Tacc has a point, most of the whiners are basing their experience from pvp , especialy the bad players who do not take the time to learn their classes and learn how to counter a rogue.They also forget that having a correct set up in pvp makes alot of difference , CC a rogue and see how much damage he does!!The solution is not nerfing a class that was working correctly and doing exactly what a striker is suppose to do , the solution is making people aware that this game is D&D based , that each class has primary roles attributed , there are more classes they are working on, its just a question of waiting , iether that or if you like doing dps then roll a Trickster Rogue or a Great Weapon Fighter, just dont expect a healer to out dps a pure dps class!!
besides in pvp CW rolls over everything, rogue just so happen to be the best CW counter due to being able to sneak on them but that doesn't mean they can roll over a GF or GWF...
Exactly Adozu , there are no super men in pvp , many players spoil their natural defenses by triying to play with attributes of a glass cannon when their class will not support it , hence they are playing bad and not making correct use of their abilities , a rogue does high single target dps , yes, but he will only do so much more if your team lets him , force him out of stealth , freeze him stun him etc etc etc , see how effective he will be then, and consider too that he will not resist to half the damage the other classes can.Its a question of taking the trouble to learn about other classes that makes a difference in PvP , skill doesent fall from the sky , nor from a devs hands nerfing a class!!
besides in pvp CW rolls over everything, rogue just so happen to be the best CW counter due to being able to sneak on them but that doesn't mean they can roll over a GF or GWF...
^
I'm not even good at pvp or like it, but the couple times I tried it I could actively block any attack a rogue threw at me and retaliate with my own attacks. Hell I've gotten the jump on them with my own encounter powers. Most of the time I just had trouble figuring out what was going on. PvP's a chaotic mess where everyone wades together until a GWF decides to stomp the ground.
I think the only issue was the survivability of TRs. I had no issue whatsoever with their damage output. It was reasonable. They could just come out unscathed in a 2v1 which was a bit ridiculous.
it's probably a matter of skill level. during beta weekends you will have both players that took part in alpha testing previously and those who only took part to beta. so some players will invariably have many more hours of practice behind them.
in such a scenario it's not impossible for a character to win against 2 with much less experience playing. i'm sure 2v1 on similar skill level will just see the 1 dead no matter the classes involved.
i assure you having played both CW and TR in pvp that CW can survive a lot more punishment than a rogue once the stealth is down. also even if you can't see the rogue a smart player can still nail it with AoE attacks.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited April 2013
Trickster Rogue isn't all that great in PvP if he's by his lonesome, but he works great in unison with any other class (lone CW approaches a couple players, freezes one, then TR pops out of nowhere and slaughters another). For that matter it works the same in PvE, and I'm pretty sure this is by design.
from my experience the rogue in pvp works great in 2 roles:
first is as a CW killer or DC killer during a large fight: 4 or even 5 players per side start engaging on a strategic point and of course both sides have ranged classes in the back that are tough to take down. a rogue that manages to sneak by the frontline and take quickly down an enemy controller in the backlines before the enemy reacts can mean the difference between winning and losing that engagement
the other role i found my TR doing great is hunting down enemy players that are alone, not because rogue is "awesome" in 1vs1 or anything but because these players often seem to be taking a beeline to a tower to distract the enemy team. it's fairly easy to predict where their camera is facing and sneak on them when they don't expect an attack. surprise factor is what wins you those fights rather than class OPness.
I think the only issue was the survivability of TRs. I had no issue whatsoever with their damage output. It was reasonable. They could just come out unscathed in a 2v1 which was a bit ridiculous.
This!!! this is what I have stated several times is various threads. Well, this and also ppl need to learn to kill them using the class they chose. Kite the TR, make the TR burn their cooldowns before you use yours then you have a BIG chance of winning...dont try fighting toe 2 toe, you will lose.
CW can easily outrun a rogue by teleporting and stall their stealth out anyway if they saw them coming. even a stealthed rogue isn't 100% invisible and you might just notice them before they engage stealth. an unstealthed rogue running up to a CW is just tired of living.
i think my sweetest time ever as a CW in pvp was notice a rogue stealth and run towards me only for me to unleash the ice storm daily a few moments later. what do you know the rogue came out of stealth while flying several feet away and promptly died after the application of a couple more attacks. this was 1vs1.
CW is still what you need to look out for in pvp, really. only possibly better cw counter than rogue in pvp is another cw. unstoppable GWF also pack a punch and are immune to control effects but loading unstoppable requires you to get damaged which isn't really doing good for you in pvp.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
CW is still what you need to look out for in pvp, really. only possibly better cw counter than rogue in pvp is another cw. unstoppable GWF also pack a punch and are immune to control effects but loading unstoppable requires you to get damaged which isn't really doing good for you in pvp.
I do agree CW is the strongest class, but not by itself. Meaning, the more CWs you have on a team, the stronger they become. I played one game with three CW opponents and it was simply brutal. My personal belief is that at max rank GFs are going to be really strong.
Finally theres some people posting sense instead of chanting for the nerfhammer .I think its more a case of people learning how to counter TR. Using movement is a good start. I killed bad CW and Clerics, but got owned by good clerics and cw, heck me and a friend also playing TR couldnt take down one really good cleric 2v1
Really though, Rogue wasn't that survivable 30+ and damage wasn't really OP, I was absolutely destroying groups 3 times as fast with my GWF. If anything the other classes (Cleric and Wiz) should have been made more powerful. Rogue was fun as it was....god I hope it isn't ruined...
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bejita231Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited April 2013
dont be fools, we all know rogue was way to OP in pve and PVP, all other classes could not even solo at higher levels because they have low survivability and low damage, whill rogue has high damage AND high survivability? give me a break, im really glad cryptic has changed and make these changes during beta, as that is what beta's are for, the 14 page thread basically proves the rogues were overpowered and 14 pages of people whining about their class being fixed
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bejita231Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
besides in pvp CW rolls over everything, rogue just so happen to be the best CW counter due to being able to sneak on them but that doesn't mean they can roll over a GF or GWF...
no, rogue is not a counter to CW, it is simply overpowered and countered everyone, and yes they did destroy GWF's and even GF's
dont be fools, we all know rogue was way to OP in pve and PVP, all other classes could not even solo at higher levels because they have low survivability and low damage
So basically, since cryptic said they wanted players to be able to solo the content, you're saying that all other classes were severely underpowered, not that the rogue was OP. Fool.
Cryptic must have agreed, they talked about the gap between DC and TR being closed in the live feed tonight. Dunno if cleric got a buff or the rogue a nerf or a little of both, but it is good. Any time 57% of players polled are going to play one class you need to incentive to others in some way.
Why don't they try and find out what ppl enjoyed about the rogue and make the other classes more appealing instead of whipping out the nerf bat first thing?
"Dear lord! This class is too fun to play, fix it quick!"
So basically, since cryptic said they wanted players to be able to solo the content, you're saying that all other classes were severely underpowered, not that the rogue was OP. Fool.
those classes ARE underpowered and cant solo well or even at all if you run out of gold and potions, rogues WAS OP and got nerfed, please learn to read, buff all other classes and nerf rogues is what cryptic needs to be doing right now
Well they could just buff all other classes and leave rogues alone and then buff the monster difficulty too. But oh wait, it would be a lot better to just adjust the one than adjust everything else. This is a MMO, classes get balanced all the time, furthermore this is an MMO in beta. For people to be upset before they even play this weekend would be silly.
I also think rogues were OP. The problems I had with them were mainly with a few powers. Duelists Flurry doing more damage for more adds. It made do controller like damage, to one target, but I think the scaling on it just gets a bit out of hand. Stealth is pretty cool, I am not sure I want them to mess with that. But the fact that you can follow it up with a stun and then a bait and switch made their damage avoidance silly stupid good. Better than a Guardian fighter, and that should never happen. I am not really sure how they could approach that, but IMO they should be somewhere in between the cleric and wizard in survival abilities. Maybe equal to a cleric, minus the heals, but they should never surpass a plate wearing defender class in damage mitigation or avoidance. Well other than the utility dodge movement thingo. But everyone has that.
I am betting it was a minor adjustment along them lines. Keep the damage orientation on single target combat, remove some of the survival chain of teleport in, pop stealth, hit lurkers strike once it gets around 1/4 left, daze after stealth run out, bait and switch, oh guess what, stealth will be back up again soon, oh and after that another stun, oh wait I can bait and switch again! The combo never even gets that far because <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is long dead. I killed so many ogres in the tower district, at level, without taking a single hit, in a matter of teleport, stealth, daze, I did not even need lurkers... No other class can do that. Sorry that is OP and seriously needs some sort of fix.
There seem to be two unrelated discussions going on here. How the rogue performs in PvP and how it performs in PvE should not have anything to do with one another. In a game where classes have different roles, their relative performance in single combat with each other is likely to be uneven. If changes meant to keep classes about the same when fighting each other are applied to those classes when they are performing their designated different roles, the most likely result is a mess.
I'm a little baffled why anyone thought PvP in a game inspired by D&D was a good idea in the first place, but please don't let the PvP portion warp the rest of the game.
If the rogue is not properly filling its role as a striker (damage dealer), then by all means adjust.
Not anymore:(. They were perfect before, now they are lacking.
Seems like every class got changed to some extent. GWF got demolished, GF slightly nerfed, and Cleric seems to have gotten buffed, at least from a healing stand point.
Seems like every class got changed to some extent. GWF got demolished, GF slightly nerfed, and Cleric seems to have gotten buffed, at least from a healing stand point.
As bad as healing was in BW3, i'd have to say healing is perfect ATM in BW4.
I ran a pretty challenging dungeon with 1 Cleric and the healing looked very challenging at some moments and in those crazy situations, if the group wasn't mindful of the situation, we would get over run. Healing and healing aggro seems just fine at the moment, though I have yet to group with any TR so I don't really know how much they were nerfed, but it definitely couldn't be as bad as GWF.
I am curious on how bad these TR nerfs seem to be, maybe i'll jump on my rogue and find out, but then I'd have to play around with the new power system and I don't have the willingness for that.
"There are more things in heaven and earth,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
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volcxxxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
After leveling GF to 50, GWF to 50 i am bored of rogue.
It is like easy mode, i am watching tv when i am fighting with mobs. So... easy... and boring...
Feels like this class was designed by different devs than GF and GWF.
*yaaawn....* at least i am doing content 3x faster...
Old "Blood and Sand: Unchained" quest Played more than 100 000 times!
> TRY IT NOW!
Comments
^
I'm not even good at pvp or like it, but the couple times I tried it I could actively block any attack a rogue threw at me and retaliate with my own attacks. Hell I've gotten the jump on them with my own encounter powers. Most of the time I just had trouble figuring out what was going on. PvP's a chaotic mess where everyone wades together until a GWF decides to stomp the ground.
in such a scenario it's not impossible for a character to win against 2 with much less experience playing. i'm sure 2v1 on similar skill level will just see the 1 dead no matter the classes involved.
i assure you having played both CW and TR in pvp that CW can survive a lot more punishment than a rogue once the stealth is down. also even if you can't see the rogue a smart player can still nail it with AoE attacks.
first is as a CW killer or DC killer during a large fight: 4 or even 5 players per side start engaging on a strategic point and of course both sides have ranged classes in the back that are tough to take down. a rogue that manages to sneak by the frontline and take quickly down an enemy controller in the backlines before the enemy reacts can mean the difference between winning and losing that engagement
the other role i found my TR doing great is hunting down enemy players that are alone, not because rogue is "awesome" in 1vs1 or anything but because these players often seem to be taking a beeline to a tower to distract the enemy team. it's fairly easy to predict where their camera is facing and sneak on them when they don't expect an attack. surprise factor is what wins you those fights rather than class OPness.
This!!! this is what I have stated several times is various threads. Well, this and also ppl need to learn to kill them using the class they chose. Kite the TR, make the TR burn their cooldowns before you use yours then you have a BIG chance of winning...dont try fighting toe 2 toe, you will lose.
i think my sweetest time ever as a CW in pvp was notice a rogue stealth and run towards me only for me to unleash the ice storm daily a few moments later. what do you know the rogue came out of stealth while flying several feet away and promptly died after the application of a couple more attacks. this was 1vs1.
CW is still what you need to look out for in pvp, really. only possibly better cw counter than rogue in pvp is another cw. unstoppable GWF also pack a punch and are immune to control effects but loading unstoppable requires you to get damaged which isn't really doing good for you in pvp.
I do agree CW is the strongest class, but not by itself. Meaning, the more CWs you have on a team, the stronger they become. I played one game with three CW opponents and it was simply brutal. My personal belief is that at max rank GFs are going to be really strong.
Really though, Rogue wasn't that survivable 30+ and damage wasn't really OP, I was absolutely destroying groups 3 times as fast with my GWF. If anything the other classes (Cleric and Wiz) should have been made more powerful. Rogue was fun as it was....god I hope it isn't ruined...
no, rogue is not a counter to CW, it is simply overpowered and countered everyone, and yes they did destroy GWF's and even GF's
So basically, since cryptic said they wanted players to be able to solo the content, you're saying that all other classes were severely underpowered, not that the rogue was OP. Fool.
"Dear lord! This class is too fun to play, fix it quick!"
those classes ARE underpowered and cant solo well or even at all if you run out of gold and potions, rogues WAS OP and got nerfed, please learn to read, buff all other classes and nerf rogues is what cryptic needs to be doing right now
I also think rogues were OP. The problems I had with them were mainly with a few powers. Duelists Flurry doing more damage for more adds. It made do controller like damage, to one target, but I think the scaling on it just gets a bit out of hand. Stealth is pretty cool, I am not sure I want them to mess with that. But the fact that you can follow it up with a stun and then a bait and switch made their damage avoidance silly stupid good. Better than a Guardian fighter, and that should never happen. I am not really sure how they could approach that, but IMO they should be somewhere in between the cleric and wizard in survival abilities. Maybe equal to a cleric, minus the heals, but they should never surpass a plate wearing defender class in damage mitigation or avoidance. Well other than the utility dodge movement thingo. But everyone has that.
I am betting it was a minor adjustment along them lines. Keep the damage orientation on single target combat, remove some of the survival chain of teleport in, pop stealth, hit lurkers strike once it gets around 1/4 left, daze after stealth run out, bait and switch, oh guess what, stealth will be back up again soon, oh and after that another stun, oh wait I can bait and switch again! The combo never even gets that far because <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is long dead. I killed so many ogres in the tower district, at level, without taking a single hit, in a matter of teleport, stealth, daze, I did not even need lurkers... No other class can do that. Sorry that is OP and seriously needs some sort of fix.
I'm a little baffled why anyone thought PvP in a game inspired by D&D was a good idea in the first place, but please don't let the PvP portion warp the rest of the game.
If the rogue is not properly filling its role as a striker (damage dealer), then by all means adjust.
However, in PvP, their not better then anyone else.
Seems like every class got changed to some extent. GWF got demolished, GF slightly nerfed, and Cleric seems to have gotten buffed, at least from a healing stand point.
As bad as healing was in BW3, i'd have to say healing is perfect ATM in BW4.
I ran a pretty challenging dungeon with 1 Cleric and the healing looked very challenging at some moments and in those crazy situations, if the group wasn't mindful of the situation, we would get over run. Healing and healing aggro seems just fine at the moment, though I have yet to group with any TR so I don't really know how much they were nerfed, but it definitely couldn't be as bad as GWF.
I am curious on how bad these TR nerfs seem to be, maybe i'll jump on my rogue and find out, but then I'd have to play around with the new power system and I don't have the willingness for that.
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
It is like easy mode, i am watching tv when i am fighting with mobs. So... easy... and boring...
Feels like this class was designed by different devs than GF and GWF.
*yaaawn....* at least i am doing content 3x faster...
Old "Blood and Sand: Unchained" quest
Played more than 100 000 times!
> TRY IT NOW!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ecy4o6JqLc
lol?
Hello? Are you playing Neverwinter or some other game?
seriously...
Old "Blood and Sand: Unchained" quest
Played more than 100 000 times!
> TRY IT NOW!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ecy4o6JqLc