25%-35% is nothing in pvp? by the time i stand there -not really- crippling an opponent i could be dead. best use is still to finish off the last bits of health from a fleeing player. also sustained implies you can sustain it which you can't since you run out of cherges.
The problem is it finishes off way more than the last bits of health from a fleeing player. Rogues shouldn't have access to a ranged at will at all, especially one that can do that much damage in that short of a time frame. It does more damage than the at wills of range only classes.
Outside of this, I think the rogue is fine. They should either eliminate the at will all together or drop the charges and damage.
The problem is it finishes off way more than the last bits of health from a fleeing player. Rogues shouldn't have access to a ranged at will at all, especially one that can do that much damage in that short of a time frame. It does more damage than the at wills of range only classes.
Outside of this, I think the rogue is fine. They should either eliminate the at will all together or drop the charges and damage.
Cloud of Steel is not particularly strong, but it is nice to have for attacking mobs while they are doing an AoE I need to avoid. I don't care if you have been killed in PvP while running away from a rogue. Do not beg Cryptic to take away one of my useful tools to help support my group because you want to win more PvP matches.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Cloud of Steel is not particularly strong, but it is nice to have for attacking mobs while they are doing an AoE I need to avoid. I don't care if you have been killed in PvP while running away from a rogue. Do not beg Cryptic to take away one of my useful tools to help support my group because you want to win more PvP matches.
I used pvp as an example. It shouldn't be in the rogue arsenal for pve either, at least not as strong as it is currently. Rogue is a melee class, why should it do more damage at range than range classes do with their at wills?
Who cares about DPS? he does damage, that's what he does. If you are trying to outdamage the main damage dealer, you are playing your class wrong. Period.
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jamescoskerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Sigh. All this whining and nerfcalling will ruin the game before its even released.
Theres several CW and DC saying the contribute more in groupcontent then a rogue, some CW even outdamage rogues.
I think its more a matter of that many whiners here sucks playing their class.
They should just close down all these feedback threds given by players that barely got above level 10
I love to see a screen shot of this cw out dpsing a tr .
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itdude123Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I remember being outdamaged on my TR around level 30 in one group dungeon encounter where we had a constant stream of adds in the last boss fight of the dungeon. The AEs sum total outpaced the single target damage the TR was able to produce. I also had to dodge out of range of the AOE on the boss since I was too squishy and it would take me down to about 1/4 health so I couldn't always engage in melee either. The ranged axe attack is only really useful if fully charged so you get the building damage bonus.
@dboss777: I would say rogues do about 15% more damage in the dungeon runs I've done, however I think control wizard is a stronger class overall because we bring so much CC and utiltiy on top of our damage. With that said I think that at level 60 wizards will be even closer if not higher than rogues on the damage charts. The build I used was not optimal and I would have changed it if I had enough zen for another respec. On top of that the eye of the storm class feature which unlocks at 50 is immensley powerful and I didn't have it in my dungeon runs, having that maxed will increase our damage A LOT as well as having my optimal spec I think I could come very close to rogues if not higher, but with the build I run I am also significantly debuffing the mitigation of mobs so I end up increasing the damage of my whole party which kind of skews the numbers a bit.
I was doing dungeons with a really skilled rogue the other day and that was the one that did about 15% more damage than me. I did dungeons with another rogue at 50 earlier in the day and literally doubled his damage, generally I think 15% is about where rogues dps will fall given equal skill, and I agree that that margin is arguably too low given the CC and utility that wizards have. Control Wizards should not pull equal dps to rogues... If you want to top the charts every game play a rogue, if you want to play a really fun class that does a lot of damage while having tons of cc and utility, play control wizard. Our CC is far better than a rogues at level 50 so if we did equal damage it would be imbalanced.
That said, at lower levels rogue does more than 15% more damage, and rogue is by far the easiest class to solo and level as, soI understand the sentiment of people feeling it is overpowered, but at level 50 I don't think it is, it is by far the best soloer, but in group play it is pretty balanced in my opinion.
I think they did a very good job balancing classes since BW3, no complains.
You sir like about 80% of these posters did NOT test at all then. GWF damage is just pathetic now. rogue is doing 2times the damage as a CW at least in high levels(3times all others). this above poster is completely full of ^%$# and or simply lieing period.
you simply can not debate the FACT that in 10 seconds the rogue is doing 3500 damage on average and the CW is doing 2k at best. that is a tested FACT. fact= not debateable. That has ZERO to do with playing skills. that IS the number of the abilities of damage done on the same mob per class.
The rogue dps has ZERO to do with player skill. or getting to 10th or 50th or gear . the rogue should do more dps. NO one is saying it should not. but the amount it can do more in the same time period is WAY too much right now. This is for pve and PVP. pvp is worse tho.
TESTING DPS......... oh look a 50th level grunt orc. ok go GF go get the agro so the rogue and CW can get the rear bonuses. OK now CW go in and UNLeash all your hell on it for 30 seconds. timer starts on the first attack.......good good you got it down to 30% life. ok kill it off guys. next.. OK look another 50th grunt orc.. ok GF get agro. ok rogue go in and unleash hell on it for 30 seconds. timer starts on the first attack..... oh dammnn.... 20 seconds it is dead.. weird...
THAT is how you test DPS ( keyword since that is the debate above D P S). If you did not TEST all the classes then your opinion has the value of day ol dung.
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itdude123Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
So do that same test with 5 mobs at once. What are those results like? Can the TR burn down 5 mobs one at a time before the GWF can with his sweeping slashes?
Rogue is single target damage. Don't the other classes have standard encounter AE damage abilities? I only had one at level 40 and it was decent but on a long cool down. (had swords pop up through the floor) and on something like a 20+ second cooldown. TR is great at single target DPS but not so good at multi-target.
So do that same test with 5 mobs at once. What are those results like? Can the TR burn down 5 mobs one at a time before the GWF can with his sweeping slashes?
Rogue is single target damage. Don't the other classes have standard encounter AE damage abilities? I only had one at level 40 and it was decent but on a long cool down. (had swords pop up through the floor) and on something like a 20+ second cooldown. TR is great at single target DPS but not so good at multi-target.
Yes... people are plain ignorant of the rogues skills to say he is all single target. he has splash has multi aoe skills and as of this weekend. yes a rogue can kill all 5 targets before a GWF. (gwf got screwed for bw4 a GF in general does the same of more damage)
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itdude123Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Ahh thanks for the info Ronin. I hope they do indeed give the GWF some love in that case.
Yes... people are plain ignorant of the rogues skills to say he is all single target. he has splash has multi aoe skills and as of this weekend. yes a rogue can kill all 5 targets before a GWF. (gwf got screwed for bw4 a GF in general does the same of more damage)
Blitz: Average damage
Path of the Blade : low damage and pretty much a piece of C@@p
I got not complains about TR. At the end one have to pick a class that work better wit your play style. The Cloud of Steel is not particularly strong, and is the only range attack that TR can use.
Not particularly strong? It is stronger than the at wills of ranged classes. Why does a melee class even have a ranged attack let alone one that is as strong as cloud of steel?
Not particularly strong? It is stronger than the at wills of ranged classes. Why does a melee class even have a ranged attack let alone one that is as strong as cloud of steel?
Cloud of Steel : is low damage and limited charges (12), adding points does not increase charges only a bit of damage (+10%).
But Since you tested the TR, tell me how many more range attacks the TR have?
The TR is not a Tank class, is not a healer or Controller. Is just a DPS class on leather armor. The range attacks is only good when the enemy is doing his red circle, other wise what the TR is going to do... pull a chair and have a cup of Coffee?
What I'm trying to said is that each class have their advantage and disadvantages. A few may not like TR because they get killed by a TR when they are trying to run away. But really if you don't like to die during a PvP match, just don't PvP
Cloud of Steel : is low damage and limited charges (12), adding points does not increase charges only a bit of damage (+10%).
But Since you tested the TR, tell me how many more range attacks the TR have?
The TR is not a Tank class, is not a healer or Controller. Is just a DPS class on leather armor. The range attacks is only good when the enemy is doing his red circle, other wise what the TR is going to do... pull a chair and have a cup of Coffee?
What i'm trying to said is that each class have their uses, a few may not like other class because they get killed by a TR when they are trying to run away. But really if you don't like to die during a PvP match, just don't PvP
They don't need nor should they have any ranged attacks. They are a melee class. For some strange reason they have been given the strongest at will ranged attack available. It just makes no sense.
Honestly, I just flat out got tired of seeing so many TRs running around. Overall I think they are balanced, just having the best at will ranged attack is silly.
Cloud of Steel : is low damage and limited charges (12), adding points does not increase charges only a bit of damage (+10%).
But Since you tested the TR, tell me how many more range attacks the TR have?
The TR is not a Tank class, is not a healer or Controller. Is just a DPS class on leather armor. The range attacks is only good when the enemy is doing his red circle, other wise what the TR is going to do... pull a chair and have a cup of Coffee?
What i'm trying to said is that each class have their uses, a few may not like other class because they get killed by a TR when they are trying to run away. But really if you don't like to die during a PvP match, just don't PvP
the rogues first 3 seconds of attacks kills at least 2 mobs if not partials of the others ( if it is a good smart rogue an lines them up ) then the ropgue attacks fast and kills all 5 in say 8 seconds......... ( that's example) the GWF.. he only gets about 5 attacks off in that same time and hopes he is able to kill them........or heres another example. rogues at will attack hits for 400 and fast... gwf at will hits 3 targets at 180each and attacks half the speed of the rogue..... start to add those numbers up.
oh yeah.. gwf is DPS. plain n simple DPS.( please don't be one of the moronic tards that says the gwf is a tank/controller lolol just stop don't.. really/...) and has NO ranged attack. so....
They don't need nor should they have any ranged attacks. They are a melee class. For some strange reason they have been given the strongest at will ranged attack available. It just makes no sense.
Honestly, I just flat out got tired of seeing so many TRs running around. Overall I think they are balanced, just having the best at will ranged attack is silly.
But the TR can't survive the AoE like a GWF. But this is a game for everybody not just you. If you hate TR so much don't group wit them and get into a guild that don't accept TR's.
the rogues first 3 seconds of attacks kills at least 2 mobs if not partials of the others ( if it is a good smart rogue an lines them up ) then the ropgue attacks fast and kills all 5 in say 8 seconds......... ( that's example) the GWF.. he only gets about 5 attacks off in that same time and hopes he is able to kill them........or heres another example. rogues at will attack hits for 400 and fast... gwf at will hits 3 targets at 180each and attacks half the speed of the rogue..... start to add those numbers up.
oh yeah.. gwf is DPS. plain n simple DPS.( please don't be one of the moronic tards that says the gwf is a tank/controller lolol just stop don't.. really/...) and has NO ranged attack. so....
Really all you guys are telling is how Unhappy wit the GWF, if you guys are so unhappy wit the GWF just give some constructive criticism in the GWF forum.
I wonder what people is going to said when the ranger class come out? That is, if they are planning to bring that class.
But the TR can't survive the AoE like a GWF. But this is a game for everybody not just you. If you hate TR so much don't group wit them and get into a guild that don't accept TR's.
First off, I don't hate TRs, I'm pointing out what I consider to be something that doesn't fit with the class.
Secondly, a dps specced GWF has no real advantage over a TR in terms of survival. Heck, the TRs main stat has aoe resistance compared to the GWF that has dot resistance. And since you seem so keen on what you should do while outside of range due to AOE, what is a GWF going to do? They have zero ranged. Why does the TR get the best at will ranged ability in game?
Anyone who says TR's damage isn't blatantly overpowered is playing one.
Guardians fill the role of tank, so while performing their main job of generating threat to maintain an enemies aggro, they can deal out respectable damage, but no where near that of a TR, that is fine. A Cleric can do dish out a fair amount while providing the only major source of healing support to the group. A Control Wizard can CC some while twisting some damage I guess. GWF basically just chugs potions and wastes a party slot.
But TR's, well there damage is so high that there really isn't a point to bring a CW or GWF when its faster to simply focus fire down enemies than trying to CC or AoE them down. When the sheer amount of raw DPS that one class can pump out trivializes two entire roles, there is a problem.
Quit your lying, you may have been focus fired by an entire group and died quickly, but there is no way in hell you can expect anyone to believe any class can one shot anyone in PvP. This beta weekend all I did was PvP, on my CW and on my TR, and in no way in any match I played see anyone come even close to getting one shotted.
I wish all you whining little babies calling for nerfs to TR, learn to understand class roles and game mechanics before you start trying to ruin this game before it is even released. Hopefully the devs are smart enough to differentiate between the dribble of whiners and common sense and logic from posters giving valid feedback.
Each class has a DIFFERENT role, D&D isn't about class balance, its about the group performing together as one unit to accomplish its goals. If you start trying to balance classes to the point where every class is equal in terms of DPS, then what is the point of even having different classes. I won't disagree that maybe some of the classes aren't fulfilling their role adequately, but I cannot give any weight to that as I have not played all the classes, but people whining that their cleric cannot out DPS a rogue, need to just quit gaming. That argument is as stupid as me crying that my Rogue could not outheal a cleric!
In all the groups I PvP'd with this BW4, I noticed that each class could perform very well at the hands of someone who understood their role. I saw DC that were very good at keeping the group alive, I saw CW that payed attention to the fight and knew when to use what cc to benefit their group taking over a node, I saw GF playing the lead role extremely well helping their group take over a node, I saw GWF and TR that were killing machines. And you know why? Because the players behind those classes understood their roles, and played to the strengths of the class, and didn't sit back and whine that their cleric couldn't out DPS a Rogue.
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darkstarx3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
i wouldn't say nurf the TR down but i would say BUFF the GWF so he is on PAR dmg wise with rogue, rogues stealth gives it 1000x more survival skill then the GWF and a TR can do more dmg at lvl 10 then a GWF can do at lvl 50 ive seen it in videos...
i wouldn't say nurf the TR down but i would say BUFF the GWF so he is on PAR dmg wise with rogue, rogues stealth gives it 1000x more survival skill then the GWF and a TR can do more dmg at lvl 10 then a GWF can do at lvl 50 ive seen it in videos...
To summarize:
A GWF (Fighter/Defender) should be on par with a rogue (Striker) dps wise
Rogues have 1000x more survival skills
A level 10 TR does more damage than a level 50 GWF
Proof = a video I watched
Grass is yellow
Bruenor was a bearded gnome
TR is the ONLY "Striker" class in the game at the moment.
Strikers are supposed to do significantly more damage than other roles per D&D rules.
GWF is a Defender/Striker hybrid. NOT a pure Striker like TR.
CW DC and GF are not Strikers in any form.
Opinions:
Classes are pretty close to balanced. People think TR are OP because they do more damage failing to realize that this is by game design. More striker classes will be added after release and people will calm down.
GWF could possibly use a little tweaking to increase their "Defender" capabilities with more survivability. Perhaps a small dps increase.
CW and DC are performing their intended roles pretty well I believe. CW might be a little too powerful in PVP setting. Perhaps add some form of diminishing return on CC in PVP. Feels like whichever team has more CW's wins based on my experience in BW4 at least.
GF I'm unsure of cause I've never played one and none of my friends have played one past like lvl 10. From the groups I've done they seem to do their job just fine.
If you think all classes should be equal at everything you should go read D&D rules so you understand how its supposed to work. If you still disagree maybe go play a different game and stop crying on the forums.
Lies:
TR are overpowered
GWF suck
DC sucks at healing
CW can't CC long enough
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
TR is the ONLY "Striker" class in the game at the moment.
Strikers are supposed to do significantly more damage than other roles per D&D rules.
GWF is a Defender/Striker hybrid. NOT a pure Striker like TR.
CW DC and GF are not Strikers in any form.
Fact:
Actual PW employees have stated GWF are a massive damage dealer with DPS in line with rogues.
GWF are no where near rogue dps as of BWE4.
Opinion:
TR should not have the strongest at will ranged attack.
Actual PW employees have stated GWF are a massive damage dealer with DPS in line with rogues.
GWF are no where near rogue dps as of BWE4.
Opinion:
TR should not have the strongest at will ranged attack.
Where did they say that? Cause that's not what D&D rules say.
Strongest how? It only has 12 charges then you have to wait for them to refresh. Doesn't seem very strong to me. I'm guessing you never actually played rogue to see that though right? You just got finished off in PVP by a rogue with it and that makes you an expert right? :P
Who should have the strongest ranged at will attack in your opinion of the classes available in game atm. CW? DC? Both absolutely not DPS classes. GWF? Why GWF over TR? Do you see how your argument is flawed? When they release archer ranger if rogue still has the "strongest" at will ranged attack then I'll gladly admit there's an issue.
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itdude123Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Did I miss something in PvP? I only did the starter quest and it was a 5 on 5 run. Are these people complaining about OP TRs running without one in their group possibly? If this is all complaining about one-on-one fights, then don't bring a knife to a gun fight (so to speak)....
Rogues are supposed to do more damage as a striker class. If you want to keep up with DPS, play a striker or wait for new strikers to be released.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Where did they say that? Cause that's not what D&D rules say.
Strongest how? It only has 12 charges then you have to wait for them to refresh. Doesn't seem very strong to me. I'm guessing you never actually played rogue to see that though right? You just got finished off in PVP by a rogue with it and that makes you an expert right? :P
Who should have the strongest ranged at will attack in your opinion of the classes available in game atm. CW? DC? Both absolutely not DPS classes. GWF? Why GWF over TR? Do you see how your argument is flawed? When they release archer ranger if rogue still has the "strongest" at will ranged attack then I'll gladly admit there's an issue.
I would counter and state you must not have played one or at least not effectively. It can unload those charges in 4 seconds and do way more damage than any other ranged at will.
I fully understand a rogue isn't going to use it as the only at will, rogue is a melee class. They will use the melee abilities and when something manages to get range, they will unload with a ton of damage at range.
As to should have the highest ranged at wills, it should absolutely be Harry Potter and Dr. House. Their ranged at wills do considerable less damage than TR melee at wills, as it should be. However they are ranged and TR should not do more than them at ranged. A melee should not have range at all, including the GWF and GF. I'd make an exception for a very low damage ranged pull for tanks with a decent cooldown.
P.S. I forgot to mention my source, it was in the stream they did the day before the last BWE.
TR is the ONLY "Striker" class in the game at the moment.
Strikers are supposed to do significantly more damage than other roles per D&D rules.
GWF is a Defender/Striker hybrid. NOT a pure Striker like TR.
CW DC and GF are not Strikers in any form.
Opinions:
Classes are pretty close to balanced. People think TR are OP because they do more damage failing to realize that this is by game design. More striker classes will be added after release and people will calm down.
GWF could possibly use a little tweaking to increase their "Defender" capabilities with more survivability. Perhaps a small dps increase.
CW and DC are performing their intended roles pretty well I believe. CW might be a little too powerful in PVP setting. Perhaps add some form of diminishing return on CC in PVP. Feels like whichever team has more CW's wins based on my experience in BW4 at least.
GF I'm unsure of cause I've never played one and none of my friends have played one past like lvl 10. From the groups I've done they seem to do their job just fine.
If you think all classes should be equal at everything you should go read D&D rules so you understand how its supposed to work. If you still disagree maybe go play a different game and stop crying on the forums.
Lies:
TR are overpowered
GWF suck
DC sucks at healing
CW can't CC long enough
This, the game shouldn't be "balanced" in the first place but alas they had to add PVP.
Comments
The problem is it finishes off way more than the last bits of health from a fleeing player. Rogues shouldn't have access to a ranged at will at all, especially one that can do that much damage in that short of a time frame. It does more damage than the at wills of range only classes.
Outside of this, I think the rogue is fine. They should either eliminate the at will all together or drop the charges and damage.
Cloud of Steel is not particularly strong, but it is nice to have for attacking mobs while they are doing an AoE I need to avoid. I don't care if you have been killed in PvP while running away from a rogue. Do not beg Cryptic to take away one of my useful tools to help support my group because you want to win more PvP matches.
I used pvp as an example. It shouldn't be in the rogue arsenal for pve either, at least not as strong as it is currently. Rogue is a melee class, why should it do more damage at range than range classes do with their at wills?
Theres several CW and DC saying the contribute more in groupcontent then a rogue, some CW even outdamage rogues.
I think its more a matter of that many whiners here sucks playing their class.
They should just close down all these feedback threds given by players that barely got above level 10
I love to see a screen shot of this cw out dpsing a tr .
from a lvl 50 CW, not lvl 10
You sir like about 80% of these posters did NOT test at all then. GWF damage is just pathetic now. rogue is doing 2times the damage as a CW at least in high levels(3times all others). this above poster is completely full of ^%$# and or simply lieing period.
you simply can not debate the FACT that in 10 seconds the rogue is doing 3500 damage on average and the CW is doing 2k at best. that is a tested FACT. fact= not debateable. That has ZERO to do with playing skills. that IS the number of the abilities of damage done on the same mob per class.
The rogue dps has ZERO to do with player skill. or getting to 10th or 50th or gear . the rogue should do more dps. NO one is saying it should not. but the amount it can do more in the same time period is WAY too much right now. This is for pve and PVP. pvp is worse tho.
TESTING DPS......... oh look a 50th level grunt orc. ok go GF go get the agro so the rogue and CW can get the rear bonuses. OK now CW go in and UNLeash all your hell on it for 30 seconds. timer starts on the first attack.......good good you got it down to 30% life. ok kill it off guys. next.. OK look another 50th grunt orc.. ok GF get agro. ok rogue go in and unleash hell on it for 30 seconds. timer starts on the first attack..... oh dammnn.... 20 seconds it is dead.. weird...
THAT is how you test DPS ( keyword since that is the debate above D P S). If you did not TEST all the classes then your opinion has the value of day ol dung.
Rogue is single target damage. Don't the other classes have standard encounter AE damage abilities? I only had one at level 40 and it was decent but on a long cool down. (had swords pop up through the floor) and on something like a 20+ second cooldown. TR is great at single target DPS but not so good at multi-target.
Yes... people are plain ignorant of the rogues skills to say he is all single target. he has splash has multi aoe skills and as of this weekend. yes a rogue can kill all 5 targets before a GWF. (gwf got screwed for bw4 a GF in general does the same of more damage)
Blitz: Average damage
Path of the Blade : low damage and pretty much a piece of C@@p
None of them will kill the mobs like you said.
Not particularly strong? It is stronger than the at wills of ranged classes. Why does a melee class even have a ranged attack let alone one that is as strong as cloud of steel?
But Since you tested the TR, tell me how many more range attacks the TR have?
The TR is not a Tank class, is not a healer or Controller. Is just a DPS class on leather armor. The range attacks is only good when the enemy is doing his red circle, other wise what the TR is going to do... pull a chair and have a cup of Coffee?
What I'm trying to said is that each class have their advantage and disadvantages. A few may not like TR because they get killed by a TR when they are trying to run away. But really if you don't like to die during a PvP match, just don't PvP
They don't need nor should they have any ranged attacks. They are a melee class. For some strange reason they have been given the strongest at will ranged attack available. It just makes no sense.
Honestly, I just flat out got tired of seeing so many TRs running around. Overall I think they are balanced, just having the best at will ranged attack is silly.
the rogues first 3 seconds of attacks kills at least 2 mobs if not partials of the others ( if it is a good smart rogue an lines them up ) then the ropgue attacks fast and kills all 5 in say 8 seconds......... ( that's example) the GWF.. he only gets about 5 attacks off in that same time and hopes he is able to kill them........or heres another example. rogues at will attack hits for 400 and fast... gwf at will hits 3 targets at 180each and attacks half the speed of the rogue..... start to add those numbers up.
oh yeah.. gwf is DPS. plain n simple DPS.( please don't be one of the moronic tards that says the gwf is a tank/controller lolol just stop don't.. really/...) and has NO ranged attack. so....
Really all you guys are telling is how Unhappy wit the GWF, if you guys are so unhappy wit the GWF just give some constructive criticism in the GWF forum.
I wonder what people is going to said when the ranger class come out? That is, if they are planning to bring that class.
First off, I don't hate TRs, I'm pointing out what I consider to be something that doesn't fit with the class.
Secondly, a dps specced GWF has no real advantage over a TR in terms of survival. Heck, the TRs main stat has aoe resistance compared to the GWF that has dot resistance. And since you seem so keen on what you should do while outside of range due to AOE, what is a GWF going to do? They have zero ranged. Why does the TR get the best at will ranged ability in game?
Guardians fill the role of tank, so while performing their main job of generating threat to maintain an enemies aggro, they can deal out respectable damage, but no where near that of a TR, that is fine. A Cleric can do dish out a fair amount while providing the only major source of healing support to the group. A Control Wizard can CC some while twisting some damage I guess. GWF basically just chugs potions and wastes a party slot.
But TR's, well there damage is so high that there really isn't a point to bring a CW or GWF when its faster to simply focus fire down enemies than trying to CC or AoE them down. When the sheer amount of raw DPS that one class can pump out trivializes two entire roles, there is a problem.
Quit your lying, you may have been focus fired by an entire group and died quickly, but there is no way in hell you can expect anyone to believe any class can one shot anyone in PvP. This beta weekend all I did was PvP, on my CW and on my TR, and in no way in any match I played see anyone come even close to getting one shotted.
I wish all you whining little babies calling for nerfs to TR, learn to understand class roles and game mechanics before you start trying to ruin this game before it is even released. Hopefully the devs are smart enough to differentiate between the dribble of whiners and common sense and logic from posters giving valid feedback.
Each class has a DIFFERENT role, D&D isn't about class balance, its about the group performing together as one unit to accomplish its goals. If you start trying to balance classes to the point where every class is equal in terms of DPS, then what is the point of even having different classes. I won't disagree that maybe some of the classes aren't fulfilling their role adequately, but I cannot give any weight to that as I have not played all the classes, but people whining that their cleric cannot out DPS a rogue, need to just quit gaming. That argument is as stupid as me crying that my Rogue could not outheal a cleric!
In all the groups I PvP'd with this BW4, I noticed that each class could perform very well at the hands of someone who understood their role. I saw DC that were very good at keeping the group alive, I saw CW that payed attention to the fight and knew when to use what cc to benefit their group taking over a node, I saw GF playing the lead role extremely well helping their group take over a node, I saw GWF and TR that were killing machines. And you know why? Because the players behind those classes understood their roles, and played to the strengths of the class, and didn't sit back and whine that their cleric couldn't out DPS a Rogue.
To summarize:
A GWF (Fighter/Defender) should be on par with a rogue (Striker) dps wise
Rogues have 1000x more survival skills
A level 10 TR does more damage than a level 50 GWF
Proof = a video I watched
Grass is yellow
Bruenor was a bearded gnome
.... oh wait, was any of that true?
TR is the ONLY "Striker" class in the game at the moment.
Strikers are supposed to do significantly more damage than other roles per D&D rules.
GWF is a Defender/Striker hybrid. NOT a pure Striker like TR.
CW DC and GF are not Strikers in any form.
Opinions:
Classes are pretty close to balanced. People think TR are OP because they do more damage failing to realize that this is by game design. More striker classes will be added after release and people will calm down.
GWF could possibly use a little tweaking to increase their "Defender" capabilities with more survivability. Perhaps a small dps increase.
CW and DC are performing their intended roles pretty well I believe. CW might be a little too powerful in PVP setting. Perhaps add some form of diminishing return on CC in PVP. Feels like whichever team has more CW's wins based on my experience in BW4 at least.
GF I'm unsure of cause I've never played one and none of my friends have played one past like lvl 10. From the groups I've done they seem to do their job just fine.
If you think all classes should be equal at everything you should go read D&D rules so you understand how its supposed to work. If you still disagree maybe go play a different game and stop crying on the forums.
Lies:
TR are overpowered
GWF suck
DC sucks at healing
CW can't CC long enough
Fact:
Actual PW employees have stated GWF are a massive damage dealer with DPS in line with rogues.
GWF are no where near rogue dps as of BWE4.
Opinion:
TR should not have the strongest at will ranged attack.
Strongest how? It only has 12 charges then you have to wait for them to refresh. Doesn't seem very strong to me. I'm guessing you never actually played rogue to see that though right? You just got finished off in PVP by a rogue with it and that makes you an expert right? :P
Who should have the strongest ranged at will attack in your opinion of the classes available in game atm. CW? DC? Both absolutely not DPS classes. GWF? Why GWF over TR? Do you see how your argument is flawed? When they release archer ranger if rogue still has the "strongest" at will ranged attack then I'll gladly admit there's an issue.
Rogues are supposed to do more damage as a striker class. If you want to keep up with DPS, play a striker or wait for new strikers to be released.
I would counter and state you must not have played one or at least not effectively. It can unload those charges in 4 seconds and do way more damage than any other ranged at will.
I fully understand a rogue isn't going to use it as the only at will, rogue is a melee class. They will use the melee abilities and when something manages to get range, they will unload with a ton of damage at range.
As to should have the highest ranged at wills, it should absolutely be Harry Potter and Dr. House. Their ranged at wills do considerable less damage than TR melee at wills, as it should be. However they are ranged and TR should not do more than them at ranged. A melee should not have range at all, including the GWF and GF. I'd make an exception for a very low damage ranged pull for tanks with a decent cooldown.
P.S. I forgot to mention my source, it was in the stream they did the day before the last BWE.
This, the game shouldn't be "balanced" in the first place but alas they had to add PVP.
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