I keep saying not following the PnP rules to the letter is expected and perfectly ok. But you can't look over the complete ignoring of them that was done here.
I'm aware DDO has it's problems, I'm aware it didn't follow 3.5E rules exactly, but come on, at least they TRIED. They kept AC, attack bonuses, core atributes and feat mechanics. They didn't try to be WoW and they didn't reuse an old engine for more profit.
As you said 4E is enough like WoW, if this game is gonna be WoWish even more might as well go play the original, as the original is always best.
I actualy LIKE Neverwinter, I never said once that it's bad. But I'll be damned if someone will convince me of their marketing lies when I know the truth.
Again, once you concede a paper design is incompatible with a successful digital design, then I'm not sure the "old college try" is relevant.
The fact is, paper games are designed to produce very simple math and simple linear curves, so your gaming table isn't choked with algebraic equations for every combat move.
A digital game can calculate all of that and track all kinds of states/conditions that would be a nightmare on the table. You'd be a fool not to take full advantage of that. It would be like going into the outfield and not using a mitt, "because you like to be old school".
The game contends to be Dungeons & Dragons, which it most certainly is. It has a nod or too to 4th Edition, takes its broad strokes from 4e, but that's it. That said, it is still very much D&D, in both spirit and execution.
Also, I disagree Wizards and TSR haven't reused old rules/designs for profit. My God man, there has to be what 5 variants of the "Manual of the Planes" out there? At least 3 Deities & Demigods? And does Wizards not re-use sculpts when it made miniatures? D&D has a history of borrowing things from the past, putting variants/changes to them and calling it a new product. It also caters and changes its product based on its audience or intent. When it developed a skirmish system, it invented a whole new construct of rules to support it, when it creates a board variation, certain rules go out the window. When it releases a starter set, other rules go out the window. When it is translated to a large MMO, the variation is even more prolific.
That's just solid agility with a brand, it's pretty common in all businesses.
D&D is an umbrella of products, optimized as best as the creators can, to the time/place and medium in which it is being sold to customers. NWO is just one such product under the umbrella.
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
As someone who witnessed the birth of 3e while actually working at Wizards, I can tell you, great care was taken to keep the spirit of D&D intact. It was also a widely popular iteration that SAVED the brand, (which was in dire straights at the time). I no longer work for Wizards by the way, and haven't for a long time, just for the record.
One of the reasons Paizo has exploded with Pathfinder, is because of the loyalty 3e and 3.5 produced. Pathfinder is a great thing for that reason, in my opinion, because it provided more options, more competition, which is always a good thing in the marketplace. It's currently my preferred tabletop system right now, for the record.
Again, there are those that prefer 4e, or (yuck) 2e, or insist on going old school 1e (which I have a lot of nostalgia for, but I personally find unplayable nowadays).
This is a very good breakdown of the editions, which also very sensibly includes Paizo's Pathfinder system and the reasons why this company has prospered.
There are some technical issues, you missed out what some people refer to as "OD&D" for example, but as an old player of D&D I can vouch for your descriptions of the various editions as being a reasonable one.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Please show me where are those 5 stats you speak of because I cant see them.
Exactly my point; you can't see them. They're there, but you can't see them. Because DDO disguises stuff to make people THINK it's D&D under the hood, when it isn't.
Same reason we are almost always disappointed with a move that was based on a book. It is simply impossible to replicate the limitless power of the imagination. D&D is and always has been about the powers of the mind. Expecting any current technology to replicate the happenings of your imagination will always lead to some level of disappointment.
Except that no one on the other side of this discussion is having such an obviously unrealistic expectation, but rather the very realistic expectation of seeing a more modern version of a game like the original NWN, which provided a pretty good, digitalized sample of the D&D experience, yet was a MMO-like (particularly the PWs) video game bound by the same technical limitations as this one.
So yes, replicating our imaginations in a computerized environment is impossible. But no one is talking about doing that. So the argument in no way addresses the issue.
- the changes in 3e to 4e are in no way 'larger' or lesser than the changes from AD&D to 3e. Perceptions are not facts.
- That is exactly what devs of 4e had to say: that alignment were restrictive to a good tabletop game. Hence they gae more freedom to DM unlike 3e. When 3e was released its criticism was that it took away the freedom and gave more stress to number crunching. 4e corrected that.
Its not a matter of perception, its a matter of fact. 4e is the most changed edition in the history of the game. This isn't just me saying it, but something that has been around the internet for a while now, even from "objetive" sources giving honest reviews of the game with no need or intention of bashing it (hell, saying that it had the most changes isn't even bashing the game in general, specially when talking about changes for the good, such as droping the old thac0 rules and replacing it with the more intuitive but mathematically identical combat modifier in 3e). Just Google "D&D 4e changes" and see how often the notion comes up.
Changes to classes between editions in earlier editions were largely superficial (3e mages got bonus spells based on their key stat, but the class itself was largely identical since D&D Basic) with few exceptions (3e rogues got bonus sneak damage instead of backstab multiplier, additional skill points for "rogue" skills anyone could learn instead of the class-specific skills they had before, etc.). Changes in 4e, however, were absolute--all classes were completely overhauled and radically different from ALL previous editions of the game, with extensive list of homogeneous powers that worked differently from any previous editions of the game under at-will/encounter/daily limits that didn't exist before, mages effectively lost their spells, etc.
All of these things and more actually happened. They're not just a matter of perception or edition preferences.
Eliminating alignment restrictions on the other hand, is an EXTREMELY minor and insignificant change. Especially when you consider the fact that alignment as very hard to enforce to begin with, and that players that didn't want to RP their alignment would refuse to do so regardless. Many campaigns didn't even use them since RP is largely an optional aspect of the game. My own campaign emphasized RP but many campaigns in my gaming circle were primarily hack-n-slash.
I'm also not sure how exactly 3e alignment were more restrictive than previous editions. And the minimal amount of freedom the lack of alignment restrictions could arguably give DMing is minimal and in no way related or comparable to hard system changes like classes with limited customizability, which is the sort of thing people normally mean when they claim 4e is less flexible than 3e.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
Sadly many people have forgotten how limited D&D was before third edition. They got spoiled.
Certainly the game needs a bit more...I had hoped to write up my synopsis today but that's not going to happen
But in any case NW still offers more than first edition did and only slightly less than second edition.
And please, let's not be foolish enough to think DDO is following PnP rules. Certainly it appears to be more like PnP than NW but appearances are deceiving. DDO is anything but a good representation of PnP but it in an excellent example of how stupid some translations can become. Min-Maxing in DDO is like NOTHING you will ever find in a PnP game (or NWN for that matter)
And above anything else I do not want to see NW become a Min/Max nightmare like that game.
Certainly we still need more skills and the ability to succeed and fail in skill checks but Min/Maxing like we see in DDO will break my heart just as much as Spam Bots, P2W or any other gamer's nightmare.
Sadly many people have forgotten how limited D&D was before third edition. They got spoiled.
Certainly the game needs a bit more...I had hoped to write up my synopsis today but that's not going to happen
But in any case NW still offers more than first edition did and only slightly less than second edition.
And please, let's not be foolish enough to think DDO is following PnP rules. Certainly it appears to be more like PnP than NW but appearances are deceiving. DDO is anything but a good representation of PnP but it in an excellent example of how stupid some translations can become. Min-Maxing in DDO is like NOTHING you will ever find in a PnP game (or NWN for that matter)
And above anything else I do not want to see NW become a Min/Max nightmare like that game.
Certainly we still need more skills and the ability to succeed and fail in skill checks but Min/Maxing like we see in DDO will break my heart just as much as Spam Bots, P2W or any other gamer's nightmare.
Lol this is actually so true. Play DDO and tell me how often your rogue fails at traps and the like. No one does anymore because they're all min maxed out...
I'm just a big fan of creating characters and this game is severely lacking that customization feel of dnd. Being able to be a wand wielding rogue, or a 2h warrior priest... Of course I never played first edition so I'm used to dnd that has these options. Even 2ed had the option to make a melee cleric. The devotion cleric looks like he's all lasers and pew pew.
Edit: And checking out this picture, this games just as bad for min maxing.
Without willpower, reflexes, and fortitude saves whats the point in not min maxing? Unless I'm missing something and saves are lumped with defense now?
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
There aren't any saves in the game for the most part...hmmm...you're the first person to mention that...
However most of those attributes on that page stem from the items you use. There's no point allocation on that screen so there's really no min-maxing to be seen there.
Even the main attributes (Str, Dex...Etc) don't feel half as min-maxing as even the PnP 3E rules. While it's evident different attributes help different aspects they all feel like apples and oranges. It's truly hard to judge which one will be better to choose from.
There aren't any saves in the game for the most part...hmmm...you're the first person to mention that...
However most of those attributes on that page stem from the items you use. There's no point allocation on that screen so there's really no min-maxing to be seen there.
Even the main attributes (Str, Dex...Etc) don't feel half as min-maxing as even the PnP 3E rules. While it's evident different attributes help different aspects they all feel like apples and oranges. It's truly hard to judge which one will be better to choose from.
Yeah I'm finding zero information on what each one actually does so I can't really make a judgement call. From what it seems though, theres no more skill checks (I'm assuming, or that rogue isn't going to see ANY traps with that low of int and wis), there's no more saves, so each class really doesn't even need to very. Max your top 2 required skills and you're good to go... Giving us the option to roll at the start is just kind of a joke, or even to increase stats as you level. Does hp gain on level at least still depend on Con?
To me the skill checks, saves, needing to evenly distribute your points for hp, defense, attack, and skills, is what made dnd dnd. This game doesn't really have any of that. Even DDO had a skill check system and saves, even if it was really easy to min max each of the skills. And feats to customize their character.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still happy about the game, it's just an action adventure game, not a DnD rpg.
Lol this is actually so true. Play DDO and tell me how often your rogue fails at traps and the like. No one does anymore because they're all min maxed out...
I do :P
With a Rogue/Ranger at level 5. I keep search/spot/disable/open skills maxed, have all enhancements for the level on those skills, my second highest stat is intelligence and still fail on traps or cannot even see. The reason is that we played on elite and the others were level 6 already, no chance for a rogue to disable any traps in those circumstances.
There aren't any saves in the game for the most part...hmmm...you're the first person to mention that...
However most of those attributes on that page stem from the items you use. There's no point allocation on that screen so there's really no min-maxing to be seen there.
Even the main attributes (Str, Dex...Etc) don't feel half as min-maxing as even the PnP 3E rules. While it's evident different attributes help different aspects they all feel like apples and oranges. It's truly hard to judge which one will be better to choose from.
That IS a good point...no saving throws!!
Also, from the picture I can deduce that gear is most likely the source of min/maxing in NO. I can see it now in broadcast, "Heroic level run at such-an-such dungeon. Must have so-and-so gear to be considered."
Gear is a part of min-maxing, regardless of viewpoint. So, ambisinisterr.....I hate to say it, but unless Cryptic decides that gear has no effect on combat, the game WILL end up being, and I quote,
"And above anything else I do not want to see NW become a Min/Max nightmare like that game.
Certainly we still need more skills and the ability to succeed and fail in skill checks but Min/Maxing like we see in DDO will break my heart just as much as Spam Bots, P2W or any other gamer's nightmare. "
Without willpower, reflexes, and fortitude saves whats the point in not min maxing? Unless I'm missing something and saves are lumped with defense now?
Does that mean stats have nothing to do with any of the skills like thievery? So I could build a rogue who can barely speak (int 8 or something) but disable any traps around?
Exactly my point; you can't see them. They're there, but you can't see them. Because DDO disguises stuff to make people THINK it's D&D under the hood, when it isn't.
If you open the 3E rulebook you will find all of the following rules that are listed here inside it:
Damage Reduction - example under barbarian
Ressistance - given by potions, spells and certain items
Miss Chance - rules for concelment under stealth, Incorporal under ghost type monsters and some spells
Fortification - under magic armor, spell
Armor Class - armor
They may be slightly tweaked to work better in an MMO but they are THERE, and that was my point. Tweak all you like as long as you KEEP the rules in some form of shape. I've played since 2E, you wont fool me that easy
Sadly many people have forgotten how limited D&D was before third edition. They got spoiled.
Certainly the game needs a bit more...I had hoped to write up my synopsis today but that's not going to happen
But in any case NW still offers more than first edition did and only slightly less than second edition.
And please, let's not be foolish enough to think DDO is following PnP rules. Certainly it appears to be more like PnP than NW but appearances are deceiving. DDO is anything but a good representation of PnP but it in an excellent example of how stupid some translations can become. Min-Maxing in DDO is like NOTHING you will ever find in a PnP game (or NWN for that matter)
And above anything else I do not want to see NW become a Min/Max nightmare like that game.
Certainly we still need more skills and the ability to succeed and fail in skill checks but Min/Maxing like we see in DDO will break my heart just as much as Spam Bots, P2W or any other gamer's nightmare.
NW is supposed to be 4E and offer THAT much, it offering "more than first edition did and only slightly less than second edition" is a big slap in the face.
No one is arguing DDO follows D&D to the letter, but it does for the most part hence the min-maxing "problem" transfered from PnP.
Whether you like or not min-maxin has always been a part of D&D and it's a normal and expected thing with more experienced players. Also spamm bots and gold sellers are unfortunately a part of every MMO and will be in this one as well.
Does that mean stats have nothing to do with any of the skills like thievery? So I could build a rogue who can barely speak (int 8 or something) but disable any traps around?
This is exactly the problem. In NW int does not mesure the characters inteligence and reasoning. It measures an arbitrary bonus to spellcasting. You could also be a non intelligent wizard and cast powerfull spells with just a slight disadvantage. Problem? Yup
You see, statistical constructs are not what D&D really is. It never has been.
If it were, it would mean that despite all the rule variants, expansions, editions and such, only one statistical model could be deemed as "truly D&D". That would mean 4th Edition is about to be invalidated entirely in about 9-12 months, anyway when 5e comes out. If you concede all kinds of variants/editions of D&D have been devised over time and all of them are valid, then you must concede NWO is just another one of those variants, one designed specifically for an action-based MMO.
NW is supposed to be 4E and offer THAT much, it offering "more than first edition did and only slightly less than second edition" is a big slap in the face.
I'd far rather see it launch with five well-developed classes and add more well-developed classes over time, than launch with 15, each of them with 33% as much developer time spent on them.
And as far as that ridiculous term "slap in the face" goes, if you think that, you've never been slapped in the face. Go get actually slapped in the face, and compare it to the feeling of not getting your favorite class at launch in a game that's not charging for additional classes. I assure you, they're very different feelings, with very different levels of personal involvement in both the giving and the receiving.
IMHO anybody who refers to a game development decision as a "slap in the face" should get five days vacation from the forums for each use of the term.
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castagyreMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited February 2013
I actually wonder if all of the brown books were added in how many race/class combinations 2e had. The amount of kits and variations was insane. I know, I had most of the books at one time.
Remembering Hanlon's Razor can save one a lot on aspirines.
I actually wonder if all of the brown books were added in how many race/class combinations 2e had. The amount of kits and variations was insane. I know, I had most of the books at one time.
I'd far rather see it launch with five well-developed classes and add more well-developed classes over time, than launch with 15, each of them with 33% as much developer time spent on them.
And as far as that ridiculous term "slap in the face" goes, if you think that, you've never been slapped in the face. Go get actually slapped in the face, and compare it to the feeling of not getting your favorite class at launch in a game that's not charging for additional classes. I assure you, they're very different feelings, with very different levels of personal involvement in both the giving and the receiving.
IMHO anybody who refers to a game development decision as a "slap in the face" should get five days vacation from the forums for each use of the term.
I guess we have different meanings for well developed classes. I think a class is well developed if it plays similar to it's original and is customizable, while you think it's well developed if it's shredded up to bite sized pieces Cryptic can make a lot of money on
"Slap in the face" is a figure of speech. Google the term if you're having trouble.
But you're right about one thing, I don't get slapped in RL, I box so I can defend myself but also go to debate group in my law school so people like you with no real arguments but a lot of hollow words can't convince me of their lies easily.
Misrepresenting a product is not ok, day 1 DLC is not ok, rediculous F2P models are not ok, and it is our right as gamers to stand up against corporate bs and people like you who claim to be one of us while you're actually working for Cryptic! And before you say you're not, volunteer work is just a way to get the 1 year experience requirement on you resume for that Cryptic entry level position.
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castagyreMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
This would tell you about the "core" races/class combinations and allow you to recover you old collection.
I think I still have a copy of that around here somewhere, but I've moved a few times since I last had cause to use any 2e stuff so who knows. :P
Remembering Hanlon's Razor can save one a lot on aspirines.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2013
After 30 pages of vigorous debate, I declare victory for the "Not D&D" crowd! You are all right. Neverwinter is in fact not D&D. Your version of D&D is far superior in every way!
Congratulations. You have won the day! We now release you from this arena, so that you may gone on with your life as normal.
Good, are they gone? Now maybe we can get back to enjoying our game!
Comments
I'm aware DDO has it's problems, I'm aware it didn't follow 3.5E rules exactly, but come on, at least they TRIED. They kept AC, attack bonuses, core atributes and feat mechanics. They didn't try to be WoW and they didn't reuse an old engine for more profit.
As you said 4E is enough like WoW, if this game is gonna be WoWish even more might as well go play the original, as the original is always best.
I actualy LIKE Neverwinter, I never said once that it's bad. But I'll be damned if someone will convince me of their marketing lies when I know the truth.
"THERE ARE 4 LIGHTS!"
The fact is, paper games are designed to produce very simple math and simple linear curves, so your gaming table isn't choked with algebraic equations for every combat move.
A digital game can calculate all of that and track all kinds of states/conditions that would be a nightmare on the table. You'd be a fool not to take full advantage of that. It would be like going into the outfield and not using a mitt, "because you like to be old school".
The game contends to be Dungeons & Dragons, which it most certainly is. It has a nod or too to 4th Edition, takes its broad strokes from 4e, but that's it. That said, it is still very much D&D, in both spirit and execution.
Also, I disagree Wizards and TSR haven't reused old rules/designs for profit. My God man, there has to be what 5 variants of the "Manual of the Planes" out there? At least 3 Deities & Demigods? And does Wizards not re-use sculpts when it made miniatures? D&D has a history of borrowing things from the past, putting variants/changes to them and calling it a new product. It also caters and changes its product based on its audience or intent. When it developed a skirmish system, it invented a whole new construct of rules to support it, when it creates a board variation, certain rules go out the window. When it releases a starter set, other rules go out the window. When it is translated to a large MMO, the variation is even more prolific.
That's just solid agility with a brand, it's pretty common in all businesses.
D&D is an umbrella of products, optimized as best as the creators can, to the time/place and medium in which it is being sold to customers. NWO is just one such product under the umbrella.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
This is a very good breakdown of the editions, which also very sensibly includes Paizo's Pathfinder system and the reasons why this company has prospered.
There are some technical issues, you missed out what some people refer to as "OD&D" for example, but as an old player of D&D I can vouch for your descriptions of the various editions as being a reasonable one.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Exactly my point; you can't see them. They're there, but you can't see them. Because DDO disguises stuff to make people THINK it's D&D under the hood, when it isn't.
http://www.ddocast.com/2012/09/crunchy-bits-armor-class-and-you/
Except that no one on the other side of this discussion is having such an obviously unrealistic expectation, but rather the very realistic expectation of seeing a more modern version of a game like the original NWN, which provided a pretty good, digitalized sample of the D&D experience, yet was a MMO-like (particularly the PWs) video game bound by the same technical limitations as this one.
So yes, replicating our imaginations in a computerized environment is impossible. But no one is talking about doing that. So the argument in no way addresses the issue.
Its not a matter of perception, its a matter of fact. 4e is the most changed edition in the history of the game. This isn't just me saying it, but something that has been around the internet for a while now, even from "objetive" sources giving honest reviews of the game with no need or intention of bashing it (hell, saying that it had the most changes isn't even bashing the game in general, specially when talking about changes for the good, such as droping the old thac0 rules and replacing it with the more intuitive but mathematically identical combat modifier in 3e). Just Google "D&D 4e changes" and see how often the notion comes up.
Changes to classes between editions in earlier editions were largely superficial (3e mages got bonus spells based on their key stat, but the class itself was largely identical since D&D Basic) with few exceptions (3e rogues got bonus sneak damage instead of backstab multiplier, additional skill points for "rogue" skills anyone could learn instead of the class-specific skills they had before, etc.). Changes in 4e, however, were absolute--all classes were completely overhauled and radically different from ALL previous editions of the game, with extensive list of homogeneous powers that worked differently from any previous editions of the game under at-will/encounter/daily limits that didn't exist before, mages effectively lost their spells, etc.
All of these things and more actually happened. They're not just a matter of perception or edition preferences.
Eliminating alignment restrictions on the other hand, is an EXTREMELY minor and insignificant change. Especially when you consider the fact that alignment as very hard to enforce to begin with, and that players that didn't want to RP their alignment would refuse to do so regardless. Many campaigns didn't even use them since RP is largely an optional aspect of the game. My own campaign emphasized RP but many campaigns in my gaming circle were primarily hack-n-slash.
I'm also not sure how exactly 3e alignment were more restrictive than previous editions. And the minimal amount of freedom the lack of alignment restrictions could arguably give DMing is minimal and in no way related or comparable to hard system changes like classes with limited customizability, which is the sort of thing people normally mean when they claim 4e is less flexible than 3e.
My first D&D set came in a red box. Your character choices were limited to the following classes:
Fighter
Magic-User
Cleric
Elf
Dwarf
Halfing
Magic-user, cleric and eventually elf got to pick from a short list of spells. I think there were 9 magic-user spells and even fewer cleric spells.
Every piece of equipment in the game could be typed onto a single side of a single piece of paper.
Alignment was either Lawful or Chaotic.
There was no list of deities.
It was 100% D&D. Not because of a long list of choices, but because of what the choices were.
Champions Online Advanced Forum Search
Six classes? LUXURY. My first D&D had three; Cleric, Fighting-Man, and Magic-User.
Also, we had to walk 10 miles in the snow, uphill. AND WE LIKED IT.
Well, we had it tough.
3D6 straight up, in order, no re-rolls. Hand drawn graph paper.
But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'.
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Certainly the game needs a bit more...I had hoped to write up my synopsis today but that's not going to happen
But in any case NW still offers more than first edition did and only slightly less than second edition.
And please, let's not be foolish enough to think DDO is following PnP rules. Certainly it appears to be more like PnP than NW but appearances are deceiving. DDO is anything but a good representation of PnP but it in an excellent example of how stupid some translations can become. Min-Maxing in DDO is like NOTHING you will ever find in a PnP game (or NWN for that matter)
And above anything else I do not want to see NW become a Min/Max nightmare like that game.
Certainly we still need more skills and the ability to succeed and fail in skill checks but Min/Maxing like we see in DDO will break my heart just as much as Spam Bots, P2W or any other gamer's nightmare.
Lol this is actually so true. Play DDO and tell me how often your rogue fails at traps and the like. No one does anymore because they're all min maxed out...
I'm just a big fan of creating characters and this game is severely lacking that customization feel of dnd. Being able to be a wand wielding rogue, or a 2h warrior priest... Of course I never played first edition so I'm used to dnd that has these options. Even 2ed had the option to make a melee cleric. The devotion cleric looks like he's all lasers and pew pew.
Edit: And checking out this picture, this games just as bad for min maxing.
http://s104.beta.photobucket.com/user/Darkwoulfe/media/EquipmentAppearance_zps97afa0e6.jpg.html
Without willpower, reflexes, and fortitude saves whats the point in not min maxing? Unless I'm missing something and saves are lumped with defense now?
However most of those attributes on that page stem from the items you use. There's no point allocation on that screen so there's really no min-maxing to be seen there.
Even the main attributes (Str, Dex...Etc) don't feel half as min-maxing as even the PnP 3E rules. While it's evident different attributes help different aspects they all feel like apples and oranges. It's truly hard to judge which one will be better to choose from.
Yeah I'm finding zero information on what each one actually does so I can't really make a judgement call. From what it seems though, theres no more skill checks (I'm assuming, or that rogue isn't going to see ANY traps with that low of int and wis), there's no more saves, so each class really doesn't even need to very. Max your top 2 required skills and you're good to go... Giving us the option to roll at the start is just kind of a joke, or even to increase stats as you level. Does hp gain on level at least still depend on Con?
To me the skill checks, saves, needing to evenly distribute your points for hp, defense, attack, and skills, is what made dnd dnd. This game doesn't really have any of that. Even DDO had a skill check system and saves, even if it was really easy to min max each of the skills. And feats to customize their character.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still happy about the game, it's just an action adventure game, not a DnD rpg.
I do :P
With a Rogue/Ranger at level 5. I keep search/spot/disable/open skills maxed, have all enhancements for the level on those skills, my second highest stat is intelligence and still fail on traps or cannot even see. The reason is that we played on elite and the others were level 6 already, no chance for a rogue to disable any traps in those circumstances.
That IS a good point...no saving throws!!
Also, from the picture I can deduce that gear is most likely the source of min/maxing in NO. I can see it now in broadcast, "Heroic level run at such-an-such dungeon. Must have so-and-so gear to be considered."
Gear is a part of min-maxing, regardless of viewpoint. So, ambisinisterr.....I hate to say it, but unless Cryptic decides that gear has no effect on combat, the game WILL end up being, and I quote,
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Does that mean stats have nothing to do with any of the skills like thievery? So I could build a rogue who can barely speak (int 8 or something) but disable any traps around?
If you open the 3E rulebook you will find all of the following rules that are listed here inside it:
Damage Reduction - example under barbarian
Ressistance - given by potions, spells and certain items
Miss Chance - rules for concelment under stealth, Incorporal under ghost type monsters and some spells
Fortification - under magic armor, spell
Armor Class - armor
They may be slightly tweaked to work better in an MMO but they are THERE, and that was my point. Tweak all you like as long as you KEEP the rules in some form of shape. I've played since 2E, you wont fool me that easy
NW is supposed to be 4E and offer THAT much, it offering "more than first edition did and only slightly less than second edition" is a big slap in the face.
No one is arguing DDO follows D&D to the letter, but it does for the most part hence the min-maxing "problem" transfered from PnP.
Whether you like or not min-maxin has always been a part of D&D and it's a normal and expected thing with more experienced players. Also spamm bots and gold sellers are unfortunately a part of every MMO and will be in this one as well.
This is exactly the problem. In NW int does not mesure the characters inteligence and reasoning. It measures an arbitrary bonus to spellcasting. You could also be a non intelligent wizard and cast powerfull spells with just a slight disadvantage. Problem? Yup
This is wisdom. Harken ye to these words.
Hahaha! Love the Monty Python's "Four Yorkshiremen" references, silvergryph and syberghost! Good stuff.
Back in my day...
When we'd show up to the D&D table, our DM would kill us, and dance about on our graves, singing allelujah.
I'd far rather see it launch with five well-developed classes and add more well-developed classes over time, than launch with 15, each of them with 33% as much developer time spent on them.
And as far as that ridiculous term "slap in the face" goes, if you think that, you've never been slapped in the face. Go get actually slapped in the face, and compare it to the feeling of not getting your favorite class at launch in a game that's not charging for additional classes. I assure you, they're very different feelings, with very different levels of personal involvement in both the giving and the receiving.
IMHO anybody who refers to a game development decision as a "slap in the face" should get five days vacation from the forums for each use of the term.
However CO is probably the closest base MMO for D&D4 and Cryptic do provide a very playable MMO.
Any work making NO closer to D&D4, even superficially, will be worthwhile in my humble opinion.
Keeping D&D4 players on board is probably very important; the wider D&D audience is almost an irrelevance for NO.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Wearing my old D&D player hat again, did you hear about the 1999 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: Core Rules 2.0 CD-ROM which assembled all the Core Rules for this version?
This would tell you about the "core" races/class combinations and allow you to recover you old collection.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
I guess we have different meanings for well developed classes. I think a class is well developed if it plays similar to it's original and is customizable, while you think it's well developed if it's shredded up to bite sized pieces Cryptic can make a lot of money on
"Slap in the face" is a figure of speech. Google the term if you're having trouble.
But you're right about one thing, I don't get slapped in RL, I box so I can defend myself but also go to debate group in my law school so people like you with no real arguments but a lot of hollow words can't convince me of their lies easily.
Misrepresenting a product is not ok, day 1 DLC is not ok, rediculous F2P models are not ok, and it is our right as gamers to stand up against corporate bs and people like you who claim to be one of us while you're actually working for Cryptic! And before you say you're not, volunteer work is just a way to get the 1 year experience requirement on you resume for that Cryptic entry level position.
I think I still have a copy of that around here somewhere, but I've moved a few times since I last had cause to use any 2e stuff so who knows. :P
Congratulations. You have won the day! We now release you from this arena, so that you may gone on with your life as normal.
Good, are they gone? Now maybe we can get back to enjoying our game!