prunetracyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I don't understand why people are still talking here. Feedback was given, the devs agreed, they've made changes, and we can all move on.
The devs have not been specific as to what changes have been made, so there's no need for crying. Yeah, rogues are supposed to do high damage. There's a difference between doing high damage and doing too much damage. There were situations where the rogue did more than their fair share, even as a striker.
Until you have any idea what changes have been made, there's nothing to discuss here. Believe it or not, developers do not blindly follow the voice of the masses. They take feedback and investigate to see if they agree, and make changes (or not) accordingly.
Or I'm wrong and this is all part of their plan to make sure no one plays the rogue. I'm sure that's what they want. /sarcasm
You guys keep saying that. A lot of the people who have posted problems with the Rogue, played to level 20. Level 20 is the beginning of the game. You don't even get your mount until 20. Playing the first 20 levels does not qualify you to make a blanket statement about a character's abilities. 1-20 is getting feet wet and learning mechanics.
TR was powerful at early levels, partially because he is easy to play so people who are not as versed with gaming can jump right in and have fun and have success. My CW could keep up with the TR at higher levels no problem, definitely from 30 and above but maybe even 20s, hard to remember.
DEVS if you are listening, I really hope you do not just start nerfing characters based on opinions from people who didn't play the game through (to higher levels, obviously both weekends had level caps).
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draekusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
No class should be balanced for solo play. This is a D&D group-based game. Like many other games that function in the same way: You need allies to succeed. Solo experiences vary far to greatly to be any kind of scientific mathematical test for what is 'fair' or 'balanced'. The OP rant never dies because most of it's protestors base their argument on emotional and/or specific failure or success rather then a map of the total possible experience capable by each individual class. It's completely irrelevant, really.
All classes are powerful at higher levels. Not to say there aren't challenges, but the game is made to be fun to play. Not so hard as to aggravate people but hard enough to keep people engaged. They have done that.
Nerfing everything is not the answer.
There are other areas that could stand improvement. Time would be better spent on those things.
Yes they are..people in betas run in around in green armor. when people get better gear, theyll mitigate more and rogues will have a hard time.
Ive played mmos before were dps classes were hammered to ground becouse of massive nerfcalling in betas (elementalist in gw2 for example) and then become completly gimped when players get better gear to mitigate them.
Yes they are..people in betas run in around in green armor. when people get better gear, theyll mitigate more and rogues will have a hard time.
Ive played mmos before were dps classes were hammered to ground becouse of massive nerfcalling in betas (elementalist in gw2 for example) and then become completly gimped when players get better gear to mitigate them.
Yes they are..people in betas run in around in green armor. when people get better gear, theyll mitigate more and rogues will have a hard time.
Ive played mmos before were dps classes were hammered to ground becouse of massive nerfcalling in betas (elementalist in gw2 for example) and then become completly gimped when players get better gear to mitigate them.
A little birdy told me that people in Alpha with access to "better gear" are reporting the same issues with rogues.
Anyone defending rogues at this point either plays one and doesn't want to lose their advantage, or has horrible design sense.
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zaketrinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
A little birdy told me that people in Alpha with access to "better gear" are reporting the same issues with rogues.
Anyone defending rogues at this point either plays one and doesn't want to lose their advantage, or has horrible design sense.
or plays table top D&D 4e and understands the role of a striker.
Unless you're in alpha yourself, don't take the word of birds on anything.
People in Alpha are under NDA. They aren't allowed to say if they are participating or not.
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zaketrinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Except this isn't tabletop 4e. It's an MMO, and has PvP elements. To ignore that is bad design.
As I posted earlier, I'm very interested on how PvP plays into a game based on D&D 4e rules. Will the game gravitate towards team play or PVP? I don't know.
One way of balancing PVP and PVE is to have a damage modifier, based on class, applied to characters in the PVP areas. The modifier would go away once the character leaves the PVP area. This concept could balance dps in PVP while maintaining class features in PVE.
As I posted earlier, I'm very interested on how PvP plays into a game based on D&D 4e rules. Will the game gravitate towards team play or PVP? I don't know.
One way of balancing PVP and PVE is to have a damage modifier, based on class, applied to characters in the PVP areas. The modifier would go away once the character leaves the PVP area. This concept could balance dps in PVP while maintaining class features in PVE.
Your thoughts?
Sounds fair to me, PVP has ruined other MMO's because this exact reason.
Be a Leet D00D, can't think of something smart? Always blame the economy.
A little birdy told me that people in Alpha with access to "better gear" are reporting the same issues with rogues.
Anyone defending rogues at this point either plays one and doesn't want to lose their advantage, or has horrible design sense.
For the record, I despise DPSers. They treat me, the tank, like an expendable meatshield that only slows their killing down and lowers their K/D ratio. On multiple occassions I've been told they could do my job, rush into a group like Leeroy, get killed, then blame me for not tanking mobs that were too far away for me to get to. They are dime-a-dozen pricks who only chose that class for big numbers and not teamwork, thinking they're Jesus Christ and capable of doing every role in the game just because they have a bigger number than the rest of us.
And yet I still don't feel they need to be nerfed. They are designed to hit hard at the cost of being squishy. And yes, they ARE squishy. A good TR knows how to place themselves among the mobs to hit at the most opportune angle, all while remaining unseen or deaggroed. Alone they can't do a dungeon because the moment something looks at them funny the tr turns to chunky salsa. They are a high risk/high reward class, which is fitting for a rogue. By being so easy to kill they need high damage and evasion to compensate. From what I've seen PvP is a chaotic mess of people running around until a CW freezes you in place or a GWF runs in and stomps the ground. I don't think a class should be judged on PvP alone, but at the same time I feel PvP in this game's pretty unbalanced and unpolished. If the devs are going to make changes, make changes to PvP balance, not necessarily nerfing rogues because they do more damage than other classes.
As I posted earlier, I'm very interested on how PvP plays into a game based on D&D 4e rules. Will the game gravitate towards team play or PVP? I don't know.
One way of balancing PVP and PVE is to have a damage modifier, based on class, applied to characters in the PVP areas. The modifier would go away once the character leaves the PVP area. This concept could balance dps in PVP while maintaining class features in PVE.
Your thoughts?
That sounds like an interesting idea, and I've seen it done well in the past. Maybe a modification to current skills so there's a PvE version and PvP version of every skill/feat.
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bejita231Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited April 2013
Dont know why ppl are talking about pvp, as this is a pve issue, rogues were trivializing content and making the game to easy, as a rogue player im happy they are making rogues more challenging, they were far to easy and overpowered
Dont know why ppl are talking about pvp, as this is a pve issue, rogues were trivializing content and making the game to easy, as a rogue player im happy they are making rogues more challenging, they were far to easy and overpowered
Because it was also a pvp issue. Rogues were designed with single target striking in mind, so they could absolutely demolish anyone in their path. Equally skilled players of any other class could not compete. There is a reason rogues were at the top of almost eery pvp match. If a rogue didn't lead the game in points, your game didn't have any good rogues in it.
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nimayiaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 19Arc User
edited April 2013
You guys don't understand that we don't have heavy armor, we don't have a giant health pool. We are squishy, that's the price for hitting hard. Being slippery is our way to stay alive. I don't understand why skill cap of others with a specific class should cause such rage. I had lots of games with 2 cw on the other team and i couldn't do ****. I still don't complain. Whenever i could get closer to them and land a dazzle, they'd be dead. It's a game of oportunity and positioning. Not only: " *smashing keyboard*, rogue is too op nerf nerf lolololol"
Sorry, but the truth.
You guys don't understand that we don't have heavy armor, we don't have a giant health pool.
Except rogues have so much damage they make other classes heavy armour and extra health appear to be non existant. Not to mention the speed they tear up classes without that.
Whenever i could get closer to them and land a dazzle, they'd be dead.
That right there is part of the issue. No class should be able to just land one ability and guarantee your death. If you were killed by a control wizard, you got caught out. He lined up his abilities properly, and you didn't know when to retreat (Slippery defences right?). Any rogue worth their salt can crush any other class. There is a reason anyone who PvP'd seriously in the beta knows who R.I.P. is, but no one can really recall any other classes that could defeat them with such ease.
Taking a step back, landing a daze on most classes using a rogue WILL insure death. Not being able to dodge while dazed is one of the biggest culprits. And if you use your stealth correctly and not just on cooldown, you WILL land that daze. No other class has that luxury.
You can move when dazed, dont just stand there like an idiot. It also breaks stealth.
Equal level GWF and Defender will mitigate alot of Rogues damage. CW and Cleric are ranged classes, their supposed to drop fast if attacked in melee. If there werent rogues, who the hell would kill them?
You can move when dazed, dont just stand there like an idiot. It also breaks stealth.
Equal level GWF and Defender will mitigate alot of Rogues damage. CW and Cleric are ranged classes, their supposed to drop fast if attacked in melee. If there werent rogues, who the hell would kill them?
Everyone else. It's not hard to drop a guardian's shield. Hell, just get behind them while they're distracted.
so, I played both a rogue and control wizard in SCB 2 and CB 3. I play thiefs, rogues in all MMOs and single player campaigns when possible, I always have, I just prefer the stealth type character where I can pick pocket and slice someone's throat quickly and without much notice. A rogue should be able to bring a cloth/light armor wearer to near death with 1 blow being the element of surprise, lack of armor and hp. This is what rogues/thiefs/assassins do. What I felt in CB 2 and CB 3 was that they could absorb too much damage before being in a near death situation. The dps dealt by the TR however is how it should be.
Playing my CW, I was top dmg of most my team during PvP games. I also had some rogues attack me (eventually I seemed to be their primary target in every match) but managed to get away, cc, get behind the melee classes and help dps them down. Sure they hit hit me hard but it was 50/50 if we were 1 vs 1 fighting.
It all boils down to knowing your class, the people complaining about the TR being OP simply do not understand the game mechanics and how to play their class/use other classes to help them. I thought they were pretty much bang on for their role, again perhaps reduce their HP or dmg mitigation.
the people complaining about the TR being OP simply do not understand the game mechanics and how to play their class/use other classes to help them.
While this seems to be the number one defense for TRs, it simply isn't true. Case and point, the developers have already agreed that TRs WERE in fact, overpowered. That is why they have been changed. There is a reason Cryptic is making games, and most of you are just playing them. Forum feedback is important, but they don't base their decisions solely on it. They clearly had analytical evidence to support TRs being overpowered, which a lot of us here are trying to point out, and acted accordingly.
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volcxxxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
(PvE)
IF rogue can stay in stealth all the time and dish out damage, it is OP.
And yes, he can do this with proper build, easly, even without much effort.
... but devs admitted in many interviews that Trickster Rogue is their favourite class so this will NOT change. So... deal with this
Old "Blood and Sand: Unchained" quest Played more than 100 000 times!
> TRY IT NOW!
zaketrinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
If a rogue can stay in stealth all the time, then the class is performing as intended for PvE. Converting D&D 4e into a PvP resolution system is the problem. All this talk about OP centers around PvP.
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volcxxxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
If a rogue can stay in stealth all the time, then the class is performing as intended for PvE. Converting D&D 4e into a PvP resolution system is the problem. All this talk about OP centers around PvP.
sorry than, i dont have much knowledge about PvP (post above edited)
Anyway infinite stealth even in PvE is OP, compared to all other classes.
Old "Blood and Sand: Unchained" quest Played more than 100 000 times!
> TRY IT NOW!
Oh great. An awesome game already starting to get destroyed by trying to make PVP "Balanced". Does nobody else remember how dumb it was in WoW when your class that was perfectly fine in PVE got buffed/nerfed/changed and ruined everything for the sake of PVP balance? That was the downfall of WoW imo is when Arena came out and developers were overly concerned with balancing out all the classes for pvp with the end result of every single class being almost exactly the same. Class homogenization is bad mmkay?
Oh great. An awesome game already starting to get destroyed by trying to make PVP "Balanced". Does nobody else remember how dumb it was in WoW when your class that was perfectly fine in PVE got buffed/nerfed/changed and ruined everything for the sake of PVP balance? That was the downfall of WoW imo is when Arena came out and developers were overly concerned with balancing out all the classes for pvp with the end result of every single class being almost exactly the same. Class homogenization is bad mmkay?
Except Cryptic has already said they have no problems changing the way an ability works in PvP and leaving it the same in PvE. So this point is pretty moot.
Blizzard has stated on multiple occasions that they do not want to make changes to just one side unless it's an absolute last resort, because it's "confusing for players", but then they turn around and say they want to keep in complex DR systems because "Mastery of the specifics of PvP is fun". Make up your mind. I just think they are being stubborn.
Bottom line, PvP only issues won't effect PvE, and vice versa.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Oh great. An awesome game already starting to get destroyed by trying to make PVP "Balanced". Does nobody else remember how dumb it was in WoW when your class that was perfectly fine in PVE got buffed/nerfed/changed and ruined everything for the sake of PVP balance? That was the downfall of WoW imo is when Arena came out and developers were overly concerned with balancing out all the classes for pvp with the end result of every single class being almost exactly the same. Class homogenization is bad mmkay?
I guarantee you Cryptic would love to experience this same "downfall" that WoW experienced.
Comments
The devs have not been specific as to what changes have been made, so there's no need for crying. Yeah, rogues are supposed to do high damage. There's a difference between doing high damage and doing too much damage. There were situations where the rogue did more than their fair share, even as a striker.
Until you have any idea what changes have been made, there's nothing to discuss here. Believe it or not, developers do not blindly follow the voice of the masses. They take feedback and investigate to see if they agree, and make changes (or not) accordingly.
Or I'm wrong and this is all part of their plan to make sure no one plays the rogue. I'm sure that's what they want. /sarcasm
TR was powerful at early levels, partially because he is easy to play so people who are not as versed with gaming can jump right in and have fun and have success. My CW could keep up with the TR at higher levels no problem, definitely from 30 and above but maybe even 20s, hard to remember.
DEVS if you are listening, I really hope you do not just start nerfing characters based on opinions from people who didn't play the game through (to higher levels, obviously both weekends had level caps).
Nerfing everything is not the answer.
There are other areas that could stand improvement. Time would be better spent on those things.
Not as powerful as rogues, and that was the problem.
Ive played mmos before were dps classes were hammered to ground becouse of massive nerfcalling in betas (elementalist in gw2 for example) and then become completly gimped when players get better gear to mitigate them.
Yay! A voice of reason:D.
A little birdy told me that people in Alpha with access to "better gear" are reporting the same issues with rogues.
Anyone defending rogues at this point either plays one and doesn't want to lose their advantage, or has horrible design sense.
or plays table top D&D 4e and understands the role of a striker.
Except this isn't tabletop 4e. It's an MMO, and has PvP elements. To ignore that is bad design.
People in Alpha are under NDA. They aren't allowed to say if they are participating or not.
As I posted earlier, I'm very interested on how PvP plays into a game based on D&D 4e rules. Will the game gravitate towards team play or PVP? I don't know.
One way of balancing PVP and PVE is to have a damage modifier, based on class, applied to characters in the PVP areas. The modifier would go away once the character leaves the PVP area. This concept could balance dps in PVP while maintaining class features in PVE.
Your thoughts?
Sounds fair to me, PVP has ruined other MMO's because this exact reason.
For the record, I despise DPSers. They treat me, the tank, like an expendable meatshield that only slows their killing down and lowers their K/D ratio. On multiple occassions I've been told they could do my job, rush into a group like Leeroy, get killed, then blame me for not tanking mobs that were too far away for me to get to. They are dime-a-dozen pricks who only chose that class for big numbers and not teamwork, thinking they're Jesus Christ and capable of doing every role in the game just because they have a bigger number than the rest of us.
And yet I still don't feel they need to be nerfed. They are designed to hit hard at the cost of being squishy. And yes, they ARE squishy. A good TR knows how to place themselves among the mobs to hit at the most opportune angle, all while remaining unseen or deaggroed. Alone they can't do a dungeon because the moment something looks at them funny the tr turns to chunky salsa. They are a high risk/high reward class, which is fitting for a rogue. By being so easy to kill they need high damage and evasion to compensate. From what I've seen PvP is a chaotic mess of people running around until a CW freezes you in place or a GWF runs in and stomps the ground. I don't think a class should be judged on PvP alone, but at the same time I feel PvP in this game's pretty unbalanced and unpolished. If the devs are going to make changes, make changes to PvP balance, not necessarily nerfing rogues because they do more damage than other classes.
That sounds like an interesting idea, and I've seen it done well in the past. Maybe a modification to current skills so there's a PvE version and PvP version of every skill/feat.
Because it was also a pvp issue. Rogues were designed with single target striking in mind, so they could absolutely demolish anyone in their path. Equally skilled players of any other class could not compete. There is a reason rogues were at the top of almost eery pvp match. If a rogue didn't lead the game in points, your game didn't have any good rogues in it.
Sorry, but the truth.
Except rogues have so much damage they make other classes heavy armour and extra health appear to be non existant. Not to mention the speed they tear up classes without that.
That right there is part of the issue. No class should be able to just land one ability and guarantee your death. If you were killed by a control wizard, you got caught out. He lined up his abilities properly, and you didn't know when to retreat (Slippery defences right?). Any rogue worth their salt can crush any other class. There is a reason anyone who PvP'd seriously in the beta knows who R.I.P. is, but no one can really recall any other classes that could defeat them with such ease.
Taking a step back, landing a daze on most classes using a rogue WILL insure death. Not being able to dodge while dazed is one of the biggest culprits. And if you use your stealth correctly and not just on cooldown, you WILL land that daze. No other class has that luxury.
Equal level GWF and Defender will mitigate alot of Rogues damage. CW and Cleric are ranged classes, their supposed to drop fast if attacked in melee. If there werent rogues, who the hell would kill them?
Everyone else. It's not hard to drop a guardian's shield. Hell, just get behind them while they're distracted.
Playing my CW, I was top dmg of most my team during PvP games. I also had some rogues attack me (eventually I seemed to be their primary target in every match) but managed to get away, cc, get behind the melee classes and help dps them down. Sure they hit hit me hard but it was 50/50 if we were 1 vs 1 fighting.
It all boils down to knowing your class, the people complaining about the TR being OP simply do not understand the game mechanics and how to play their class/use other classes to help them. I thought they were pretty much bang on for their role, again perhaps reduce their HP or dmg mitigation.
While this seems to be the number one defense for TRs, it simply isn't true. Case and point, the developers have already agreed that TRs WERE in fact, overpowered. That is why they have been changed. There is a reason Cryptic is making games, and most of you are just playing them. Forum feedback is important, but they don't base their decisions solely on it. They clearly had analytical evidence to support TRs being overpowered, which a lot of us here are trying to point out, and acted accordingly.
IF rogue can stay in stealth all the time and dish out damage, it is OP.
And yes, he can do this with proper build, easly, even without much effort.
... but devs admitted in many interviews that Trickster Rogue is their favourite class so this will NOT change. So... deal with this
Old "Blood and Sand: Unchained" quest
Played more than 100 000 times!
> TRY IT NOW!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ecy4o6JqLc
sorry than, i dont have much knowledge about PvP (post above edited)
Anyway infinite stealth even in PvE is OP, compared to all other classes.
Old "Blood and Sand: Unchained" quest
Played more than 100 000 times!
> TRY IT NOW!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ecy4o6JqLc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r56hQOq52gA
and as i see in this video (recorded by GF) rogues CAN stay most of the pvp time in stealth
"no OP at all"
/sarcasm off
Old "Blood and Sand: Unchained" quest
Played more than 100 000 times!
> TRY IT NOW!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ecy4o6JqLc
Except Cryptic has already said they have no problems changing the way an ability works in PvP and leaving it the same in PvE. So this point is pretty moot.
Blizzard has stated on multiple occasions that they do not want to make changes to just one side unless it's an absolute last resort, because it's "confusing for players", but then they turn around and say they want to keep in complex DR systems because "Mastery of the specifics of PvP is fun". Make up your mind. I just think they are being stubborn.
Bottom line, PvP only issues won't effect PvE, and vice versa.
I guarantee you Cryptic would love to experience this same "downfall" that WoW experienced.