After 30 pages of vigorous debate, I declare victory for the "Not D&D" crowd! You are all right. Neverwinter is in fact not D&D. Your version of D&D is far superior in every way!
Congratulations. You have won the day! We now release you from this arena, so that you may gone on with your life as normal.
Good, are they gone? Now maybe we can get back to enjoying our game!
Hey just because I don't believe this is really a DnD game doesn't mean I think less of it.
Misrepresenting a product is not ok, day 1 DLC is not ok, rediculous F2P models are not ok, and it is our right as gamers to stand up against corporate bs and people like you who claim to be one of us while you're actually working for Cryptic! And before you say you're not, volunteer work is just a way to get the 1 year experience requirement on you resume for that Cryptic entry level position.
I think I still have a copy of that around here somewhere, but I've moved a few times since I last had cause to use any 2e stuff so who knows. :P
Before I posted my earlier reply I went to my gaming shelves to see if I could find my copy, which was unsuccessful, so I googled the details to make sure I had them correct.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
This arguement will never end. In a technical aspect, every game that uses a random math code to judge damage and defense (Aka rolling dice), uses character classes, or has stats that affect your abilities, can be partially declared DnD. In a "feels like dnd" aspect, every edition was different. 3.5 ed is my feels like dnd with all the options/skills/choices. Someone else might feel that 1st or 2nd ed is the core dnd. It's personal opinion.
For some people merely being in a realm of DnD makes it dnd. So I think this argument has to go to personal opinion and be laid to rest.
This arguement will never end. In a technical aspect, every game that uses a random math code to judge damage and defense (Aka rolling dice), uses character classes, or has stats that affect your abilities, can be partially declared DnD. In a "feels like dnd" aspect, every edition was different. 3.5 ed is my feels like dnd with all the options/skills/choices. Someone else might feel that 1st or 2nd ed is the core dnd. It's personal opinion.
For some people merely being in a realm of DnD makes it dnd. So I think this argument has to go to personal opinion and be laid to rest.
You misunderstand the argument. The argument isn't about what edition feels most like D&D, it's about the fact that NW states it's 4E when in fact it's not, it's not any D&D edition, it uses it's own system.
Neverwinter Online (NO) is far closer to D&D4 than any of the more conventional D&D versions.
I would advise Cryptic to make NO even closer to D&D4 because that is where the market for an MMO like this is.
psst...
*whispers*
You keep calling it Neverwinter Online or NO.
That's not the name of the game.
It's just Neverwinter or NW for short.
As in http://nw.perfectworld.com
I'm just sayin'...
You misunderstand the argument. The argument isn't about what edition feels most like D&D, it's about the fact that NW states it's 4E when in fact it's not, it's not any D&D edition, it uses it's own system.
Actually it states it's BASED off 4e. Which is like saying a movies based on a true story. If it shares similar class names and story line than It can claim to be based off it however it wants. And the topic asks if this is D&D not is this 4E D&D so you're going offtopic anyways.
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yellatrukMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited February 2013
I started playing D&D with Baldurs Gate in 1999.
Ive never been too interested in table top play and have only briefly tried it before.
Ive played multiple computer games using 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, and 3.5 rulesets. I am looking forward to trying 4.0 whether the public wants to accept it or not.
My favorite ruleset is probably 2.5 (if thats the one used in Icewind Dale.. I cant remember fully). The differences when 3.0 was released were pretty big and people didnt want to accept it at the start earlier. Over time we learned to love the changed and I feel we will accept and enjoy 4e in the long run.
For me, a new 4e does not diminish the other versions, I still play Baldurs Gate and DDO (among other D&D titles) but I will also enjoy the changes in Neverwinter for what they are, not for what my preconceived notions about what my D&D experiences have been in the past.
*sorry for the bad flow, my mind goes a mile a minute and my fingers pick up partial thoughts that dont generally link what I mean sometimes ;D
What would be the minimum number of changes that would make NO close enough to D&D4 for you?
Well to be frank they'd have to start from scratch. DnD is less about fighting monsters and more about coming up with whatever decision you want in response to an obstacle. DnD is a truly organic game were there are almost no constraints on your decision making outside of what is physically possible within the game world.
Edit: Now I understand that at our current technological level, this isn't entirely practical, but the fact that they don't really seem to be even trying kinda grates on me.
Well to be frank they'd have to start from scratch. DnD is less about fighting monsters and more about coming up with whatever decision you want in response to an obstacle. DnD is a truly organic game were there are almost no constraints on your decision making outside of what is physically possible within the game world.
Edit: Now I understand that at our current technological level, this isn't entirely practical, but the fact that they don't really seem to be even trying kinda grates on me.
That might be the case for D&D in general but D&D4 is a lot looser.
A game that resembles D&D and allows players to look cool while fighting could please the surviving market for D&D4.
NO is based on Champions Online and it won't be starting from scratch - another company is starting from scratch though and does seem to be trying, according to their Kickstarter overview.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
That might be the case for D&D in general but D&D4 is a lot looser.
A game that resembles D&D and allows players to look cool while fighting could please the surviving market for D&D4.
NO is based on Champions Online and it won't be starting from scratch - another company is starting from scratch though and does seem to be trying, according to their Kickstarter overview.
As I said, I don't expect the full DnD experience here, but I would like them to put a little more effort into customization and decision making when in a dungeon. Instead of the gathering skills they have right now, why not give everyone all of the gethering skills with proficiency based off of your base stats? Like, maybe someone with 20 strength would have a 20% greater chance at finding additional resources and a 10% greater chance at finding rarer items from dungeoneering stuff? Have only certain conversation options avaliable depending on your base stats (Certain intimidation options only open up for high strength characters for instance, not just charisma.) Basically, let my stats amount to more than just a dps increase.
What would be the minimum number of changes that would make NO close enough to D&D4 for you?
I kinda said these things more then one time....but I'll say them again for you.
-customizable character (feats + skills not some tech tree)
-skills do what they are supposed to do in D&D 4E
-bring back saves and d&d mechanics
-more player choices to execute an action and less hack&slash
-more clases and races (the small amount of clases is just not d&d way were you get tons of clases & races)
-the posibility to actively DM your own dungeon
TES online is not gonna be genuine TES either. But a WoW-sified, non-freeform skill progressing version with classes.
Just sayin'
Still, will be good to see how they bring TES all-out maps world to life in a MMO.
Only some class limitations the rest of the gameplay (fighting,trading,crafting etc) will be just like skyrim (lead developer anouncement google it).
But this is not the place to talk about this.
I kinda said these things more then one time....but I'll say them again for you.
-customizable character (feats + skills not some tech tree)
-skills do what they are supposed to do in D&D 4E
-bring back saves and d&d mechanics
-more player choices to execute an action and less hack&slash
-more clases and races (the small amount of clases is just not d&d way were you get tons of clases & races)
-the posibility to actively DM your own dungeon
100% agree. But would settle for 50% of it at launch since any of these things would take some time to produce.
I kinda said these things more then one time....but I'll say them again for you.
-customizable character (feats + skills not some tech tree)
-skills do what they are supposed to do in D&D 4E
-bring back saves and d&d mechanics
-more player choices to execute an action and less hack&slash
-more clases and races (the small amount of clases is just not d&d way were you get tons of clases & races)
-the posibility to actively DM your own dungeon
So scrap everything except the graphics and lore basically. Ok get to work Cryptic, I will set an alarm for Q1 2016
I kinda said these things more then one time....but I'll say them again for you.
-customizable character (feats + skills not some tech tree)
-skills do what they are supposed to do in D&D 4E
-bring back saves and d&d mechanics
-more player choices to execute an action and less hack&slash
-more clases and races (the small amount of clases is just not d&d way were you get tons of clases & races)
-the posibility to actively DM your own dungeon
Working on what is currently available with Champions Online (CO) here are how I rate the chances of those things;
- Choices between powers already exist in CO for archetypes (classes) but they are generally pick 1 of 2. There is also a mechanism that could be subverted into something resembling feats.
- The underlying mechanisms mostly don't exist. NPCs can switch from hostile to friendly and back in missions (Diplomacy) but no means of climbing exists (Athletics), for example.
- There are mechanisms for knock-back that might be usable for saves of some kind.
- Hack and slash probably is quite true to D&D4 but in CO good writing of missions (quests) allows some further options
- Adding classes or races is possible but they'll need animations and suitable variations for each race.
- In a mass client this is improbable in case people try to exploit the extra facilities.
I've been reviewing some of the videos (to find out whether Rogues have stealth) and have seen that the focus seems to be on fast paced violence designed to be as cool as possible, which fits D&D4 but won't suit people seeking a deeper game.
However there certainly is a chance that some improvements like those may be undertaken.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Working on what is currently available with Champions Online (CO) here are how I rate the chances of those things;
- Choices between powers already exist in CO for archetypes (classes) but they are generally pick 1 of 2. There is also a mechanism that could be subverted into something resembling feats.
- The underlying mechanisms mostly don't exist. NPCs can switch from hostile to friendly and back in missions (Diplomacy) but no means of climbing exists (Athletics), for example.
- There are mechanisms for knock-back that might be usable for saves of some kind.
- Hack and slash probably is quite true to D&D4 but in CO good writing of missions (quests) allows some further options
- Adding classes or races is possible but they'll need animations and suitable variations for each race.
- In a mass client this is improbable in case people try to exploit the extra facilities.
I've been reviewing some of the videos (to find out whether Rogues have stealth) and have seen that the focus seems to be on fast paced violence designed to be as cool as possible, which fits D&D4 but won't suit people seeking a deeper game.
However there certainly is a chance that some improvements like those may be undertaken.
I don't care about CO. I care about this game and this game lacks the structure and the choices of an D&D. This game is limited to 2 types of predefined clases (one that attacks one that defends/heals) were the skils don't do what they do in d&d, no saves.
It's basic an hack&slash with some rpg aura on it. D&D is about multiple choices,slim differences between sorc and wizard ,fighter and barbarian. D&D is about options for different paths to one goal and options to build a character with you can relate. The spirit of D&D is not here were you just kill & got a predefined path.
And don't get me start with the feats....picking from 3 feats (exageration to make the point) if epic fail for this game.
Btw just because you bring up CO, CO is a 5/10 game maybe a 6/10 at tops. So when people bring up that game it only scares me how low the standards are about NW......
If we don't raise the expectation bar who will ?
Just as a last idea baldur's gate 1 was a game made in the 90's and had tons of content(races,clases,epic dialogs,incredible story,greath graphics for it's time etc. ) that game was a d&d and it was made more then 10 years ago. Why can't a company that makes games in 2012 cannot even get as many races,clases,game mechanism like a game from more then 10 years ago ? This is what bothers me. They can do much more we all know it.
I kinda said these things more then one time....but I'll say them again for you.
-customizable character (feats + skills not some tech tree)
Technically possible, but not a very good idea for an action MMO, since it would mean both balance issues (that a DM can solve in a pen and paper game), and "button proliferation".
-skills do what they are supposed to do in D&D 4E
Technically possible, but balance issues again.
-bring back saves and d&d mechanics
Pretty much impossible in an action MMO, and would sink the game due to differences previously outlined between pen and paper playstyles (one or two combats per hour, infrequent advancement feedback vs multiple combats per minute, frequent advancement feedback).
-more player choices to execute an action and less hack&slash
So, not an action MMORPG at all.
-more clases and races (the small amount of clases is just not d&d way were you get tons of clases & races)
So, massively increased development cost/time.
-the posibility to actively DM your own dungeon
So, client trust required, so not an MMORPG at all.
You want a completely different game, that's not even an MMORPG. That's fine, but it's like walking into a Ford dealer, and demanding that before you'll buy an F-150, they turn it into a Honda motorcycle.
This is like my job. Setting quarterly goals so high that they are not attainable and everyone always fails. They say it motivates people to do better, I say it demoralizes people when they NEVER succeed. It is one thing to set goals, but yours are unrealistic in the scope of this project and at this stage of the project. Find Cryptic 100 million to fund a NW2 project, for man power and you MIGHT get something close if that was the goal. However they had one quarter that and that wasn't the goal. To ask that virtually the entire thing be scrapped (expect maybe the graphics and lore) and start from scratch is not going to happen, and that is what you are asking for. How about setting some realistic goals.
Would I like to see a game that is more true to the current mechanics of D&D, hell yes. Do I think we are going to see it in the next 10 years, hell no. Damn in the next 10 years I doubt what WotC will be putting out as a D&D game will look anything like it does now.
I kinda said these things more then one time....but I'll say them again for you.
-customizable character (feats + skills not some tech tree)
-skills do what they are supposed to do in D&D 4E
-bring back saves and d&d mechanics
-more player choices to execute an action and less hack&slash
-more clases and races (the small amount of clases is just not d&d way were you get tons of clases & races)
-the posibility to actively DM your own dungeon
I am fine with posts like this. I am totally okay with people saying they do not like the game, or are disheartened that some 4e mechanics were not adopted. Where I draw the line is, that these subjective quibbles lead to the declaration that "this isn't D&D". This is most clearly is Dungeons & Dragons, in both application and spirit.
My only caution is, don't fall too deeply in love with mechanics, as those mechanics change. I'd say the "life span" of saving throws as we know them, might be gone with the next edition, (as just an example). D&D really is never defined by its mechanics, mostly because just about every table creates its own unique set of house rules anyway, (which the game has always encouraged you to do).
One other rebuttal on this is the "posibility to actively DM your own dungeon" (sic)...
You know the Foundry's tools are remarkable and in many ways, you have more at your disposal than you do with a pen and paper design. In particular, you can hook directly into the "live world" of the actual game with your adventures and even more than that, you can set-up a serialized set of adventures, that can alter the outcome based on the actions of a previous module.
To me, that is the essence of active DMing...indeed it puts the power of DM influence where it belongs, in story and narrative, rather than adjudication of mechanics, which on a table can often be tiresome or worse, rather arbitrary.
Take a look at this video, look at all you can do with the Foundry, it's a DMs dream to my eyes and to me, more proof that this game very much embodies the spirit of D&D:
It's okay to walk away from NWO because the game does not suit you. It is sheer arrogance to jump and down and proclaim the game "isn't D&D" based on some pedantic, narrow interpretation of your own subjective taste.
Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not a viable product within D&D's pantheon of products. It most certainly is and even more importantly, represents the future of where D&D will continue to migrate to. D&D's new 5th Edition will make that even more abundantly clear when it releases I believe.
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
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starkaosMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
My opinion is that it is D&D due to the Foundry system and the setting is a fantasy realm with Dragons, Dungeons, Fighters, Thieves, and Wizards. The essence of D&D is creating interesting adventures that you and your friends can do. The game mechanics, lore, classes, and races are all secondary. This is the reason why I consider Neverwinter to be more of a D&D game over DDO. This game would be better with more classes and races, but it is a MMO so they can always introduce more.
*snip*Where I draw the line is, that these subjective quibbles lead to the declaration that "this isn't D&D".
As opposed to people adamantly declaring that it IS D&D simply because they "feel" that it is and/or are really hyped about this game, and many of them have never even played a table top session anyways and are only familiar with D&D through video games so they can't tell the difference either way? Or that it IS D&D because it has a D&D logo in it?
This is most clearly is Dungeons & Dragons, in both application and spirit.
It isn't. Even if we were to take this subjective notion about the "spirit" of D&D (which no one seems to adequately express exactly what that means--just throw it in there because no one can argue with subjective intangibles like the notion of "spirit") at face value and move beyond just discussing the game in terms of the system the "spirit" of D&D is not just about "sharing stories", "adventuring with friends", or "iconic monsters" and its most certainly not just sticking a D&D logo in it and calling it a part of the "pantheon" D&D of products (whatever tha hell that means :rolleyes:).
Whatever the edition D&D has always been about:
Cooperation (Reliance on Others): D&D has always had distinct classes (ok, they almost did away with this in D&D 4e, but they're still technically "distinct" classes even if they all look alike) with different skill sets, strengths and weakness that rely upon eachother to fullfill their goals. This was done purposefully in order to force characters to cooperate and work together. The game is not and has never being about going solo to every dungeon and being able to handle the entire thing all by yourself (which is what every Cryptic game is all about).
Its about always having someone to heal you, someone that can open locked doors that you NEED to open so you can progress in the adventure or disable traps that may get you killed. D&D has never been about traps that do minimal damage because you have to survive them in case you don't have someone to disarm them on your party. This person don't have to be another player, it can also be an NPC henchman that can rent their skills when you don't have anyone that can do them in your group (or when you're going "alone").
Tactical Combat: D&D has never been about "actiony" combat. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that, but there has to be more than just "actiony" game play in combat for a game to be in the "spirit" of D&D. Combat in D&D is about terrain, visibility and lighting, cover, ranged vs. melee (not melee lunge cop out attacks--if you're pure melee you're supposed to either have a backup ranged weapon, sneak your way towards ranged opponents, or have a strong shield so you can block your way there), etc.
Out of Combat Challenges: D&D is NOT just about hack-n-slash. Its about facing a myriad of challenges, not all of which have to be strictly combat, but all of which can be integral to the adventure. This includes social challenges (persuading or intimidating a guard or NPC for information or access to a certain location), technical challenges (finding and removing traps, opening locks, etc.), lore (having the right knowledge to read special scripts that may uncover vital information to progress in the adventure, recognizing religious artifacts, etc.), finding clues (through the use of perception skills), solving puzzles and more.
Plus probably other stuff I can't think of right now.
One other rebuttal on this is the "posibility to actively DM your own dungeon" (sic)...
You know the Foundry's tools are remarkable and in many ways, you have more at your disposal than you do with a pen and paper design. In particular, you can hook directly into the "live world" of the actual game with your adventures and even more than that, you can set-up a serialized set of adventures, that can alter the outcome based on the actions of a previous module.
To me, that is the essence of active DMing...indeed it puts the power of DM influence where it belongs, in story and narrative, rather than adjudication of mechanics, which on a table can often be tiresome or worse, rather arbitrary.
Wrong. First of all it is impossible for the foundry provide "more at your disposal" than simply letting your imagination run wild and adapting to any given situation like you do in pen and paper. And DMing is NOT about the story or narrative--its about the challenge of adapting that story or narrative to player character choices. Not about dragging them by the nose along a predetermined path where you want them to go.
To me, this just proves that you know nothing about what DMing (or even the "spirit" of D&D) is about.
Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not a viable product within D&D's pantheon of products. It most certainly is and even more importantly, represents the future of where D&D will continue to migrate to. D&D's new 5th Edition will make that even more abundantly clear when it releases I believe.
This is NOT about whether or not people "like" this game, its about whether it represents the "spirit" of D&D. D&D fans are perfectly capable of playing a game that isn't D&D and enjoying it. Whether that alone makes that game "D&D" is another matter entirely.
And you think that future editions of D&D will have anything to do with this game you're insane. This game's mechanics are NOT about the "future" of D&D. They're about Cryptic adapating D&D to their own game engine, which they use for all their games. And this is a FACT.
Comments
I think your tin foil hat slipped off your head.
It does mean, however, that fanboys get to blatantly misrepresent your position with strawmans that in no way address what you actually said.
Before I posted my earlier reply I went to my gaming shelves to see if I could find my copy, which was unsuccessful, so I googled the details to make sure I had them correct.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
For some people merely being in a realm of DnD makes it dnd. So I think this argument has to go to personal opinion and be laid to rest.
You misunderstand the argument. The argument isn't about what edition feels most like D&D, it's about the fact that NW states it's 4E when in fact it's not, it's not any D&D edition, it uses it's own system.
I would advise Cryptic to make NO even closer to D&D4 because that is where the market for an MMO like this is.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
psst...
*whispers*
You keep calling it Neverwinter Online or NO.
That's not the name of the game.
It's just Neverwinter or NW for short.
As in http://nw.perfectworld.com
I'm just sayin'...
*furtively skulks away...*
Champions Online Advanced Forum Search
Yes it's far closer to 4E then other editions! But it's still light years from D&D.:rolleyes:
Neah let him act like a kid. Who is not agreeing with me is wrong. No ?
We'll get back on this discution of this EPIC D&D game withing 6-8 months when they are all playing tes online......
TES online is not gonna be genuine TES either. But a WoW-sified, non-freeform skill progressing version with classes.
Just sayin'
Still, will be good to see how they bring TES all-out maps world to life in a MMO.
Actually it states it's BASED off 4e. Which is like saying a movies based on a true story. If it shares similar class names and story line than It can claim to be based off it however it wants. And the topic asks if this is D&D not is this 4E D&D so you're going offtopic anyways.
Ive never been too interested in table top play and have only briefly tried it before.
Ive played multiple computer games using 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, and 3.5 rulesets. I am looking forward to trying 4.0 whether the public wants to accept it or not.
My favorite ruleset is probably 2.5 (if thats the one used in Icewind Dale.. I cant remember fully). The differences when 3.0 was released were pretty big and people didnt want to accept it at the start earlier. Over time we learned to love the changed and I feel we will accept and enjoy 4e in the long run.
For me, a new 4e does not diminish the other versions, I still play Baldurs Gate and DDO (among other D&D titles) but I will also enjoy the changes in Neverwinter for what they are, not for what my preconceived notions about what my D&D experiences have been in the past.
*sorry for the bad flow, my mind goes a mile a minute and my fingers pick up partial thoughts that dont generally link what I mean sometimes ;D
What would be the minimum number of changes that would make NO close enough to D&D4 for you?
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Well to be frank they'd have to start from scratch. DnD is less about fighting monsters and more about coming up with whatever decision you want in response to an obstacle. DnD is a truly organic game were there are almost no constraints on your decision making outside of what is physically possible within the game world.
Edit: Now I understand that at our current technological level, this isn't entirely practical, but the fact that they don't really seem to be even trying kinda grates on me.
That might be the case for D&D in general but D&D4 is a lot looser.
A game that resembles D&D and allows players to look cool while fighting could please the surviving market for D&D4.
NO is based on Champions Online and it won't be starting from scratch - another company is starting from scratch though and does seem to be trying, according to their Kickstarter overview.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
As I said, I don't expect the full DnD experience here, but I would like them to put a little more effort into customization and decision making when in a dungeon. Instead of the gathering skills they have right now, why not give everyone all of the gethering skills with proficiency based off of your base stats? Like, maybe someone with 20 strength would have a 20% greater chance at finding additional resources and a 10% greater chance at finding rarer items from dungeoneering stuff? Have only certain conversation options avaliable depending on your base stats (Certain intimidation options only open up for high strength characters for instance, not just charisma.) Basically, let my stats amount to more than just a dps increase.
I kinda said these things more then one time....but I'll say them again for you.
-customizable character (feats + skills not some tech tree)
-skills do what they are supposed to do in D&D 4E
-bring back saves and d&d mechanics
-more player choices to execute an action and less hack&slash
-more clases and races (the small amount of clases is just not d&d way were you get tons of clases & races)
-the posibility to actively DM your own dungeon
Only some class limitations the rest of the gameplay (fighting,trading,crafting etc) will be just like skyrim (lead developer anouncement google it).
But this is not the place to talk about this.
100% agree. But would settle for 50% of it at launch since any of these things would take some time to produce.
So scrap everything except the graphics and lore basically. Ok get to work Cryptic, I will set an alarm for Q1 2016
Working on what is currently available with Champions Online (CO) here are how I rate the chances of those things;
- Choices between powers already exist in CO for archetypes (classes) but they are generally pick 1 of 2. There is also a mechanism that could be subverted into something resembling feats.
- The underlying mechanisms mostly don't exist. NPCs can switch from hostile to friendly and back in missions (Diplomacy) but no means of climbing exists (Athletics), for example.
- There are mechanisms for knock-back that might be usable for saves of some kind.
- Hack and slash probably is quite true to D&D4 but in CO good writing of missions (quests) allows some further options
- Adding classes or races is possible but they'll need animations and suitable variations for each race.
- In a mass client this is improbable in case people try to exploit the extra facilities.
I've been reviewing some of the videos (to find out whether Rogues have stealth) and have seen that the focus seems to be on fast paced violence designed to be as cool as possible, which fits D&D4 but won't suit people seeking a deeper game.
However there certainly is a chance that some improvements like those may be undertaken.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
I don't care about CO. I care about this game and this game lacks the structure and the choices of an D&D. This game is limited to 2 types of predefined clases (one that attacks one that defends/heals) were the skils don't do what they do in d&d, no saves.
It's basic an hack&slash with some rpg aura on it. D&D is about multiple choices,slim differences between sorc and wizard ,fighter and barbarian. D&D is about options for different paths to one goal and options to build a character with you can relate. The spirit of D&D is not here were you just kill & got a predefined path.
And don't get me start with the feats....picking from 3 feats (exageration to make the point) if epic fail for this game.
Btw just because you bring up CO, CO is a 5/10 game maybe a 6/10 at tops. So when people bring up that game it only scares me how low the standards are about NW......
If we don't raise the expectation bar who will ?
Just as a last idea baldur's gate 1 was a game made in the 90's and had tons of content(races,clases,epic dialogs,incredible story,greath graphics for it's time etc. ) that game was a d&d and it was made more then 10 years ago. Why can't a company that makes games in 2012 cannot even get as many races,clases,game mechanism like a game from more then 10 years ago ? This is what bothers me. They can do much more we all know it.
Technically possible, but not a very good idea for an action MMO, since it would mean both balance issues (that a DM can solve in a pen and paper game), and "button proliferation".
Technically possible, but balance issues again.
Pretty much impossible in an action MMO, and would sink the game due to differences previously outlined between pen and paper playstyles (one or two combats per hour, infrequent advancement feedback vs multiple combats per minute, frequent advancement feedback).
So, not an action MMORPG at all.
So, massively increased development cost/time.
So, client trust required, so not an MMORPG at all.
You want a completely different game, that's not even an MMORPG. That's fine, but it's like walking into a Ford dealer, and demanding that before you'll buy an F-150, they turn it into a Honda motorcycle.
This is like my job. Setting quarterly goals so high that they are not attainable and everyone always fails. They say it motivates people to do better, I say it demoralizes people when they NEVER succeed. It is one thing to set goals, but yours are unrealistic in the scope of this project and at this stage of the project. Find Cryptic 100 million to fund a NW2 project, for man power and you MIGHT get something close if that was the goal. However they had one quarter that and that wasn't the goal. To ask that virtually the entire thing be scrapped (expect maybe the graphics and lore) and start from scratch is not going to happen, and that is what you are asking for. How about setting some realistic goals.
Would I like to see a game that is more true to the current mechanics of D&D, hell yes. Do I think we are going to see it in the next 10 years, hell no. Damn in the next 10 years I doubt what WotC will be putting out as a D&D game will look anything like it does now.
I am fine with posts like this. I am totally okay with people saying they do not like the game, or are disheartened that some 4e mechanics were not adopted. Where I draw the line is, that these subjective quibbles lead to the declaration that "this isn't D&D". This is most clearly is Dungeons & Dragons, in both application and spirit.
My only caution is, don't fall too deeply in love with mechanics, as those mechanics change. I'd say the "life span" of saving throws as we know them, might be gone with the next edition, (as just an example). D&D really is never defined by its mechanics, mostly because just about every table creates its own unique set of house rules anyway, (which the game has always encouraged you to do).
One other rebuttal on this is the "posibility to actively DM your own dungeon" (sic)...
You know the Foundry's tools are remarkable and in many ways, you have more at your disposal than you do with a pen and paper design. In particular, you can hook directly into the "live world" of the actual game with your adventures and even more than that, you can set-up a serialized set of adventures, that can alter the outcome based on the actions of a previous module.
To me, that is the essence of active DMing...indeed it puts the power of DM influence where it belongs, in story and narrative, rather than adjudication of mechanics, which on a table can often be tiresome or worse, rather arbitrary.
Take a look at this video, look at all you can do with the Foundry, it's a DMs dream to my eyes and to me, more proof that this game very much embodies the spirit of D&D:
D&D Foundry Video
It's okay to walk away from NWO because the game does not suit you. It is sheer arrogance to jump and down and proclaim the game "isn't D&D" based on some pedantic, narrow interpretation of your own subjective taste.
Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not a viable product within D&D's pantheon of products. It most certainly is and even more importantly, represents the future of where D&D will continue to migrate to. D&D's new 5th Edition will make that even more abundantly clear when it releases I believe.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
As opposed to people adamantly declaring that it IS D&D simply because they "feel" that it is and/or are really hyped about this game, and many of them have never even played a table top session anyways and are only familiar with D&D through video games so they can't tell the difference either way? Or that it IS D&D because it has a D&D logo in it?
It isn't. Even if we were to take this subjective notion about the "spirit" of D&D (which no one seems to adequately express exactly what that means--just throw it in there because no one can argue with subjective intangibles like the notion of "spirit") at face value and move beyond just discussing the game in terms of the system the "spirit" of D&D is not just about "sharing stories", "adventuring with friends", or "iconic monsters" and its most certainly not just sticking a D&D logo in it and calling it a part of the "pantheon" D&D of products (whatever tha hell that means :rolleyes:).
Whatever the edition D&D has always been about:
Cooperation (Reliance on Others): D&D has always had distinct classes (ok, they almost did away with this in D&D 4e, but they're still technically "distinct" classes even if they all look alike) with different skill sets, strengths and weakness that rely upon eachother to fullfill their goals. This was done purposefully in order to force characters to cooperate and work together. The game is not and has never being about going solo to every dungeon and being able to handle the entire thing all by yourself (which is what every Cryptic game is all about).
Its about always having someone to heal you, someone that can open locked doors that you NEED to open so you can progress in the adventure or disable traps that may get you killed. D&D has never been about traps that do minimal damage because you have to survive them in case you don't have someone to disarm them on your party. This person don't have to be another player, it can also be an NPC henchman that can rent their skills when you don't have anyone that can do them in your group (or when you're going "alone").
Tactical Combat: D&D has never been about "actiony" combat. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that, but there has to be more than just "actiony" game play in combat for a game to be in the "spirit" of D&D. Combat in D&D is about terrain, visibility and lighting, cover, ranged vs. melee (not melee lunge cop out attacks--if you're pure melee you're supposed to either have a backup ranged weapon, sneak your way towards ranged opponents, or have a strong shield so you can block your way there), etc.
Out of Combat Challenges: D&D is NOT just about hack-n-slash. Its about facing a myriad of challenges, not all of which have to be strictly combat, but all of which can be integral to the adventure. This includes social challenges (persuading or intimidating a guard or NPC for information or access to a certain location), technical challenges (finding and removing traps, opening locks, etc.), lore (having the right knowledge to read special scripts that may uncover vital information to progress in the adventure, recognizing religious artifacts, etc.), finding clues (through the use of perception skills), solving puzzles and more.
Plus probably other stuff I can't think of right now.
Wrong. First of all it is impossible for the foundry provide "more at your disposal" than simply letting your imagination run wild and adapting to any given situation like you do in pen and paper. And DMing is NOT about the story or narrative--its about the challenge of adapting that story or narrative to player character choices. Not about dragging them by the nose along a predetermined path where you want them to go.
To me, this just proves that you know nothing about what DMing (or even the "spirit" of D&D) is about.
This is NOT about whether or not people "like" this game, its about whether it represents the "spirit" of D&D. D&D fans are perfectly capable of playing a game that isn't D&D and enjoying it. Whether that alone makes that game "D&D" is another matter entirely.
And you think that future editions of D&D will have anything to do with this game you're insane. This game's mechanics are NOT about the "future" of D&D. They're about Cryptic adapating D&D to their own game engine, which they use for all their games. And this is a FACT.