No, you didn't pay $200 for drow exclusivity, you paid $200 for a drow BACKGROUND TRAIT and some cosmetic stuff associated with it. That's it. Don't assume that just because you've spent money you're entitled to lots of other things that weren't part of the original agreement. You bought X. Don't demand Y as well just because you spent $200.
Edit: There might be some argument that the Menzoberranzan Renegade is a unique Drow race rather than "just" a background trait, but that still doesn't mean you're entitled to Drow exclusivity since that was never mentioned anywhere when you paid the $200. Because you made a "heavy investment" does that mean you also think you should be the only ones able to play Control Wizards for 60 days? And if not, why not? That's exactly the same as demanding that you're the only players allowed to play as a Drow.
"We don't care that these people made a hefty investment into a game in which I will play without spending a dime, we want everything they get too...for free."
You're right, we don't care (or at least I don't ) how much money you spent. And we didn't ask Cryptic to make this game free or hand out the drow race for free either, and I can't remember a single post stating that they wanted anything in any of the Founder's Packs for free, but you're free to quote me anyone that said any of those things to prove me wrong.
If it were up to me this game would be B2P and the drow race would be in the cash shop where it belongs (for a reasonable price rather than the ridiculous sum of $200), because it isn't a standard race anyways and non-standard races shouldn't be available to everyone. The only races that should be in for free IMO should be Human, Dwarf, Elf and Halfling*--the original D&D core races. Everyone else should chip in if they want their special race (plus it would give Cryptic incentive to keep coughing them out regularly, so most of us will eventually get our favorite race).
I would have payed for drow. But Cryptic decided to make it free all on its own and said it would be in at launch way back since even before PWE took over. And now they suddenly gate it for 60 days just to make the HotN purchasers feel specially because apparently some of them didn't feel their $200 purchase was worth enough so they had to shower the forums with tears demanding assurances that the Menzoberranzan Renegage background they paid for would never find its way into the cash shop. Which should tell you something about the company you're dealing with; they won't throw anything tangible to sweeten the deal or give 100% assurances that they'll NEVER (ever) sell in the cash shop the race you paid $200 for, but they'll take away another race you didn't pay for from the rest for 60 days just to create the illusion that they're giving you something of value.
*oops, forgot Half-Elves and Gnomes, but those didn't come in till AD&D :P and maybe Half-Orc as well but they weren't in AD&D 2nd ed or the first D&D 4e handbook.
You know, if they come tomorrow and say, "Okay. Here's the Drow. We'll make it free for everyone on launch day. Founders Pack Purchases still get a unique version, but we are also including the Half-Orc race exclusive for 60 days as a bonus."
You'll see a ton of people come in here and whine about that. It's like, "We don't care that these people made a hefty investment into a game in which I will play without spending a dime, we want everything they get too...for free."
People buy things all the time and don't have to share with you. You have to buy your own. Instead of feeling lucky that you ever get to touch the Drow, people want to whine that they don't get it right now. If it's really that important to you, you'd pony up the cash too. They could easily just make it Founder's Pack Exclusive forever, so if you miss out you can never get it.
People who paid for it should get it first. In my opinion, it should be exclusive for a lot longer than 60 days.
The first thing I hear people say is, "I can't afford 200 bucks."
To that I can only reply, "Then you realize what was spent by those who bought the pack. That should show you that getting the Drow exclusively for a while is acceptable considering the money that was spent."
It's not like someone won a contest and you weren't lucky enough to win it. They bought something you didn't. That is the way life works.
Winning comment. Well put and pithy and irrefutable.
It IS refuteable. Since what many people are upset about isn't not getting the drow. It's having been told for years -if you want to quibble, it's having been led to believe that all races would be in for free at launch - that the drow would be in at launch, and now suddenly it isn't. That's the part that so many people talking down at the upset people are leaving out in their denigrations of greed.
For years the drow have been displayed prominently among the races, and we've been told that all races will be available for everyone. There've been no qualifiers, no "well some might not be available immediately," nothing other than Cryptic stating that they don't want to gate content - quests, races, classes, foundry access - behind a pay model, they want to gate cosmetics and convenience.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
You know, if they come tomorrow and say, "Okay. Here's the Drow. We'll make it free for everyone on launch day. Founders Pack Purchases still get a unique version, but we are also including the Half-Orc race exclusive for 60 days as a bonus."
You'll see a ton of people come in here and whine about that. It's like, "We don't care that these people made a hefty investment into a game in which I will play without spending a dime, we want everything they get too...for free."
People buy things all the time and don't have to share with you. You have to buy your own. Instead of feeling lucky that you ever get to touch the Drow, people want to whine that they don't get it right now. If it's really that important to you, you'd pony up the cash too. They could easily just make it Founder's Pack Exclusive forever, so if you miss out you can never get it.
People who paid for it should get it first. In my opinion, it should be exclusive for a lot longer than 60 days.
The first thing I hear people say is, "I can't afford 200 bucks."
To that I can only reply, "Then you realize what was spent by those who bought the pack. That should show you that getting the Drow exclusively for a while is acceptable considering the money that was spent."
It's not like someone won a contest and you weren't lucky enough to win it. They bought something you didn't. That is the way life works.
Irrefutable? I beg to differ.
The only thing I don't agree with is that the Menzo-Renegade is still exclusive to founders whether or not the drow are released at launch or not. When they do come, players who are not Heroes still won't be able to create a Menzo-Renegade, so why treat the normal drow as though they are of the same exclusivity? Yeah, I don't like the 60 day wait for a normal drow, especially when the "reason" is to give Heros exclusive access to a Menzo-Renegade that they will still have exclusive access to even after the normal drow are released.
In my opinion, there is no good reason, other than a cash grab or technical issues, to make normal drow inaccessible for the first 60 days.
In any case, I'll still be playing a human wizard first, as planned. I just don't like the idea of waiting to make a core forgotten realms race that had, until now, been seen as being available come launch. Now, if they said they were holding off releasing if for 60 days while they continue to test it out and perfect the race, then I'd have no problems. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Just to reiterate one thing: From all we have be told and seen the Menzo-Renage is different than just a normal drow. This why I am baffled and at a loss for acceptance at this decision. If they were one and the same, then that would be a whole other can of worms.
ocrambosMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I personally do not mind it being exclusive, but my input for that matter is unimportant seeing as I don't like elves at all, be they dark or normal. I think they shot themselves in the foot by being confusing whether the hero of the north pack would receive a race, or just a background. Some people thought they'd get the race exclusively, but it was of course just the background. Instead of giving them something else though to make up for it, they took something away from the regular players.
I'm sure they could've given something else that'd be exclusive to heroes without alienating such a large portion of drow fans. They're in a petty situation now though, changing again may just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> more people of.
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nikkalMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Irrefutable? I beg to differ.
The only thing I don't agree with is that the Menzo-Renegade is still exclusive to founders whether or not the drow are released at launch or not. When they do come, players who are not Heroes still won't be able to create a Menzo-Renegade, so why treat the normal drow as though they are of the same exclusivity? Yeah, I don't like the 60 day wait for a normal drow, especially when the "reason" is to give Heros exclusive access to a Menzo-Renegade that they will still have exclusive access to even after the normal drow are released.
In my opinion, there is no good reason, other than a cash grab or technical issues, to make normal drow inaccessible for the first 60 days.
In any case, I'll still be playing a human wizard first, as planned. I just don't like the idea of waiting to make a core forgotten realms race that had, until now, been seen as being available come launch. Now, if they said they were holding off releasing if for 60 days while they continue to test it out and perfect the race, then I'd have no problems. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Just to reiterate one thing: From all we have be told and seen the Menzo-Renage is different than just a normal drow. This why I am baffled and at a loss for acceptance at this decision. If they were one and the same, then that would be a whole other can of worms.
Ah, you put it better than I did. Similar point though. I'm glad someone else seems to be reacting in a similar fashion!
Waiting on the drow itself isn't a big deal to me. Having been led to believe for years that the drow would be available, and now this sudden change of mind is what I'm objecting to. I only see two possibilities here:
1) If the two are different, there's no reason to delay the one.
2) If they're not different, then there's no reason to sell one as being exclusive.
Winning comment. Well put and pithy and irrefutable.
Tell me where in the HotN pack description it says that it includes 60 day exclusive access to the vanilla drow race starting at launch and quote at least ONE poster, just one (fmstalker is actually implying that everyone that's complaining is included in this but I'll let that slide), that said that they wanted everything, including the contents of the HotN pack for free and you'll be halfway correct in your statement that that post is somehow irrefutale.
1) I stand-fast on the irrefutable claim - which it is, if you take the time to read it again and allow the context of that post to percolate with logic and reasoning (remove emotion).
2) I *agree* that the GUARDIAN level of Founder *should* have immediate access to the "vanilla Drow" at launch and that it is unfair to deny *them*. Everyone else: deal with it and kwitcherbichen.
3) The post I claim as irrefutable was directed toward (in my understanding) the entitlement crowd: those whom have become shrill about having to wait 60-days for a playable character and, yet, have not participated in the Founder's program by purchasing one of the Founders packages.
So this debate/argument/discussion, whatever you want to call it really falls into three participant parts:
1) The Hero level founders and what they get in your packs
2) The Guardian level founders and what they get in their packs
3) The non-founder players who will exercise their free-to-play without purchasing a founders pack.
With these "categories" defines, my position is this:
HERO Level founders receive a DROW COSTUME (armor, skin, but - as described - NOT a playable race.
However, this COSTUME, which was paid for, is useless without a payable character to attach it to. So (I surmise) Cryptic is allowing the "vanilla Drow" to be accessed by HERO level founders so they can make use of the COSTUME they have purchased. Perhaps it actually IS a separate playable race (the Mezzo version, whatever - it's a moot point).
GUARDIAN level founders have received nothing in their packs pertaining to a Drow in any fashion. THOUGH I think it only FAIR that Cryptic ALLOW Guradian level founders access. Why? Because they are FOUNDERS who paid real money to be one. They chose that level for their own reasons, whether it's cost or items that appealed to them doesn't matter.
NON-FOUNDERs (those who haven;t purchased anything at all) seem to be the most vocal and shrill, expressing an entitlement attitude which in my view is outright childish and shameful. This is what the "irrefutable" post was directed at, to my understanding of what I have read.
As to what has and has not been announced:
It was announced that all races will be free at launch. It was announced that the "vanilla Drow" will be free when made available. I have not seen any announcement that said the "vanilla Drow" will be "available for free at launch.".
Here is the problem: people are splitting hairs over the wording of what was said. Rule number one: read carefully, do not insert meaning or context where none exists. Both statements are TRUE: All races will be free at launch. (They never said all races will be available at launch); the Drow playable race will be free when released. Furthermore they have indicated that all future playable races will be free when released - which I personally think is a mistake - some should be sold in the C-Store.
To summarize my position on this entirely user-created fiasco:
HERO Founders get to play *a* drow at launch, specifically the Mezzo version (it is not made clear that a Hero Founder can even play a "vanilla" version - as the system may only allow the Mezzo version).
GUARDIAN Founders do not get access to the vanilla version, which I disagree with. I believe they should have immediate access.
Non-paying players (non-founders) must wait 60-days and that's fine by me: it's still worth everything you;re paying for.
IN THE END: As it was suggested: it may be a TECHNICAL ISSUE involved here. There is word that the Wizard class is having real issues and being sent back to be reworked by developers several times over (Notice that class is not listed in the Extended FAQ). The HERO Founder's pack explicitly lists DROW (Costume only or not) in it's pre-sales description. There is no mention of Drow anywhere else regarding Guardian Founder's package. As for other *official* communication I do not see Drow mentioned, save the description of a 60-day wait.
NOTE: That any company will tell you that anything said in an interview is not considered "official statements" and additionally: Neverwinter is still in BETA status, which means anything and everything can change.
Guardian level Founders: I agree: regarding the Drow thing - it's not fair to you. EVERYONE ELSE: grow-up and deal with it.
Irrefutable? I beg to differ.
The only thing I don't agree with is that the Menzo-Renegade is still exclusive to founders whether or not the drow are released at launch or not. When they do come, players who are not Heroes still won't be able to create a Menzo-Renegade, so why treat the normal drow as though they are of the same exclusivity? Yeah, I don't like the 60 day wait for a normal drow, especially when the "reason" is to give Heros exclusive access to a Menzo-Renegade that they will still have exclusive access to even after the normal drow are released.
In my opinion, there is no good reason, other than a cash grab or technical issues, to make normal drow inaccessible for the first 60 days.
In any case, I'll still be playing a human wizard first, as planned. I just don't like the idea of waiting to make a core forgotten realms race that had, until now, been seen as being available come launch. Now, if they said they were holding off releasing if for 60 days while they continue to test it out and perfect the race, then I'd have no problems. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Just to reiterate one thing: From all we have be told and seen the Menzo-Renage is different than just a normal drow. This why I am baffled and at a loss for acceptance at this decision. If they were one and the same, then that would be a whole other can of worms.
Very well put.
The truth Zeb, is I dont think they ARE that different. Even if they are, with the limited character creation/leveling windows we have, do you think they really play that differently? I think they feel forced to do this because of the truth of the matter, that there really isnt that much a play-difference between +2 of any stat or enhancement in the game.
If they want to make drow special, then make us unlock it after a certain amount of play, as an achievement. The way this is being done is a blatant cash grab, and results in a promise broken. Unless you tell us the drow race is broken and needs work, drow should be in on Day One. I have no problem with Menzo-Renegade being exclusive for HoNs.
I find it ironic that the group of people acting the most entitled are the Hero of the North owners. For some reason they think that "investing" money now means they're ENTITLED to freebies and exclusive content that wasn't included in the original purchase. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the decision really as I wasn't planning on playing a Drow to start with, I just don't think it's something Heroes of the North are entitled to - they should be appreciating that they're getting something extra.
*utters a long string of profanities, flips a table and ends up having a fit of seizures on the floor before standing up nonchalantly like nothing happened and taking a deep calming breath*
...I'll start playing 60 days after launch.
EDIT/PS: HOW DO YOU EVEN LAUNCH A "D&D" GAME WITHOUT F@#*ING WIZARDS?!?
*goes back to work like nothing happened*
Thats just crazy though, nobody would do something like that...surely.
I remember Andy Velasquez saying to TotalBiscuit that if you told him a year ago that Neverwinter would launch with only 5 classes he'd curl into a ball in the corner and cry, so he definitely wouldn't be happy launching with 4. Ultimately though it's down to whether the Wizard is ready or not.
I dont think this is a matter of entitlement for anyone. HotN purchasers are awesome for supporting Cryptic. I'll be investing in this game in a different way and time. Ive donated my time in promoting the game to guildies, by participating in our community here, hosting a podcast, and talking the game up in DDO. I'll be investing cash throughout the years I play. So, however it is that we contribute, we should never feel entitled or thrust it in someones face that we did or did not make a purchase. Thats bad for the community, and it makes no sense.
Clearly they feel the need to build more value in the packs. That should not be done by pissing off the large majority of the community who HASNT purchased ... yet. You want to sell more packs, then UPGRADE THEM. Im sure current subscribers will be more than happy to accept more goodies, and it might sell more product, without putting an artificial limit on an already limited character palette.
PS: How about a first look at the next 2 races created after game launches? It may not be enough all by itself, but people tend to LOVE options, and love to be 1st to experience things like this. And its costs Cryptic NOTHING to include in the packs.
grayghost79Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Thats sad, my son (22) picked up the $60 pack because they repeatedly said the Drow would be playable at launch it was just the Menzo-Renegade that would be exclusive. Now he's doing a charge back on the $60 pack and won't play until 60 days after launch and plans on buying nothing. So... now I don't get to game with my son at launch and you guys lost money.
I don't understand the point of the move myself.
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thecainMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Thats sad, my son (22) picked up the $60 pack because they repeatedly said the Drow would be playable at launch it was just the Menzo-Renegade that would be exclusive. Now he's doing a charge back on the $60 pack and won't play until 60 days after launch and plans on buying nothing. So... now I don't get to game with my son at launch and you guys lost money.
I don't understand the point of the move myself.
Have you read the latest poll? A few people actually upgraded to the $200 pack to get the Drow. The Drow Guild is literally begging to buy the class for $20 at launch. It's about money, nothing more and nothing less. Worse yet is the heroes who are running around telling people to "grow up" and "pony up the money" because it's somehow entitled to them, even though they bought the pack knowing full well that they'd be getting the Renegade race, not exclusivity to the Drow itself.
It's a dirty, underhanded move, but I've been trying to get feedback on an idea I had to turn gaining the Drow into a quest. Making an event around it. Putting a player's creation using the Foundry into D&D lore. They have a way of turning this around, and making it insanely good, but unfortunately I have no idea how to get hold of a dev directly to show him the idea, as they probably think it's just more raging. I doubt they'll pull back from their idea, but hey, crazier things have happened.
Have you read the latest poll? A few people actually upgraded to the $200 pack to get the Drow. The Drow Guild is literally begging to buy the class for $20 at launch. It's about money, nothing more and nothing less. Worse yet is the heroes who are running around telling people to "grow up" and "pony up the money" because it's somehow entitled to them, even though they bought the pack knowing full well that they'd be getting the Renegade race, not exclusivity to the Drow itself.
It's a dirty, underhanded move, but I've been trying to get feedback on an idea I had to turn gaining the Drow into a quest. Making an event around it. Putting a player's creation using the Foundry into D&D lore. They have a way of turning this around, and making it insanely good, but unfortunately I have no idea how to get hold of a dev directly to show him the idea, as they probably think it's just more raging. I doubt they'll pull back from their idea, but hey, crazier things have happened.
I personally frown on anyone who would say "pony-up the money or shut-up". I don;t have much interest in the Drow myself and if I could give it away or "auction it off" in game or something I would. It's just a cartoon for goodness sakes. And to clarify: I know and hope you know I am speaking only for myself. I know that particular cartoon is hugely important to a lot of players and I don;t want to belittle that. However, the whole debate has come down to entitlement attitudes.
As for the guy (gal?) who proclaimed a charge-back on credit card over this? Wow. I mean really: just wow. A re-evaluation of life priorities might be due for consideration. But you have the right to do it. ~shrugs~
Now here's something to consider regarding the Drow delay for 60-days: what if it's not as much a "money-grab" as it is a "ping-boost" for marketing reasons? Just a thought here... When Neverwinter launches the blogosphere and gamer magazines and all the internetz will be atwitter (Including Twitter) about Neverwinter. Reviews, blogs, Guilds all the rest. They will own the mindshare in gamer news stories for the first few weeks it's out. 60-days is an eternity in *internet news cycle* time. Releasing the much-wanted Drow playable race will give a serious boost to the news cycle for Neverwinter all over again - carrying it through for another week or two. In the world of Internet gaming: that's priceless. And it's just a guess on my part, and if true it's only one part of the reasons for doing it this way.
Some of those reasons for doing things a certain way are secret-sauce, some are reasons we couldn't even fathom and some are appearing to not make any sense at all - because we only know the one side of a phone conversation. But here's the big LOL: 60-days after Neverwinter goes live and this Drow becomes available who's gonna care? Anyone who reads back in these threads about the gripes and shrill screaming are going to laugh and think: "were you actually serious?".
Anyone who wants my Drow character can have it. Yeah, really. If you can show me a way to give it to you you can really have it, for real and I'm dead serious.
I bought the Hero pack for the Spider, Astral Diamonds, extra character slots and VIP Login Access. The rest I don't much care about. Will I roll a Drow? Yeah, sure. Why not? I paid for the opportunity, right? But it's not going to be my main. I'm personally partial to the Hafling myself. But if I could just give it away I would because frankly: they're ugly (to me) and my character must be a looker. That is the law of the universe, dammit! LOL
It is unfortunate: no one is going to change Cryptic's mind on this. So the best any of us can do about it is to allow things to unfold the way they intend it to.
It IS refuteable. Since what many people are upset about isn't not getting the drow. It's having been told for years -if you want to quibble, it's having been led to believe that all races would be in for free at launch - that the drow would be in at launch, and now suddenly it isn't.
Wait, we were never told "all races" would be in at launch; every time the subject has ever come up, the discussion has been about WHAT races would be in at launch, and how often they'd like to introduce more.
Having "every race at launch" would be incredibly unrealistic, especially without a definition of "every".
I dont think this is a matter of entitlement for anyone. HotN purchasers are awesome for supporting Cryptic. I'll be investing in this game in a different way and time. Ive donated my time in promoting the game to guildies, by participating in our community here, hosting a podcast, and talking the game up in DDO. I'll be investing cash throughout the years I play. So, however it is that we contribute, we should never feel entitled or thrust it in someones face that we did or did not make a purchase. Thats bad for the community, and it makes no sense.
Clearly they feel the need to build more value in the packs. That should not be done by pissing off the large majority of the community who HASNT purchased ... yet. You want to sell more packs, then UPGRADE THEM. Im sure current subscribers will be more than happy to accept more goodies, and it might sell more product, without putting an artificial limit on an already limited character palette.
PS: How about a first look at the next 2 races created after game launches? It may not be enough all by itself, but people tend to LOVE options, and love to be 1st to experience things like this. And its costs Cryptic NOTHING to include in the packs.
This is a good post and speaks to the perception of greed, cash grabs, and exclusivity. Offering exclusive items in a game can be tricky. It's obviously a tactic garner more revenue (lots of games have done this), but it only seems to have worked well in the past when you can make people feel like they have something special while not alienating those who don't buy in but are still your customers.
Guys...hold up, anyone else seen this new edit in the FAQ?
What are the specifics surrounding the exclusivity of the Menzoberranzan Renegade Drow that comes with the Hero of the North Founder's Pack?
The Menzo-Renegade look, tattoo, racial background, racial ability, and special companion will remain permanently exclusive to Hero of the North Pack purchases. The vanilla, non-Menzoberranzan Renegade Drow race will be unavailable for at least first 60 days after release. We are currently planning to do a future update that will allow all players will be able to create a regular Drow character
What does that mean?! Or am I wrong in thinking this is a new edit? I could have sworn that that last part was not there at first...
Well, while I'm not bothered by the move, I must say it wasn't well handled by Cryptic.
I remeber watching the Founder's trailer and wondering, since when did the drow become an excusive race only to realise shortly that it was poorly worded and they where only talking about the Menzo drow.
Now because of that, they are postponing the regular drow. I can live with that, but they can't be surprised, that people aren't happy.
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grayghost79Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Have you read the latest poll? A few people actually upgraded to the $200 pack to get the Drow. The Drow Guild is literally begging to buy the class for $20 at launch. It's about money, nothing more and nothing less. Worse yet is the heroes who are running around telling people to "grow up" and "pony up the money" because it's somehow entitled to them, even though they bought the pack knowing full well that they'd be getting the Renegade race, not exclusivity to the Drow itself.
It's a dirty, underhanded move, but I've been trying to get feedback on an idea I had to turn gaining the Drow into a quest. Making an event around it. Putting a player's creation using the Foundry into D&D lore. They have a way of turning this around, and making it insanely good, but unfortunately I have no idea how to get hold of a dev directly to show him the idea, as they probably think it's just more raging. I doubt they'll pull back from their idea, but hey, crazier things have happened.
Many may have, though I don't know anyone that has personally. I do however know one person getting their money back and after he talked to his girlfriend she's thinking about doing the same.
I can only imagine how many may feel lied to by the changes and feel like PW is attempting to force them to spend $200. All I have to go on are the forums I visit regularly that have many expressing distaste for the move, haven't really seen any defend or stated they've upgraded, though I am not denying the possibility that some have and will.
Guys...hold up, anyone else seen this new edit in the FAQ?
What are the specifics surrounding the exclusivity of the Menzoberranzan Renegade Drow that comes with the Hero of the North Founder's Pack?
The Menzo-Renegade look, tattoo, racial background, racial ability, and special companion will remain permanently exclusive to Hero of the North Pack purchases. The vanilla, non-Menzoberranzan Renegade Drow race will be unavailable for at least first 60 days after release. We are currently planning to do a future update that will allow all players will be able to create a regular Drow character
What does that mean?! Or am I wrong in thinking this is a new edit? I could have sworn that that last part was not there at first...
Not a new edit - that was added when they clarified that only HotN will have early access. I think it is saying that Drow will be delayed 60-days, and it will be a patch that activates it for everyone when they do release it. Which brings up the possibility (however unlikely) there there could be a technical issue like with the wizard.
Though I can understand a tech issue with classes rather than races (more complicated than races in terms of play mechanics I would guess).
I find it ironic that the group of people acting the most entitled are the Hero of the North owners. For some reason they think that "investing" money now means they're ENTITLED to freebies and exclusive content that wasn't included in the original purchase.
What's ironic is people getting all up at arms about the HotN packs, talking about how people that buy it are no lifers who are stupid with their money and have been scammed.
And now those same people are jealous like crazy about something those people get- even though that's something they will all get for free themselves, just two months later.
They said all races would be free- that's still true, drow are still free, you just have to wait a bit to get one.
Considering how much hate was directed towards HotN owners at the start- I can't say I have too much sympathy now that something was added to the pack.
Is it a 'cash grab'? Perhaps- but this is a f2p game; and what is being offered here is nothing more than a convenience- it's not something that will win you the game or give you an advantage, it's nothing more than early access to something that has no effect on gameplay.
There are almost no f2p games I know of that haven't put something FAR worse on their cash store- people just have to realize when you pay nothing, you're going to get less than someone who pays something- this is a company, not a charity. I have to support Cryptic's decision here, because they're aiming at making money off of purely cosmetic/non-advantageous things- which is what a f2p game should do.
What's ironic is people getting all up at arms about the HotN packs, talking about how people that buy it are no lifers who are stupid with their money and have been scammed.
And now those same people are jealous like crazy about something those people get- even though that's something they will all get for free themselves, just two months later.
~SNIP~
One thing lost on those who look down their nose on Founder's pack purchasers is this: those who purchased the Founder's packs are the ones paying for the game so you can play for free and always remember: nothing is ever "free" - someone has to pay for it somehow. Without making money *somehow* Cryptic cannot keep the servers serving and the developers developing. It's simple economics.
To those of you whose feathers are ruffled over Founder's packs and what they get and all that: you're welcome.
WOW this is something to consider... I just spotted this in another thread and cross-posting it here:
Originally Posted by astralecho
For anyone else who was confused by the wording in the FAQ as to whether or not HotN players would have access to vanilla Drow during the 60-day period, or only Menzo renegades, I asked Sominator about this on Twitter.
Everyone has to wait for Vanilla Drow, HotN players included. So the only Drow that will be available at launch will be the Menzo Renegade variety, specific to HotN players.
So, there you go. The "vanilla Drow" delay could be a technical thing after all. But also, the Menzo Drow apparently IS a separate playable "race".
What's ironic is people getting all up at arms about the HotN packs, talking about how people that buy it are no lifers who are stupid with their money and have been scammed.
And now those same people are jealous like crazy about something those people get- even though that's something they will all get for free themselves, just two months later.
They said all races would be free- that's still true, drow are still free, you just have to wait a bit to get one.
Considering how much hate was directed towards HotN owners at the start- I can't say I have too much sympathy now that something was added to the pack.
Is it a 'cash grab'? Perhaps- but this is a f2p game; and what is being offered here is nothing more than a convenience- it's not something that will win you the game or give you an advantage, it's nothing more than early access to something that has no effect on gameplay.
There are almost no f2p games I know of that haven't put something FAR worse on their cash store- people just have to realize when you pay nothing, you're going to get less than someone who pays something- this is a company, not a charity. I have to support Cryptic's decision here, because they're aiming at making money off of purely cosmetic/non-advantageous things- which is what a f2p game should do.
Let me start again... I kind of have to agree with all that was said here.
Comments
Edit: There might be some argument that the Menzoberranzan Renegade is a unique Drow race rather than "just" a background trait, but that still doesn't mean you're entitled to Drow exclusivity since that was never mentioned anywhere when you paid the $200. Because you made a "heavy investment" does that mean you also think you should be the only ones able to play Control Wizards for 60 days? And if not, why not? That's exactly the same as demanding that you're the only players allowed to play as a Drow.
You're right, we don't care (or at least I don't
If it were up to me this game would be B2P and the drow race would be in the cash shop where it belongs (for a reasonable price rather than the ridiculous sum of $200), because it isn't a standard race anyways and non-standard races shouldn't be available to everyone. The only races that should be in for free IMO should be Human, Dwarf, Elf and Halfling*--the original D&D core races. Everyone else should chip in if they want their special race (plus it would give Cryptic incentive to keep coughing them out regularly, so most of us will eventually get our favorite race).
I would have payed for drow. But Cryptic decided to make it free all on its own and said it would be in at launch way back since even before PWE took over. And now they suddenly gate it for 60 days just to make the HotN purchasers feel specially because apparently some of them didn't feel their $200 purchase was worth enough so they had to shower the forums with tears demanding assurances that the Menzoberranzan Renegage background they paid for would never find its way into the cash shop. Which should tell you something about the company you're dealing with; they won't throw anything tangible to sweeten the deal or give 100% assurances that they'll NEVER (ever) sell in the cash shop the race you paid $200 for, but they'll take away another race you didn't pay for from the rest for 60 days just to create the illusion that they're giving you something of value.
*oops, forgot Half-Elves and Gnomes, but those didn't come in till AD&D :P and maybe Half-Orc as well but they weren't in AD&D 2nd ed or the first D&D 4e handbook.
It IS refuteable. Since what many people are upset about isn't not getting the drow. It's having been told for years -if you want to quibble, it's having been led to believe that all races would be in for free at launch - that the drow would be in at launch, and now suddenly it isn't. That's the part that so many people talking down at the upset people are leaving out in their denigrations of greed.
For years the drow have been displayed prominently among the races, and we've been told that all races will be available for everyone. There've been no qualifiers, no "well some might not be available immediately," nothing other than Cryptic stating that they don't want to gate content - quests, races, classes, foundry access - behind a pay model, they want to gate cosmetics and convenience.
The only thing I don't agree with is that the Menzo-Renegade is still exclusive to founders whether or not the drow are released at launch or not. When they do come, players who are not Heroes still won't be able to create a Menzo-Renegade, so why treat the normal drow as though they are of the same exclusivity? Yeah, I don't like the 60 day wait for a normal drow, especially when the "reason" is to give Heros exclusive access to a Menzo-Renegade that they will still have exclusive access to even after the normal drow are released.
In my opinion, there is no good reason, other than a cash grab or technical issues, to make normal drow inaccessible for the first 60 days.
In any case, I'll still be playing a human wizard first, as planned. I just don't like the idea of waiting to make a core forgotten realms race that had, until now, been seen as being available come launch. Now, if they said they were holding off releasing if for 60 days while they continue to test it out and perfect the race, then I'd have no problems. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Just to reiterate one thing: From all we have be told and seen the Menzo-Renage is different than just a normal drow. This why I am baffled and at a loss for acceptance at this decision. If they were one and the same, then that would be a whole other can of worms.
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I'm sure they could've given something else that'd be exclusive to heroes without alienating such a large portion of drow fans. They're in a petty situation now though, changing again may just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> more people of.
Ah, you put it better than I did. Similar point though. I'm glad someone else seems to be reacting in a similar fashion!
Waiting on the drow itself isn't a big deal to me. Having been led to believe for years that the drow would be available, and now this sudden change of mind is what I'm objecting to. I only see two possibilities here:
1) If the two are different, there's no reason to delay the one.
2) If they're not different, then there's no reason to sell one as being exclusive.
The message isn't making sense to me.
Tell me where in the HotN pack description it says that it includes 60 day exclusive access to the vanilla drow race starting at launch and quote at least ONE poster, just one (fmstalker is actually implying that everyone that's complaining is included in this but I'll let that slide), that said that they wanted everything, including the contents of the HotN pack for free and you'll be halfway correct in your statement that that post is somehow irrefutale.
1) I stand-fast on the irrefutable claim - which it is, if you take the time to read it again and allow the context of that post to percolate with logic and reasoning (remove emotion).
2) I *agree* that the GUARDIAN level of Founder *should* have immediate access to the "vanilla Drow" at launch and that it is unfair to deny *them*. Everyone else: deal with it and kwitcherbichen.
3) The post I claim as irrefutable was directed toward (in my understanding) the entitlement crowd: those whom have become shrill about having to wait 60-days for a playable character and, yet, have not participated in the Founder's program by purchasing one of the Founders packages.
So this debate/argument/discussion, whatever you want to call it really falls into three participant parts:
1) The Hero level founders and what they get in your packs
2) The Guardian level founders and what they get in their packs
3) The non-founder players who will exercise their free-to-play without purchasing a founders pack.
With these "categories" defines, my position is this:
HERO Level founders receive a DROW COSTUME (armor, skin, but - as described - NOT a playable race.
However, this COSTUME, which was paid for, is useless without a payable character to attach it to. So (I surmise) Cryptic is allowing the "vanilla Drow" to be accessed by HERO level founders so they can make use of the COSTUME they have purchased. Perhaps it actually IS a separate playable race (the Mezzo version, whatever - it's a moot point).
GUARDIAN level founders have received nothing in their packs pertaining to a Drow in any fashion. THOUGH I think it only FAIR that Cryptic ALLOW Guradian level founders access. Why? Because they are FOUNDERS who paid real money to be one. They chose that level for their own reasons, whether it's cost or items that appealed to them doesn't matter.
NON-FOUNDERs (those who haven;t purchased anything at all) seem to be the most vocal and shrill, expressing an entitlement attitude which in my view is outright childish and shameful. This is what the "irrefutable" post was directed at, to my understanding of what I have read.
As to what has and has not been announced:
It was announced that all races will be free at launch. It was announced that the "vanilla Drow" will be free when made available. I have not seen any announcement that said the "vanilla Drow" will be "available for free at launch.".
Here is the problem: people are splitting hairs over the wording of what was said. Rule number one: read carefully, do not insert meaning or context where none exists. Both statements are TRUE: All races will be free at launch. (They never said all races will be available at launch); the Drow playable race will be free when released. Furthermore they have indicated that all future playable races will be free when released - which I personally think is a mistake - some should be sold in the C-Store.
To summarize my position on this entirely user-created fiasco:
HERO Founders get to play *a* drow at launch, specifically the Mezzo version (it is not made clear that a Hero Founder can even play a "vanilla" version - as the system may only allow the Mezzo version).
GUARDIAN Founders do not get access to the vanilla version, which I disagree with. I believe they should have immediate access.
Non-paying players (non-founders) must wait 60-days and that's fine by me: it's still worth everything you;re paying for.
IN THE END: As it was suggested: it may be a TECHNICAL ISSUE involved here. There is word that the Wizard class is having real issues and being sent back to be reworked by developers several times over (Notice that class is not listed in the Extended FAQ). The HERO Founder's pack explicitly lists DROW (Costume only or not) in it's pre-sales description. There is no mention of Drow anywhere else regarding Guardian Founder's package. As for other *official* communication I do not see Drow mentioned, save the description of a 60-day wait.
NOTE: That any company will tell you that anything said in an interview is not considered "official statements" and additionally: Neverwinter is still in BETA status, which means anything and everything can change.
Guardian level Founders: I agree: regarding the Drow thing - it's not fair to you. EVERYONE ELSE: grow-up and deal with it.
Very well put.
The truth Zeb, is I dont think they ARE that different. Even if they are, with the limited character creation/leveling windows we have, do you think they really play that differently? I think they feel forced to do this because of the truth of the matter, that there really isnt that much a play-difference between +2 of any stat or enhancement in the game.
If they want to make drow special, then make us unlock it after a certain amount of play, as an achievement. The way this is being done is a blatant cash grab, and results in a promise broken. Unless you tell us the drow race is broken and needs work, drow should be in on Day One. I have no problem with Menzo-Renegade being exclusive for HoNs.
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Thats just crazy though, nobody would do something like that...surely.
Clearly they feel the need to build more value in the packs. That should not be done by pissing off the large majority of the community who HASNT purchased ... yet. You want to sell more packs, then UPGRADE THEM. Im sure current subscribers will be more than happy to accept more goodies, and it might sell more product, without putting an artificial limit on an already limited character palette.
PS: How about a first look at the next 2 races created after game launches? It may not be enough all by itself, but people tend to LOVE options, and love to be 1st to experience things like this. And its costs Cryptic NOTHING to include in the packs.
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I don't understand the point of the move myself.
Have you read the latest poll? A few people actually upgraded to the $200 pack to get the Drow. The Drow Guild is literally begging to buy the class for $20 at launch. It's about money, nothing more and nothing less. Worse yet is the heroes who are running around telling people to "grow up" and "pony up the money" because it's somehow entitled to them, even though they bought the pack knowing full well that they'd be getting the Renegade race, not exclusivity to the Drow itself.
It's a dirty, underhanded move, but I've been trying to get feedback on an idea I had to turn gaining the Drow into a quest. Making an event around it. Putting a player's creation using the Foundry into D&D lore. They have a way of turning this around, and making it insanely good, but unfortunately I have no idea how to get hold of a dev directly to show him the idea, as they probably think it's just more raging. I doubt they'll pull back from their idea, but hey, crazier things have happened.
I personally frown on anyone who would say "pony-up the money or shut-up". I don;t have much interest in the Drow myself and if I could give it away or "auction it off" in game or something I would. It's just a cartoon for goodness sakes. And to clarify: I know and hope you know I am speaking only for myself. I know that particular cartoon is hugely important to a lot of players and I don;t want to belittle that. However, the whole debate has come down to entitlement attitudes.
As for the guy (gal?) who proclaimed a charge-back on credit card over this? Wow. I mean really: just wow. A re-evaluation of life priorities might be due for consideration. But you have the right to do it. ~shrugs~
Now here's something to consider regarding the Drow delay for 60-days: what if it's not as much a "money-grab" as it is a "ping-boost" for marketing reasons? Just a thought here... When Neverwinter launches the blogosphere and gamer magazines and all the internetz will be atwitter (Including Twitter) about Neverwinter. Reviews, blogs, Guilds all the rest. They will own the mindshare in gamer news stories for the first few weeks it's out. 60-days is an eternity in *internet news cycle* time. Releasing the much-wanted Drow playable race will give a serious boost to the news cycle for Neverwinter all over again - carrying it through for another week or two. In the world of Internet gaming: that's priceless. And it's just a guess on my part, and if true it's only one part of the reasons for doing it this way.
Some of those reasons for doing things a certain way are secret-sauce, some are reasons we couldn't even fathom and some are appearing to not make any sense at all - because we only know the one side of a phone conversation. But here's the big LOL: 60-days after Neverwinter goes live and this Drow becomes available who's gonna care? Anyone who reads back in these threads about the gripes and shrill screaming are going to laugh and think: "were you actually serious?".
Anyone who wants my Drow character can have it. Yeah, really. If you can show me a way to give it to you you can really have it, for real and I'm dead serious.
I bought the Hero pack for the Spider, Astral Diamonds, extra character slots and VIP Login Access. The rest I don't much care about. Will I roll a Drow? Yeah, sure. Why not? I paid for the opportunity, right? But it's not going to be my main. I'm personally partial to the Hafling myself. But if I could just give it away I would because frankly: they're ugly (to me) and my character must be a looker. That is the law of the universe, dammit! LOL
It is unfortunate: no one is going to change Cryptic's mind on this. So the best any of us can do about it is to allow things to unfold the way they intend it to.
Wait, we were never told "all races" would be in at launch; every time the subject has ever come up, the discussion has been about WHAT races would be in at launch, and how often they'd like to introduce more.
Having "every race at launch" would be incredibly unrealistic, especially without a definition of "every".
This is a good post and speaks to the perception of greed, cash grabs, and exclusivity. Offering exclusive items in a game can be tricky. It's obviously a tactic garner more revenue (lots of games have done this), but it only seems to have worked well in the past when you can make people feel like they have something special while not alienating those who don't buy in but are still your customers.
What are the specifics surrounding the exclusivity of the Menzoberranzan Renegade Drow that comes with the Hero of the North Founder's Pack?
The Menzo-Renegade look, tattoo, racial background, racial ability, and special companion will remain permanently exclusive to Hero of the North Pack purchases. The vanilla, non-Menzoberranzan Renegade Drow race will be unavailable for at least first 60 days after release. We are currently planning to do a future update that will allow all players will be able to create a regular Drow character
What does that mean?! Or am I wrong in thinking this is a new edit? I could have sworn that that last part was not there at first...
I remeber watching the Founder's trailer and wondering, since when did the drow become an excusive race only to realise shortly that it was poorly worded and they where only talking about the Menzo drow.
Now because of that, they are postponing the regular drow. I can live with that, but they can't be surprised, that people aren't happy.
Many may have, though I don't know anyone that has personally. I do however know one person getting their money back and after he talked to his girlfriend she's thinking about doing the same.
I can only imagine how many may feel lied to by the changes and feel like PW is attempting to force them to spend $200. All I have to go on are the forums I visit regularly that have many expressing distaste for the move, haven't really seen any defend or stated they've upgraded, though I am not denying the possibility that some have and will.
Not a new edit - that was added when they clarified that only HotN will have early access. I think it is saying that Drow will be delayed 60-days, and it will be a patch that activates it for everyone when they do release it. Which brings up the possibility (however unlikely) there there could be a technical issue like with the wizard.
Though I can understand a tech issue with classes rather than races (more complicated than races in terms of play mechanics I would guess).
What's ironic is people getting all up at arms about the HotN packs, talking about how people that buy it are no lifers who are stupid with their money and have been scammed.
And now those same people are jealous like crazy about something those people get- even though that's something they will all get for free themselves, just two months later.
They said all races would be free- that's still true, drow are still free, you just have to wait a bit to get one.
Considering how much hate was directed towards HotN owners at the start- I can't say I have too much sympathy now that something was added to the pack.
Is it a 'cash grab'? Perhaps- but this is a f2p game; and what is being offered here is nothing more than a convenience- it's not something that will win you the game or give you an advantage, it's nothing more than early access to something that has no effect on gameplay.
There are almost no f2p games I know of that haven't put something FAR worse on their cash store- people just have to realize when you pay nothing, you're going to get less than someone who pays something- this is a company, not a charity. I have to support Cryptic's decision here, because they're aiming at making money off of purely cosmetic/non-advantageous things- which is what a f2p game should do.
One thing lost on those who look down their nose on Founder's pack purchasers is this: those who purchased the Founder's packs are the ones paying for the game so you can play for free and always remember: nothing is ever "free" - someone has to pay for it somehow. Without making money *somehow* Cryptic cannot keep the servers serving and the developers developing. It's simple economics.
To those of you whose feathers are ruffled over Founder's packs and what they get and all that: you're welcome.
Originally Posted by astralecho
So, there you go. The "vanilla Drow" delay could be a technical thing after all. But also, the Menzo Drow apparently IS a separate playable "race".
I don't see the word "race" in that anywhere.
Your point? ~rolls eyes~
Let me start again... I kind of have to agree with all that was said here.