagine a solo activity or small group activity being just as challenging as a large group one, but I believe there is a correct way of designing this so that it works. Hopefully they find it.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
Your choices don't even make sense. Stop trying to give your own silly explanation as to the 76% proof that the majority want larger group content just because you don't. You're just making yourself sound silly. Facts are facts, no matter how you personally interpret them.
Really? OK. Answer me this? What percentage of those 8-10 player content, are for gamers like myself (And several others who have posted in this thread and others) who PREFER traditional 5-6 Character Parties in traditional D&D styled Adventures, but see the need for larger RAIDs for plot advancement and change of pace? (Also to accomodate those who prefer the RAID style of play)
My argument is that that number is much larger, when combined with the 5 Player only group, than the other way. (Not to count for the people who think Adventuring Parties should be up to 6 characters like in the PnP versions, and were not given this option.)
But I get it. You are a RAID fan. Cool. Whatever trips your trigger.
Keep it small at 5 players. I never understood why people like the huge zerg-fests. It always robbed me of the immersion when my character needs 2 dozen buddies to take on a boss, because he is too weak to get it done on his own.
I don't recall any stories about Conan and his 24 friends taking on Thoth-Amon. Or Siegfried needing a full raid group to take on Fafnir. Or Gandalf fighting the Balrog together with two dozen other heroes.
Especially in the D&D setting adventures are always about small parties of high-powered heroes. Sure there are epic battles between armies once in a while, but those consist for the most part of your average soldiers. The really epic stuff against dragons, lichs, demonlords and other archvillains is always on a small and personal level in D&D.
The more guys you need, the weaker your character feels. The weaker your character feels, the more atmosphere you take out of the game. When I play an mmo then I want to play as a hero, or as part of a small group of paragons and not as man-at-arms #16 who cannot get things done on his own.
If you like large scale raids, there are plenty of other games to cater to your needs. But D&D is not that game.
I could ask you the same thing. Why ONLY have 5 man dungeons when 76% of all players want content for more? Where is the logic? If you can have both play styles and both types of content with most of the best rewards available via progression in each type of content, why not? A game needs to always cater to multiple play styles.
Really? OK. Answer me this? What percentage of those 8-10 player content, are for gamers like myself (And several others who have posted in this thread and others) who PREFER traditional 5-6 Character Parties in traditional D&D styled Adventures, but see the need for larger RAIDs for plot advancement and change of pace? (Also to accomodate those who prefer the RAID style of play)
My argument is that that number is much larger, when combined with the 5 Player only group, than the other way. (Not to count for the people who think Adventuring Parties should be up to 6 characters like in the PnP versions, and were not given this option.)
But I get it. You are a RAID fan. Cool. Whatever trips your trigger.
Ok, I value your opinion. But it's not that I'm just a raid fan, I'm here to prove that MOST people enjoy larger group content of at least 8-10 players and with the poll, I have already done that.
So cool, your not a raid fan, then when raids are implemented (because at this point they are inevitable) you can either choose to progress via a different route or you can get mad and go play another game. Both paths are viable.
Come on guys, stop arguing about it, it's pointless. You're not going to change each other's minds, it's just a difference of opinion. But realize this for Christ sake: Just because a game implements raids (or larger group content, whatever you want to call them), don't think it sucks just because you don't like that type of play style. Because in the end, that's all it comes down to. The people who don't like it don't want it, blah blah. Don't get mad that it exists just because you don't like it. That is NOT sign of maturity. That's like racism, you get mad that black people exists because you don't like blacks. Sound familiar? (not saying you're racists).
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
Just stop posting, seriously, I'm really not being rude either, but it's clear by everything you type that you do not understand why most people even play MMORPG's or participate in a guild in the first place. After reading everything in your posts, I am just left scratching my head.
ROFLMAO... I have been playing MMORPG's since the mid 90's. (Started with Ultima Online) It wasn't until WoW, that huge Raids became the Fantasy MMORPG norm. Sure Guild vs Guild Raids were common in UO and other early games, but it was strictly PvP. I continue to play on NWN Persistent Worlds, which are MMORPG's for the most part without Raids.
I should ask you the same? Just stop posting, seriously, I'm really not being rude either, but it's clear by everything you type that you do not understand why most people even play D&D based Fantasy Role Playing Games.
Psyb3rTr011
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
Ok, I value your opinion. But it's not that I'm just a raid fan, I'm here to prove that MOST people enjoy larger group content of at least 8-10 players and with the poll, I have already done that.
So cool, your not a raid fan, then when raids are implemented (because at this point they are inevitable) you can either choose to progress via a different route or you can get mad and go play another game. Both paths are viable.
Come on guys, stop arguing about it, it's pointless. You're not going to change each other's minds, it's just a difference of opinion. But realize this for Christ sake: Just because a game implements raids (or larger group content, whatever you want to call them), don't think it sucks just because you don't like that type of play style. Because in the end, that's all it comes down to. The people who don't like it don't want it, blah blah. Don't get mad that it exists just because you don't like it. That is NOT sign of maturity. That's like racism, you get mad that black people exists because you don't like blacks. Sound familiar? (not saying you're racists).
I have NEVER claimed RAIDS suck. I am just holding my ground, that you should not HAVE TO RAID to get the best treasure, and neither should the Traditional 5 character party adventures give it! They should give it equally, based on character level and event difficulty.
Raids are without a doubt going to happen, and I'm sure most people will participate in them. However, attacking every person who voices their opinions on the subject...it's not very polite, valdorax. You open up a forum where people come to express their feelings on the topic at hand, but you take every opportunity to eviscerate them? Doesn't seem right. I get where you're coming from, and I think you have the best of intentions, but perhaps ease back a bit on the bullhorn.
Sure. Some of the folks don't get it. Some of the people posting want small because it does reflect the game which this is based on. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with 8-10 man content either. Hell, that's where most of my enjoyment in WoW comes from! Simply speaking, if you don't put cheese at the end of the maze there's no reason for the mouse to get to the end. Raids are that cheese, and they make the cheese worth the maze.
As I said, raids are undoubtedly going to happen. How these raids are formatted is the question at hand. I ask you this; if it is limited to five people, in a sense becoming like challenge mode dungeons, would you do them anyway? If they pushed a venue that was based on smaller groups, but expansive and challenging dungeons with exceptional rewards, would it be something you'd do?
Also, the term "MMO" isn't just about raiding; it's group activities like questing and rping. It's player versus player matches a plenty, so we're not sitting in queues forever and a day. It's running dungeons, running foundry dungeons to see what the talented few have created for us. There are so many things that define MMO, especially this game, beyond just raids. Raids are great, I love them because of what they represent; prestige for the few who push that content and the satisfaction of seeing your work herald a victory and reward. But they're not just for the elite, they should be experienced by everyone.
I have NEVER claimed RAIDS suck. I am just holding my ground, that you should not HAVE TO RAID to get the best treasure, and neither should the Traditional 5 character party adventures give it! They should give it equally, based on character level and event difficulty.
Then I agree with you.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
This is one of my pet peeves about WoW and other games like it. (Besides WoW's cartoony character appearances.) If you don't Raid, you do not get the best equipment.
Raids are without a doubt going to happen, and I'm sure most people will participate in them. However, attacking every person who voices their opinions on the subject...it's not very polite, valdorax. You open up a forum where people come to express their feelings on the topic at hand, but you take every opportunity to eviscerate them? Doesn't seem right. I get where you're coming from, and I think you have the best of intentions, but perhaps ease back a bit on the bullhorn.
Sure. Some of the folks don't get it. Some of the people posting want small because it does reflect the game which this is based on. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with 8-10 man content either. Hell, that's where most of my enjoyment in WoW comes from! Simply speaking, if you don't put cheese at the end of the maze there's no reason for the mouse to get to the end. Raids are that cheese, and they make the cheese worth the maze.
As I said, raids are undoubtedly going to happen. How these raids are formatted is the question at hand. I ask you this; if it is limited to five people, in a sense becoming like challenge mode dungeons, would you do them anyway? If they pushed a venue that was based on smaller groups, but expansive and challenging dungeons with exceptional rewards, would it be something you'd do?
Also, the term "MMO" isn't just about raiding; it's group activities like questing and rping. It's player versus player matches a plenty, so we're not sitting in queues forever and a day. It's running dungeons, running foundry dungeons to see what the talented few have created for us. There are so many things that define MMO, especially this game, beyond just raids. Raids are great, I love them because of what they represent; prestige for the few who push that content and the satisfaction of seeing your work herald a victory and reward. But they're not just for the elite, they should be experienced by everyone.
I beg to differ! I did not personally attack anyone. Show me where I "attacked" someone and I will apologize for it even though my intentions were not to attack them.
If anyone feels "attacked" by anything I have said, I am sorry, that is not my intention. I even said I valued everyone's opinion.
I also made it clear that it was all in fun and that the purpose of this thread is to provide feedback and suggestions and for people to voice their opinions.
You can go back and read all my posts and see as much, and I have certainly not attacked anyone and have always been 100% polite. Besides, it is not my way to attack or troll in the forums and I have never seen any productivity in it. But I'm sorry you feel as though I was "attacking" when I have only been seeking constructive and productive conversation. But hey, I value your opinion.
I do feel somewhat offended that you have accused me of attacking though. But I shall move on and get over it as they say for sake of my fellow MMORPGers and unity! Let us shake hands!
This is one of my pet peeves about WoW and other games like it. (Besides WoW's cartoony character appearances.) If you don't Raid, you do not get the best equipment.
I 100% agree with you and I have always been a hard core raider. I am trying to be more open minded these days in regards to all play styles and I am 100% against elitism in any form, almost as much as I am against racism, Obama, terrorists, you get the picture.
Comments
Second, I said nothing about "waste your time" areas. The entire game is a time waster just like any other recreational activity. You missed the point there.
Third, I said BEST GEAR soloable, again you missed the point or tried to fit it to your own agenda.
Fourth, you don't see how looking for more people is an extra step?
Fifth, Odd how you support full guild PVP but not full guild PVE. As with individuals, the more things you give a guild to do the better IMO. Crafting and roleplay guilds? Ok now I think I'm just being trolled ).
Is English your first language? The reason I ask is:
First - Saying you do not PREFER Raiding, does not mean you are Anti-Raiding. Heck, I even gave examples of where I see them being a viable and necessary part of the game. I prefer not to play a Tank, but that does not make me an Anti-Tank person. Understand the nuance?
Second - Yes, you did say something about "Wasting your time." from your original post "Variety is what keeps games from getting boring. Lots of ways to waste your time is what keeps WOW up there, like it or not."
Third - I have no where made any claim of Soloing getting better treasure. You are the one, who again, made the claim "If not do you also support being able to solo acquire the best gear?" I thought I answered pretty clearly that I am against Soloing in general, and definately against soloing getting the best gear. However, I believe that Raids and 5 player Adventures should get comperable gear. Neither is better or worst than the other.
Fourth - In my experience, getting 5 people together for an adventure is an extra step. Especially after the initial rush, when everyone is 30+ level, and you are coming in with a newbie character. Even more so, when those 5 characters would have a viable reason to get together to explore the ruins, besides "We were sitting around the bar and decided to group together.) This is one aspect where I can see Guilds being very significant. Especially in Roleplaying Guilds... which brings me to:
Fifth - No, I am not Trolling. I can see where Guilds exist, so that like minded players, who have similar schedules, can form a guild, and adventure as a group on a regular basis, advancing together as they do. Sort of like the old PnP groups I had, when only a few of us were lucky enough to have a steady game every week with a DM. That to me is, by definition a Roleplaying Guild.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
Yes I did say waste your time. BUT I didn't say, "here is an area to waste your time" you said that for some reason.
Why are you against soloing getting the best gear? Do you feel you deserve more for taking the extra step to form a group?
If guilds exist simply for providing a reliable group, are you saying guilds should have 5-6 members? I'd suggest that a game that relies on RP guilds, crafting guilds, and 5 player guilds isn't going to be around for long.
I'm a PnP player also. But MMOs have to be different. And I firmly believe the more they embrace that difference they better off they are. There is a lot of concern expressed in this thread about larger restricting your chance to be "heroic" or "special". I'm throwing out that the opposite is true. The biggest stars are in Hollywood, the biggest politicians in DC, etc. In MMO's the bigger the enterprise the bigger the hero, just like everywhere else.
This is what's going to happen. There's going to be raids where the best gear drops and these people are going to go to the forums and cry about it.
You obviously have not played dungeons designed to be challenging for 5 man teams then. I have played many that were done in other games (NWN & NWN2 come to mind), to know that you are wrong. Not to mention 30+ years of Table top PnP games.
Also, I have seen NO ONEsuggesting only the best gear be gotten in SOLO Dungeons (Adventures), nor for that matter in 5 Character Dungeons (Adventures) either. What I have seen though, is those calling for only the best to be in RAIDS, and other people asking for RAIDS rewards to be comperable to those gotten in 5 character Dungeons (Adventures).
In otherwords, inclusive to BOTH types of players.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
Sorry, but we are going to have to disagree. Someone who is not pro-, is not necessarily anti. There are numerous levels between the two extremes. By your logic, someone who is not Pro-Guns is anti-Guns. Someone who is not pro-abortion, is anti-abortion. Someone who is not Pro-Obama, is Anti-Obama, etc....... Most people are far more nuanced than that. I know I am on all three of the above topics.
So, your logic then, is that RAIDS are wastes of time? Since you put them and how WoW survives in the same sentence? Glad you are coming around!
No, I am not saying that about Guilds. Again, you are putting words into my mouth I did not say. In fact, I explicitly mentioned Guilds being perfect for PvP style play, and even PvE in the form of RAIDS. I just don't want RAIDS giving better loot than comperable 5 Character Adventures. Is that concept too hard to understand?
The Biggest Stars may be in Hollywood (Though Bollywood fans might disagree!) But they generally are SOLOists. I have yet to see a movie with every Hollywood Star in it. (Though a couple have had casts of 5 or 6 heavy weights in them.)
The concern is that you would be FORCED to participate in RAIDS to get the Best Gear. I am not calling for RAIDS to get less. Only that you can get equal for either RAIDS or typical Dungeon Crawls.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
That's silly, you're going to argue that they can make 10 man, "hard", progression content, but they couldn't do so with 5 mans? What's the logic there?
Nah, I'll just get bored and quit, like I always have before.
To be clear, I personally don't like raids. However, I have nothing against those who do (honestly). What I have a problem with is the elitism that the raiders use to justify them getting the best gear and the other players becoming second class citizens.
Assuming a 20 man raid: If a raider can join a group, do on average 5% of the work, and get the best gear. Why can't a person in a 5 man group, doing 20% of the work, get the same gear?
Now, that's an overly simplistic argument. We all know that in both instances (but more so in raids), certain players shoulder more work than the rest, though there's less variance in the five mans. But it's just to make a point. Why, when I join a five man (usually as tank) and my contribution to success is more, am I rewarded less (historically in MMOs)?
Just my thoughts.
You're obviously a baddie if think any 5 men dungeon is/can be challenging. I can see why you're against raiding having the best loot though. Those type of people are the ones who don't get a raid invite because they can only press 2 buttons while staring at one spot on their screen and not realizing that they're standing on a pool of poison.
If its Elitism to want MMO's to embrace the M's then I'm 100% elitist. By your argument 1 player doing 100% of the work should get same reward. Why should I join with others and share the reward at all? Why should people get more than me as a soloist just because they have more players? See how silly the your "points" get?
And then admitting you'll just quit, why should devs cater a game to you so you can just quit it? How does that help their game succeed?
Nice personal attack.
Guess you have nothing valid to further add to the discussion.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
Which M are you referring too?
Massively? As in having hundred of players populating the world, and which you can interact with on various occasions, including, but not limited to PvP encounters, PvE encounters, and Role Playing Encounters?
Or Multiplayer? Which, last I knew, 5 players per group is a Multiplayer experience, versus the Solo player games.
I am confused, becasue BOTH styles of play (Large Party [ie Raid] and Small Party [ie 5 character groups]), are in effect MMO styles. So arguing for one to be more rewarding than the other is in effect elitism.
It is those of us asking for no favoritism that are no being elitist.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
Dude why do you hate soloists or people who just want to duo? Why do you feel entitled to better gear based on your playstyle? Dodging direct questions and twisting what others say can't cloud the fact that you want the line drawn to fit EXACTLY your play habits. Why so elitist?
I don't recall any stories about Conan and his 24 friends taking on Thoth-Amon. Or Siegfried needing a full raid group to take on Fafnir. Or Gandalf fighting the Balrog together with two dozen other heroes.
Especially in the D&D setting adventures are always about small parties of high-powered heroes. Sure there are epic battles between armies once in a while, but those consist for the most part of your average soldiers. The really epic stuff against dragons, lichs, demonlords and other archvillains is always on a small and personal level in D&D.
The more guys you need, the weaker your character feels. The weaker your character feels, the more atmosphere you take out of the game. When I play an mmo then I want to play as a hero, or as part of a small group of paragons and not as man-at-arms #16 who cannot get things done on his own.
If you like large scale raids, there are plenty of other games to cater to your needs. But D&D is not that game.
I don't.... You are the one who is dodging the question and twisting what others say here, no me! Show me where I ever made the comment that Small Groups should get better treasure than RAIDS, and thus BETTER play gear based on my style! I was explicit, they should get COMPERABLE treasure! You are the one claiming RAIDS should get better!
Define which M you are talking about and how either Small Group is neither.
As for soloists and Duo's? I do not hate them. Again, putting words into my mouth. In NWN and NW2 Persistent Worlds, I was often force to Solo, due to lack of other players online of a comperable level. Honestly, if a person can solo or duo a dungeon, then it is too easy, and likely several levels below them in power. (Which was often the case for me in those Persistent Worlds) So they should get whatever the several level lower treasure the place provides.
Reading through this thread, you are the one who is the elitist. You are the one who advocates one style of play (RAIDS) getting the best treasure., not I.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
Your choices don't even make sense. It seems as though you are trying to give your own explaination as to the 76% proof that the majority want larger group content just because you don't. That is silly. Facts are facts, no matter how you personally interpret them.
Exactly, grasping is a perfect word for what he's doing. lol And I wouldn't say half of the actual posts are anti raid, that is not what it looks like to me at all. I'll have to go back and re-read the posts and count, not the posts, but the people who are actually for raids vs. against them. My suspicion is that most are for, as shown by the poll.
I have nothing against larger groups; I've ran them as big as 72 (granted, it was a headache and a half, but it happened) and as of recently, I've run at 10-man primarily. But, personally, I enjoy the idea of being able to do a dungeon crawl with a small party, limiting resources and access of abilities, relying on coordination that goes beyond that of what a larger group might be able to do.
Just my two cents. :-)
I'm really not being rude, but it's clear by everything you type that you may not understand why most people even play MMORPG's or participate in a guild in the first place. After reading everything in your posts, I am just left scratching my head. But I still value your opinion.
Pretty much this. But I don't agree that the best loot should only be obtainable by raiding. I know it's hard for us raiders (and people who enjoy larger group content) to imagine a solo activity or small group activity being just as challenging as a large group one, but I believe there is a correct way of designing this so that it works. Hopefully they find it.
Really? OK. Answer me this? What percentage of those 8-10 player content, are for gamers like myself (And several others who have posted in this thread and others) who PREFER traditional 5-6 Character Parties in traditional D&D styled Adventures, but see the need for larger RAIDs for plot advancement and change of pace? (Also to accomodate those who prefer the RAID style of play)
My argument is that that number is much larger, when combined with the 5 Player only group, than the other way. (Not to count for the people who think Adventuring Parties should be up to 6 characters like in the PnP versions, and were not given this option.)
But I get it. You are a RAID fan. Cool. Whatever trips your trigger.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
I could ask you the same thing. Why ONLY have 5 man dungeons when 76% of all players want content for more? Where is the logic? If you can have both play styles and both types of content with most of the best rewards available via progression in each type of content, why not? A game needs to always cater to multiple play styles.
Ok, I value your opinion. But it's not that I'm just a raid fan, I'm here to prove that MOST people enjoy larger group content of at least 8-10 players and with the poll, I have already done that.
So cool, your not a raid fan, then when raids are implemented (because at this point they are inevitable) you can either choose to progress via a different route or you can get mad and go play another game. Both paths are viable.
Come on guys, stop arguing about it, it's pointless. You're not going to change each other's minds, it's just a difference of opinion. But realize this for Christ sake: Just because a game implements raids (or larger group content, whatever you want to call them), don't think it sucks just because you don't like that type of play style. Because in the end, that's all it comes down to. The people who don't like it don't want it, blah blah. Don't get mad that it exists just because you don't like it. That is NOT sign of maturity. That's like racism, you get mad that black people exists because you don't like blacks. Sound familiar? (not saying you're racists).
ROFLMAO... I have been playing MMORPG's since the mid 90's. (Started with Ultima Online) It wasn't until WoW, that huge Raids became the Fantasy MMORPG norm. Sure Guild vs Guild Raids were common in UO and other early games, but it was strictly PvP. I continue to play on NWN Persistent Worlds, which are MMORPG's for the most part without Raids.
I should ask you the same? Just stop posting, seriously, I'm really not being rude either, but it's clear by everything you type that you do not understand why most people even play D&D based Fantasy Role Playing Games.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
I have NEVER claimed RAIDS suck. I am just holding my ground, that you should not HAVE TO RAID to get the best treasure, and neither should the Traditional 5 character party adventures give it! They should give it equally, based on character level and event difficulty.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
Sure. Some of the folks don't get it. Some of the people posting want small because it does reflect the game which this is based on. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with 8-10 man content either. Hell, that's where most of my enjoyment in WoW comes from! Simply speaking, if you don't put cheese at the end of the maze there's no reason for the mouse to get to the end. Raids are that cheese, and they make the cheese worth the maze.
As I said, raids are undoubtedly going to happen. How these raids are formatted is the question at hand. I ask you this; if it is limited to five people, in a sense becoming like challenge mode dungeons, would you do them anyway? If they pushed a venue that was based on smaller groups, but expansive and challenging dungeons with exceptional rewards, would it be something you'd do?
Also, the term "MMO" isn't just about raiding; it's group activities like questing and rping. It's player versus player matches a plenty, so we're not sitting in queues forever and a day. It's running dungeons, running foundry dungeons to see what the talented few have created for us. There are so many things that define MMO, especially this game, beyond just raids. Raids are great, I love them because of what they represent; prestige for the few who push that content and the satisfaction of seeing your work herald a victory and reward. But they're not just for the elite, they should be experienced by everyone.
Then I agree with you.
This is one of my pet peeves about WoW and other games like it. (Besides WoW's cartoony character appearances.) If you don't Raid, you do not get the best equipment.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
I beg to differ! I did not personally attack anyone. Show me where I "attacked" someone and I will apologize for it even though my intentions were not to attack them.
If anyone feels "attacked" by anything I have said, I am sorry, that is not my intention. I even said I valued everyone's opinion.
I also made it clear that it was all in fun and that the purpose of this thread is to provide feedback and suggestions and for people to voice their opinions.
You can go back and read all my posts and see as much, and I have certainly not attacked anyone and have always been 100% polite. Besides, it is not my way to attack or troll in the forums and I have never seen any productivity in it. But I'm sorry you feel as though I was "attacking" when I have only been seeking constructive and productive conversation. But hey, I value your opinion.
I do feel somewhat offended that you have accused me of attacking though.
I 100% agree with you and I have always been a hard core raider. I am trying to be more open minded these days in regards to all play styles and I am 100% against elitism in any form, almost as much as I am against racism, Obama, terrorists, you get the picture.