I don't think 5 person groups qualifies as a raid, honestly.
You really need something more than a standard group size to be considered a raid.
I've enjoyed raiding in games in the past. Even the ridiculous 100+ person raids were interesting up to a point, but to be honest, I don't really want to participate in those anymore (e.g.; EQ).
Anything from 8 to 36 would be ok.
That being said, the problem with raids over 12 seem to be
it's difficult to determine the status of the rest of your group at a glance (and its caveat - how much screen real estate does keeping track of your raid buddies actually require?)
what is your character's role in a bigger raid? The larger the raid, the more anonymous you become - which tends to detract from some of the fun of an MMO/RPG in general
Veteran MMO player; Veteran D&D Player
From M59, UO EQ, & DaoC to the present
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't think 5 person groups qualifies as a raid, honestly.
You really need something more than a standard group size to be considered a raid.
I've enjoyed raiding in games in the past. Even the ridiculous 100+ person raids were interesting up to a point, but to be honest, I don't really want to participate in those anymore (e.g.; EQ).
Anything from 8 to 36 would be ok.
That being said, the problem with raids over 12 seem to be
it's difficult to determine the status of the rest of your group at a glance (and its caveat - how much screen real estate does keeping track of your raid buddies actually required?)
what is your character's role in a bigger raid? The larger the raid, the more anonymous you become - which tends to detract from some of the fun of an MMO/RPG in general
Yes agree with this logic. 40 people raids are the biggest raids that I have experienced in WOW, but a 10 player raid would already satisfy my raid need though I am neutral to thought of bigger raids then 10. 10-25 is fine for me and already support of 10 players raids would make many raiders happy.
For clarification I want minimum 10 players to call it Raid. 8 is not 10. Sorry I am used to WOW Raid size categories...
" I am content if this game will have at least 10 player Raids. "
Same here and I think we can speak for at least 50% of people playing the game. I am somewhat neutral on the amount of players in a raid as well, but I know that a lot of people feel that 20+ is just too many an adds to the chaos factor. I can respect that. I just feel that only having content for 5 people will get boring and I know many feel that way. I guess we can only hope that they will implement raids sooner rather than later, but at least it's confirmed. Thanks.
No offense, but I am sick of this age old argument that people with "no lives" are the only people who seem to have time to raid. Yet, many other games in the past have been able to cater to the casual market with raid content suited to thier play time.
The amount of people who want 8-10 man small raid content in this thread out weighs those who don't.
Explain to me this, if getting the best gear can be obtained from 5 man groups, why even bother implementing raid content? Just stick to 5 man group content and watch the games population die by 80% with in 3 - 4 months when TESO is released.
One last thing, whats the difference between someone who plays for 10 hours a week and takes 8 months to obtain said gear versus someone who plays 40 hours a week and obtains said gear in 2 months? Nothing, they both gained the gear on the same playing feild.
And when you don't get your WoW on a stick with Elder Scrolls because they're not looking to make a WoW clone then what? Your raids won't have enough of what "raiders" consider needed for raids (traditional tanks and healers) because people are enjoying the game playing it the way they wish. Will you emo back to WoW because ESO will also die in 3 - 4 months because it to is not like WoW? ESO is setting itself up to run just fine on this platform and the amount of players who will play this way will probably outweigh those who want to raid it like WoW. There is no reason Neverwinter cannot run fine on its own setup. The majority is normally a horrible reason to make some the case.
And when you don't get your WoW on a stick with Elder Scrolls because they're not looking to make a WoW clone then what? Your raids won't have enough of what "raiders" consider needed for raids (traditional tanks and healers) because people are enjoying the game playing it the way they wish. Will you emo back to WoW because ESO will also die in 3 - 4 months because it to is not like WoW? ESO is setting itself up to run just fine on this platform and the amount of players who will play this way will probably outweigh those who want to raid it like WoW. There is no reason Neverwinter cannot run fine on its own setup. The majority is normally a horrible reason to make some the case.
Ok, this post is totally flaming, trolling, and immature. Don't come into a perfectly logical thread of mature people, discussing things in a calm and intelligent manner and start flaming people, calling them emo just because they enjoy a certain play style.
People who post things like you just did are either A. 12 years old B. Have a compulsive desire to flame people in forums or C. Can't handle it when other people enjoy an aspect of the game differently than they do.
But whatever the reason this subject gets you riled enough to flame other people the way you just did, why don't you deal with your own apparent issues offline so the rest of us can discuss it politely and respectfully?
But I'll say it again, if the same loot is available by other means besides raiding, there is no reason not to have raid dungeons in game. Apparently it's already been decided in house, they just have yet to make a public announcement. No one is saying they want a wow-clone, this game is already far from it. And no one should criticize anyone else just because they enjoy larger group dungeons or playing with more people than 5. To say all raiders just want "wow on a stick" is the stupidest comment I've heard yet... and that's really saying something because I've heard a lot.
By the way, thanks peeps for keeping the conversation going (which keeps this thread at the top of this forum, which keeps it visible, which causes people to notice and take part in it). It's great to see the votes increase (and the percentages remain yet the same). Go raiders!
Also, I have added the recent news that was brought to light by Elewyndyl as an update in the OP. I'd like to keep a record of any other news, links, or videos people bring to this thread as well, just so we can stay on top of development. So if anyone has anything else to share regarding larger group content or raids or endgame in general, don't hesitate to share it here.
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bluelarksMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 3Arc User
Exacly, raids are fun but it shouldnt be the only place in the game to get the best gear.
Why do you need the best gear if you're not doing raids?
Generally, the "best gear" is only the best because it's required to complete the raid content. If you're not doing raids, why would you want / need the extra stats?
Why do you need the best gear if you're not doing raids?
Generally, the "best gear" is only the best because it's required to complete the raid content. If you're not doing raids, why would you want / need the extra stats?
Good point, but simply having great gear makes one more powerful, which should make all content easier, including 5 man dungeons. It would increase DPS, overall damage, armor, etc. If better gear makes you more powerful, who would not want that? Plus there is the status factor. Having better gear makes the hardest content easier to beat, whether that content be a larger dungeon or a 5 man dungeon. Personally I feel that if done right, there should be 5 man dungeons that are just as hard as a raid dungeon, just requiring less people, so the best gear would make the 5 man content easier as well as the 8-10 man content.
After all, the best gear shouldn't exist only to help you raid. Besides, we've been using the term "raid" to simply mean a dungeon for more people than 5, why would getting better gear only apply to running a dungeon with 3 to 5 more people than the standard amount?
First off, you put 5 as an option for the raiding number people want, then "flame" someone for posting they want a 5 man raid by saying 5 players is not a raid. Second, where in my post did I ever say all raiders want WoW on a stick? You're too busy editing every post you place in here to pay full attention to what people are actually saying. This game will do fine in its own right and does not need to do what others have done to make their version of raid content.
I feel NW can have both a 10 man raid and a Server Boss Raid. the 10m can be quick or not depending on how the developers feel. the Server boss raid could need over 75 people to down. I did love DAoC for the Realm Dragons they had. It was different. I even love raiding in WoW (10 man). I can't really see any more than 10 because of the way the players change.
I know i contradict myself but i mean that 10 players is great for taking down content on a regular basis. an outdoor server boss is more of a 'calling all guilds' kind of thing and not something you'd do every week.
Ha, I guess I just described what WoW has now. 10 man raid and Sha/Galleon/New ones.
Open the Launcher. Click Options near the top. Check Disable on-demand patching. This will download another couple of gigs.
Why do you need the best gear if you're not doing raids?
Generally, the "best gear" is only the best because it's required to complete the raid content. If you're not doing raids, why would you want / need the extra stats?
PVP, blitzing through dungeons, painting the wall with ACT prints. :rolleyes:
And when you don't get your WoW on a stick with Elder Scrolls because they're not looking to make a WoW clone then what?
so you would think that most people want 10+ raids want exactly WOW super hardcore item system that is what I would understand.
First of all.
1. Yes WOW was very good I played WOW for many years... however I have seen it all of WOW... I want a new World to explore etc. and Foundry will give me things to explore even though Neverwinter is very instanced game, but so be it though I hope they make open world also bigger.
2. I payed 500 euro+ for WOW. Yes I work and I have money, but I have have a lot debt right now from that I buyed my second home. That means I would like very much play a FREE game for years thank you. Yes I own something but right now I do not feel rich.
3. It is not only me. One of my best friends has no work right now... he also want to play a FREE game.
4. Raids is not the only thing that I like. I played Baldurs Gate 1,2 and Neverwinter Nights 1, 2 and I like Dungeons and Dragons world and I also like PvP.
Finally I also like Foundry. However I will not lie to you. Yes I want that Raids will give the best items.However some ok/good items also you can get from Foundry, PvP etc.
That saying we do not know how hardcore this game will be with items. If you want to a game that will have no raids then you can play Guild Wars 2. Neverwinter will be more hardcore then Guild Wars 2 95 % sure of that but to say that Neverwinter is even near as hardcore as WOW in items system has not been proved. I think Guild War 2 has HAMSTER PvE, but those who want only a game with no raids(10+) can go and play Guild Wars 2.
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thevlakaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
so you would think that most people want 10+ raids want exactly WOW super hardcore item system that is what I would understand.
First of all.
1. Yes WOW was very good I played WOW for many years... however I have seen it all of WOW... I want a new World to explore etc. and Foundry will give me things to explore even though Neverwinter is very instanced game, but so be it though I hope they make open world also bigger.
2. I payed 500 euro+ for WOW. Yes I work and I have money, but I have have a lot debt right now from that I buyed my second home. That means I would like very much play a FREE game for years thank you. Yes I own something but right now I do not feel rich.
3. It is not only me. One of my best friends has no work right now... he also want to play a FREE game.
4. Raids is not the only thing that I like. I played Baldurs Gate 1,2 and Neverwinter Nights 1, 2 and I like Dungeons and Dragons world and I also like PvP.
Finally I also like Foundry. However I will not lie to you. Yes I want that Raids will give the best items.However some ok/good items also you can get from Foundry, PvP etc.
That saying we do not know how hardcore this game will be with items. If you want to a game that will have no raids then you can play Guild Wars 2. Neverwinter will be more hardcore then Guild Wars 2 95 % sure of that but to say that Neverwinter is even near as hardcore as WOW in items system has not been proved. I think Guild War 2 has HAMSTER PvE, but those who want only a game with no raids(10+) can go and play Guild Wars 2.
Guild wars 2 does pve pretty good albeit messy and poorly structured. It punishes you for out leveling a zone by scaling you down, has no end game to speak of and relies way too much on a carebear attitude of players. Poorly developed and rushed.
Neverwinter to me seems like a casual take on the WoW formula, not taking itself too seriously but also allowing for the option of catering to the 'hardcore'. As long as I can go solo my share of dungeons to run around in crappy vendor trash gear or just flex my e-muscles and then jump in raids/5 man heroics i'm more than happy. That's more than I can say GW2 offered
I agree the open world would be nice instead of instanced, only time will tell ;D
First off, you put 5 as an option for the raiding number people want, then "flame" someone for posting they want a 5 man raid by saying 5 players is not a raid. Second, where in my post did I ever say all raiders want WoW on a stick? You're too busy editing every post you place in here to pay full attention to what people are actually saying. This game will do fine in its own right and does not need to do what others have done to make their version of raid content.
I have quoted you saying "wow on a stick" below. You may not have said "all raiders" want wow on a stick, but that wasn't the point, the point was that you assume the person you were replying to just wants a wow clone and that assumption isn't even logical. But my main point is that I'd like to keep this conversation civil without making assumptions, calling people names, or flaming.
And when you don't get your WoW on a stick with Elder Scrolls because they're not looking to make a WoW clone then what? Your raids won't have enough of what "raiders" consider needed for raids (traditional tanks and healers) because people are enjoying the game playing it the way they wish. Will you emo back to WoW because ESO will also die in 3 - 4 months because it to is not like WoW? ESO is setting itself up to run just fine on this platform and the amount of players who will play this way will probably outweigh those who want to raid it like WoW. There is no reason Neverwinter cannot run fine on its own setup. The majority is normally a horrible reason to make some the case.
But on the other hand I think we agree in general that this game will be successful in it's own right, not by copying other games (especially wow, ugh) but by doing things in it's own unique way. I wish more game developers would do that.
I feel NW can have both a 10 man raid and a Server Boss Raid. the 10m can be quick or not depending on how the developers feel. the Server boss raid could need over 75 people to down. I did love DAoC for the Realm Dragons they had. It was different. I even love raiding in WoW (10 man). I can't really see any more than 10 because of the way the players change.
I know i contradict myself but i mean that 10 players is great for taking down content on a regular basis. an outdoor server boss is more of a 'calling all guilds' kind of thing and not something you'd do every week.
Ha, I guess I just described what WoW has now. 10 man raid and Sha/Galleon/New ones.
I agree, I think there are many ways it can be done, but they just need to make sure they are true to D&D, create a unique gameplay experience, and do not simply copy games like wow. Those points, plus simply having harder, larger content for more players than the standard 5 are the most important aspects to me.
Guild wars 2 does pve pretty good albeit messy and poorly structured. It punishes you for out leveling a zone by scaling you down, has no end game to speak of and relies way too much on a carebear attitude of players. Poorly developed and rushed.
Neverwinter to me seems like a casual take on the WoW formula, not taking itself too seriously but also allowing for the option of catering to the 'hardcore'. As long as I can go solo my share of dungeons to run around in crappy vendor trash gear or just flex my e-muscles and then jump in raids/5 man heroics i'm more than happy. That's more than I can say GW2 offered
I agree the open world would be nice instead of instanced, only time will tell ;D
100% Agree with both of you (Elewyndyl and Thevlaka) on all points. I played GW2 as well as it was as everyone said it would be: really fun questing while leveling, but with no endgame at all, the game suffers. I just plain and simply got bored as so many other people did.
That game would be awesome if they would create better dungeons and add raid dungeons that were better suited to the actual classes and roles a party had. But as it is now with the "dungeons" it does have, roles are basically meaningless, which to me really tends to dumb down a game. Roles and classes should be of at least some importance. That's why I hope they make the healer class a bit more significant in NW than it is now. People want to feel like they are contributing as much as they can to a group, that's what makes running dungeons and raids fun, at least IMO.
If roles are significant to a party, if content is challenging enough, if there exists larger group content such as raids, if they make the maps more open-world and less tunnel shaped, and questing / leveling less linear, and if they can pull this off without just being another wow clone, then in my book this will be a fun game and most likely be very successful as well.
I think they should not implement any type of raiding system at all; they should leave it as a five man dungeon delves with Epic Heroics. This is D&D, you did not get a group of Ten+ people to come over to your house to go “raid” a dragon you got a small group of friends to go adventure with. As very busy person, I do not have all the time in the world to play a game, so I like the fact that I can grab my wife, kid and two others (whether they are my RL friends or not) and within a few minutes we can be having a great time in an Epic Heroic Dungeon.
Another thing you have to think about is this is a F2P game it might not have the money to develop both raids and dungeons at the same time, so one would have to be put on the back burner, so the other can be developed. So who should suffer and not get any updates the people who want raids or the people who want five man dungeons? WOW stopped putting out any new dungeons except at the beginning of an expansion, because it was too much to put out Dungeons, Raids and there story arcs (sorry forgot the name). With one type of end game it is so much easier to put out content, then to try and put out content to please everyone.
Now I do have to say this, this is post it not meant to upset or aggravate anyone this is my opinion and how I feel about the game. I understand a few people will disagree with me, but I know a few people don’t. Here’s to me hoping that they can do it all if that is what they want to try.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
Why do you need the best gear if you're not doing raids?
Generally, the "best gear" is only the best because it's required to complete the raid content. If you're not doing raids, why would you want / need the extra stats?
Disagree completely. If a 5 character Dungeon is designed right, you will not survive unless you have the best gear commensurate with your level. That was the way it was in PnP games, and the way it should be in a CMMORPG.
I would argue the opposite. When you can have 20 players in a Raid, no one needs to have the best gear to defeat the Boss. You have sheer numbers to your advantage.
I like to use the "Kobold Analogy". Given enough Kobolds, even the greatest Hero (Read: Boss) can be taken down. Natural 20's always hit. So, 20 Kobolds will his on average once a round. 200 will hit 10 times a rounds. 2000 will hit 100 times a round. Kobolds prefer missile weapons with range, so enough of them firing at the same target will take down anything.
I dont see why they could not add multi group content (raids) to the foundry...
But in the end people expecting the best loot commng from raids will be very when they find out it are the same loottables in place
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
So the no raid argument seems to come down to it wasn't that way in PnP, and someone might get gear in raiding that is only available that way. Add that to comments like Raiding started in WOW, single group content can be just as challenging/rewarding, or no one needs the best gear in a raid, but you would in 5 mans and it really comes across and a petty and uninformed minority.
I played WOW, I have no issues admitting that like some ). I led raids and I also did server first single group hard mode achievements. Both were fun. But hands down the 5 man even at its most difficult levels was still in easier. Long term for me raids were more rewarding. Probably because that was where I met and interacted with the most people.
What I didn't like about WOW was arena PVP. I felt it was too small at 2-5 players. Sometimes BIS weapons were the Arena gear weapon. Amazingly I suffered no permanent damage from just using another weapon gotten from something I enjoyed.
So it has been confirmed that raids will be coming and 74% of the votes here want raiding.
Those who are against it, get over it. Time and time again it has been shown and proven that games with no end game content of any kind, shape or form fail to keep people interested and playing the game which only further makes it harder for the non-raiders to get stuff done in the form of small group content when raiders run quests, dungeons and dailies.
MMORPG's are a circle of life, we all feed each other. Take one away, the other fails.
And when you don't get your WoW on a stick with Elder Scrolls because they're not looking to make a WoW clone then what? Your raids won't have enough of what "raiders" consider needed for raids (traditional tanks and healers) because people are enjoying the game playing it the way they wish. Will you emo back to WoW because ESO will also die in 3 - 4 months because it to is not like WoW? ESO is setting itself up to run just fine on this platform and the amount of players who will play this way will probably outweigh those who want to raid it like WoW. There is no reason Neverwinter cannot run fine on its own setup. The majority is normally a horrible reason to make some the case.
Thats fine and you are welcome to your out-of-context opinion, however, answer this for me.
Whats the difference between someone who plays for 10 hours a week and takes 8 months to obtain said gear versus someone who plays 40 hours a week and obtains said gear in 2 months?
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
This is D&D, you did not get a group of Ten+ people to come over to your house to go “raid” a dragon you got a small group of friends to go adventure with
I did. We got as many as 20 players to go raid dungeons playing tabletop. I hear at the conventions the groups get crazy huge.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
Time and time again it has been shown and proven that games with no end game content of any kind, shape or form fail to keep people interested and playing the game which only further makes it harder for the non-raiders to get stuff done in the form of small group content when raiders run quests, dungeons and dailies.
Err, umm, a Good Game can have excellent End Game content that is not for a RAID. The previous Neverwinter games and Shattered Scrolls series had excellent End Game Content for individuals and small parties.
Blaming poor adventure design, as your argument does, for poor end of game content is a cop out. Great End of Game content could easily be 5 character party or RAID.
I think they should not implement any type of raiding system at all; they should leave it as a five man dungeon delves with Epic Heroics. This is D&D, you did not get a group of Ten+ people to come over to your house to go “raid” a dragon you got a small group of friends to go adventure with. As very busy person, I do not have all the time in the world to play a game, so I like the fact that I can grab my wife, kid and two others (whether they are my RL friends or not) and within a few minutes we can be having a great time in an Epic Heroic Dungeon.
Another thing you have to think about is this is a F2P game it might not have the money to develop both raids and dungeons at the same time, so one would have to be put on the back burner, so the other can be developed. So who should suffer and not get any updates the people who want raids or the people who want five man dungeons? WOW stopped putting out any new dungeons except at the beginning of an expansion, because it was too much to put out Dungeons, Raids and there story arcs (sorry forgot the name). With one type of end game it is so much easier to put out content, then to try and put out content to please everyone.
Now I do have to say this, this is post it not meant to upset or aggravate anyone this is my opinion and how I feel about the game. I understand a few people will disagree with me, but I know a few people don’t. Here’s to me hoping that they can do it all if that is what they want to try.
Again, just because some people don't have a lot of time to invest doesn't mean everyone is in the same boat, and if the same loot is attainable by other means, then that solves this issue. I explained this in my OP as a solution for people with less time. Also, I believe it is possible to implement raids that don't require as much of a time investment as well. Again, I believe a well designed MMORPG should have options and many different play styles for many different types of gamers, as long as one play style is not mutually exclusive in terms of character progression.
Comments
You really need something more than a standard group size to be considered a raid.
I've enjoyed raiding in games in the past. Even the ridiculous 100+ person raids were interesting up to a point, but to be honest, I don't really want to participate in those anymore (e.g.; EQ).
Anything from 8 to 36 would be ok.
That being said, the problem with raids over 12 seem to be
From M59, UO EQ, & DaoC to the present
For clarification I want minimum 10 players to call it Raid. 8 is not 10. Sorry I am used to WOW Raid size categories...
Same here and I think we can speak for at least 50% of people playing the game. I am somewhat neutral on the amount of players in a raid as well, but I know that a lot of people feel that 20+ is just too many an adds to the chaos factor. I can respect that. I just feel that only having content for 5 people will get boring and I know many feel that way. I guess we can only hope that they will implement raids sooner rather than later, but at least it's confirmed. Thanks.
And when you don't get your WoW on a stick with Elder Scrolls because they're not looking to make a WoW clone then what? Your raids won't have enough of what "raiders" consider needed for raids (traditional tanks and healers) because people are enjoying the game playing it the way they wish. Will you emo back to WoW because ESO will also die in 3 - 4 months because it to is not like WoW? ESO is setting itself up to run just fine on this platform and the amount of players who will play this way will probably outweigh those who want to raid it like WoW. There is no reason Neverwinter cannot run fine on its own setup. The majority is normally a horrible reason to make some the case.
Ok, this post is totally flaming, trolling, and immature. Don't come into a perfectly logical thread of mature people, discussing things in a calm and intelligent manner and start flaming people, calling them emo just because they enjoy a certain play style.
People who post things like you just did are either A. 12 years old B. Have a compulsive desire to flame people in forums or C. Can't handle it when other people enjoy an aspect of the game differently than they do.
But whatever the reason this subject gets you riled enough to flame other people the way you just did, why don't you deal with your own apparent issues offline so the rest of us can discuss it politely and respectfully?
But I'll say it again, if the same loot is available by other means besides raiding, there is no reason not to have raid dungeons in game. Apparently it's already been decided in house, they just have yet to make a public announcement. No one is saying they want a wow-clone, this game is already far from it. And no one should criticize anyone else just because they enjoy larger group dungeons or playing with more people than 5. To say all raiders just want "wow on a stick" is the stupidest comment I've heard yet... and that's really saying something because I've heard a lot.
Also, I have added the recent news that was brought to light by Elewyndyl as an update in the OP. I'd like to keep a record of any other news, links, or videos people bring to this thread as well, just so we can stay on top of development. So if anyone has anything else to share regarding larger group content or raids or endgame in general, don't hesitate to share it here.
Why do you need the best gear if you're not doing raids?
Generally, the "best gear" is only the best because it's required to complete the raid content. If you're not doing raids, why would you want / need the extra stats?
Good point, but simply having great gear makes one more powerful, which should make all content easier, including 5 man dungeons. It would increase DPS, overall damage, armor, etc. If better gear makes you more powerful, who would not want that? Plus there is the status factor. Having better gear makes the hardest content easier to beat, whether that content be a larger dungeon or a 5 man dungeon. Personally I feel that if done right, there should be 5 man dungeons that are just as hard as a raid dungeon, just requiring less people, so the best gear would make the 5 man content easier as well as the 8-10 man content.
After all, the best gear shouldn't exist only to help you raid. Besides, we've been using the term "raid" to simply mean a dungeon for more people than 5, why would getting better gear only apply to running a dungeon with 3 to 5 more people than the standard amount?
First off, you put 5 as an option for the raiding number people want, then "flame" someone for posting they want a 5 man raid by saying 5 players is not a raid. Second, where in my post did I ever say all raiders want WoW on a stick? You're too busy editing every post you place in here to pay full attention to what people are actually saying. This game will do fine in its own right and does not need to do what others have done to make their version of raid content.
I know i contradict myself but i mean that 10 players is great for taking down content on a regular basis. an outdoor server boss is more of a 'calling all guilds' kind of thing and not something you'd do every week.
Ha, I guess I just described what WoW has now. 10 man raid and Sha/Galleon/New ones.
Ability Scores || All Attribute Roll Combinations || My Cleric Stream \o/
PVP, blitzing through dungeons, painting the wall with ACT prints. :rolleyes:
Part 1: NW-DMFKR9RPL http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?427711-Brunnen-des-Lichts-Teil-1
Part 2: NW-DLBTN8W28 http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?444281-Brunnen-des-Lichts-Teil-2
Icewind Dale campaign Osthafen sehen & sterben (German)
NW-DMC3IOWAE http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?477201-Osthafen-sehen-amp-sterben
exactly this.
Whats the point of leveling up in the first place if not to feel powerful?!
First of all.
1. Yes WOW was very good I played WOW for many years... however I have seen it all of WOW... I want a new World to explore etc. and Foundry will give me things to explore even though Neverwinter is very instanced game, but so be it though I hope they make open world also bigger.
2. I payed 500 euro+ for WOW. Yes I work and I have money, but I have have a lot debt right now from that I buyed my second home. That means I would like very much play a FREE game for years thank you. Yes I own something but right now I do not feel rich.
3. It is not only me. One of my best friends has no work right now... he also want to play a FREE game.
4. Raids is not the only thing that I like. I played Baldurs Gate 1,2 and Neverwinter Nights 1, 2 and I like Dungeons and Dragons world and I also like PvP.
Finally I also like Foundry. However I will not lie to you. Yes I want that Raids will give the best items. However some ok/good items also you can get from Foundry, PvP etc.
That saying we do not know how hardcore this game will be with items. If you want to a game that will have no raids then you can play Guild Wars 2. Neverwinter will be more hardcore then Guild Wars 2 95 % sure of that but to say that Neverwinter is even near as hardcore as WOW in items system has not been proved. I think Guild War 2 has HAMSTER PvE, but those who want only a game with no raids(10+) can go and play Guild Wars 2.
Guild wars 2 does pve pretty good albeit messy and poorly structured. It punishes you for out leveling a zone by scaling you down, has no end game to speak of and relies way too much on a carebear attitude of players. Poorly developed and rushed.
Neverwinter to me seems like a casual take on the WoW formula, not taking itself too seriously but also allowing for the option of catering to the 'hardcore'. As long as I can go solo my share of dungeons to run around in crappy vendor trash gear or just flex my e-muscles and then jump in raids/5 man heroics i'm more than happy. That's more than I can say GW2 offered
I agree the open world would be nice instead of instanced, only time will tell ;D
I have quoted you saying "wow on a stick" below. You may not have said "all raiders" want wow on a stick, but that wasn't the point, the point was that you assume the person you were replying to just wants a wow clone and that assumption isn't even logical. But my main point is that I'd like to keep this conversation civil without making assumptions, calling people names, or flaming.
But on the other hand I think we agree in general that this game will be successful in it's own right, not by copying other games (especially wow, ugh) but by doing things in it's own unique way. I wish more game developers would do that.
I agree, I think there are many ways it can be done, but they just need to make sure they are true to D&D, create a unique gameplay experience, and do not simply copy games like wow. Those points, plus simply having harder, larger content for more players than the standard 5 are the most important aspects to me.
Thank you.
Thank you too.
100% Agree with both of you (Elewyndyl and Thevlaka) on all points. I played GW2 as well as it was as everyone said it would be: really fun questing while leveling, but with no endgame at all, the game suffers. I just plain and simply got bored as so many other people did.
That game would be awesome if they would create better dungeons and add raid dungeons that were better suited to the actual classes and roles a party had. But as it is now with the "dungeons" it does have, roles are basically meaningless, which to me really tends to dumb down a game. Roles and classes should be of at least some importance. That's why I hope they make the healer class a bit more significant in NW than it is now. People want to feel like they are contributing as much as they can to a group, that's what makes running dungeons and raids fun, at least IMO.
If roles are significant to a party, if content is challenging enough, if there exists larger group content such as raids, if they make the maps more open-world and less tunnel shaped, and questing / leveling less linear, and if they can pull this off without just being another wow clone, then in my book this will be a fun game and most likely be very successful as well.
Another thing you have to think about is this is a F2P game it might not have the money to develop both raids and dungeons at the same time, so one would have to be put on the back burner, so the other can be developed. So who should suffer and not get any updates the people who want raids or the people who want five man dungeons? WOW stopped putting out any new dungeons except at the beginning of an expansion, because it was too much to put out Dungeons, Raids and there story arcs (sorry forgot the name). With one type of end game it is so much easier to put out content, then to try and put out content to please everyone.
Now I do have to say this, this is post it not meant to upset or aggravate anyone this is my opinion and how I feel about the game. I understand a few people will disagree with me, but I know a few people don’t. Here’s to me hoping that they can do it all if that is what they want to try.
Disagree completely. If a 5 character Dungeon is designed right, you will not survive unless you have the best gear commensurate with your level. That was the way it was in PnP games, and the way it should be in a CMMORPG.
I would argue the opposite. When you can have 20 players in a Raid, no one needs to have the best gear to defeat the Boss. You have sheer numbers to your advantage.
I like to use the "Kobold Analogy". Given enough Kobolds, even the greatest Hero (Read: Boss) can be taken down. Natural 20's always hit. So, 20 Kobolds will his on average once a round. 200 will hit 10 times a rounds. 2000 will hit 100 times a round. Kobolds prefer missile weapons with range, so enough of them firing at the same target will take down anything.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
But in the end people expecting the best loot commng from raids will be very
I played WOW, I have no issues admitting that like some ). I led raids and I also did server first single group hard mode achievements. Both were fun. But hands down the 5 man even at its most difficult levels was still in easier. Long term for me raids were more rewarding. Probably because that was where I met and interacted with the most people.
What I didn't like about WOW was arena PVP. I felt it was too small at 2-5 players. Sometimes BIS weapons were the Arena gear weapon. Amazingly I suffered no permanent damage from just using another weapon gotten from something I enjoyed.
Those who are against it, get over it. Time and time again it has been shown and proven that games with no end game content of any kind, shape or form fail to keep people interested and playing the game which only further makes it harder for the non-raiders to get stuff done in the form of small group content when raiders run quests, dungeons and dailies.
MMORPG's are a circle of life, we all feed each other. Take one away, the other fails.
Thats fine and you are welcome to your out-of-context opinion, however, answer this for me.
Whats the difference between someone who plays for 10 hours a week and takes 8 months to obtain said gear versus someone who plays 40 hours a week and obtains said gear in 2 months?
I did. We got as many as 20 players to go raid dungeons playing tabletop. I hear at the conventions the groups get crazy huge.
Err, umm, a Good Game can have excellent End Game content that is not for a RAID. The previous Neverwinter games and Shattered Scrolls series had excellent End Game Content for individuals and small parties.
Blaming poor adventure design, as your argument does, for poor end of game content is a cop out. Great End of Game content could easily be 5 character party or RAID.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
Again, just because some people don't have a lot of time to invest doesn't mean everyone is in the same boat, and if the same loot is attainable by other means, then that solves this issue. I explained this in my OP as a solution for people with less time. Also, I believe it is possible to implement raids that don't require as much of a time investment as well. Again, I believe a well designed MMORPG should have options and many different play styles for many different types of gamers, as long as one play style is not mutually exclusive in terms of character progression.