As opposed to people adamantly declaring that it IS D&D simply because they "feel" that it is and/or are really hyped about this game, and many of them have never even played a table top session anyways and are only familiar with D&D through video games so they can't tell the difference either way? Or that it IS D&D because it has a D&D logo in it?
It isn't. Even if we were to take this subjective notion about the "spirit" of D&D (which no one seems to adequately express exactly what that means--just throw it in there because no one can argue with subjective intangibles like the notion of "spirit") at face value and move beyond just discussing the game in terms of the system the "spirit" of D&D is not just about "sharing stories", "adventuring with friends", or "iconic monsters" and its most certainly not just sticking a D&D logo in it and calling it a part of the "pantheon" D&D of products (whatever tha hell that means :rolleyes:).
Whatever the edition D&D has always been about:
Cooperation (Reliance on Others): D&D has always had distinct classes (ok, they almost did away with this in D&D 4e, but they're still technically "distinct" classes even if they all look alike) with different skill sets, strengths and weakness that rely upon eachother to fullfill their goals. This was done purposefully in order to force characters to cooperate and work together. The game is not and has never being about going solo to every dungeon and being able to handle the entire thing all by yourself (which is what every Cryptic game is all about).
Its about always having someone to heal you, someone that can open locked doors that you NEED to open so you can progress in the adventure or disable traps that may get you killed. D&D has never been about traps that do minimal damage because you have to survive them in case you don't have someone to disarm them on your party. This person don't have to be another player, it can also be an NPC henchman that can rent their skills when you don't have anyone that can do them in your group (or when you're going "alone").
Tactical Combat: D&D has never been about "actiony" combat. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that, but there has to be more than just "actiony" game play in combat for a game to be in the "spirit" of D&D. Combat in D&D is about terrain, visibility and lighting, cover, ranged vs. melee (not melee lunge cop out attacks--if you're pure melee you're supposed to either have a backup ranged weapon, sneak your way towards ranged opponents, or have a strong shield so you can block your way there), etc.
Out of Combat Challenges: D&D is NOT just about hack-n-slash. Its about facing a myriad of challenges, not all of which have to be strictly combat, but all of which can be integral to the adventure. This includes social challenges (persuading or intimidating a guard or NPC for information or access to a certain location), technical challenges (finding and removing traps, opening locks, etc.), lore (having the right knowledge to read special scripts that may uncover vital information to progress in the adventure, recognizing religious artifacts, etc.), finding clues (through the use of perception skills), solving puzzles and more.
Plus probably other stuff I can't think of right now.
Wrong. First of all it is impossible for the foundry provide "more at your disposal" than simply letting your imagination run wild and adapting to any given situation like you do in pen and paper. And DMing is NOT about the story or narrative--its about the challenge of adapting that story or narrative to player character choices. Not about dragging them by the nose along a predetermined path where you want them to go.
To me, this just proves that you know nothing about what DMing (or even the "spirit" of D&D) is about.
This is NOT about whether or not people "like" this game, its about whether it represents the "spirit" of D&D. D&D fans are perfectly capable of playing a game that isn't D&D and enjoying it. Whether that alone makes that game "D&D" is another matter entirely.
And you think that future editions of D&D will have anything to do with this game you're insane. This game's mechanics are NOT about the "future" of D&D. They're about Cryptic adapating D&D to their own game engine, which they use for all their games. And this is a FACT.
Well I have 160 reasons that you're wrong and just angry the game isn't a 100% carbon copy of the table top game. The game is DnD it just isn't the DnD you grew up with. Get over it.
You want a completely different game, that's not even an MMORPG. That's fine, but it's like walking into a Ford dealer, and demanding that before you'll buy an F-150, they turn it into a Honda motorcycle.
I am fine with posts like this. I am totally okay with people saying they do not like the game, or are disheartened that some 4e mechanics were not adopted. Where I draw the line is, that these subjective quibbles lead to the declaration that "this isn't D&D". This is most clearly is Dungeons & Dragons, in both application and spirit.
It's okay to walk away from NWO because the game does not suit you. It is sheer arrogance to jump and down and proclaim the game "isn't D&D" based on some pedantic, narrow interpretation of your own subjective taste.
Yeah, this is my feeling on the matter as well. I can see why people are disappointed by certain design decisions in Neverwinter, or why they really want certain features which won't be included. I don't mind people expressing their opinions about the aspects of the game that they are unhappy about. Constructive feedback is great!
But when these people just flatly declare that it is objectively, inarguably, NOT D&D, based on their own definition of what D&D is about, and present this as some kind of absolute FACT, not merely their own perspective, that's when I have to say "No, you're being silly."
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essaidisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited February 2013
I played a lot of D&D in my younger days, and I must say that for a game to have what D&D has had and have though many years, is simply not possible. People who cry and say "this game has nothing to do with D&D" are simply stupid, you want a game exactly like the pen and paper based D&D, where you will have to roll a dice for every hit and so on... You should play the tabletop version and leave your computer to die in the corner of your room, cause there is never going to come a D&D online game that has all the features that the original D&D had/has.
Whatever the edition D&D has always been about: ...
You actually make a lot of good points in this post. To me, this is the best post I've seen of all of the "not D&D" ones in all of the various threads on this topic. Well argued.
That being said, I still say that it's all subjective opinion in any case. To you, this game isn't D&D, it doesn't contain enough "D&D DNA" to qualify for the name. I get that. But I've been playing D&D for 28 years in every different form, and to me, this game IS D&D, it DOES have enough of the essence of the game I love to be properly called a D&D action MMORPG.
Neither of our opinions on this are an objective, inarguable fact. They're just personal points of view, based on what we think "D&D" means.
At the time of this post, 159 other people agree with me that Neverwinter is a D&D game. 90 other people agree with you that it is not. Clearly there is no conclusive answer to this question. I'd invite people to stop insisting that there is.
I don't care about CO. I care about this game and this game lacks the structure and the choices of an D&D. This game is limited to 2 types of predefined clases (one that attacks one that defends/heals) were the skils don't do what they do in d&d, no saves.
It's basic an hack&slash with some rpg aura on it. D&D is about multiple choices,slim differences between sorc and wizard ,fighter and barbarian. D&D is about options for different paths to one goal and options to build a character with you can relate. The spirit of D&D is not here were you just kill & got a predefined path.
And don't get me start with the feats....picking from 3 feats (exageration to make the point) if epic fail for this game.
Btw just because you bring up CO, CO is a 5/10 game maybe a 6/10 at tops. So when people bring up that game it only scares me how low the standards are about NW......
If we don't raise the expectation bar who will ?
Just as a last idea baldur's gate 1 was a game made in the 90's and had tons of content(races,clases,epic dialogs,incredible story,greath graphics for it's time etc. ) that game was a d&d and it was made more then 10 years ago. Why can't a company that makes games in 2012 cannot even get as many races,clases,game mechanism like a game from more then 10 years ago ? This is what bothers me. They can do much more we all know it.
The reason I bring up Champions Online (CO) is because Neverwinter Online (NO) is based on it. You may have no interest in CO but NO is hopelessly entwined with it. If that scares you then so be it.
A moderator, who writes/compiles the FAQ, regularly says this or that can't be provided in CO because there is no capability for it in NO.
Baldur's Gate was a rich video game, written from the ground up, for a version of D&D that was not bowdlerised into the current D&D4 format. Due to the nature of D&D4, NO is sensibly based on the CO superhuman MMO instead.
If you want to discover what is possible with NO, and you haven't bought a Founders/Hero pack, play CO free-to-play and pick an archetype (class) that resembles a D&D class.
The good news is that NO will look cool, the art will resemble a D&D world and, due to it being based on CO, it should be very playable.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
I played a lot of D&D in my younger days, and I must say that for a game to have what D&D has had and have though many years, is simply not possible. People who cry and say "this game has nothing to do with D&D" are simply stupid, you want a game exactly like the pen and paper based D&D, where you will have to roll a dice for every hit and so on... You should play the tabletop version and leave your computer to die in the corner of your room, cause there is never going to come a D&D online game that has all the features that the original D&D had/has.
Actually here are few more words - that last version 3.4.3 was released in 2003 and this implements D&D to a degree that you seem to be suggesting is impossible.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Yeah, this is my feeling on the matter as well. I can see why people are disappointed by certain design decisions in Neverwinter, or why they really want certain features which won't be included. I don't mind people expressing their opinions about the aspects of the game that they are unhappy about. Constructive feedback is great!
But when these people just flatly declare that it is objectively, inarguably, NOT D&D, based on their own definition of what D&D is about, and present this as some kind of absolute FACT, not merely their own perspective, that's when I have to say "No, you're being silly."
Well you know what they say, your opinion is only as good as your ability to defend it. I'm sorry, but this game has nothing to do with the pnp game, they're not even comparable. You have to recognize that there is a clear distinction between DnD the pen and paper game, and DnD the video game. They are not the same, nor can they even be compared because they are so different from one another.
Nobody is claiming that "This game sucks" that would be an opinion, but to discern that there is a clear cut difference between this game, and actual DnD is not an opinion in the same way that saying an apple and an orange are different is a matter of fact. Arguing that these are merely matters of opinion is to argue with reality.
At the time of this post, 159 other people agree with me that Neverwinter is a D&D game. 90 other people agree with you that it is not. Clearly there is no conclusive answer to this question. I'd invite people to stop insisting that there is.
Actually using LOGIC which is reliable and TRUTH which is absolute we can in fact conclusively answer the question.
There are a lot of RPG systems out there, GURPS, Black Eye, Vampire the Masquarade, Pathfinder, Warhammer, to name a few.
Now what is the difference between them? You could think where the game is played and what player "classes" are used. But you'd be wrong. These 2 things constitute only the SETTING of the game and can be used with other GAMES. I could lets say play in the Forgotten Realms but be playing Black Eye instead of D&D.
Extrapolating from this using LOGIC we can conclude that the game we are playing in fact constitutes the SYSTEM in use. And if we apply that here to NW the TRUTH would be NW is at best Champions Online in the Forgotten Realms and not in fact D&D.
Yeah, I know someone will come along and say "noo, you are dumb, it's D&D it says so on the box, it tells me I'm a Cleric so it must be D&D". I can say I'm an American, but if you look at my ID it uses Croatian language (analogous to system rules here) so I can say whatever I want but that wont change the fact that I'm Croatian. Lies=good marketing today, 21st century ftw
So this is more boring than watching paint dry. Could maybe you guys divide up into kick ball teams and argue about whether God exists or not. You are more like to come to agreement on that, than this and it might be good for a few laughs (for me at least). You people are never going to convince each other of one anothers view point. Well maybe one person will change their mind one way or another, but it doesn't matter because there is not factual answer only opinion and well, opinions are not right or wrong. So scream at the wind, but could you do it on a more amusing to argue topic at least?
Everything I wrote was in hopes of helping Cryptic make a good game and in the end make money.
The sad thing is forums are supposed to give feedback to devs, but they will never read any of this or take it into consideration because they respond to simple questions instead of serious matters that might interfere with their release schedule.
So I guess you're right on us wasting our breath. Sorry we aren't more entertaining to you.
Guess it's time to let this game get forgotten slowly, before it even releases and check something else out...just a shame some D&D fans forked up 200 bucks in advance because of the IP
Everything I wrote was in hopes of helping Cryptic make a good game and in the end make money. The sad thing is forums are supposed to give feedback to devs, but they will never read any of this or take it into consideration because they don't seem to care any more. They respond to simple questions instead of serious matters. So I guess you're right on us wasting our breath. Sorry we aren't more entertaining to you.
Guess it's time to let this game die slowly, like the other Cryptic clones, before it even comes out and check something else out...just a shame some D&D fans forked up 200 bucks in advance because of the IP
I wish I could say what I think on these forums, but alas I can not, however I will say this, Aristotle has launched in to a grand mal seizure in his grave over what you said in your previous post. There was no logic in it only assumption and opinion. Because what "D&D is" is a belief not a fact. You might as well come up with a whole bunch of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and say it proves God exists or doesn't. It is an opinion not a fact.
No one wants to listen to you. You blatantly state opinion and call it FACT and TRUTH and LOGIC when it is just a blowhard expounding about his own beliefs. Now I am not saying the other side of the argument is any better, but 35 pages? Really? Just go on Jerry Springer and settle it there.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
I played a lot of D&D in my younger days, and I must say that for a game to have what D&D has had and have though many years, is simply not possible. People who cry and say "this game has nothing to do with D&D" are simply stupid, you want a game exactly like the pen and paper based D&D, where you will have to roll a dice for every hit and so on... You should play the tabletop version and leave your computer to die in the corner of your room, cause there is never going to come a D&D online game that has all the features that the original D&D had/has.
The games you're looking for is the Neverwinter Nights series, not Neverwinter.
I'm the one stating opinion yet you say "no one wants to listen to you" as a fact. You should take a course in debate and learn at least how to speak indirectly if you want to have a proper discussion kid (I will assume you are one because you got filled with agression over some forum posts). If you wan't to drag God analogies into this I was more along the lines of what God is (because the definition exists) rather than does he exist (because that is unproven). But such concepts are clearly outside the realm of your juvenile mind and the comprehension of argument.
At the time of this post, 159 other people agree with me that Neverwinter is a D&D game. 90 other people agree with you that it is not. Clearly there is no conclusive answer to this question. I'd invite people to stop insisting that there is.
one thousand years ago, everyone in the western world thought the earth was at the center of the solar system. It didn't mean they were right. Facts are not a popularity contest, and the notion that your view being more valid simply because more people agree with you is just childish.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
one thousand years ago, everyone in the western world thought the earth was at the center of the solar system. It didn't mean they were right. Facts are not a popularity contest, and the notion that your view being more valid simply because more people agree with you is just childish.
When this thread was in it's first few pages, there were plenty of votes already and the yes/no was approximately tied, both around 45-50 votes. As the thread got longer votes started proportionally going to yes, first yes got a slight but definite advantage, and that advantage has continued to grow and widen.
Since the majority of recent posters are of the "no" opinion and presumably voted no, it makes me wonder about ballot stuffing.
This is like my job. Setting quarterly goals so high that they are not attainable and everyone always fails. They say it motivates people to do better, I say it demoralizes people when they NEVER succeed. It is one thing to set goals, but yours are unrealistic in the scope of this project and at this stage of the project. Find Cryptic 100 million to fund a NW2 project, for man power and you MIGHT get something close if that was the goal. However they had one quarter that and that wasn't the goal. To ask that virtually the entire thing be scrapped (expect maybe the graphics and lore) and start from scratch is not going to happen, and that is what you are asking for. How about setting some realistic goals.
Would I like to see a game that is more true to the current mechanics of D&D, hell yes. Do I think we are going to see it in the next 10 years, hell no. Damn in the next 10 years I doubt what WotC will be putting out as a D&D game will look anything like it does now.
Whos fault is that they released such a late beta ? They hidded the game from us years. If they released more info in the early days the comunity could issue this problems faster and it would be easy for them to adapt.
So again a fail of the marketing team.
But this is not a reason for me to stop talking what I want in a game
I'm the one stating opinion yet you say "no one wants to listen to you" as a fact. You should take a course in debate and learn at least how to speak indirectly if you want to have a proper discussion kid (I will assume you are one because you got filled with agression over some forum posts). If you wan't to drag God analogies into this I was more along the lines of what God is (because the definition exists) rather than does he exist (because that is unproven). But such concepts are clearly outside the realm of your juvenile mind and the comprehension of argument.
Also, you are way off topic
They all think philosophy is about talking...philosophy is about logic,arguments and concepts. Let him be agresive when he'll grow up he'll learn more about life.
So, resuming this thread :
This is d&d.
It has a d&d logo, wotc approves, so this is d&d.
If you don't agree that this is d&d, based on your knowledge of the pnp games, editions, etc., then you are stupid.
Despite your expectations of such a great licence, the only way the devs could make a game with d&d was this awesome inovative never seen before themepark. Just get over it.
No game before was able to capture the d&d spirit like cryptic did, if you don't agree, then you are a stupid hater.
etc.
Reminds me of some games forums i've seen before, like the dark and light one for example, or more recently, the swtor one...
Good luck with those fanboys cryptic.
See you soon on teso (and teso forums) everybody
When this thread was in it's first few pages, there were plenty of votes already and the yes/no was approximately tied, both around 45-50 votes. As the thread got longer votes started proportionally going to yes, first yes got a slight but definite advantage, and that advantage has continued to grow and widen.
Since the majority of recent posters are of the "no" opinion and presumably voted no, it makes me wonder about ballot stuffing.
Honestly i'd argue that the poll itself is completely pointless and exists only so the OP can go "Wow look at all the people who agree with me!" It doesn't really matter if the majority agrees or not, since this argument does not come down to popular vote.
So, resuming this thread :
This is d&d.
It has a d&d logo, wotc approves, so this is d&d.
If you don't agree that this is d&d, based on your knowledge of the pnp games, editions, etc., then you are stupid.
Despite your expectations of such a great licence, the only way the devs could make a game with d&d was this awesome inovative never seen before themepark. Just get over it.
No game before was able to capture the d&d spirit like cryptic did, if you don't agree, then you are a stupid hater.
etc.
Reminds me of some games forums i've seen before, like the dark and light one for example, or more recently, the swtor one...
Good luck with those fanboys cryptic.
See you soon on teso (and teso forums) everybody
lol, pretty much. And don't forget:
"Making a video game that embodies plenty of the PnP rules and mechanics is IMPOSSIBLE" *hides the original NWN*
At the time of this post, 159 other people agree with me that Neverwinter is a D&D game. 90 other people agree with you that it is not. Clearly there is no conclusive answer to this question. I'd invite people to stop insisting that there is.
one thousand years ago, everyone in the western world thought the earth was at the center of the solar system. It didn't mean they were right. Facts are not a popularity contest, and the notion that your view being more valid simply because more people agree with you is just childish.
Actually, I don't believe that the poster was sayin that their view is more valid based on it having more votes, but rather that both views have so many votes at this point that there is no "conclusive" answer given that, even if the "no" votes are lower, there are still too many of them to simply dismiss them.
That being said, I still think that arguments on the other side of this discussion tend to amount to "I 'feel' that it is" while those of us that say that its not have provided some pretty solid reasons as to why we feel that way. Which doesn't necessarily mean that our position is "objective" but I still feel that our arguments are stronger than just saying "I 'feel' that it is" while not providing solid, convincing reasons why this game does embody the "spirit" of D&D.
Honestly i'd argue that the poll itself is completely pointless and exists only so the OP can go "Wow look at all the people who agree with me!" It doesn't really matter if the majority agrees or not, since this argument does not come down to popular vote.
Wrong it comes down if the majority that pays agrees.
"Making a video game that embodies plenty of the PnP rules and mechanics is IMPOSSIBLE" *hides the original NWN*
See, you're deliberately creating a strawman there. Nobody has said it's impossible to make a video game that embodies "plenty" of the PnP rules and mechanics. For any reasonable definition of "plenty", there are many such games.
What has been said is, it's impossible to make a profitable MMORPG embodying many of the specific rules and mechanics that a very vocal minority in this thread have demanded. The counter-argument to that so far has been one of these responses:
1) *holds up example of game that's not an MMORPG*
2) *holds up example of game that's not profitable*
3) *holds up example of game that doesn't actually have those rules or mechanics*
4) "Is not!" "Is too!"
...or in several cases, all four.
If you are wanting them to abandon any of the following core principles, you should leave now, because it's absolutely not happening, even if you win the lottery and buy controlling shares in Perfect World:
1) Action MMO.
2) Based on the Cryptic engine.
3) Intended to make a profit.
Even if you come with $282 million tomorrow and buy 50%+1 share of PW, you won't make this game not do one of those three, because it would eliminate the third. You could switch out #1, but it would make DDO a direct competitor, which is a game you'll always lose since they have a head start. You could switch out #2, but that would add several tens of millions of dollars and years of development costs, making #3 nearly impossible.
Or you could throw in a bunch of rules that only work for a slow-advancement tabletop setting with a DM to actively restrain balance, pour money down the drain, and declare bankruptcy when you're done because you aren't taking in enough money to keep running the servers and paying developers.
Neverwinter Nights 3 would be a great game. I hope it gets made. If it does, it won't be an MMORPG. This game isn't it, won't be it, and cannot be it. If that's the game you're hoping for, you're in the wrong place. Make yourself happier; go play a game that can be what you're looking for. Don't stomp around here all angry at anybody who tells you this game cannot be that game.
See, you're deliberately creating a strawman there. Nobody has said it's impossible to make a video game that embodies "plenty" of the PnP rules and mechanics. For any reasonable definition of "plenty", there are many such games.
Wrong. There have been plenty of posters that have unequivocally stated that making a video game that embodies the rules and mechanics of the PnP is "impossible".
I played a lot of D&D in my younger days, and I must say that for a game to have what D&D has had and have though many years, is simply not possible. People who cry and say "this game has nothing to do with D&D" are simply stupid, you want a game exactly like the pen and paper based D&D, where you will have to roll a dice for every hit and so on... You should play the tabletop version and leave your computer to die in the corner of your room, cause there is never going to come a D&D online game that has all the features that the original D&D had/has.
Just a single example^ and there have been many more, but I won't sift through 36 pages of thread looking for all of them.
And by the way, the highlighted part in that post I quoted there--THAT is what a strawman looks like. A strawman is an argument that misrepresents an opponent's position "by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position". NO one has been saying that they expect this to be 100% like the PnP rules, so any counter-argument that banks on such an obviously unrealistic expectation is simply misrepresenting our position and just a strawman. And almost every "its impossible to make a video game based on the PnP rules" argument looks like that.
And very few people (mainly you, and maybe a few others) have brought up the argument that "it's impossible to make a profitable MMORPG embodying many of the specific rules and mechanics" which itself is just a blantant assumption and in no way answers the question "Is this D&D?", which is the actual topic of the thread.
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silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
Honestly i'd argue that the poll itself is completely pointless and exists only so the OP can go "Wow look at all the people who agree with me!" It doesn't really matter if the majority agrees or not, since this argument does not come down to popular vote.
When I wrote the OP I didn't include a poll simply because this issue is so subjective. The poll got merged in from another thread. My post was originally intended just as a counterpoint to a number of "This is not D&D" threads. And, for the record, yes I do enjoy it when other people agree with me. And I also enjoy constructive and thoughtful rebuttals to my opinion.
And very few people (mainly you, and maybe a few others) have brought up the argument that "it's impossible to make a profitable MMORPG embodying many of the specific rules and mechanics" which itself is just a blantant assumption and in no way answers the question "Is this D&D?", which is the actual topic of the thread.
D&D is a franchise. It's not just one thing. It's not one edition. It's not one game. It's not one way of playing the game.
Some people out there started playing D&D in 4E. That's D&D.
Some people out there still love the feel of AD&D. That's D&D.
Some people are eagerly awaiting the release of D&D Next. That's D&D.
Peole play Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale. That's D&D.
People play around a table, with Cheetos and Mt. Dew. THat's D&D.
People play via the Internet with Roll20 or Maptools. That's D&D.
People play D&D via posts on a message board. That's D&D
People play NWN and NWN2. That's D&D.
I think their might even be one poor <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out there who plays the D&D Mini game. Yes, that's still D&D.
And guess what? There's a lot of people out there eager to play Neverwinter. Because it's D&D.
The point being, there's a ton of different ways to play D&D. Part of the reason D&D has been such a popular and enduring franchise is because there's no real wrong way to play. So for people to come in here and deny that one part of the franchise is D&D is just silly.
Neverwinter IS D&D. It may not be the way you like to play it, and that's perfectly fine. You're free to play Neverwinter, or not. If it's not your cup of tea, then there's plenty of other ways to play D&D.
But ultimately, it's not doing anyone any good to come in here and argue with people that they way they want to play ISN'T D&D. But as other posters have said, if you can't accept the basic premise of this game, that it's an action MMORPG based on 4E set in Neverwinter, and the limitations that come with it, then there's nothing more for you here.
It's like showing up at a D&D table and refusing to roll a 20 sided dice because, "It's dumb. Dice have six sides."
How do you respond to that other than with, "Well, that's the way this game works."
It's like showing up at a D&D table and refusing to roll a 20 sided dice because, "It's dumb. Dice have six sides."
How do you respond to that other than with, "Well, that's the way this game works."
Actually this game is like showing up to a D&D table and being handed a pizza then being asked to use it to roll for initiative (see what I did here, because pizza isn't in it self bad but can't be used to play?).
Did I mention D&D has initiative?
Actually this game is like showing up to a D&D table and being handed a pizza then being asked to use it to roll for initiative (see what I did here, because pizza isn't in it self bad but can't be used to play?).
Did I mention D&D has initiative?
What type of pizza?
I could probably use my initiative with a pepperoni pizza and maybe even roll it before I ate it.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
D&D is a franchise. It's not just one thing. It's not one edition. It's not one game. It's not one way of playing the game.
D&D is a game. The D&D brand is a franchise--but that's a separate thing. What people are discussing here is the game and whether or not NWO fits into the overal "spirit" or vision of that game. Not whether or not the logo of the D&D franchise is there. And yes, D&D allows for a myriad of playstyles or interpretations, all covered within a single, inclusive game system that lends itself to being played different ways. This game doesn't; its just "actiony" gameplay hack-n-slash.
The rest of you post is mostly a bunch of random assertions that "That is D&D" following some random, vague example about "People played X or Y edition" which is besides the point, or "played around a table and ate cheetos" which pretty much applies to ANY table top RPG, even those not owned by WotC or using radically different systems.
And people eagerly waiting to play Neverwinter does not make it D&D. That's just a tribute to brand recognition and the popularity of the original NWN, which was about as true to the table top rules and mechanics as a video game can get, yet plenty of people here have made the blatant assumption and consistently asserted that such a game wouldn't sell. Yet the reason we have so many people flocking to this game based on pure name recognition is because history has already shown conclusively that it would.
I could probably use my initiative with a pepperoni pizza and maybe even roll it before I ate it.
lol, you could throw a slice and if it falls face up its a "successful" initiative rolls. Face down is a "fail". And opponents rolling same side up is a tie.
I am fine with posts like this. I am totally okay with people saying they like the game, or are overjoyed that some 4e mechanics were not adopted. Where I draw the line is, that these subjective quibbles lead to the declaration that "this is D&D". This is most clearly not Dungeons & Dragons, in either application and spirit.
It's okay to jump right into NWO because the game suits you. It is sheer arrogance to jump and down and proclaim the game "is D&D" based on some pedantic, narrow interpretation of your own subjective taste.
Comments
Well I have 160 reasons that you're wrong and just angry the game isn't a 100% carbon copy of the table top game. The game is DnD it just isn't the DnD you grew up with. Get over it.
Nailed it on every point here.
Yeah, this is my feeling on the matter as well. I can see why people are disappointed by certain design decisions in Neverwinter, or why they really want certain features which won't be included. I don't mind people expressing their opinions about the aspects of the game that they are unhappy about. Constructive feedback is great!
But when these people just flatly declare that it is objectively, inarguably, NOT D&D, based on their own definition of what D&D is about, and present this as some kind of absolute FACT, not merely their own perspective, that's when I have to say "No, you're being silly."
You actually make a lot of good points in this post. To me, this is the best post I've seen of all of the "not D&D" ones in all of the various threads on this topic. Well argued.
That being said, I still say that it's all subjective opinion in any case. To you, this game isn't D&D, it doesn't contain enough "D&D DNA" to qualify for the name. I get that. But I've been playing D&D for 28 years in every different form, and to me, this game IS D&D, it DOES have enough of the essence of the game I love to be properly called a D&D action MMORPG.
Neither of our opinions on this are an objective, inarguable fact. They're just personal points of view, based on what we think "D&D" means.
At the time of this post, 159 other people agree with me that Neverwinter is a D&D game. 90 other people agree with you that it is not. Clearly there is no conclusive answer to this question. I'd invite people to stop insisting that there is.
The reason I bring up Champions Online (CO) is because Neverwinter Online (NO) is based on it. You may have no interest in CO but NO is hopelessly entwined with it. If that scares you then so be it.
A moderator, who writes/compiles the FAQ, regularly says this or that can't be provided in CO because there is no capability for it in NO.
Baldur's Gate was a rich video game, written from the ground up, for a version of D&D that was not bowdlerised into the current D&D4 format. Due to the nature of D&D4, NO is sensibly based on the CO superhuman MMO instead.
If you want to discover what is possible with NO, and you haven't bought a Founders/Hero pack, play CO free-to-play and pick an archetype (class) that resembles a D&D class.
The good news is that NO will look cool, the art will resemble a D&D world and, due to it being based on CO, it should be very playable.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
One word, just one word; Nethack.
Actually here are few more words - that last version 3.4.3 was released in 2003 and this implements D&D to a degree that you seem to be suggesting is impossible.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Well you know what they say, your opinion is only as good as your ability to defend it. I'm sorry, but this game has nothing to do with the pnp game, they're not even comparable. You have to recognize that there is a clear distinction between DnD the pen and paper game, and DnD the video game. They are not the same, nor can they even be compared because they are so different from one another.
Nobody is claiming that "This game sucks" that would be an opinion, but to discern that there is a clear cut difference between this game, and actual DnD is not an opinion in the same way that saying an apple and an orange are different is a matter of fact. Arguing that these are merely matters of opinion is to argue with reality.
Actually using LOGIC which is reliable and TRUTH which is absolute we can in fact conclusively answer the question.
There are a lot of RPG systems out there, GURPS, Black Eye, Vampire the Masquarade, Pathfinder, Warhammer, to name a few.
Now what is the difference between them? You could think where the game is played and what player "classes" are used. But you'd be wrong. These 2 things constitute only the SETTING of the game and can be used with other GAMES. I could lets say play in the Forgotten Realms but be playing Black Eye instead of D&D.
Extrapolating from this using LOGIC we can conclude that the game we are playing in fact constitutes the SYSTEM in use. And if we apply that here to NW the TRUTH would be NW is at best Champions Online in the Forgotten Realms and not in fact D&D.
Yeah, I know someone will come along and say "noo, you are dumb, it's D&D it says so on the box, it tells me I'm a Cleric so it must be D&D". I can say I'm an American, but if you look at my ID it uses Croatian language (analogous to system rules here) so I can say whatever I want but that wont change the fact that I'm Croatian. Lies=good marketing today, 21st century ftw
The sad thing is forums are supposed to give feedback to devs, but they will never read any of this or take it into consideration because they respond to simple questions instead of serious matters that might interfere with their release schedule.
So I guess you're right on us wasting our breath. Sorry we aren't more entertaining to you.
Guess it's time to let this game get forgotten slowly, before it even releases and check something else out...just a shame some D&D fans forked up 200 bucks in advance because of the IP
I wish I could say what I think on these forums, but alas I can not, however I will say this, Aristotle has launched in to a grand mal seizure in his grave over what you said in your previous post. There was no logic in it only assumption and opinion. Because what "D&D is" is a belief not a fact. You might as well come up with a whole bunch of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and say it proves God exists or doesn't. It is an opinion not a fact.
No one wants to listen to you. You blatantly state opinion and call it FACT and TRUTH and LOGIC when it is just a blowhard expounding about his own beliefs. Now I am not saying the other side of the argument is any better, but 35 pages? Really? Just go on Jerry Springer and settle it there.
Also, you are way off topic
one thousand years ago, everyone in the western world thought the earth was at the center of the solar system. It didn't mean they were right. Facts are not a popularity contest, and the notion that your view being more valid simply because more people agree with you is just childish.
Since the majority of recent posters are of the "no" opinion and presumably voted no, it makes me wonder about ballot stuffing.
Whos fault is that they released such a late beta ? They hidded the game from us years. If they released more info in the early days the comunity could issue this problems faster and it would be easy for them to adapt.
So again a fail of the marketing team.
But this is not a reason for me to stop talking what I want in a game
They all think philosophy is about talking...philosophy is about logic,arguments and concepts. Let him be agresive when he'll grow up he'll learn more about life.
This is d&d.
It has a d&d logo, wotc approves, so this is d&d.
If you don't agree that this is d&d, based on your knowledge of the pnp games, editions, etc., then you are stupid.
Despite your expectations of such a great licence, the only way the devs could make a game with d&d was this awesome inovative never seen before themepark. Just get over it.
No game before was able to capture the d&d spirit like cryptic did, if you don't agree, then you are a stupid hater.
etc.
Reminds me of some games forums i've seen before, like the dark and light one for example, or more recently, the swtor one...
Good luck with those fanboys cryptic.
See you soon on teso (and teso forums) everybody
Honestly i'd argue that the poll itself is completely pointless and exists only so the OP can go "Wow look at all the people who agree with me!" It doesn't really matter if the majority agrees or not, since this argument does not come down to popular vote.
lol, pretty much. And don't forget:
"Making a video game that embodies plenty of the PnP rules and mechanics is IMPOSSIBLE" *hides the original NWN*
Actually, I don't believe that the poster was sayin that their view is more valid based on it having more votes, but rather that both views have so many votes at this point that there is no "conclusive" answer given that, even if the "no" votes are lower, there are still too many of them to simply dismiss them.
That being said, I still think that arguments on the other side of this discussion tend to amount to "I 'feel' that it is" while those of us that say that its not have provided some pretty solid reasons as to why we feel that way. Which doesn't necessarily mean that our position is "objective" but I still feel that our arguments are stronger than just saying "I 'feel' that it is" while not providing solid, convincing reasons why this game does embody the "spirit" of D&D.
Wrong it comes down if the majority that pays agrees.
See, you're deliberately creating a strawman there. Nobody has said it's impossible to make a video game that embodies "plenty" of the PnP rules and mechanics. For any reasonable definition of "plenty", there are many such games.
What has been said is, it's impossible to make a profitable MMORPG embodying many of the specific rules and mechanics that a very vocal minority in this thread have demanded. The counter-argument to that so far has been one of these responses:
1) *holds up example of game that's not an MMORPG*
2) *holds up example of game that's not profitable*
3) *holds up example of game that doesn't actually have those rules or mechanics*
4) "Is not!" "Is too!"
...or in several cases, all four.
If you are wanting them to abandon any of the following core principles, you should leave now, because it's absolutely not happening, even if you win the lottery and buy controlling shares in Perfect World:
1) Action MMO.
2) Based on the Cryptic engine.
3) Intended to make a profit.
Even if you come with $282 million tomorrow and buy 50%+1 share of PW, you won't make this game not do one of those three, because it would eliminate the third. You could switch out #1, but it would make DDO a direct competitor, which is a game you'll always lose since they have a head start. You could switch out #2, but that would add several tens of millions of dollars and years of development costs, making #3 nearly impossible.
Or you could throw in a bunch of rules that only work for a slow-advancement tabletop setting with a DM to actively restrain balance, pour money down the drain, and declare bankruptcy when you're done because you aren't taking in enough money to keep running the servers and paying developers.
Neverwinter Nights 3 would be a great game. I hope it gets made. If it does, it won't be an MMORPG. This game isn't it, won't be it, and cannot be it. If that's the game you're hoping for, you're in the wrong place. Make yourself happier; go play a game that can be what you're looking for. Don't stomp around here all angry at anybody who tells you this game cannot be that game.
Wrong. There have been plenty of posters that have unequivocally stated that making a video game that embodies the rules and mechanics of the PnP is "impossible".
Just a single example^ and there have been many more, but I won't sift through 36 pages of thread looking for all of them.
And by the way, the highlighted part in that post I quoted there--THAT is what a strawman looks like. A strawman is an argument that misrepresents an opponent's position "by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position". NO one has been saying that they expect this to be 100% like the PnP rules, so any counter-argument that banks on such an obviously unrealistic expectation is simply misrepresenting our position and just a strawman. And almost every "its impossible to make a video game based on the PnP rules" argument looks like that.
And very few people (mainly you, and maybe a few others) have brought up the argument that "it's impossible to make a profitable MMORPG embodying many of the specific rules and mechanics" which itself is just a blantant assumption and in no way answers the question "Is this D&D?", which is the actual topic of the thread.
Champions Online Advanced Forum Search
D&D is a franchise. It's not just one thing. It's not one edition. It's not one game. It's not one way of playing the game.
Some people out there started playing D&D in 4E. That's D&D.
Some people out there still love the feel of AD&D. That's D&D.
Some people are eagerly awaiting the release of D&D Next. That's D&D.
Peole play Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale. That's D&D.
People play around a table, with Cheetos and Mt. Dew. THat's D&D.
People play via the Internet with Roll20 or Maptools. That's D&D.
People play D&D via posts on a message board. That's D&D
People play NWN and NWN2. That's D&D.
I think their might even be one poor <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out there who plays the D&D Mini game. Yes, that's still D&D.
And guess what? There's a lot of people out there eager to play Neverwinter. Because it's D&D.
The point being, there's a ton of different ways to play D&D. Part of the reason D&D has been such a popular and enduring franchise is because there's no real wrong way to play. So for people to come in here and deny that one part of the franchise is D&D is just silly.
Neverwinter IS D&D. It may not be the way you like to play it, and that's perfectly fine. You're free to play Neverwinter, or not. If it's not your cup of tea, then there's plenty of other ways to play D&D.
But ultimately, it's not doing anyone any good to come in here and argue with people that they way they want to play ISN'T D&D. But as other posters have said, if you can't accept the basic premise of this game, that it's an action MMORPG based on 4E set in Neverwinter, and the limitations that come with it, then there's nothing more for you here.
It's like showing up at a D&D table and refusing to roll a 20 sided dice because, "It's dumb. Dice have six sides."
How do you respond to that other than with, "Well, that's the way this game works."
Actually this game is like showing up to a D&D table and being handed a pizza then being asked to use it to roll for initiative (see what I did here, because pizza isn't in it self bad but can't be used to play?).
Did I mention D&D has initiative?
What type of pizza?
I could probably use my initiative with a pepperoni pizza and maybe even roll it before I ate it.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
D&D is a game. The D&D brand is a franchise--but that's a separate thing. What people are discussing here is the game and whether or not NWO fits into the overal "spirit" or vision of that game. Not whether or not the logo of the D&D franchise is there. And yes, D&D allows for a myriad of playstyles or interpretations, all covered within a single, inclusive game system that lends itself to being played different ways. This game doesn't; its just "actiony" gameplay hack-n-slash.
The rest of you post is mostly a bunch of random assertions that "That is D&D" following some random, vague example about "People played X or Y edition" which is besides the point, or "played around a table and ate cheetos" which pretty much applies to ANY table top RPG, even those not owned by WotC or using radically different systems.
And people eagerly waiting to play Neverwinter does not make it D&D. That's just a tribute to brand recognition and the popularity of the original NWN, which was about as true to the table top rules and mechanics as a video game can get, yet plenty of people here have made the blatant assumption and consistently asserted that such a game wouldn't sell. Yet the reason we have so many people flocking to this game based on pure name recognition is because history has already shown conclusively that it would.
EDIT:
lol, you could throw a slice and if it falls face up its a "successful" initiative rolls. Face down is a "fail". And opponents rolling same side up is a tie.
See how that works both ways?
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.