My Rogue's damage went down quite a bit... But that may have been due to some abilities being moved around... Guess I have to get him to 45 before I get my old build back.
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csileMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited April 2013
Im glad there is difference betwen the classes. It gets so borring when every class basicly do the same dmg ect.
We've isolated some issues with the Trickster Rogue being overpowered in specific cases, and are making changes to certain powers. Thanks for all of your feedback!
fruit of the whine
as it seems to work, let me whine as well and hope enough trickster rogue's whine with me for an anti nerf. i am no fan of whining but as fruit seems to grow on trees that make the most noise...'nough said
i dont understand why people always call for a nerf instead of asking to upgrade their own class ?
instead of toning down a class reassess other classes performance and scale them towards the trickster rogue which is a the best performing class (class dynamics), the most fun and the least clunky class in pve imo.
pvp and pve scaling/adjusting should absolutely remain separate.
it now feels like you are covering up the bad character mechanics that the other classes suffer from by toning down a perfectly fun experience that is or maybe was the trickster rogue...
also enlighten me , beta trickster rogue's are asking to nerf their class... (people that actually intend to play this class on release) ? instead of looking at the other classes and say, man you sure could use some love on your class i am having way more fun then you do ? very dubious, very doubtful ..
Class balancing is an important issue and it is best to clear it up during betas so that the release is clean. As these characters will be wiped, we can afford t test them. Open beta characters will not b wiped and any effect of imbalance in class would lead to unfair situation in which some players would find level curve much less steep than others.
Hence this is positive feedback for the betterment and balancing of game. Those who do not care about class balancing need not care about it right now either. Most fun class to play is control wizard anyways - weak or powerful does not matters.
I see your Controll Wizard and raise one Devoted Cleric. I have been spending today leasureing around in my brand new DC, and may i tell tou it is AWESOME! I've also played TR earlier, gave him a spin aswell now during beta, i didn't notice that big of a difference. He's still powerfull as hell and can solo most obstacles you find at lvl 30~ish without breaking a sweat
i don't think way overpowered because once you get to the higher levels if you don't watch what you are doing you can easily get smooshed into the ground. especially right near the wolf den if you accidently get 2 groups with 2 wolfmasters its very hard to recover as a rogue from that. You have to do alot of kiting with your throwing knives (if you took that skill) to stay alive, but depending on where you put your points in a group. You become a **** beast especially when you are playing off advantages and stealth so yes it seems like they are op, but its all about positioning.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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xantrisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I played control wizard, GWF, and rogue all to level 20+ this weekend.
Rogue is by far the strongest DPS class right now, without question... Leveling was infinitely easier and faster on my rogue. I thinK i was level 5 and finished with the first zone and first instance with only 7 minutes played... It was ridiculous... I made a separate thread about this but to sum balance up right now:
Rogue's damage is too high and its survivabiltiy is actually arguably better than Control Wizard or GWF. I would say GWF has slightly more survivability and CW has slightly less. Damage output on the rogue, however, is without a doubt higher than GWF and CW. Bait and switch provides A TON of survivability particularly at lower levels, and once you get stealth you become virtually unkillable. This doesn't change at higher levels according to the higher level rogues I've talked to. Stealth is just extremely strong and with the right abilities can be maintained very easily.
Great weapons fighter should be the standard for balance in my opinion as it felt the most balanced to play. I think rogue really needs a damage reduction on its at will ability.
Control Wizard is the weakest DPS class in my opinion. The raw damage of the CW is the lowest of the three classes and it also has the lowest survivability in my opinion. CW CC is still quite weak, dazing strike is an infinitely better ability than any CC the CW has, the durations are just too low for it to compensate for the low DPS of the class. That said, CW is already a strong PvP class so CC durations should not be increased much in my opinion if at all.
In short these are the changes I think this game needs:
Rogue: Nerf the melee at-will abilities damage by 15% to start with and see how it plays. It's ok for rogues to have high burst from dailies and encounters, I think rogue is supposed to be a bursty class, but the auto attack damage is currently way too high and gives the rogue ridiculous sustained DPS. Couple this with the fact that you can use at-wills while in stealth and you get an insanely strong class.
Control Wizard: Buff damage across the board on all abilities by 15-20% and see how it plays. Keep CC durations more or less where they are at, perhaps some small buffs could be used on some abilities. Nerf the dodge mechanic so that it takes 50% of stamina to blink. CW's can kite melee classes too easily right now because blink can be used I think 4 times before running out of stamina, couple that with the CC and even with multiple gap closers for encounter abilities melee classes won't be able to keep up.
GWF: Keep it the way it is. Possibly reduce the stamina cost of sprinting slightly.
There seems to be a disconnect between dungeon and dragons and the average MMO that people don't seem to be quite understanding. There is no DPS CLASS. Or, if you want to really be stingy, the only "pure" DPS class is STRIKERS. Here is how D&D 4e is organized:
Controller Controllers focus on affecting multiple targets at once, either damaging or debuffing them. Defender Defenders focus on blocking attacking enemies and focusing their attacks on themselves. Leader Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies. Striker Strikers are focused on mobility, dealing heavy damage to single targets and avoiding attacks.
The Trickster (base class Rogue) is a STRIKER class.
The Guardian (base class Fighter) is a DEFENDER class.
The GWF (base class Fighter) is a DEFENDER class. He is NOT a Striker. He is a offensive oriented AoE DEFENDER class.
The Control Wizard (base class Wizard) is a CONTROLLER class.
The Devout Cleric (base class Cleric) is a LEADER.
No DEFENDER, CONTROLLER, or LEADER is going to do near as much damage as a STRIKER. That is not their purpose. They have alternative roles that they do in conjunction with DPS.
besides so many of this posts are complaining about this or that class dominating in pvp, except the game is pve first and pvp by the side.
Absolutely. TR is hitting above its weight though, it 2 shots mobs 3 levels above which makes you spend alot of the time hitting thin air. Only when fighting mobs 4-5 levels higher do you actually find the class playing correctly (being able to finish combos)
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There seems to be a disconnect between dungeon and dragons and the average MMO that people don't seem to be quite understanding. There is no DPS CLASS. Or, if you want to really be stingy, the only "pure" DPS class is STRIKERS. Here is how D&D 4e is organized:
Controller Controllers focus on affecting multiple targets at once, either damaging or debuffing them. Defender Defenders focus on blocking attacking enemies and focusing their attacks on themselves. Leader Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies. Striker Strikers are focused on mobility, dealing heavy damage to single targets and avoiding attacks.
The Trickster (base class Rogue) is a STRIKER class.
The Guardian (base class Fighter) is a DEFENDER class.
The GWF (base class Fighter) is a DEFENDER class. He is NOT a Striker. He is a offensive oriented AoE DEFENDER class.
The Control Wizard (base class Wizard) is a CONTROLLER class.
The Devout Cleric (base class Cleric) is a LEADER.
No DEFENDER, CONTROLLER, or LEADER is going to do near as much damage as a STRIKER. That is not their purpose. They have alternative roles that they do in conjunction with DPS.
In the stream they clearly defined the GWF as a dps class, with DPS comparable to a rogue. You may choose to define it by 4e rules, but this is not a strictly converted game.
In the stream they clearly defined the GWF as a dps class, with DPS comparable to a rogue. You may choose to define it by 4e rules, but this is not a strictly converted game.
Yet, GWF shouldnt do as much damage as TR, they wear heavy armor and have more hp, especially not in ST dmg
I have not seen any indication a GWF has more hp than a TR. They may build that way to keep from dying because they have too. The TR has other mechanics to stay alive via stealth, bait and switch, etc. These are things the GWF doesn't have the luxury of having. Having played both, the TR has more survival. Though it is close when the GWF has his punishing charge available. (an avoidance mechanism.)
i'm wondering how anyone who played the Rogue can suggest they are too squishy or that certain solo situations required that you "move well", or whatever.
I played the Trickster to level 45 and I don't recall a single situation being difficult. If you know how to play, Stealth is available in every fight, with Lurking Assault Daily power providing even more of it (for massively long durations) every second fight.
When I approached boss fights, I tended to have my Daily up. Opening with Lurking Assault + Stealth, using Duelist's Flurry and Deft Strike right before Stealth ends for that guaranteed crit generally killed the boss before it could even hit me once. 5-8 secs, without taking a hit, big boss is on the floor. For those who suggest this class is anything but ultra-overpowered... the only possibility is that you didn't learn well enough how to use the skills they possess.
Loads of fun being that strong, yes, but probably gets boring in the long term. No single player should be able to kill a big boss with their opening combo.... Not when, by comparison, other classes have to play strategy, dodge and evade, use pots etc etc.
(I never once used Bait and Switch. There was never a need for it. Stealth = invincible = mobs explode)
Aside from the terrible assumption that rogue is overpowered due to his DPS being greater than a HEALING class... You are doing it based upon 15 levels of game play.
I play a rogue, I can tell you with complete honesty that he is not overpowered. If I didn't have potions or if potions were weakened or even modified to increase cooldowns I would not be viable for solo play in the least bit past level 45ish. This is where you, the cleric, come into play. I rely on your heals as I absolutely eradicate enemies with little fear of death. Why? Because YOU are a healer and I am the DPS. If I were to apply your logic to a standard party situation we would have a devoted cleric exorcising enemies with your cross and holy water as I threw greater heal potions at your big dumb head.
Please don't make another thread like this.
Sympathy - That trickster that always kills you in PVP
i'm wondering how anyone who played the Rogue can suggest they are too squishy or that certain solo situations required that you "move well", or whatever.
I played the Trickster to level 45 and I don't recall a single situation being difficult. If you know how to play, Stealth is available in every fight, with Lurking Assault Daily power providing even more of it (for massively long durations) every second fight.
When I approached boss fights, I tended to have my Daily up. Opening with Lurking Assault + Stealth, using Duelist's Flurry and Deft Strike right before Stealth ends for that guaranteed crit generally killed the boss before it could even hit me once. 5-8 secs, without taking a hit, big boss is on the floor. For those who suggest this class is anything but ultra-overpowered... the only possibility is that you didn't learn well enough how to use the skills they possess.
Loads of fun being that strong, yes, but probably gets boring in the long term. No single player should be able to kill a big boss with their opening combo.... Not when, by comparison, other classes have to play strategy, dodge and evade, use pots etc etc.
(I never once used Bait and Switch. There was never a need for it. Stealth = invincible = mobs explode)
I do not believe a word of what you are saying. There is no feasible way that you were able to kill any "Big Boss" with a single opening combo, or anywhere close to 8 seconds. The only way this would be possible is if you were doing foundry or playing content below your level. Using astral diamond gear and tier 4/5 enchantments and Cat pet I could MAYBE down a boss in a solo set instance in 30 to 45 seconds IF i consumed potions and ignored the adds as I was having my *** beaten down.
EDIT
This goes without mentioning party instanced dungeons where if you have ONE weak link you will not down the end boss. Once again what you are saying is ludicrous.
Sympathy - That trickster that always kills you in PVP
I do not believe a word of what you are saying. There is no feasible way that you were able to kill any "Big Boss" with a single opening combo, or anywhere close to 8 seconds. The only way this would be possible is if you were doing foundry or playing content below your level. Using astral diamond gear and tier 4/5 enchantments and Cat pet I could MAYBE down a boss in a solo set instance in 30 to 45 seconds IF i consumed potions and ignored the adds as I was having my *** beaten down.
Then I suggest to you that, provided the Rogue is not nerfed before next Beta, that you try the strategy I outlined. The MAJORITY of end bosses I fought died with my first Deft Strike, at the end of my stealth, after dumping Duelist's Flurry into its kidneys once, twice or three times. By opening combo, I mean that combo I defined. Lurker's Assault + Stealth, Duelist's Flurry until last second of stealth when you dump the Deft Strike on them (if they survive that long.) I cannot recall a specific boss who survived that Deft Strike.
Why in the world would I lie about this....?
Perhaps other TR players can comment on this ridiculously overpowered combination, if you really doubt me?
For clarity, I am not talking about Foundry content and I certainly did not twink my toon. Ask around, I was not the only TR dropping end bosses (in solo dungeons) with Lurking + Stealth.
I have no reason to lie. I found the experience completely lacking any challenge, compared to my time spent as a GWF or CW. Ludicrous DPS.
Then I suggest to you that, provided the Rogue is not nerfed before next Beta, that you try the strategy I outlined. The MAJORITY of end bosses I fought died with my first Deft Strike, at the end of my stealth, after dumping Duelist's Flurry into its kidneys once, twice or three times. By opening combo, I mean that combo I defined. Lurker's Assault + Stealth, Duelist's Flurry until last second of stealth when you dump the Deft Strike on them (if they survive that long.) I cannot recall a specific boss who survived that Deft Strike.
Why in the world would I lie about this....?
Perhaps other TR players can comment on this ridiculously overpowered combination, if you really doubt me?
What is far more likely is that we have different definitions of what a "Big boss" is. I do not consider small instanced quests to be "Big bosses" . These bosses are intended to be owned in such fashion. But there is NO way you were able to do something of this nature on any boss in the later levels which required you to Queue for the dungeon. (Or even skirmish bosses for that matter.)
The class is not overpowered. The developers have already stated on this forum numerous times that they play and test all characters "In house" and find that they, as developers can not stick to a single character and are often prone to different "Flavors of the week, month.. Etc."
In closing- If those who develop the characters are telling us "They aren't overpowered" then the class isn't overpowered. Seeing as we haven't had access to even 50% of the content I am hard pressed to even make the slightest of judgement on any class balancing. Lets at least wait until we can see what happens at level 60.
Sympathy - That trickster that always kills you in PVP
Then I should have been more specific. I wrongly assumed it would be obvious I am referring to solo content, since the nature of it is so different to dungeons where mobs are scaled for 5 players.
I am talking about cut-scene introduced end bosses in solo content. Where my GWF or CW had to dance around to kill it in a few minutes, my rogue dropped it in the time it took for the stealth meter to run out during a Lurking Assault. That is stupidly over-powered.
I really don't care what the developers say... I am a gamer; all I can do is relay my experience. There was not a single challenge presented to me in any of the solo content, and it carries into the dungeon instances, too. When i'm getting 850k DPS compared to next highest of 250-400k, it just seems a bit excessive.
To each their own. LA was already nerf'd this patch. As was gloaming strike and the entire class via the powers update.
I think enough is enough. It does damage because it's supposed to. In any non solo situation it is simply impossible to survive without the use of potion spam or a good party; Because of that fact I feel the class is balanced. Balancing does not apply to solo situations. If you choose to avoid interaction and solo than you shouldn't compare that solo experience to the solo experience of another class.
Sympathy - That trickster that always kills you in PVP
Why should I not compare solo to solo? Granted that the TR was the only Striker, I do not believe the DPS disparity between strikers and offensively orriented Defenders (GWF) or AOE Controllers should be as great as it is. And it is GREAT. I did not buy a single potion on my rogue, compared to hundreds bought on the CW or GWF. Even in full party dungeons, I just didn't take much damage. Stealth is too great of a crutch, and most things that I decided to hit would die before I could take the threat.
I am strongly of the opinion that anyone who disagrees concretely that this class is over-powered was perhaps not playing it optimally. I am not even suggesting any specific nerf or degree of nerf - all i'm doing is sharing my experience. A stack of 99+ potions because I rarely used them, most things dying as soon as I decide they should, and ever-available stealth + LA making you INVINCIBLE for the duration.
I had a lot of fun with the TR; I intend to make another when I can.... but I will not lie about how ****ing easy it is - I will probably get sick of it very quickly.
Comments
Decided to level one up to compare. Light years ahead of GWF and GF currently. Going to try to hit at least 40.
Wait till you see 50+% of the population playing TR, it will be SWTOR all over again.
fruit of the whine
as it seems to work, let me whine as well and hope enough trickster rogue's whine with me for an anti nerf. i am no fan of whining but as fruit seems to grow on trees that make the most noise...'nough said
i dont understand why people always call for a nerf instead of asking to upgrade their own class ?
instead of toning down a class reassess other classes performance and scale them towards the trickster rogue which is a the best performing class (class dynamics), the most fun and the least clunky class in pve imo.
pvp and pve scaling/adjusting should absolutely remain separate.
it now feels like you are covering up the bad character mechanics that the other classes suffer from by toning down a perfectly fun experience that is or maybe was the trickster rogue...
also enlighten me , beta trickster rogue's are asking to nerf their class... (people that actually intend to play this class on release) ? instead of looking at the other classes and say, man you sure could use some love on your class i am having way more fun then you do ? very dubious, very doubtful ..
anyways let the anti whine festivities begin
Hence this is positive feedback for the betterment and balancing of game. Those who do not care about class balancing need not care about it right now either. Most fun class to play is control wizard anyways - weak or powerful does not matters.
There seems to be a disconnect between dungeon and dragons and the average MMO that people don't seem to be quite understanding. There is no DPS CLASS. Or, if you want to really be stingy, the only "pure" DPS class is STRIKERS. Here is how D&D 4e is organized:
Controller Controllers focus on affecting multiple targets at once, either damaging or debuffing them.
Defender Defenders focus on blocking attacking enemies and focusing their attacks on themselves.
Leader Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies.
Striker Strikers are focused on mobility, dealing heavy damage to single targets and avoiding attacks.
The Trickster (base class Rogue) is a STRIKER class.
The Guardian (base class Fighter) is a DEFENDER class.
The GWF (base class Fighter) is a DEFENDER class. He is NOT a Striker. He is a offensive oriented AoE DEFENDER class.
The Control Wizard (base class Wizard) is a CONTROLLER class.
The Devout Cleric (base class Cleric) is a LEADER.
No DEFENDER, CONTROLLER, or LEADER is going to do near as much damage as a STRIKER. That is not their purpose. They have alternative roles that they do in conjunction with DPS.
Absolutely. TR is hitting above its weight though, it 2 shots mobs 3 levels above which makes you spend alot of the time hitting thin air. Only when fighting mobs 4-5 levels higher do you actually find the class playing correctly (being able to finish combos)
In the stream they clearly defined the GWF as a dps class, with DPS comparable to a rogue. You may choose to define it by 4e rules, but this is not a strictly converted game.
Agreed. Neverwinter online. Not really 4e.
GWF does not do anywhere near the damage of TR. I don't necessarily feel the TR is doing too much damage but the GWF might be doing too little.
Extinction - GWF
I have not seen any indication a GWF has more hp than a TR. They may build that way to keep from dying because they have too. The TR has other mechanics to stay alive via stealth, bait and switch, etc. These are things the GWF doesn't have the luxury of having. Having played both, the TR has more survival. Though it is close when the GWF has his punishing charge available. (an avoidance mechanism.)
I played the Trickster to level 45 and I don't recall a single situation being difficult. If you know how to play, Stealth is available in every fight, with Lurking Assault Daily power providing even more of it (for massively long durations) every second fight.
When I approached boss fights, I tended to have my Daily up. Opening with Lurking Assault + Stealth, using Duelist's Flurry and Deft Strike right before Stealth ends for that guaranteed crit generally killed the boss before it could even hit me once. 5-8 secs, without taking a hit, big boss is on the floor. For those who suggest this class is anything but ultra-overpowered... the only possibility is that you didn't learn well enough how to use the skills they possess.
Loads of fun being that strong, yes, but probably gets boring in the long term. No single player should be able to kill a big boss with their opening combo.... Not when, by comparison, other classes have to play strategy, dodge and evade, use pots etc etc.
(I never once used Bait and Switch. There was never a need for it. Stealth = invincible = mobs explode)
I play a rogue, I can tell you with complete honesty that he is not overpowered. If I didn't have potions or if potions were weakened or even modified to increase cooldowns I would not be viable for solo play in the least bit past level 45ish. This is where you, the cleric, come into play. I rely on your heals as I absolutely eradicate enemies with little fear of death. Why? Because YOU are a healer and I am the DPS. If I were to apply your logic to a standard party situation we would have a devoted cleric exorcising enemies with your cross and holy water as I threw greater heal potions at your big dumb head.
Please don't make another thread like this.
I do not believe a word of what you are saying. There is no feasible way that you were able to kill any "Big Boss" with a single opening combo, or anywhere close to 8 seconds. The only way this would be possible is if you were doing foundry or playing content below your level. Using astral diamond gear and tier 4/5 enchantments and Cat pet I could MAYBE down a boss in a solo set instance in 30 to 45 seconds IF i consumed potions and ignored the adds as I was having my *** beaten down.
EDIT
This goes without mentioning party instanced dungeons where if you have ONE weak link you will not down the end boss. Once again what you are saying is ludicrous.
Then I suggest to you that, provided the Rogue is not nerfed before next Beta, that you try the strategy I outlined. The MAJORITY of end bosses I fought died with my first Deft Strike, at the end of my stealth, after dumping Duelist's Flurry into its kidneys once, twice or three times. By opening combo, I mean that combo I defined. Lurker's Assault + Stealth, Duelist's Flurry until last second of stealth when you dump the Deft Strike on them (if they survive that long.) I cannot recall a specific boss who survived that Deft Strike.
Why in the world would I lie about this....?
Perhaps other TR players can comment on this ridiculously overpowered combination, if you really doubt me?
For clarity, I am not talking about Foundry content and I certainly did not twink my toon. Ask around, I was not the only TR dropping end bosses (in solo dungeons) with Lurking + Stealth.
I have no reason to lie. I found the experience completely lacking any challenge, compared to my time spent as a GWF or CW. Ludicrous DPS.
What is far more likely is that we have different definitions of what a "Big boss" is. I do not consider small instanced quests to be "Big bosses" . These bosses are intended to be owned in such fashion. But there is NO way you were able to do something of this nature on any boss in the later levels which required you to Queue for the dungeon. (Or even skirmish bosses for that matter.)
The class is not overpowered. The developers have already stated on this forum numerous times that they play and test all characters "In house" and find that they, as developers can not stick to a single character and are often prone to different "Flavors of the week, month.. Etc."
In closing- If those who develop the characters are telling us "They aren't overpowered" then the class isn't overpowered. Seeing as we haven't had access to even 50% of the content I am hard pressed to even make the slightest of judgement on any class balancing. Lets at least wait until we can see what happens at level 60.
I am talking about cut-scene introduced end bosses in solo content. Where my GWF or CW had to dance around to kill it in a few minutes, my rogue dropped it in the time it took for the stealth meter to run out during a Lurking Assault. That is stupidly over-powered.
I really don't care what the developers say... I am a gamer; all I can do is relay my experience. There was not a single challenge presented to me in any of the solo content, and it carries into the dungeon instances, too. When i'm getting 850k DPS compared to next highest of 250-400k, it just seems a bit excessive.
I think enough is enough. It does damage because it's supposed to. In any non solo situation it is simply impossible to survive without the use of potion spam or a good party; Because of that fact I feel the class is balanced. Balancing does not apply to solo situations. If you choose to avoid interaction and solo than you shouldn't compare that solo experience to the solo experience of another class.
I am strongly of the opinion that anyone who disagrees concretely that this class is over-powered was perhaps not playing it optimally. I am not even suggesting any specific nerf or degree of nerf - all i'm doing is sharing my experience. A stack of 99+ potions because I rarely used them, most things dying as soon as I decide they should, and ever-available stealth + LA making you INVINCIBLE for the duration.
I had a lot of fun with the TR; I intend to make another when I can.... but I will not lie about how ****ing easy it is - I will probably get sick of it very quickly.