Originally Posted by psyb3rtr011However, please do not make participation in Raids mandatory for the best equipment. Many of us prefer the small 5 player party size that we became accustomed to in Tabletop games, or have real lives, and can at best, limit our time to a couple of hours a week.
Exacly, raids are fun but it shouldnt be the only place in the game to get the best gear.
No offense, but I am sick of this age old argument that people with "no lives" are the only people who seem to have time to raid. Yet, many other games in the past have been able to cater to the casual market with raid content suited to thier play time.
The amount of people who want 8-10 man small raid content in this thread out weighs those who don't.
Explain to me this, if getting the best gear can be obtained from 5 man groups, why even bother implementing raid content? Just stick to 5 man group content and watch the games population die by 80% with in 3 - 4 months when TESO is released.
One last thing, whats the difference between someone who plays for 10 hours a week and takes 8 months to obtain said gear versus someone who plays 40 hours a week and obtains said gear in 2 months? Nothing, they both gained the gear on the same playing feild.
dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
A single group isn't a raid. Personally I think the less massive and multiplayer MMO's get the less reason there is to play them vs a console game. Some people don't like the large scale action. That's fine, no one forces you to do it. Just sad game devs kill what was once the defining aspect of MMOs just because of a vocal few.
I've grown very tired of MMOs where end game consists of 5 man/Battleground farming and vanity item/title collection. And the lack of money I spend on them shows it. Put the M's back in MMOs please.
I think raids are needed for several reasons: to pace end game progression, to provide incentive to continue to play developed characters, to add a sense of accomplishment, to give guilds a reason for existence, to give existing guilds a reason to play this game, to allow larger groups of players to play together, to allow for challenging fights with mechanics that wouldn't necessarily be practical for a 5 man group, to create the expectation that the developers would continue to create content for the game and not just the players.
Very good post. Only thing I would add is there needs to be a risk/reward that encourages people to do the larger raids. If guilds have no reason to exist, and players shelf max level chars from boredom, that's not a game that lasts.
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rojorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 178Bounty Hunter
edited April 2013
5-10 player dungeons is plenty big enough. anything more is just inviting trouble.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
No offense, but I am sick of this age old argument that people with "no lives" are the only people who seem to have time to raid. Yet, many other games in the past have been able to cater to the casual market with raid content suited to thier play time.
The amount of people who want 8-10 man small raid content in this thread out weighs those who don't.
Explain to me this, if getting the best gear can be obtained from 5 man groups, why even bother implementing raid content? Just stick to 5 man group content and watch the games population die by 80% with in 3 - 4 months when TESO is released.
One last thing, whats the difference between someone who plays for 10 hours a week and takes 8 months to obtain said gear versus someone who plays 40 hours a week and obtains said gear in 2 months? Nothing, they both gained the gear on the same playing feild.
Your post comes across as offensive, even if you didn't mean it. :-D
I only put the no lives comments in there to address the numerous, College aged and younger, players that flood these games for hours every day, and get to max level with all the powerful stuff within days of release. I have encountered enough of these players in other games to know they exist. Did I hit a sore spot? I mean, I did not name names, and was speaking in very general terms. No idea why you took offense.
I have yet to see a game that does as you say, and caters to the casual gamer with raids suitable to my time (Neither Euro or US timezones, and a couple hours off of Japan and Aussie times due to work schedule). Especially so with my only genre, Swords and Sorcery. Not a fan of any other genre. I also find the cartoony graphics of some games (WoW) to be a turnoff in games too.
I voted for 8-10 man raids..... Even stated so in my original post. Even though I will rarely if ever likely be able to participate in any.
I would reply with a similar question regarding raids "Explain to me this, if getting the best gear can be obtained from raids only, why even bother implementing 5 man party content? Just stick to large raid content and watch the games population die by 80% with in 3 - 4 months when TESO is released." You hit my point precisely. I do not mind that Raids are allowed to accommodate those who prefer them. But I do not think they should garner anything special that regular 5 player adventures cannot.
I also do NOT think you should be able to do a dungeon or raid again and again. Once and done. Allow the player community and Developers to provide enough 5 character adventures and raids for character advancement, as well as experience farming areas with little risk/reward for those times when you are between adventures/raids.
What is the difference? After a very short time, the slower advancing (Casual Gamers) characters are going to have a harder and harder time finding comparable level characters to adventure with. Compounded when you happen to have playing times that are out of the norm for most gamers.
Psyb3rTr011
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
I also do NOT think you should be able to do a dungeon or raid again and again. Once and done. Allow the player community and Developers to provide enough 5 character adventures and raids for character advancement, as well as experience farming areas with little risk/reward for those times when you are between adventures/raids.
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This comment is totally unrealistic btw, you should be able to repeat any part of a game you wish, only being able to do it once or a certain amount of times is totally ridiculous and unnecessary. Games should be about CHOICE. The choice to do anything you want over again or even differently. Choice of playstyle for example... on that note, I do agree with you that high level gear should be obtainable by different methods, I said as much in my OP. This would oblige different types of gamers to play the same game because they all don't have to play the same way. There should also be the choice to level and progress your character in different ways, with different quests even. Currently the game is very linear, with a mostly pre-determined leveling quest path, more like a single person FPS or RPG. I don't agree with this because choice is one of the most important factors in an MMO, especially an MMORPG.
This entire argument is dumb because if the devs properly integrate choice into a game, people should be able to play how they want to, with everything in the game being obtainable by different means, including gear, level cap, xp, and so on and so forth. Expecting everyone to do the same thing, play the same way, or even level their characters the same way, is going to kill this game if they don't change it.
At two or three points on my way to lvl 30 this last beta, I had quest issues. Instead of being able to move on, we were forced to figure out the work arounds, posts two step by steps for other people, as well as help others (and myself) in the game to get through them, which took time, and it would have been nice if we could have simply chosen to drop the quest and just go onto another quest line had we so desired, especially since we had limited play time. But the way it is now, you are forced to complete certain quests to "unlock" the next "set" of quests for your character. Not a good idea to force someone to do anything in a game. Give people options. Customization and choice are two of the most fun aspects of MMORPG's IMO and they are fundamental to MMORPG's.
It's the same reason we need at least 8-10 man content. Because some people prefer larger groups for doing dungeons... and if those people want to do the raid dungeons over again with DIFFERENT people, why stop them?
Again, 5-6 man dungeons are not raids. They started using the word "raid" in MMORPGs to differentiate them from "dungeons" which were for 5 people. Some synonyms from the thesaurus are "incursion" or "invasion" and that sure sounds like more than 5 people to me. Also, why not add them? If the loot is attainable by other means and you are not forced to do them, what would anyone's reasoning be to not have at least 10 man content for a more epic feel... especially for the masses who really do enjoy the larger scale content? The answer really is, there is no reason not to add them. It would only succeed in making the game more appealing to certain types of players while leaving the other types alone. Right?
Quick MMO history lesson - The word "raid" in an mmo denotes content requiring two or more groups of players working together. This started in EverQuest when the devs implemented the sleeper and someone got it in their head to start throwing people at this thing until it died (a couple of hundred players) as the developers had stated previously that the mob was unkillable. Incidentally the mob didn't drop anything when it was finally killed many hours after the fight began, hundreds of bodies on the ground and many levels lost (yeah those were the days of real death penalties), with no reward other than the accomplishment itself. The outcry from the community was so loud about this epic fight that they accomplished that had no reward that the developers were forced to rethink their play model and raid content was born (72man raids), along with random raid loot/rewards.
A 5-6 man dungeon is not a raid, there you are right, and it's called group content. Raiding is nice, but there needs to be more with regard to character development. Otherwise the game becomes a gear-grind at max level and nothing more. There needs to be a character advanacement system in place for the characters to continue growing through continued repetative gameplay. Raiding is a nice start but it will only keep folks playing for so long after hitting level cap. 10-12man content isn't a bad idea, the raid size is managable and loot wouldn't be too difficult to obtain for everyone (try handing out 3 items that dropped from this raid boss we just killed with 72 people and 20 of them want one of the items).
If you can't be constructive in your criticism, go back to world-of-whiners.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
This comment is totally unrealistic btw, you should be able to repeat any part of a game you wish, only being able to do it once or a certain amount of times is totally ridiculous and unnecessary. Games should be about CHOICE. The choice to do anything you want over again or even differently. Choice of playstyle for example... on that note, I do agree with you that high level gear should be obtainable by different methods, I said as much in my OP. This would oblige different types of gamers to play the same game because they all don't have to play the same way. There should also be the choice to level and progress your character in different ways, with different quests even. Currently the game is very linear, with a mostly pre-determined leveling quest path, more like a single person FPS or RPG. I don't agree with this because choice is one of the most important factors in an MMO, especially an MMORPG.
This entire argument is dumb because if the devs properly integrate choice into a game, people should be able to play how they want to, with everything in the game being obtainable by different means, including gear, level cap, xp, and so on and so forth. Expecting everyone to do the same thing, play the same way, or even level their characters the same way, is going to kill this game if they don't change it.
At two or three points on my way to lvl 30 this last beta, I had quest issues. Instead of being able to move on, we were forced to figure out the work arounds, posts two step by steps for other people, as well as help others (and myself) in the game to get through them, which took time, and it would have been nice if we could have simply chosen to drop the quest and just go onto another quest line had we so desired, especially since we had limited play time. But the way it is now, you are forced to complete certain quests to "unlock" the next "set" of quests for your character. Not a good idea to force someone to do anything in a game. Give people options. Customization and choice are two of the most fun aspects of MMORPG's IMO and they are fundamental to MMORPG's.
It's the same reason we need at least 8-10 man content. Because some people prefer larger groups for doing dungeons... and if those people want to do the raid dungeons over again with DIFFERENT people, why stop them?
We are going to have to agree to disagree... Here is the reasoning behind my stance:
1) In PnP games, you never went back to the same dungeon. Why? Because if you did, it was empty and had no encounters and loot. You had already cleared it out.
2) Not knowing what to expect is part and parcel of the adventuring experience. When you know that:
A) Where all the Traps are.
Where all the encounters are. (And more importantly exactly what tactics it takes to defeat it.)
C) Where all the loot is.
D) Where all the Secret Doors are.
E) And most importantly, exactly where to stop and cast all your preparatory buff spells and use all your buffing items before the encounter (Without Listen or Spot Checks giving you clues.)
The game becomes what the OP complained about. Farming run through's with no sense of adventure or fear.
You want to kill stuff, have the low risk/low reward areas to farm experience I mentioned in my first post. You know, the Goblin Lands, the Orc Mountains, the Kobold wastelands, etc... Where you can encounter group after group of the prolific races to to hone your skills. (Get Exp) Until such a time, as you are so powerful, they know you by name and sight, and hide or run in fear from you.
There is a reason Police and Military Forces train in different environments, and against different foes. Even in Urban MOUT training, they encounter threats in different places each time.
Psyb3rTr011
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
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cruhzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 20Arc User
edited April 2013
I'd rather stay with the 5 man content than having to face the "good old things" that happend when guild needs to grow "bigger" to complete the content the game has.
WoW should be taken as an example, guilds raise and falls, often with much drama associated to it, community member tends to be elitist based on the "guild ranking" etc.
It's a way of playing indeed, but for a D&D game i prefer the epic feeling associated to be the one and only <pick a role> of the company of heroes. Not because i'm one of the 5 healers, 3 tanks and like 17 dpses.
D&D to me it's more about personal heroism, than a large raid of heroes to face that huge threat. Heroes are heroes because are few, motivated and the only ones that can do something.
Edit: sorry for my bad english, it's not my native language
My grammar suck? I'm only italian, sorry. :cool:
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
I'd rather stay with the 5 man content than having to face the "good old things" that happend when guild needs to grow "bigger" to complete the content the game has.
WoW should be taken as an example, guilds raise and falls, often with much drama associated to it, community member tends to be elitist based on the "guild ranking" etc.
It's a way of playing indeed, but for a D&D game i prefer the epic feeling associated to be the one and only <pick a role> of the company of heroes. Not because i'm one of the 5 healers, 3 tanks and like 17 dpses.
D&D to me it's more about personal heroism, than a large raid of heroes to face that huge threat. Heroes are heroes because are few, motivated and the only ones that can do something.
Edit: sorry for my bad english, it's not my native language
Agree completely!
As for your English? I only wish more native speakers were as proficient.
Psyb3rTr011
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
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fptackleMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited April 2013
To start out, I'll admit, I have not played this game at all. I've followed it closely for some time, and fully plan on playing once it goes live (or open beta in this case I guess). But decided long ago (after Vanguard) not to get too involved in a game in the Beta state. Admittedly, I'm not surprised by the polling results at all.
I'm not a raider, but I do really enjoy grouping, and have always really enjoyed playing the tank type class. My biggest issue with raiding, is: First, historically, it's content I'm paying for, and will never really see. This is not as big an issue in this game, as hey, the game is free. Some arguments can be made about where devs are spending their time, etc, but I'm not going to go there.
Next, I honestly don't get why people enjoy raiding so much. Maybe it's because I'm old school D&D, but I really don't get why more numbers equals more fun. In D&D when my party of five kills a dragon, it seems heroic.. adding numbers to that, makes it seem less heroic and more of a mob. To put it another way, when I'm in a group, I'm (hopefully) contributing 20% to what the group is doing. Adding more players, means my contribution drops to 5% (assuming 20 man raid). Now, one of the ways devs have traditionally countered that, is to include things that make it so one person dying equals a wipe for the whole raid, I REALLY hate that mechanic.
My biggest issue with raiding is this though: I hate how, when games have raiding, any player not raiding becomes second class citizens. The best loot always drops in the raids. So basically my MMO experience works like this: Start out, have great fun going through dungeons, tanking, getting compliments about what a good job I do, flamed by others, "whatev's". Eventually I exhaust all the group content, have full heroic gear and the only thing left is raiding. Try raiding, don't enjoy it. Quit that MMO. The only exception to this ever, was in WOW and the raid that had the chess board/ red riding hood/ Prince (sorry, forget that raids name- Karazan maybe?), for some really I really loved that content, it's the only raiding I've ever truly enjoyed.
Now, that said, I see hope in Neverwinter. Assuming that they get the foundry nailed down, so that there can be true group dungeons created in the foundry, that's an endless supply of dungeons to play. My worry here though, is introducing raiding will make all the foundry content completely pointless. Why do it, when you can raid for the best lewts? Now, maybe the Neverwinter Developers will be different, and if they introduce raiding they'll decide to allow other paths of progression that allow access to gear equal to raiders. If there's going to be hardcore 10 mans that provide the best drops in game, then there needs to be (ultra?) hardcore 5 mans that allow access to the same level of gear. I'm not going to hold my breath on that though. That, I think, will be the ultimate compromise, but I don't see it ever happening. I honestly feel the "we like raiding because it's fun and we don't care about loot" crowd is largely a minority. I think the majority go where the loot is and like raiding because it's what gives them the "shiny purples".
(I didn't read the whole thread, so sorry if this is rehashed arguments).
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This is a sweet moment for me. A news that I LOVE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EeicfJGm-k8 Skip to 3.57... RAIDS ARE CONFIRMED! WOHOO! YEEEEEES! However we still don't know how hardcore this game is in loot policy. To say it is even near as hardcore in loot system as WOW is guessing and that has not been proved. However developers have said that this game has ENDGAME and now it is confirmed that RAIDS will be released sooner or later after release. I have no idea how big raids that is unknown,,, 10 maybe, but that is a wild guess. Finally do NOT expect raids soon after release. Raids could be introduced even a year later like Q2 2014, but that is ok and remember this is free game and not even WOW had raids at release.
How big Raids? Well that is unknown but certainly much more then 5! I would guess raids between 10-25 players. However I am content if this game will have at least 10 player Raids. 25 player raid is not must I am neutral to that though I have nothing against it. WOW style that you can get best items from 10 player raids is ok.
Fine I understand that many of you are worried that Foundry content will loose meaning? Foundry will never loose all of its meaning. You should not get max powerful items through Foundry. However Foundry should always provide more adventures that players can enjoy and many skillfull creators can feel rigtfully proud of those adventures they create.
As a free player I only have 2 free character slots. My plan is to with one character enjoy endgame i.e power progression etc. However Foundry content will always be popular since people also want to level up alts... personally I will keep deleting my alt character so I can enjoy low-medium Foundry level adventures.
Quick MMO history lesson - The word "raid" in an mmo denotes content requiring two or more groups of players working together. This started in EverQuest when the devs implemented the sleeper and someone got it in their head to start throwing people at this thing until it died (a couple of hundred players) as the developers had stated previously that the mob was unkillable. Incidentally the mob didn't drop anything when it was finally killed many hours after the fight began, hundreds of bodies on the ground and many levels lost (yeah those were the days of real death penalties), with no reward other than the accomplishment itself. The outcry from the community was so loud about this epic fight that they accomplished that had no reward that the developers were forced to rethink their play model and raid content was born (72man raids), along with random raid loot/rewards.
A 5-6 man dungeon is not a raid, there you are right, and it's called group content. Raiding is nice, but there needs to be more with regard to character development. Otherwise the game becomes a gear-grind at max level and nothing more. There needs to be a character advanacement system in place for the characters to continue growing through continued repetative gameplay. Raiding is a nice start but it will only keep folks playing for so long after hitting level cap. 10-12man content isn't a bad idea, the raid size is managable and loot wouldn't be too difficult to obtain for everyone (try handing out 3 items that dropped from this raid boss we just killed with 72 people and 20 of them want one of the items).
Thanks for the lesson, good to know. I also agree with most of what you said. Thanks for your input.
The game becomes what the OP complained about. Farming run through's with no sense of adventure or fear.
Thanks for your input, you are not wrong because opinions can't be right or wrong. But you are wrong about one thing, I was not complaining, just adding a suggestion that hopefully gets noted by the devs. This is a poll to see what most people want, not a complaint. I always find it so funny that people automatically think someone is complaining, simply because they post in the forum.
I'd rather stay with the 5 man content than having to face the "good old things" that happend when guild needs to grow "bigger" to complete the content the game has.
WoW should be taken as an example, guilds raise and falls, often with much drama associated to it, community member tends to be elitist based on the "guild ranking" etc.
It's a way of playing indeed, but for a D&D game i prefer the epic feeling associated to be the one and only <pick a role> of the company of heroes. Not because i'm one of the 5 healers, 3 tanks and like 17 dpses.
D&D to me it's more about personal heroism, than a large raid of heroes to face that huge threat. Heroes are heroes because are few, motivated and the only ones that can do something.
Edit: sorry for my bad english, it's not my native language
For one, you wouldn't have that many people because I was suggesting 8-10 man content, not 20. I agree with you that 20 is too much, but only having content for 5 people will get boring, not for you, but for a lot of people, as seen by the very poll in this thread. Again, these are only opinions.
To start out, I'll admit, I have not played this game at all. I've followed it closely for some time, and fully plan on playing once it goes live (or open beta in this case I guess). But decided long ago (after Vanguard) not to get too involved in a game in the Beta state. Admittedly, I'm not surprised by the polling results at all.
I'm not a raider, but I do really enjoy grouping, and have always really enjoyed playing the tank type class. My biggest issue with raiding, is: First, historically, it's content I'm paying for, and will never really see. This is not as big an issue in this game, as hey, the game is free. Some arguments can be made about where devs are spending their time, etc, but I'm not going to go there.
Next, I honestly don't get why people enjoy raiding so much. Maybe it's because I'm old school D&D, but I really don't get why more numbers equals more fun. In D&D when my party of five kills a dragon, it seems heroic.. adding numbers to that, makes it seem less heroic and more of a mob. To put it another way, when I'm in a group, I'm (hopefully) contributing 20% to what the group is doing. Adding more players, means my contribution drops to 5% (assuming 20 man raid). Now, one of the ways devs have traditionally countered that, is to include things that make it so one person dying equals a wipe for the whole raid, I REALLY hate that mechanic.
My biggest issue with raiding is this though: I hate how, when games have raiding, any player not raiding becomes second class citizens. The best loot always drops in the raids. So basically my MMO experience works like this: Start out, have great fun going through dungeons, tanking, getting compliments about what a good job I do, flamed by others, "whatev's". Eventually I exhaust all the group content, have full heroic gear and the only thing left is raiding. Try raiding, don't enjoy it. Quit that MMO. The only exception to this ever, was in WOW and the raid that had the chess board/ red riding hood/ Prince (sorry, forget that raids name- Karazan maybe?), for some really I really loved that content, it's the only raiding I've ever truly enjoyed.
Now, that said, I see hope in Neverwinter. Assuming that they get the foundry nailed down, so that there can be true group dungeons created in the foundry, that's an endless supply of dungeons to play. My worry here though, is introducing raiding will make all the foundry content completely pointless. Why do it, when you can raid for the best lewts? Now, maybe the Neverwinter Developers will be different, and if they introduce raiding they'll decide to allow other paths of progression that allow access to gear equal to raiders. If there's going to be hardcore 10 mans that provide the best drops in game, then there needs to be (ultra?) hardcore 5 mans that allow access to the same level of gear. I'm not going to hold my breath on that though. That, I think, will be the ultimate compromise, but I don't see it ever happening. I honestly feel the "we like raiding because it's fun and we don't care about loot" crowd is largely a minority. I think the majority go where the loot is and like raiding because it's what gives them the "shiny purples".
(I didn't read the whole thread, so sorry if this is rehashed arguments).
Yeah your opinions make sense, but I feel that a game should not exclude a certain type of gameplay simply because some people act more proud or "elite" because of it. Those are just those types of people, it's not the game's fault.
Also, you said in your own words that you don't get why people enjoy raiding. Well that's fine, you don't get it. No wonder why you have "issues" with raiding. You don't get it. You also don't feel that having more people equals more fun, well that is again your opinion. But in my personal experience, when raiding with a good guild and with friends, raiding feels much more epic because it's fun to have to depend on each others skill and tactics even more so when raiding and when defeating end bosses, etc. I think a lot of people feel this way. Notice the poll?
Anyway, the devs don't have to listen, you don't have to agree, and these are just opinions. My point was to provide ideas, suggestions, and feedback, and I am just pleased that's what we are getting.
Fine English is not my native language either and while not excellent you show fairly ok English skills so do not worry we understand what you write.
That said these Raid threads should stop lol at least if you can vote 5 which will not become true. This game will 100 % sure have raids!
How big Raids? Well that is unknown but certainly much more then 5! I would guess raids between 10-25 players. However I am content if this game will have at least 10 player Raids. 25 player raid is not must I am neutral to that though I have nothing against it. WOW style that you can get best items from 10 player raids is ok.
Fine I understand that many of you are worried that Foundry content will loose meaning? Foundry will never loose all of its meaning. You should not get max powerful items through Foundry. However Foundry should always provide more adventures that players can enjoy and many skillfull creators can feel rigtfully proud of those adventures they create.
As a free player I only have 2 free character slots. My plan is to with one character enjoy endgame i.e power progression etc. However Foundry content will always be popular since people also want to level up alts... personally I will keep deleting my alt character so I can enjoy low-medium Foundry level adventures.
The guy says it in the video, but do you have an official link to confirm? Also, my poll on raids was posted a little while ago and I could not find anything official about the subject before I posted. Also, the idea is to talk about what people think about raids and if what kind of content they want and for how many players, etc. So saying the posts should stop is kind of dumb. People can talk about whatever they want. No offense. But if you have something more official, that'd be great. I don't know how many times I've heard someone say something in a video, only to have realized it was only a rumor later.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
..But in my personal experience, when raiding with a good guild and with friends, raiding feels much more epic because it's fun to have to depend on each others skill and tactics even more so when raiding and when defeating end bosses, etc.
Excellent point, and one I readily accept...With caveats..
1) Key words Good Guild and Friends. This does not equal a throw-together of everyone and anyone available at the time. I could even see a couple of Guilds cooperating on Raids, for plot line purposes.
2) Going back to my OP on this topic. Raids should never be required to get the most powerful items. Though I can see how a Raid would allow you one time access, to previously unknown 5 man adventures, that provide access to more quality treasures.
I am discussing the topic, as are you, and providing what I would prefer to see. What I want is a RPG Game, with lots of carefully crafted adventure, that requires wits and guile. What I do not want is a WoW/Diablo run through as fast as possible, and don't worry about anything, because there are no real tangible repurcussions for your actions and poor tactics.
You already have a 5 man 5 bot raid. Keep it at 5, gets easy to get lost in the mess as is sometimes. This game doesn't need raiding, maybe for PVP or a FEW PVE missions.... but not enmass.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
.. I think a lot of people feel this way. Notice the poll?
Yes I have, but I believe if the poll were only two choices, 5-6 characters Adventures and 7+ character Raids, that the results would be much more skewed to the 5-6 characters. I believe many did as I did, and accepted that some people would want raids, and compromised with the middle choice to be accomodating.
I base this on the number of posts people made to that effect, as well as the number of people who commented that they did not want mandatory participation in Raid to be a requirement for the best equipment.
Excellent point, and one I readily accept...With caveats..
1) Key words Good Guild and Friends. This does not equal a throw-together of everyone and anyone available at the time. I could even see a couple of Guilds cooperating on Raids, for plot line purposes.
2) Going back to my OP on this topic. Raids should never be required to get the most powerful items. Though I can see how a Raid would allow you one time access, to previously unknown 5 man adventures, that provide access to more quality treasures.
I am discussing the topic, as are you, and providing what I would prefer to see. What I want is a RPG Game, with lots of carefully crafted adventure, that requires wits and guile. What I do not want is a WoW/Diablo run through as fast as possible, and don't worry about anything, because there are no real tangible repurcussions for your actions and poor tactics.
You already have a 5 man 5 bot raid. Keep it at 5, gets easy to get lost in the mess as is sometimes. This game doesn't need raiding, maybe for PVP or a FEW PVE missions.... but not enmass.
Well, I wouldn't describe 8-10 player content "enmass". Simply another type of content and play style enjoyed by the majority of people. You seem to be in the 30% as opposed to the 76% who enjoy this play style.
Yes I have, but I believe if the poll were only two choices, 5-6 characters Adventures and 7+ character Raids, that the results would be much more skewed to the 5-6 characters. I believe many did as I did, and accepted that some people would want raids, and compromised with the middle choice to be accomodating.
I base this on the number of posts people made to that effect, as well as the number of people who commented that they did not want mandatory participation in Raid to be a requirement for the best equipment.
No the poll simply shows that 76% of all players want content for more than 5 people, which was the main point of the poll to begin with. Over 53% want content for at least 8-10 players. If they only wanted 5 or 6, they would have voted that way. If someone wants exactly 6 player content, they would opt for the 5 man choice, not the 8-10 man choice. The results still prove that most people want content for larger groups, as noted even by the majority of people who posted comments in this thread favoring larger group content. You are entitled to your opinion, but it still doesn't change the facts.
And as far as mandatory participation, I agreed with that. I suggested they provide multiple ways of achieving the same loot, not just by raiding. I said as much in my OP, so not sure why you are rehashing that part. Anyway cheers. Thanks for the input.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
Well, I wouldn't describe 8-10 player content "enmass". Simply another type of content and play style enjoyed by the majority of people. You seem to be in the 30% as opposed to the 76% who enjoy this play style.
I suspect the "76%" is due to their being three choices, and many who would have chosen 5 player groups only versus 12+ Raids, to be accomodating to those who like raids.
A better poll question, to accurately determine the type of players would have been:
1) Only 5 Character Party
2) Only Raids
When you offer an option that allows for small raids, and party's, the majority are going to choose both. Just a fact of the game, even though the majority may not actually prefer the raids.
Psyb3rTr011
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I suspect the "76%" is due to their being three choices, and many who would have chosen 5 player groups only versus 12+ Raids, to be accomodating to those who like raids.
A better poll question, to accurately determine the type of players would have been:
1) Only 5 Character Party
2) Only Raids
When you offer an option that allows for small raids, and party's, the majority are going to choose both. Just a fact of the game, even though the majority may not actually prefer the raids.
I don't know what happened to make you hate raiding. But your suggesting a poll where people have the choice to ONLY raid or ONLY do 5 mans to try and prove a point, seems like your grasping. Variety is what keeps games from getting boring. Lots of ways to waste your time is what keeps WOW up there, like it or not.
This thread is a great example of how vocal minorities get games changed for the worse. About half the posts are anti raid. But the poll shows less than 24% against raids. Without the poll devs taking input might reach the wrong conclusion.
A lot of the anti raid sentiment seems to be based around gear. Shouldn't doing something that requires taking extra steps get your extra reward? If not do you also support being able to solo acquire the best gear? So if raiders are being tagged as no life elitists can't anti-raiders be termed as jealous people who resent others getting something they didn't? Which doesn't seem like a good reason to exclude an activity that so many enjoy.
There needs to be something that gives guilds a reason to exist and have size. There needs to be something that encourages social activity. If this game doesn't have it long term success isn't likely.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
I don't know what happened to make you hate raiding. But your suggesting a poll where people have the choice to ONLY raid or ONLY do 5 mans to try and prove a point, seems like your grasping. Variety is what keeps games from getting boring. Lots of ways to waste your time is what keeps WOW up there, like it or not.
This thread is a great example of how vocal minorities get games changed for the worse. About half the posts are anti raid. But the poll shows less than 24% against raids. Without the poll devs taking input might reach the wrong conclusion.
A lot of the anti raid sentiment seems to be based around gear. Shouldn't doing something that requires taking extra steps get your extra reward? If not do you also support being able to solo acquire the best gear? So if raiders are being tagged as no life elitists can't anti-raiders be termed as jealous people who resent others getting something they didn't? Which doesn't seem like a good reason to exclude an activity that so many enjoy.
There needs to be something that gives guilds a reason to exist and have size. There needs to be something that encourages social activity. If this game doesn't have it long term success isn't likely.
Wow, you are reading alot into my post that is not there...
First, I am not ANTI RAIDING! I personally do not prefer that style of game, except on very rare occasions, and with a good In Character and In Plot reason. (For instance, several groups attacking a large enemy encampment from several angles, to gather/destroy some key item for plot advancement). I am an old school PnP gamer, and prefer small teams exploring fascinating and dangerous places for the majority of content.
Second, I have no problem with "Waste your Time" areas, but they should be large hunting areas, with little risk/reward. Think Kobold Hills, Goblin Caves, Orc Plains, Lizardman Swamps, Graveyards, etc
Third, I do not think Adventures should be soloable at all. If I want that, I can get any of the Single Player games out there to play for that. The Elder Scrolls Series being a perfect choice.
Fourth, I do not see how Raids are a extra step that would reward better than a well designed dungeon for 5 players that requires teamwork and attention to detail to succeed. Comperable rewards. No problem, but not better.
Fifth, Guild activity. I can think of many reasons for Guilds to exist besides Raiding only. Guild versus Guild PvP being one. Crafting Guilds. Roleplaying Guilds. Unfortunately, my experience with Guilds after almost two decades of CRPG MMO's, is that they appear and disappear too often, and few have any staying power for more than a couple months. The Original members max out and run out of challenging things to do, and the newbies are unable to get enough people in the Guild together to adventure with. I dislike having characters I have RP'd with for months suddenly disappear. But that is the life of MMO's, and modern gamers. This is boring, move on...
My main hope is that the Forge will allow enough player made content to be available, that players will stay around far longer, as they run through each adventure.
Comments
No offense, but I am sick of this age old argument that people with "no lives" are the only people who seem to have time to raid. Yet, many other games in the past have been able to cater to the casual market with raid content suited to thier play time.
The amount of people who want 8-10 man small raid content in this thread out weighs those who don't.
Explain to me this, if getting the best gear can be obtained from 5 man groups, why even bother implementing raid content? Just stick to 5 man group content and watch the games population die by 80% with in 3 - 4 months when TESO is released.
One last thing, whats the difference between someone who plays for 10 hours a week and takes 8 months to obtain said gear versus someone who plays 40 hours a week and obtains said gear in 2 months? Nothing, they both gained the gear on the same playing feild.
I've grown very tired of MMOs where end game consists of 5 man/Battleground farming and vanity item/title collection. And the lack of money I spend on them shows it. Put the M's back in MMOs please.
Very good post. Only thing I would add is there needs to be a risk/reward that encourages people to do the larger raids. If guilds have no reason to exist, and players shelf max level chars from boredom, that's not a game that lasts.
Your post comes across as offensive, even if you didn't mean it. :-D
I only put the no lives comments in there to address the numerous, College aged and younger, players that flood these games for hours every day, and get to max level with all the powerful stuff within days of release. I have encountered enough of these players in other games to know they exist. Did I hit a sore spot? I mean, I did not name names, and was speaking in very general terms. No idea why you took offense.
I have yet to see a game that does as you say, and caters to the casual gamer with raids suitable to my time (Neither Euro or US timezones, and a couple hours off of Japan and Aussie times due to work schedule). Especially so with my only genre, Swords and Sorcery. Not a fan of any other genre. I also find the cartoony graphics of some games (WoW) to be a turnoff in games too.
I voted for 8-10 man raids..... Even stated so in my original post. Even though I will rarely if ever likely be able to participate in any.
I would reply with a similar question regarding raids "Explain to me this, if getting the best gear can be obtained from raids only, why even bother implementing 5 man party content? Just stick to large raid content and watch the games population die by 80% with in 3 - 4 months when TESO is released." You hit my point precisely. I do not mind that Raids are allowed to accommodate those who prefer them. But I do not think they should garner anything special that regular 5 player adventures cannot.
I also do NOT think you should be able to do a dungeon or raid again and again. Once and done. Allow the player community and Developers to provide enough 5 character adventures and raids for character advancement, as well as experience farming areas with little risk/reward for those times when you are between adventures/raids.
What is the difference? After a very short time, the slower advancing (Casual Gamers) characters are going to have a harder and harder time finding comparable level characters to adventure with. Compounded when you happen to have playing times that are out of the norm for most gamers.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
Agreed. Though obviously I hit a sore spot with another poster by making such a statement. "Dobby will have to punish himself most grievously!"
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
This comment is totally unrealistic btw, you should be able to repeat any part of a game you wish, only being able to do it once or a certain amount of times is totally ridiculous and unnecessary. Games should be about CHOICE. The choice to do anything you want over again or even differently. Choice of playstyle for example... on that note, I do agree with you that high level gear should be obtainable by different methods, I said as much in my OP. This would oblige different types of gamers to play the same game because they all don't have to play the same way. There should also be the choice to level and progress your character in different ways, with different quests even. Currently the game is very linear, with a mostly pre-determined leveling quest path, more like a single person FPS or RPG. I don't agree with this because choice is one of the most important factors in an MMO, especially an MMORPG.
This entire argument is dumb because if the devs properly integrate choice into a game, people should be able to play how they want to, with everything in the game being obtainable by different means, including gear, level cap, xp, and so on and so forth. Expecting everyone to do the same thing, play the same way, or even level their characters the same way, is going to kill this game if they don't change it.
At two or three points on my way to lvl 30 this last beta, I had quest issues. Instead of being able to move on, we were forced to figure out the work arounds, posts two step by steps for other people, as well as help others (and myself) in the game to get through them, which took time, and it would have been nice if we could have simply chosen to drop the quest and just go onto another quest line had we so desired, especially since we had limited play time. But the way it is now, you are forced to complete certain quests to "unlock" the next "set" of quests for your character. Not a good idea to force someone to do anything in a game. Give people options. Customization and choice are two of the most fun aspects of MMORPG's IMO and they are fundamental to MMORPG's.
It's the same reason we need at least 8-10 man content. Because some people prefer larger groups for doing dungeons... and if those people want to do the raid dungeons over again with DIFFERENT people, why stop them?
Quick MMO history lesson - The word "raid" in an mmo denotes content requiring two or more groups of players working together. This started in EverQuest when the devs implemented the sleeper and someone got it in their head to start throwing people at this thing until it died (a couple of hundred players) as the developers had stated previously that the mob was unkillable. Incidentally the mob didn't drop anything when it was finally killed many hours after the fight began, hundreds of bodies on the ground and many levels lost (yeah those were the days of real death penalties), with no reward other than the accomplishment itself. The outcry from the community was so loud about this epic fight that they accomplished that had no reward that the developers were forced to rethink their play model and raid content was born (72man raids), along with random raid loot/rewards.
A 5-6 man dungeon is not a raid, there you are right, and it's called group content. Raiding is nice, but there needs to be more with regard to character development. Otherwise the game becomes a gear-grind at max level and nothing more. There needs to be a character advanacement system in place for the characters to continue growing through continued repetative gameplay. Raiding is a nice start but it will only keep folks playing for so long after hitting level cap. 10-12man content isn't a bad idea, the raid size is managable and loot wouldn't be too difficult to obtain for everyone (try handing out 3 items that dropped from this raid boss we just killed with 72 people and 20 of them want one of the items).
We are going to have to agree to disagree... Here is the reasoning behind my stance:
1) In PnP games, you never went back to the same dungeon. Why? Because if you did, it was empty and had no encounters and loot. You had already cleared it out.
2) Not knowing what to expect is part and parcel of the adventuring experience. When you know that:
A) Where all the Traps are.
C) Where all the loot is.
D) Where all the Secret Doors are.
E) And most importantly, exactly where to stop and cast all your preparatory buff spells and use all your buffing items before the encounter (Without Listen or Spot Checks giving you clues.)
The game becomes what the OP complained about. Farming run through's with no sense of adventure or fear.
You want to kill stuff, have the low risk/low reward areas to farm experience I mentioned in my first post. You know, the Goblin Lands, the Orc Mountains, the Kobold wastelands, etc... Where you can encounter group after group of the prolific races to to hone your skills. (Get Exp) Until such a time, as you are so powerful, they know you by name and sight, and hide or run in fear from you.
There is a reason Police and Military Forces train in different environments, and against different foes. Even in Urban MOUT training, they encounter threats in different places each time.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
WoW should be taken as an example, guilds raise and falls, often with much drama associated to it, community member tends to be elitist based on the "guild ranking" etc.
It's a way of playing indeed, but for a D&D game i prefer the epic feeling associated to be the one and only <pick a role> of the company of heroes. Not because i'm one of the 5 healers, 3 tanks and like 17 dpses.
D&D to me it's more about personal heroism, than a large raid of heroes to face that huge threat. Heroes are heroes because are few, motivated and the only ones that can do something.
Edit: sorry for my bad english, it's not my native language
Agree completely!
As for your English? I only wish more native speakers were as proficient.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
I'm not a raider, but I do really enjoy grouping, and have always really enjoyed playing the tank type class. My biggest issue with raiding, is: First, historically, it's content I'm paying for, and will never really see. This is not as big an issue in this game, as hey, the game is free. Some arguments can be made about where devs are spending their time, etc, but I'm not going to go there.
Next, I honestly don't get why people enjoy raiding so much. Maybe it's because I'm old school D&D, but I really don't get why more numbers equals more fun. In D&D when my party of five kills a dragon, it seems heroic.. adding numbers to that, makes it seem less heroic and more of a mob. To put it another way, when I'm in a group, I'm (hopefully) contributing 20% to what the group is doing. Adding more players, means my contribution drops to 5% (assuming 20 man raid). Now, one of the ways devs have traditionally countered that, is to include things that make it so one person dying equals a wipe for the whole raid, I REALLY hate that mechanic.
My biggest issue with raiding is this though: I hate how, when games have raiding, any player not raiding becomes second class citizens. The best loot always drops in the raids. So basically my MMO experience works like this: Start out, have great fun going through dungeons, tanking, getting compliments about what a good job I do, flamed by others, "whatev's". Eventually I exhaust all the group content, have full heroic gear and the only thing left is raiding. Try raiding, don't enjoy it. Quit that MMO. The only exception to this ever, was in WOW and the raid that had the chess board/ red riding hood/ Prince (sorry, forget that raids name- Karazan maybe?), for some really I really loved that content, it's the only raiding I've ever truly enjoyed.
Now, that said, I see hope in Neverwinter. Assuming that they get the foundry nailed down, so that there can be true group dungeons created in the foundry, that's an endless supply of dungeons to play. My worry here though, is introducing raiding will make all the foundry content completely pointless. Why do it, when you can raid for the best lewts? Now, maybe the Neverwinter Developers will be different, and if they introduce raiding they'll decide to allow other paths of progression that allow access to gear equal to raiders. If there's going to be hardcore 10 mans that provide the best drops in game, then there needs to be (ultra?) hardcore 5 mans that allow access to the same level of gear. I'm not going to hold my breath on that though. That, I think, will be the ultimate compromise, but I don't see it ever happening. I honestly feel the "we like raiding because it's fun and we don't care about loot" crowd is largely a minority. I think the majority go where the loot is and like raiding because it's what gives them the "shiny purples".
(I didn't read the whole thread, so sorry if this is rehashed arguments).
That said these Raid threads should stop lol at least if you can vote 5 which will not become true. This game will 100 % sure have raids! How big Raids? Well that is unknown but certainly much more then 5! I would guess raids between 10-25 players. However I am content if this game will have at least 10 player Raids. 25 player raid is not must I am neutral to that though I have nothing against it. WOW style that you can get best items from 10 player raids is ok.
Fine I understand that many of you are worried that Foundry content will loose meaning? Foundry will never loose all of its meaning. You should not get max powerful items through Foundry. However Foundry should always provide more adventures that players can enjoy and many skillfull creators can feel rigtfully proud of those adventures they create.
As a free player I only have 2 free character slots. My plan is to with one character enjoy endgame i.e power progression etc. However Foundry content will always be popular since people also want to level up alts... personally I will keep deleting my alt character so I can enjoy low-medium Foundry level adventures.
Thanks for the lesson, good to know. I also agree with most of what you said. Thanks for your input.
Thanks for your input, you are not wrong because opinions can't be right or wrong. But you are wrong about one thing, I was not complaining, just adding a suggestion that hopefully gets noted by the devs. This is a poll to see what most people want, not a complaint. I always find it so funny that people automatically think someone is complaining, simply because they post in the forum.
For one, you wouldn't have that many people because I was suggesting 8-10 man content, not 20. I agree with you that 20 is too much, but only having content for 5 people will get boring, not for you, but for a lot of people, as seen by the very poll in this thread. Again, these are only opinions.
Yeah your opinions make sense, but I feel that a game should not exclude a certain type of gameplay simply because some people act more proud or "elite" because of it. Those are just those types of people, it's not the game's fault.
Also, you said in your own words that you don't get why people enjoy raiding. Well that's fine, you don't get it. No wonder why you have "issues" with raiding. You don't get it. You also don't feel that having more people equals more fun, well that is again your opinion. But in my personal experience, when raiding with a good guild and with friends, raiding feels much more epic because it's fun to have to depend on each others skill and tactics even more so when raiding and when defeating end bosses, etc. I think a lot of people feel this way. Notice the poll?
Anyway, the devs don't have to listen, you don't have to agree, and these are just opinions. My point was to provide ideas, suggestions, and feedback, and I am just pleased that's what we are getting.
The guy says it in the video, but do you have an official link to confirm? Also, my poll on raids was posted a little while ago and I could not find anything official about the subject before I posted. Also, the idea is to talk about what people think about raids and if what kind of content they want and for how many players, etc. So saying the posts should stop is kind of dumb. People can talk about whatever they want. No offense. But if you have something more official, that'd be great. I don't know how many times I've heard someone say something in a video, only to have realized it was only a rumor later.
Excellent point, and one I readily accept...With caveats..
1) Key words Good Guild and Friends. This does not equal a throw-together of everyone and anyone available at the time. I could even see a couple of Guilds cooperating on Raids, for plot line purposes.
2) Going back to my OP on this topic. Raids should never be required to get the most powerful items. Though I can see how a Raid would allow you one time access, to previously unknown 5 man adventures, that provide access to more quality treasures.
I am discussing the topic, as are you, and providing what I would prefer to see. What I want is a RPG Game, with lots of carefully crafted adventure, that requires wits and guile. What I do not want is a WoW/Diablo run through as fast as possible, and don't worry about anything, because there are no real tangible repurcussions for your actions and poor tactics.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
Yes I have, but I believe if the poll were only two choices, 5-6 characters Adventures and 7+ character Raids, that the results would be much more skewed to the 5-6 characters. I believe many did as I did, and accepted that some people would want raids, and compromised with the middle choice to be accomodating.
I base this on the number of posts people made to that effect, as well as the number of people who commented that they did not want mandatory participation in Raid to be a requirement for the best equipment.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
Totally agree with both of your points. Thanks!
Well, I wouldn't describe 8-10 player content "enmass". Simply another type of content and play style enjoyed by the majority of people. You seem to be in the 30% as opposed to the 76% who enjoy this play style.
No the poll simply shows that 76% of all players want content for more than 5 people, which was the main point of the poll to begin with. Over 53% want content for at least 8-10 players. If they only wanted 5 or 6, they would have voted that way. If someone wants exactly 6 player content, they would opt for the 5 man choice, not the 8-10 man choice. The results still prove that most people want content for larger groups, as noted even by the majority of people who posted comments in this thread favoring larger group content. You are entitled to your opinion, but it still doesn't change the facts.
And as far as mandatory participation, I agreed with that. I suggested they provide multiple ways of achieving the same loot, not just by raiding. I said as much in my OP, so not sure why you are rehashing that part. Anyway cheers. Thanks for the input.
I suspect the "76%" is due to their being three choices, and many who would have chosen 5 player groups only versus 12+ Raids, to be accomodating to those who like raids.
A better poll question, to accurately determine the type of players would have been:
1) Only 5 Character Party
2) Only Raids
When you offer an option that allows for small raids, and party's, the majority are going to choose both. Just a fact of the game, even though the majority may not actually prefer the raids.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
I don't know what happened to make you hate raiding. But your suggesting a poll where people have the choice to ONLY raid or ONLY do 5 mans to try and prove a point, seems like your grasping. Variety is what keeps games from getting boring. Lots of ways to waste your time is what keeps WOW up there, like it or not.
This thread is a great example of how vocal minorities get games changed for the worse. About half the posts are anti raid. But the poll shows less than 24% against raids. Without the poll devs taking input might reach the wrong conclusion.
A lot of the anti raid sentiment seems to be based around gear. Shouldn't doing something that requires taking extra steps get your extra reward? If not do you also support being able to solo acquire the best gear? So if raiders are being tagged as no life elitists can't anti-raiders be termed as jealous people who resent others getting something they didn't? Which doesn't seem like a good reason to exclude an activity that so many enjoy.
There needs to be something that gives guilds a reason to exist and have size. There needs to be something that encourages social activity. If this game doesn't have it long term success isn't likely.
Wow, you are reading alot into my post that is not there...
First, I am not ANTI RAIDING! I personally do not prefer that style of game, except on very rare occasions, and with a good In Character and In Plot reason. (For instance, several groups attacking a large enemy encampment from several angles, to gather/destroy some key item for plot advancement). I am an old school PnP gamer, and prefer small teams exploring fascinating and dangerous places for the majority of content.
Second, I have no problem with "Waste your Time" areas, but they should be large hunting areas, with little risk/reward. Think Kobold Hills, Goblin Caves, Orc Plains, Lizardman Swamps, Graveyards, etc
Third, I do not think Adventures should be soloable at all. If I want that, I can get any of the Single Player games out there to play for that. The Elder Scrolls Series being a perfect choice.
Fourth, I do not see how Raids are a extra step that would reward better than a well designed dungeon for 5 players that requires teamwork and attention to detail to succeed. Comperable rewards. No problem, but not better.
Fifth, Guild activity. I can think of many reasons for Guilds to exist besides Raiding only. Guild versus Guild PvP being one. Crafting Guilds. Roleplaying Guilds. Unfortunately, my experience with Guilds after almost two decades of CRPG MMO's, is that they appear and disappear too often, and few have any staying power for more than a couple months. The Original members max out and run out of challenging things to do, and the newbies are unable to get enough people in the Guild together to adventure with. I dislike having characters I have RP'd with for months suddenly disappear. But that is the life of MMO's, and modern gamers. This is boring, move on...
My main hope is that the Forge will allow enough player made content to be available, that players will stay around far longer, as they run through each adventure.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd