When I wrote the OP I didn't include a poll simply because this issue is so subjective. The poll got merged in from another thread. My post was originally intended just as a counterpoint to a number of "This is not D&D" threads. And, for the record, yes I do enjoy it when other people agree with me. And I also enjoy constructive and thoughtful rebuttals to my opinion.
My mistake, I apologize for assuming incorrectly, however I maintain my position that the pole itself doesn't really add anything.
My mistake, I apologize for assuming incorrectly, however I maintain my position that the pole itself doesn't really add anything.
I started the poll thread and I did not include my own opinion (though I did vote) simply to satisfy my curiosity on what other D&D fans thought of the state of the game. I thought that if I were concerned about it, others were too, and numbers will help give a solid idea of how people felt the game related to D&D itself.
I personally fall on the "no" side as I feel there is just not enough freedom in the game's character development to consider it of a D&D breed. That is my opinion and I know a lot agree, but as they say, the smallest crowd tend to be the loudest. I honestly thought more people would have voted "no" than "yes", but as someone stated earlier, there is still a large percent of people who don't consider this the brand Cryptic claims it to be.
Honestly I doubt that many of the people that have voted have read beyond the OP, if they read anything at all, and have mostly just gone with "yes" on the (unsubstantiated) "feeling" that this is D&D or the presence of the logo alone, without considering any of the yes/no arguments. Which (assuming I'm correct) would put any "value" such a poll would have in question.
Honestly I doubt that many of the people that have voted have read beyond the OP, if they read anything at all, and have mostly just gone with "yes" on the (unsubstantiated) "feeling" that this is D&D or the presence of the logo alone, without considering any of the yes/no arguments. Which (assuming I'm correct) would put any "value" such a poll would have in question.
Totally agree with this. People for the most part don't think to deeply before answering a poll. Not just forum polls but any poll.
Wrong. There have been plenty of posters that have unequivocally stated that making a video game that embodies the rules and mechanics of the PnP is "impossible".
...and then you rebut my saying that nobody has said you can't do PLENTY of them, with a quote from somebody who said you can't do ALL of them. Which is in no way the same thing. Again, a strawman; you're replying to statements and rebutting something that's not what was said, but is SIMILAR to what was said, because you can't rebut what was actually said.
Honestly I doubt that many of the people that have voted have read beyond the OP, if they read anything at all, and have mostly just gone with "yes" on the (unsubstantiated) "feeling" that this is D&D or the presence of the logo alone, without considering any of the yes/no arguments. Which (assuming I'm correct) would put any "value" such a poll would have in question.
So now you've moved to "if you voted yes, you didn't understand the question".
At this point your entire position is based on intellectual bullying; trying to shout down those who disagree with you, or belittle them into no longer participating, so you can have the last word.
OK, if that's how you want to play; go ahead, have the last word. I'll be busy playing this game, along with a couple of million of my closest friends.
syberghost out
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
And yes, D&D allows for a myriad of playstyles or interpretations, all covered within a single, inclusive game system that lends itself to being played different ways.
Exacty my point! I'm not sure how you can say this, then arbitrarily decide that Neverwinter doesn't fit your own description.
Exacty my point! I'm not sure how you can say this, then arbitrarily decide that Neverwinter doesn't fit your own description.
And this makes me want to ask the obvious question, something that perhaps should've been asked 37 pages ago.
Have you actually played Neverwinter yet?
With the myriad of game play, character creation and "interview" videos with game play in them.....is it really -necessary-? If you can't form a valid, cohesive opinion based upon visual evidence that is presented to the public.....then why present it in the first place? Isn't that the whole gist of marketing and advertising nowadays? Visual presentation to allow customers to form opinions of the product offered?
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2013
So, if someone was to flip through a D&D rulebook, look at some videos and declare, "D&D isn't a real roleplaying game", without ever playing, you'd consider their opinion on the subject valid and informed?
EDIT: And follow up question. Do you plan to play Neverwinter, even though it isn't D&D enough for you?
...and then you rebut my saying that nobody has said you can't do PLENTY of them, with a quote from somebody who said you can't do ALL of them. Which is in no way the same thing. Again, a strawman; you're replying to statements and rebutting something that's not what was said, but is SIMILAR to what was said, because you can't rebut what was actually said.
So you're actually calling me out for a strawman (arguably) made in jest about a strawman made in seriousness without actually calling out the original strawman which is the real source of this entire argument and the only trully relevant point that needs to be addressed since they're the ones making an affirmative statement on this issue while I'm just calling attention to it? Got it.
So now you've moved to "if you voted yes, you didn't understand the question".
At this point your entire position is based on intellectual bullying; trying to shout down those who disagree with you, or belittle them into no longer participating, so you can have the last word.
OK, if that's how you want to play; go ahead, have the last word. I'll be busy playing this game, along with a couple of million of my closest friends.
syberghost out
My entire position has been explained extensively and in detail throughout this thread. As opposed to yours which is basically based on an unsubstantiated "feeling" that this is D&D without adequate explanation, the presence of its logo, and/or the supposed notion that a video game that is true to the PnP rules and mechanics would not be profitable, despite the fact that this game's strong following is based on name recognition of a game that did just that*.
*and yes, NWN was technically not a MMO, but it was pretty damn near one (particularly the PWs) in terms of video game mechanics, gameplay and controls, and only fails to measure up to the full definition of "MMO" mostly on pure technicalities (it was hosted on private servers, etc.) rather than substantial differences.
So, if someone was to flip through a D&D rulebook, look at some videos and declare, "D&D isn't a real roleplaying game", without ever playing, you'd consider their opinion on the subject valid and informed?
Ignoring your apparent strawman for a moment (since you're using something that obviously IS [or at least should be] an RPG in your example, on which case the person making that declaration would most likely be wrong) I would go with "it depends on what they saw in those rulebook and videos", but ignoring the obvious trap you're trying to setup, I'd say most likely YES. Reading a D&D rulebook and watching some videos alone should be more than enough to make that determination without requiring actual play.
I know this for a FACT, as someone that used to play PnP RPGs extensively and bought RPG books--without playing them--simply on what I got from them by simply flipping through the tome and comming to the conclusion that: 1) The book I was reading was indeed an RPG, and 2) It seemed good enough or had material I could use for me to get it.
NO gameplay is necessary to make that determination. Whether the guy in your example is right or wrong it would be a different matter and would depend on the actual information on the specific rulebooks they read and videos they saw. But flipping through the book is and has always been enough, for me and just about every single RPG player out there that supports the hobby to determine whether a game is a RPG or not.
EDIT: And follow up question. Do you plan to play Neverwinter, even though it isn't D&D enough for you?
I'm not sure what this would prove or have to do with anything but, yes. I have even tried WoW before even though it was not D&D enough for me, but was about as much D&D as this game seems to be. Though, it wasn't to my preference. My current preferences as far as generic fantasy MMOs are concerned are currently GW2 and TERA. We'll see how it goes once this game finally ships.
Actually, I don't believe that the poster was sayin that their view is more valid based on it having more votes, but rather that both views have so many votes at this point that there is no "conclusive" answer given that, even if the "no" votes are lower, there are still too many of them to simply dismiss them.
Yes, this is what I was saying. There is no conclusive answer to this, because there is no "fact" in question here. It's just a whole bunch of different opinions.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I'm not sure what this would prove or have to do with anything but, yes.
D&D is not a single thing. It's a franchise that consists of multiple products offering multiple experiences. So there is not binary "yes" or "no" answer here as far as Cryptic, PWE, or WotC is concerned.
As long as they offer an experience that is close enough, they win.
So while you may say Neverwinter isn't D&D, in the end, as long as you're giving your business to them, it really doesn't matter what you say is and isn't D&D.
And they same thing goes for the dozens of other hardcore "It's not D&D" posters in this thread. If you're still here and you're playing come launch, Cryptic's obviously done it's job at making Neverwinter D&D enough.
As long as they offer an experience that is close enough, they win.
I could agree with this point, but would modify it to read "As long as they offer an experience that is enjoyable enough, they win".
However, people playing this game does NOT make it D&D. It just makes it a game that gets played, and potentially a successful (or at least self sustaining) MMO. So If we're still here and we're playing come launch, all that proves is that Cryptic's has probably done it's job at making Neverwinter enjoyable enough (but not necessarily D&D enough)--and even then, it only "proves" it if we're still here several months after launch (it takes a while before people make up their mind about whether they want to keep playing a game).
And considering that its currently the only fantasy MMO with a foundry, there's a reason for people to flock to this game regardless of whether they care that its D&D or not, due to a unique, highly desirable feature that can potentially extend a game's lifecylce by providing players the means to create their own content.
If you go back and check each page on this thread you'll notice a lot of words like "stupid" or "silly" (among others) being thrown around and directed at other posters. And they're generally not coming from my side of the issue (assuming that there's entirely such a thing, since every one has a different take on this even if we're on the same "side").
Yes, this is what I was saying. There is no conclusive answer to this, because there is no "fact" in question here. It's just a whole bunch of different opinions.
And my argument still stands. Just because there are lots of people who think x or y is correct does not mean that either are correct or false. Reality is not a popularity contest. How many people feel one way or another, has nothing to do with Whether or not there is a wrong or right answer.
If I was playing a game of Monopoly with a D&D theme reskinned on it, am I still playing D&D? It has the IP, it has parallel names. Of course, all the mechanics and rules line up with something that is not D&D (still playing Monopoly)......
If I was playing a game of Monopoly with a D&D theme reskinned on it, am I still playing D&D? It has the IP, it has parallel names. Of course, all the mechanics and rules line up with something that is not D&D (still playing Monopoly)......
Sorry, I vote no on this one.
I'm sorry but I'm afraid that you're wrong.
If WotC--the actual owners of the licence--has stated that this version of Monopoly is part of the pantheon of D&D products, who are you to tell them differently? Some people used to played AD&D 2nd editon, and that was D&D. Others prefered the 3rd edition when it came out, and that was D&D as well. Others still get to play D&D themed Monopoly and that is also D&D.
To me, this just proves that D&D themed Monopoly (aptly named "Monopoly: There and Then") is the future of D&D. And WotC clearly agrees, or they wouldn't be taking advantage of cross-licencing products with their parent company, Hasbro Inc., who clearly doesn't have an invested interest in advancing their own product line by taking advantage of the name recognition afforded by other products they own, or the power to tell WotC to shove it if they don't like it. So that makes playing Monopoly: There and Then as much a part of the D&D experience, as playing with a soccer ball with the D&D logo in it.
It is a game officially licenced by WotC as part of the pantheon of D&D products. And if a game is part of the D&D franchise, then its clearly and without a doubt D&D. :rolleyes:
If WotC--the actual owners of the licence--has stated that this version of Monopoly is part of the pantheon of D&D products, who are you to tell them differently? Some people used to played AD&D 2nd editon, and that was D&D. Others prefered the 3rd edition when it came out, and that was D&D as well. Others still get to play D&D themed Monopoly and that is also D&D.
To me, this just proves that D&D themed Monopoly (aptly named "Monopoly: There and Then") is the future of D&D. And WotC clearly agrees, or they wouldn't be taking advantage of cross-licencing products with their parent company, Hasbro Inc., who clearly doesn't have an invested interest in advancing their own product line by taking advantage of the name recognition afforded by other products they own, or the power to tell WotC to shove it if they don't like it. So that makes playing Monopoly: There and Then as much a part of the D&D experience, as playing with a soccer ball with the D&D logo in it.
It is a game officially licenced by WotC as part of the pantheon of D&D products. And if a game is part of the D&D franchise, then its clearly and without a doubt D&D. :rolleyes:
If WotC--the actual owners of the licence--has stated that this version of Monopoly is part of the pantheon of D&D products, who are you to tell them differently? Some people used to played AD&D 2nd editon, and that was D&D. Others prefered the 3rd edition when it came out, and that was D&D as well. Others still get to play D&D themed Monopoly and that is also D&D.
To me, this just proves that D&D themed Monopoly (aptly named "Monopoly: There and Then") is the future of D&D. And WotC clearly agrees, or they wouldn't be taking advantage of cross-licencing products with their parent company, Hasbro Inc., who clearly doesn't have an invested interest in advancing their own product line by taking advantage of the name recognition afforded by other products they own, or the power to tell WotC to shove it if they don't like it. So that makes playing Monopoly: There and Then as much a part of the D&D experience, as playing with a soccer ball with the D&D logo in it.
It is a game officially licenced by WotC as part of the pantheon of D&D products. And if a game is part of the D&D franchise, then its clearly and without a doubt D&D. :rolleyes:
I hope they will release a toilet with a D&D picture on it and then see you come and tell us that is D&D because it has licence and a picture.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
If WotC--the actual owners of the licence--has stated that this version of Monopoly is part of the pantheon of D&D products, who are you to tell them differently? Some people used to played AD&D 2nd editon, and that was D&D. Others prefered the 3rd edition when it came out, and that was D&D as well. Others still get to play D&D themed Monopoly and that is also D&D.
To me, this just proves that D&D themed Monopoly (aptly named "Monopoly: There and Then") is the future of D&D. And WotC clearly agrees, or they wouldn't be taking advantage of cross-licencing products with their parent company, Hasbro Inc., who clearly doesn't have an invested interest in advancing their own product line by taking advantage of the name recognition afforded by other products they own, or the power to tell WotC to shove it if they don't like it. So that makes playing Monopoly: There and Then as much a part of the D&D experience, as playing with a soccer ball with the D&D logo in it.
It is a game officially licenced by WotC as part of the pantheon of D&D products. And if a game is part of the D&D franchise, then its clearly and without a doubt D&D. :rolleyes:
Check the date on the article.
If that wasn't enough, let me quote the bottom of the article.
Here is the sum of the argument from those who deny the clear reality, that this game is D&D, by any and all objective measure:
That's really all they are screaming.
They don't like it (some don't even like it without having even played it), and because they don't like it, they refuse to call it D&D. And those who do call it D&D, even the people who actually own the intellectual property are wrong and they, the glorious fanbois they are, are right.
Just remember, the very mechanics you consider sacrosanct today, are likely to be changed quite substantially in 5e a year from now.
D&D is, never was, about rules or mechanics. That's clearly stated in just about every major D&D product, since the 70's.
The D&D game has been translated to all kinds of different mediums and genres.
It's still D&D.
Your "exclusive" taste doesn't define the brand. It never will. But you know, keep screaming and pretending that you alone defines what "quality D&D is".
This is eerily similar to the Star Wars fans who insist the prequels aren't "real Star Wars" because NERD RAGE!
Yeah fine, you just don't like them. I don't blame you, but it's still very much Star Wars you poor insignificant fanboi. Your precious world was violated by Jar-Jar, I know, but maybe grow up and realize it's just a dumb franchise that sells plastic toys to little boys?
In this case, wake up and realize D&D is a fantasy game product, for nerds to unite and delight over. I mean it's D&D, a fun, but utterly silly hobby. One that I adore, but to think there's some sanctity in it, buried deep within its minutia that NWO totally violates is just the epitome of LOL.
There is an objective truth to this question, and it amuses me to no end, that some of you stubbornly refuse to see or admit it because: NERD RAGE!!! GRRRRRR!
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Here is the sum of the argument from those who deny the clear reality, that this game is D&D, by any and all objective measure:
That's really all they are screaming.
They don't like it (some don't even like it without having even played it), and because they don't like it, they refuse to call it D&D. And those who do call it D&D, even the people who actually own the intellectual property are wrong and they, the glorious fanbois they are, are right.
Just remember, the very mechanics you consider sacrosanct today, are likely to be changed quite substantially in 5e a year from now.
D&D is, never was, about rules or mechanics. That's clearly stated in just about every major D&D product, since the 70's.
The D&D game has been translated to all kinds of different mediums and genres.
It's still D&D.
Your "exclusive" taste doesn't define the brand. It never will. But you know, keep screaming and pretending that you alone defines what "quality D&D is".
This is eerily similar to the Star Wars fans who insist the prequels aren't "real Star Wars" because NERD RAGE!
Yeah fine, you just don't like them. I don't blame you, but it's still very much Star Wars you poor insignificant fanboi. Your precious world was violated by Jar-Jar, I know, but maybe grow up and realize it's just a dumb franchise that sells plastic toys to little boys?
In this case, wake up and realize D&D is a fantasy game product, for nerds to unite and delight over. I mean it's D&D, a fun, but utterly silly hobby. One that I adore, but to think there's some sanctity in it, buried deep within its minutia that NWO totally violates is just the epitome of LOL.
There is an objective truth to this question, and it amuses me to no end, that some of you stubbornly refuse to see or admit it because: NERD RAGE!!! GRRRRRR!
No the bottom line is that you can saddle a cow or a camel but that doesn't mean it's a horse.
No the bottom line is that you can saddle a cow or a camel but that doesn't mean it's a horse.
Especially when you, the mighty pilf3r decides what animals are what, this despite the fact the zoologists and biologists are telling you it is in fact, a horse, indeed even the creature that gave birth to the animal makes it obvious that it is a horse, but you refuse to accept it because: neeeeeeeeeerd raaaaaaaaaaaaaaage!!!
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
you missed the point. Whether or not the product is real has no bearing on the point being made.
Actually, it has everything to do with the point. It shows that WotC actually cares what they put the D&D logo on, and arent' haphazardly tossing it out to every product they can for more money. This was the exact point the originial poster was trying to make, and the irony of it is that he made the exact opposite.
Especially when you, the mighty pilf3r decides what animals are what, this despite the fact the zoologists and biologists are telling you it is in fact, a horse, indeed even the creature that gave birth to the animal makes it obvious that it is a horse, but you refuse to accept it because: neeeeeeeeeerd raaaaaaaaaaaaaaage!!!
So, you would believe a camel is a horse because a zoologist told you it was? If a waiter put a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on a plate and told you it was food, would you eat it?
Ryger, your posts are the most hostile I see out of anyone here. Only one person is raging that I can tell. Others are debating, making suggestions & trying to help bust out the best D&D game possible. Just because you're happy with Jar Jar Binks doesn't mean other people want that.
BTW, they pretty much wrote Jar Jar out after the Phantom Menace. Good thing people "nerd raged", eh? I think some feedback from people who are experienced with D&D is in order for a game advertising itself as such. I don't see why that offends you so much.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Sadly, the meme was used wrong.
X all the Y
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
Comments
My mistake, I apologize for assuming incorrectly, however I maintain my position that the pole itself doesn't really add anything.
I started the poll thread and I did not include my own opinion (though I did vote) simply to satisfy my curiosity on what other D&D fans thought of the state of the game. I thought that if I were concerned about it, others were too, and numbers will help give a solid idea of how people felt the game related to D&D itself.
I personally fall on the "no" side as I feel there is just not enough freedom in the game's character development to consider it of a D&D breed. That is my opinion and I know a lot agree, but as they say, the smallest crowd tend to be the loudest. I honestly thought more people would have voted "no" than "yes", but as someone stated earlier, there is still a large percent of people who don't consider this the brand Cryptic claims it to be.
Totally agree with this. People for the most part don't think to deeply before answering a poll. Not just forum polls but any poll.
...and then you rebut my saying that nobody has said you can't do PLENTY of them, with a quote from somebody who said you can't do ALL of them. Which is in no way the same thing. Again, a strawman; you're replying to statements and rebutting something that's not what was said, but is SIMILAR to what was said, because you can't rebut what was actually said.
So now you've moved to "if you voted yes, you didn't understand the question".
At this point your entire position is based on intellectual bullying; trying to shout down those who disagree with you, or belittle them into no longer participating, so you can have the last word.
OK, if that's how you want to play; go ahead, have the last word. I'll be busy playing this game, along with a couple of million of my closest friends.
syberghost out
Exacty my point! I'm not sure how you can say this, then arbitrarily decide that Neverwinter doesn't fit your own description.
And this makes me want to ask the obvious question, something that perhaps should've been asked 37 pages ago.
Have you actually played Neverwinter yet?
With the myriad of game play, character creation and "interview" videos with game play in them.....is it really -necessary-? If you can't form a valid, cohesive opinion based upon visual evidence that is presented to the public.....then why present it in the first place? Isn't that the whole gist of marketing and advertising nowadays? Visual presentation to allow customers to form opinions of the product offered?
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
EDIT: And follow up question. Do you plan to play Neverwinter, even though it isn't D&D enough for you?
So you're actually calling me out for a strawman (arguably) made in jest about a strawman made in seriousness without actually calling out the original strawman which is the real source of this entire argument and the only trully relevant point that needs to be addressed since they're the ones making an affirmative statement on this issue while I'm just calling attention to it? Got it.
My entire position has been explained extensively and in detail throughout this thread. As opposed to yours which is basically based on an unsubstantiated "feeling" that this is D&D without adequate explanation, the presence of its logo, and/or the supposed notion that a video game that is true to the PnP rules and mechanics would not be profitable, despite the fact that this game's strong following is based on name recognition of a game that did just that*.
*and yes, NWN was technically not a MMO, but it was pretty damn near one (particularly the PWs) in terms of video game mechanics, gameplay and controls, and only fails to measure up to the full definition of "MMO" mostly on pure technicalities (it was hosted on private servers, etc.) rather than substantial differences.
Ignoring your apparent strawman for a moment (since you're using something that obviously IS [or at least should be] an RPG in your example, on which case the person making that declaration would most likely be wrong) I would go with "it depends on what they saw in those rulebook and videos", but ignoring the obvious trap you're trying to setup, I'd say most likely YES. Reading a D&D rulebook and watching some videos alone should be more than enough to make that determination without requiring actual play.
I know this for a FACT, as someone that used to play PnP RPGs extensively and bought RPG books--without playing them--simply on what I got from them by simply flipping through the tome and comming to the conclusion that: 1) The book I was reading was indeed an RPG, and 2) It seemed good enough or had material I could use for me to get it.
NO gameplay is necessary to make that determination. Whether the guy in your example is right or wrong it would be a different matter and would depend on the actual information on the specific rulebooks they read and videos they saw. But flipping through the book is and has always been enough, for me and just about every single RPG player out there that supports the hobby to determine whether a game is a RPG or not.
I'm not sure what this would prove or have to do with anything but, yes. I have even tried WoW before even though it was not D&D enough for me, but was about as much D&D as this game seems to be. Though, it wasn't to my preference. My current preferences as far as generic fantasy MMOs are concerned are currently GW2 and TERA. We'll see how it goes once this game finally ships.
I am sorry but I can't take anything you say seriously again because of that GW2 comment
I wonder what you will say in a few weeks.
Most of use have give some arguments but lately the discution is getting more personal and more agresive or is it just my impresion ?
Yes, this is what I was saying. There is no conclusive answer to this, because there is no "fact" in question here. It's just a whole bunch of different opinions.
D&D is not a single thing. It's a franchise that consists of multiple products offering multiple experiences. So there is not binary "yes" or "no" answer here as far as Cryptic, PWE, or WotC is concerned.
As long as they offer an experience that is close enough, they win.
So while you may say Neverwinter isn't D&D, in the end, as long as you're giving your business to them, it really doesn't matter what you say is and isn't D&D.
And they same thing goes for the dozens of other hardcore "It's not D&D" posters in this thread. If you're still here and you're playing come launch, Cryptic's obviously done it's job at making Neverwinter D&D enough.
Nope, from both sides.
I could agree with this point, but would modify it to read "As long as they offer an experience that is enjoyable enough, they win".
However, people playing this game does NOT make it D&D. It just makes it a game that gets played, and potentially a successful (or at least self sustaining) MMO. So If we're still here and we're playing come launch, all that proves is that Cryptic's has probably done it's job at making Neverwinter enjoyable enough (but not necessarily D&D enough)--and even then, it only "proves" it if we're still here several months after launch (it takes a while before people make up their mind about whether they want to keep playing a game).
And considering that its currently the only fantasy MMO with a foundry, there's a reason for people to flock to this game regardless of whether they care that its D&D or not, due to a unique, highly desirable feature that can potentially extend a game's lifecylce by providing players the means to create their own content.
EDIT:
If you go back and check each page on this thread you'll notice a lot of words like "stupid" or "silly" (among others) being thrown around and directed at other posters. And they're generally not coming from my side of the issue (assuming that there's entirely such a thing, since every one has a different take on this even if we're on the same "side").
And my argument still stands. Just because there are lots of people who think x or y is correct does not mean that either are correct or false. Reality is not a popularity contest. How many people feel one way or another, has nothing to do with Whether or not there is a wrong or right answer.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20070401b
If I was playing a game of Monopoly with a D&D theme reskinned on it, am I still playing D&D? It has the IP, it has parallel names. Of course, all the mechanics and rules line up with something that is not D&D (still playing Monopoly)......
Sorry, I vote no on this one.
I'm sorry but I'm afraid that you're wrong.
If WotC--the actual owners of the licence--has stated that this version of Monopoly is part of the pantheon of D&D products, who are you to tell them differently? Some people used to played AD&D 2nd editon, and that was D&D. Others prefered the 3rd edition when it came out, and that was D&D as well. Others still get to play D&D themed Monopoly and that is also D&D.
To me, this just proves that D&D themed Monopoly (aptly named "Monopoly: There and Then") is the future of D&D. And WotC clearly agrees, or they wouldn't be taking advantage of cross-licencing products with their parent company, Hasbro Inc., who clearly doesn't have an invested interest in advancing their own product line by taking advantage of the name recognition afforded by other products they own, or the power to tell WotC to shove it if they don't like it. So that makes playing Monopoly: There and Then as much a part of the D&D experience, as playing with a soccer ball with the D&D logo in it.
It is a game officially licenced by WotC as part of the pantheon of D&D products. And if a game is part of the D&D franchise, then its clearly and without a doubt D&D. :rolleyes:
Lmao thanks I needed to laugh tonight!
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
I hope they will release a toilet with a D&D picture on it and then see you come and tell us that is D&D because it has licence and a picture.
Check the date on the article.
If that wasn't enough, let me quote the bottom of the article.
The irony is delicious. Thank you.
you missed the point. Whether or not the product is real has no bearing on the point being made.
That's really all they are screaming.
They don't like it (some don't even like it without having even played it), and because they don't like it, they refuse to call it D&D. And those who do call it D&D, even the people who actually own the intellectual property are wrong and they, the glorious fanbois they are, are right.
Just remember, the very mechanics you consider sacrosanct today, are likely to be changed quite substantially in 5e a year from now.
D&D is, never was, about rules or mechanics. That's clearly stated in just about every major D&D product, since the 70's.
The D&D game has been translated to all kinds of different mediums and genres.
It's still D&D.
Your "exclusive" taste doesn't define the brand. It never will. But you know, keep screaming and pretending that you alone defines what "quality D&D is".
This is eerily similar to the Star Wars fans who insist the prequels aren't "real Star Wars" because NERD RAGE!
Yeah fine, you just don't like them. I don't blame you, but it's still very much Star Wars you poor insignificant fanboi. Your precious world was violated by Jar-Jar, I know, but maybe grow up and realize it's just a dumb franchise that sells plastic toys to little boys?
In this case, wake up and realize D&D is a fantasy game product, for nerds to unite and delight over. I mean it's D&D, a fun, but utterly silly hobby. One that I adore, but to think there's some sanctity in it, buried deep within its minutia that NWO totally violates is just the epitome of LOL.
There is an objective truth to this question, and it amuses me to no end, that some of you stubbornly refuse to see or admit it because: NERD RAGE!!! GRRRRRR!
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
No the bottom line is that you can saddle a cow or a camel but that doesn't mean it's a horse.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Especially when you, the mighty pilf3r decides what animals are what, this despite the fact the zoologists and biologists are telling you it is in fact, a horse, indeed even the creature that gave birth to the animal makes it obvious that it is a horse, but you refuse to accept it because: neeeeeeeeeerd raaaaaaaaaaaaaaage!!!
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Actually, it has everything to do with the point. It shows that WotC actually cares what they put the D&D logo on, and arent' haphazardly tossing it out to every product they can for more money. This was the exact point the originial poster was trying to make, and the irony of it is that he made the exact opposite.
So yeah, still D&D. Keep trying, though.
So, you would believe a camel is a horse because a zoologist told you it was? If a waiter put a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on a plate and told you it was food, would you eat it?
Ryger, your posts are the most hostile I see out of anyone here. Only one person is raging that I can tell. Others are debating, making suggestions & trying to help bust out the best D&D game possible. Just because you're happy with Jar Jar Binks doesn't mean other people want that.
BTW, they pretty much wrote Jar Jar out after the Phantom Menace. Good thing people "nerd raged", eh? I think some feedback from people who are experienced with D&D is in order for a game advertising itself as such. I don't see why that offends you so much.
X all the Y