The second one of the two might be less of a problem, but that first one would be a huge mess for syncing the codebase, meaning that when their next game starts getting the primary code focus, Neverwinter would lag horribly in getting the new features.
So is it D&D I guess I have to say yes it is but it not your normal D&D game.
It sounds like it is pretty close to the spirit of D&D4, which is the version of the game Cryptic has the license for.
This will inevitably make it not like your normal D&D game. This will probably confuse some people who might have played a more conventional version of D&D for even a short period between 1974 and 2008.
Other MMOs have different versions of D&D licensed and there is even an MMO being funded by Kickstarter for a role-playing game publisher that filled the the D&D-shaped hole that D&D4 made in the classic role-playing game market.
However Cryptic generally makes a very playable MMO and an MMO does not have to be like D&D to be successful.
Furthermore once D&D5 comes out, and NO continues to stay close-ish to the spirit of D&D4, this MMO should really take off.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
However Cryptic generally makes a very playable MMO and an MMO does not have to be like D&D to be successful.
True. However, a DnD game DOES need DnD to be successful, and DnD is more than just some names.
Let's be honest - outside of names of people and places, there's no DnD here. They pretty much reskinned Champions Online, removed freeform characters, added the Foundry and viola! Neverwinter!
True. However, a DnD game DOES need DnD to be successful, and DnD is more than just some names.
Pretty much agree with this^
And as I stated a bunch of pages burried back, we have hundreds of generic fantasy MMOs that aren't D&D already. We don't NEED any more of those. What we do NEED, is a modern (non-10+ years old) 3D, digitalized D&D simulator that's true to the game (like the original NWN was). I don't expect Cryptic to provide one (I know they just want to built on top of their effective engine), but that is what we need.
I'm still waiting for March 8-10 to get first hand knowledge on this, but in regards to ambisinisterr's request, based on what I've seen/heard so far, things that could improve what we have could include:
- Weapon Feats: Let us pick our own weapons. D&D isn't about getting a pre-selected weapon for your "build" (some people may opt to do that, but it isn't what the game is about), its about picking your own weapon of choice (if that is part of your concept) and sometimes having to adapt to the weapons you find or what the situation calls for. If you make a melee-focus toon, you still need to pull out a ranged weapon sometimes if you can't reach your enemy. No, D&D isn't about "lunge" attacks to artifically allow toons that limit themselves 100% to melee to always do something. Don't have a backup ranged weapon? To bad, so sad, now you've made yourself a target.
- Make Skills Usefull/Don't Trivialize Skills through Magic Items: All skills (Nature/Religion/Thieving, etc.) should be useful, and their need shouldn't be trivialized by making magic items that make them completely unnecessary plentiful. In relation to this players should want/need to take certain skills, such as thievering. Finding a locked door that you NEED to open to progress in the adventure is part of the "spirit" of D&D.
Don't have a toon with thieving in your group? Go find one cuz that is/should be the ONLY way to progress in the game! No Cryptic EXTREME solo friendly cop outs. That is NOT and has NEVER been what the "Spirit" of D&D is about. D&D isn't about complete solo-friendly self-reliance. Its about depending on people with different skills to progress in the game. Same with traps--they shouldn't do trival damage, they should be outright deadly and capable of killing you. Crappy damage traps so you can survive them if you don't have a toon with trap removing skills isn't D&D regardless of what game system they use.
- Custom Abilities: D&D characters don't have predetermined ability scores based on their "build". We should be able to distribute our points as we see fit. However, I don't believe video game characters should roll their ability scores (I don't even believe in random scores in PnP, but I digress...)--that just lends itself to players doing everything possible to re-roll their scores, and I would do it myself. Why get a crappy score if you can get higher?
True. However, a DnD game DOES need DnD to be successful, and DnD is more than just some names.
Let's be honest - outside of names of people and places, there's no DnD here. They pretty much reskinned Champions Online, removed freeform characters, added the Foundry and viola! Neverwinter!
So you actually think that NWO won't be successful, just because it doesn't fit yours (and a few others) purist vision of D&D? At least your consistent, you bang on STO as well despite that game being very popular and very Trek to most (try telling a several hundred hardcore Trek fans that show up every year in Vegas and attend the panels it isn't Trek) I just disagree with you, to many of us it is D&D, to many other it just doesn't freaking matter; you can't change that nor impede the success of the game, no matter how much you vent and rage on the forums.
True. However, a DnD game DOES need DnD to be successful, and DnD is more than just some names.
Let's be honest - outside of names of people and places, there's no DnD here. They pretty much reskinned Champions Online, removed freeform characters, added the Foundry and viola! Neverwinter!
However Champions Online is probably a good place to start for a D&D4 MMO but a bad place to start for a D&D MMO.
D&D4 has only ever been a "D&D-punk" game so NO only needs to be vaguely like D&D.
If NO ever became too close to D&D, D&D4 players would probably reject the whole MMO and Wizards of the Coast would take Cryptics's D&D4 license away.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
I'd definitely like to see multiclassing and hybrid type builds, however the completely freeform system from Champions Online should probably be avoided, since it's so incredibly broken mechanics wise it isn't even funny.
And as I stated a bunch of pages burried back, we have hundreds of generic fantasy MMOs that aren't D&D already. We don't NEED any more of those. What we do NEED, is a modern (non-10+ years old) 3D, digitalized D&D simulator that's true to the game (like the original NWN was). I don't expect Cryptic to provide one (I know they just want to built on top of their effective engine), but that is what we need.
When you say we, you mean you and the other five people who have been raging most without even playing the game right?
- Weapon Feats: Let us pick our own weapons. D&D isn't about getting a pre-selected weapon for your "build" (some people may opt to do that, but it isn't what the game is about), its about picking your own weapon of choice (if that is part of your concept) and sometimes having to adapt to the weapons you find or what the situation calls for. If you make a melee-focus toon, you still need to pull out a ranged weapon sometimes if you can't reach your enemy. No, D&D isn't about "lunge" attacks to artifically allow toons that limit themselves 100% to melee to always do something. Don't have a backup ranged weapon? To bad, so sad, now you've made yourself a target.
Nothing says, they can't let you choose your weapons later but for the rest, you are looking to alienate a huge amount of players.
- Make Skills Usefull/Don't Trivialize Skills through Magic Items: All skills (Nature/Religion/Thieving, etc.) should be useful, and their need shouldn't be trivialized by making magic items that make them completely unnecessary plentiful. In relation to this players should want/need to take certain skills, such as thievering. Finding a locked door that you NEED to open to progress in the adventure is part of the "spirit" of D&D.
This I will agree on and actually think they will move towards.
Don't have a toon with thieving in your group? Go find one cuz that is/should be the ONLY way to progress in the game! No Cryptic EXTREME solo friendly cop outs. That is NOT and has NEVER been what the "Spirit" of D&D is about. D&D isn't about complete solo-friendly self-reliance. Its about depending on people with different skills to progress in the game. Same with traps--they shouldn't do trival damage, they should be outright deadly and capable of killing you. Crappy damage traps so you can survive them if you don't have a toon with trap removing skills isn't D&D regardless of what game system they use.
Yep that is the way to go alright...that is, if you want to have less that 5k playing your game. let us hearken back to DDO's: Friends don't let friends play solo. Campaign this was introduced shortly after launch and the masses realized that the game had forced grouping, they thought they could cute their way out of a horrible decision, we all know how that went huh? As far as Traps go....you might want to do a couple of the delves with a GF or a Cleric before you make your mind up.
- Custom Abilities: D&D characters don't have predetermined ability scores based on their "build". We should be able to distribute our points as we see fit. However, I don't believe video game characters should roll their ability scores (I don't even believe in random scores in PnP, but I digress...)--that just lends itself to players doing everything possible to re-roll their scores, and I would do it myself. Why get a crappy score if you can get higher?
At least your consistent, you bang on STO as well despite that game being very popular and very Trek to most (try telling a several hundred hardcore Trek fans that show up every year in Vegas and attend the panels it isn't Trek) I just disagree with you, to many of us it is D&D, to many other it just doesn't freaking matter; you can't change that nor impede the success of the game, no matter how much you vent and rage on the forums.
There have been numerous discussions about how 'Trek' STO is, and the general consensus pretty much everywhere is that there's little to be had. Especially at conventions.
As for it's success, ask Dstahl how many cups were in the kitchen a year ago. You know, at the end of The Year of Hell?
STO may have done better than CO, but it is not a successful game - Atari taking a considerable loss to offload Cryptic proves it.
People claiming this is D&D harm the game more than anyone. Listening to them certain type of crowd comes in with certan kind of expectations. They feel betrayed and disappointed when they find that this game has mechanics of its own and not D&D mechanics.
It is almost the same as when the marketing was trying to imply(by not denying) that this game is a "spiritual successor" to NWN series. Such claims bring in attention, but false claims only make new players coming in feel betrayed and disillusioned and those who would have otherwise enjoyed the game are not able to enjoy it for what the game is.
People claiming this is D&D harm the game more than anyone. Listening to them certain type of crowd comes in with certan kind of expectations. They feel betrayed and disappointed when they find that this game has mechanics of its own and not D&D mechanics.
It is almost the same as when the marketing was trying to imply(by not denying) that this game is a "spiritual successor" to NWN series. Such claims bring in attention, but false claims only make new players coming in feel betrayed and disillusioned and those who would have otherwise enjoyed the game are not able to enjoy it for what the game is.
Thank you. I really really apreciate you're comment. Finally!
This game was a money grabber and in 6 months it will be just like the rest of the cryptic games...an average game at best
What they should do is delay it again ! (yes i just said that)
And remake the mechanics of the game with the data they will colect from beta + do more and more and more beta's and use that information they get from beta
Nothing says, they can't let you choose your weapons later but for the rest, you are looking to alienate a huge amount of players.
1) After playing Cryptic games for years, I'll believe it when I see it. I'm not saying that there might not be a possibility that they'll add more options, just that they saying they might do so is FAAAARR from a guarantee, and forum posters claiming it for them even less so. If we want this stuff we have to bring it up every other post just to make it to their radar... then we have to hope that they'll actually do it.
2) There's no reason to alienate players if they're given the ability to use weapons of both types (melee/ranged) regardless, since they'll still have options. Melee will just be better at melee and ranged be better at ranged. But melee/ranged weapon classifications are meaningless if they eliminate all distinction between them by making them mostly an aesthetic choice with little tactical relevance. And that's not "in the (non-system specific) Spirit" of D&D.
Yep that is the way to go alright...that is, if you want to have less that 5k playing your game. let us hearken back to DDO's: Friends don't let friends play solo. Campaign this was introduced shortly after launch and the masses realized that the game had forced grouping, they thought they could cute their way out of a horrible decision, we all know how that went huh? As far as Traps go....you might want to do a couple of the delves with a GF or a Cleric before you make your mind up.
Only if you take what I said to extremes (and maybe I frased it too harshly). Not ALL quests have to be that way but plenty should be, or at least include short cuts, special rooms and such that can only be accessed by having the right skill. And I'm not talking about end game dungeons, I'm talking about regular, ordinary adventures. Quests that require you to have certain talents to progress are quite common in D&D and the very definition of the "Spirit" of the game beyond the system.
The "Spirit" of D&D going back to its earliest editions has always been about multiple classes with different skills relying/complementing eachother to reach their goals. Not about being able to do everything entirely by yourself regardless of your qualifications. And it doesn't necessarily have to be other players. D&D has always had the concept of "hirelings" you can hire when you need someone with certain skills but don't have anyone in your group that have them. So they could include a selection of hirelings on a tavern with thieving skills, healing or tanking abilities and such at your disposal, renting out their services--for a price.
That is a very "in Spirit" non-system specific D&D thing.
So you want a Munchkin fest, gotcha.
Why, because I said I wanted the ability to distribute points on ability scores rather than random attribute generation that only leads to players trying to get the best rolls possible till they roll way above average (which is what always happens with random attribute generation)?
I Do think that this is D&D, though one issue that could really stand in the way of that for me is the lack of character customization. That being said, I understand that they must make it cookiecutter for new players and all that jazz. I just hope that further character and class customization options will be included further down the road.
On a side note, people should start writing tl;dr's with their walls of texts. We wanna read your thoughts and opinions, but I'm dozing as it is.
tl;dr: I think it's D&D, but I would appreciate further customization capabilities.
People claiming this is D&D harm the game more than anyone. Listening to them certain type of crowd comes in with certan kind of expectations. They feel betrayed and disappointed when they find that this game has mechanics of its own and not D&D mechanics.
It is almost the same as when the marketing was trying to imply(by not denying) that this game is a "spiritual successor" to NWN series. Such claims bring in attention, but false claims only make new players coming in feel betrayed and disillusioned and those who would have otherwise enjoyed the game are not able to enjoy it for what the game is.
What you are complaining about are two biggest assets the game currently has.
NO only exists because of the D&D4 and NWN licenses.
As a D&D4 licensee, NO has to advertise as D&D even thought its mechanics are actually based on D&D4. This will inevitably cause confusion.
However this kind of disappointment about D&D4 has existed since 2008 and has been quite profitable some publishers like Paizo as role-players seeking something genuinely like D&D looked for an alternative.
They should probably be advertising NO as "Nearly as homogeneous, bowdlerised and exciting as D&D4" to avoid this kind of confusion.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
And I have had to do yet more pruning within this thread.
Thank you to those who followed my request to give constructive feedback. The quality of those posts (and not of all surviving posts mind you) is what has saved this thread from The Lower Depths.
I'm giving this thread one more chance to not need any more major pruning before it goes into the depths but whether or not it goes there I will be compiling a list of the most common complaints, some of which I do full-heartedly agree with, and will try my best to bring Cryptic's attention to those details.
Let's see if we can give this a bit more of a direction to go in though. First and for-most no matter how much anybody states otherwise we will not be getting free form classes at launch. Honestly I would love to get free form classes but I am fine with themed classes for the time being. However we have to accept it will not happen in the immediate future. That by no means doesn't mean the game can't be D&D or enjoyable. Heck this game honestly isn't far less restrictive than first edition D&D in that regard so let's leave that as something we really, really want but accept it won't happen soon.
However it's obvious more character customization is needed. I agree with that and was hoping to write up an in depth feedback article today with different feedback but sadly I spent the last hour and a half dealing with forum reports...mainly from this thread...
So with the acceptance that free form classes are not on option to ask for at launch, or in the immediate future, what character customization would you guys like to see added. A few mentioned feats which effected weapon proficiency's and that I can definitely stand behind but what other cusomizations would make things more D&D?
What choices are important to you beyond the number of classes (which will grow) and the free form option of those classes (which may change but is not an option at this time)?
This is one which was both clear and feasible. I'd love to see more of this kind of feedback even if it delved more into specifics.
In fact break out the Player Handbooks and give examples of exact feats and powers which you feel are needed.
- Weapon Feats: Let us pick our own weapons. D&D isn't about getting a pre-selected weapon for your "build" (some people may opt to do that, but it isn't what the game is about), its about picking your own weapon of choice (if that is part of your concept) and sometimes having to adapt to the weapons you find or what the situation calls for. If you make a melee-focus toon, you still need to pull out a ranged weapon sometimes if you can't reach your enemy. No, D&D isn't about "lunge" attacks to artifically allow toons that limit themselves 100% to melee to always do something. Don't have a backup ranged weapon? To bad, so sad, now you've made yourself a target.
- Make Skills Usefull/Don't Trivialize Skills through Magic Items: All skills (Nature/Religion/Thieving, etc.) should be useful, and their need shouldn't be trivialized by making magic items that make them completely unnecessary plentiful. In relation to this players should want/need to take certain skills, such as thievering. Finding a locked door that you NEED to open to progress in the adventure is part of the "spirit" of D&D.
Don't have a toon with thieving in your group? Go find one cuz that is/should be the ONLY way to progress in the game! No Cryptic EXTREME solo friendly cop outs. That is NOT and has NEVER been what the "Spirit" of D&D is about. D&D isn't about complete solo-friendly self-reliance. Its about depending on people with different skills to progress in the game. Same with traps--they shouldn't do trival damage, they should be outright deadly and capable of killing you. Crappy damage traps so you can survive them if you don't have a toon with trap removing skills isn't D&D regardless of what game system they use.
- Custom Abilities: D&D characters don't have predetermined ability scores based on their "build". We should be able to distribute our points as we see fit. However, I don't believe video game characters should roll their ability scores (I don't even believe in random scores in PnP, but I digress...)--that just lends itself to players doing everything possible to re-roll their scores, and I would do it myself. Why get a crappy score if you can get higher?
So, what customization will make this game more D&D?
*A note on weapons: There have been reports in the Beta Forums that players have found a few weapons which weren't the common standards we have seen on the classes yet included axes. Remember we are still in closed Beta...the type of weapon is not important to test the classes so I have full faith more weapons will be released as launch approaches. It's simply not important to be in the game during testing and therefore will be added later.*
So, what customization will make this game more D&D?
To make the game more like D&D4, which is what Cryptic holds the license for, the customisation needs to be relative to the customisation available in the D&D4 Core Rule books, relative to the D&D4-like system NO is currently providing.
Any changes will probably have to be cleared with Wizards of the Coast and the development would have to done, both of which take time and both of which has their own veto. I'd recommend people think about the absolute minimum of changes needed.
Making the game more like D&D is a dead end because Cryptic only holds the license for D&D4 so this can't happen.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
Correction: they do not hold a licence for any one edition.
Cryptic has taken inspiration from multiple different editions in order to develop the game, it is just more heavily based on fourth edition over other editions.
Andy stated this during Aandre the Giant's lastest NOCS. So in theory you are free to suggest anything.
However this line is essential: I'd recommend people think about the absolute minimum of changes needed.
I'm not being a stickler saying don't bother suggesting Free Form Classes just to be a stickler. It's simply out of the question in the time frame there is until the game's launch. So with that it's better to think about the absolute most important details, focus on them, and of course push for the big goals along the way.
Correction: they do not hold a licence for any one edition.
Cryptic has taken inspiration from multiple different editions in order to develop the game, it is just more heavily based on fourth edition over other editions.
Andy stated this during Aandre the Giant's lastest NOCS. So in theory you are free to suggest anything.
I probably should report that the actual Podcast has been disabled by the people hosting because of too many people downloading it. A host other than Dropbox is needed, one prepared to have a whole forum full of people download a gig's worth of file.
As described the game mechanics are clearly based on D&D4 at the moment and to mix D&D4 with D&D would be disastrous because Cryptic would risk upsetting everyone.
Once D&D5 comes out Cryptic should really benefit from NO being close enough to D&D4. Refugees will come here, hearing that there is a place to play D&D4 untainted by the non-homogenised, non-pasteurised, more distinctive aspects of D&D.
I'm not being a stickler saying don't bother suggesting Free Form Classes just to be a stickler. It's simply out of the question in the time frame there is until the game's launch. So with that it's better to think about the absolute most important details, focus on them, and of course push for the big goals along the way.
Freeform in a D&D4 MMO is a real non-starter, for obvious reasons.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
In pen and paper D&D: A fortress of enemy bandits holds the only bridge across the nearby river, what do you do?
-Fight your way through
-Go around, try and cross the river
-Pick off a few foraging bandits outside the fortress, tie them up and use their clothing as disguises
-Use your various charisma related skills to convince them to let you through with a small-sizable bribe.
-Go back to the nearest town, gather a mob of villagers by convincing them to fight back and take them to battle the bandits at the fortress
The list goes on.
That same scenario in Neverwinter Nights: The MMO:
-Kill the bandits and fight your way through
-turn off the game
Sorry, but anyone who truly thinks this game is anything like the old D&D is wrong. D&D wasn't about the number crunching, sure enough. It was about being confronted with an obstacle and using your wits and imagination to think up the best way to overcome that obstacle. Now while I wouldn't expect a computer game to compare to the pen and paper game in this regard, they could at least come half way and allow for multiple choices in how to overcome an obstacle, as it stands, this looks less like a DnD game, and more like Diablo 3 zoomed all the way in.
How about just having a system where you have four, five skills like: Craft, Acrobatics, Intrigue, Knowledge and Diplomacy that combine any relevant skill from the old pen and paper game (Intrigue would be things like disguises or forgery or pick pocketing for example) These skills would start with a certain number of points based on your primary stats like the Pap (Pen and paper) game and maybe every two levels you could add another 3-5 and every so often in a dungeon you could be confronted with a non combat obstacle that you could choose from a number of option to overcome that would depend on these rolls. Sure it doesn't match the Pap version, but for god's sake it'd be SOMETHING!
Correction: they do not hold a licence for any one edition.
Cryptic has taken inspiration from multiple different editions in order to develop the game, it is just more heavily based on fourth edition over other editions.
Andy stated this during Aandre the Giant's lastest NOCS. So in theory you are free to suggest anything.
However this line is essential: I'd recommend people think about the absolute minimum of changes needed.
I'm not being a stickler saying don't bother suggesting Free Form Classes just to be a stickler. It's simply out of the question in the time frame there is until the game's launch. So with that it's better to think about the absolute most important details, focus on them, and of course push for the big goals along the way.
I got to the dropbox in the nick of time and noted a few things we can actually expect.
One is that retooling the code at this point isn't going to happen. It was pretty far back into the process that certain processes as far as combat interaction were modeled, too far to be anything but a, "after launch" maybe.
If additional factors can be locked into affects that originate outside the few choices in customization a degree of variation in progression should be possible, so we could see tweaks from alignment, deities, and enhanced gear.
What seems possible but doesn't get much traction is the open traverse-able areas. So much would then be possible in the user created foundry adventures.
Just because a game has the license of a saga it doesn't make up for the bad decisions of the developers.
I'm gonna try the game but i don't want to spend money for a average mmo...it better be epic.
The biggest problem is that 99% of developers nowdays are like : "lets do something different..."
Why don't you just get the old stuff that worked and upgrade it.
Please make it a d&d before release cryptic. I waited years for this game and got some hopes about it.
From my perspective a game that will be marketed not only as D&D but as Neverwinter has a lot to live up to. Players will be coming to this game with very high expectations. Perhaps Cryptic did themselves a disservice by choosing Neverwinter as the name and they should have called it Forgotten Realms Online, but that is beside the point.
The nearly complete lack of character customization is a glaring issue that needs to be address prior to launch (and its status updated regularly). Why you ask? Because those players who come to the game expecting it to be D&D with the full character customization that they are used to will not be happy. Hate and vitrol can hurt a game. By issuing a statement that Cryptic knows that some players are wanting a more Core Rules variant of the various classes vs the pregenerated templates and that they are working on an alternative could go far to postpone that vitrol and hate at launch. (( By addressed I mean some kind of statement of intent to include))
Since Truth sees the term Freeflow as totally classless boundaries I am now wording it as Core Rules. Core Rules means that you purchase either the Core Rules Pack or the Core Rules Class X and then can build a character who then can choose powers/feats/etc based on those available to that Class. With a Core Rules Option Races also could become much more attractive to purchase as most races come with optional powers that could be taken at character creation. (A Tiefling warlock could take Infernal Wrath for example). Yes, this system would take work, and I (Not sure about everyone, can only speak for myself) would be very willing to wait for it to come to live play. So by having a Core Rules option for character customization Cryptic would be more in line with what some D&D Players will be expecting and possibly bypass the rage/hate/vitrol as well as gaining more players.
Avatar Customization (the way you look) needs further cryptic updating as well. Since the game was announced all we have heard is how Cryptic set the bar at this (and Indeed, both CO and STO rock with avatar customization). No Horn choice for tieflings, few eye choices at all, body types are not very different, etc. The list is huge and needs fixing.
Now why do I think a core rules option is needed? When I talk to my fellow DDO players they get really interested in NW, but when they ask about classes and I explained how they are suggested templates like Guardian Fighter, Trickster Rogue, etc. they were much less excited. The conversation invariably gets worse as customization questions are asked. "Can my fighter dual wield?" No. "Can my fighter use a 2h sword?" Not until Great Weapon fighter comes out. "Can my rogue use a rapier?" No "can my rogue use a shortsword?" no. "Can I use a bow?" Not unless they make an archer. etc. When players come to this game at launch and see how limited the game actually is as far as Character customization is - there will be a LOT of vitrol spewed. That can harm a game.
I do not want to see NW go the way of other games. DDO is over 6 years old, its population has dropped from many issues in the past to the point it is barely alive today. We need a good D&D MMO, NW has the potential to be that MMO. The foundry will keep one of the major issues with DDO from happening here (Remember the year of zero updates?). Those who played DDO and left because of the Turbine issues will be trying this out - most of them really enjoyed the fact that DDO had close to PnP character customization, they will not be happy here and they could be with the inclusion of a Core Rule option.
I would also be willing to wait. Heck if they get the d&d 4e rules and mechanics in there i will buy the game the next second.
Btw did you guys see this ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihUOIUzFD0
They said no superpowers and spell like to fighter. That do we get some gold flashy mid air shields that look just like a spell...really ?
D&D is very realistic when it comes to fighter class
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desdain01Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 18Arc User
So, what customization will make this game more D&D?
Every class should have options to change weapons and offensive/defensive stances (drop 2H sword and pick up sword and board for example) depending on the circumstances of a given fight.
Let's say I design a mission like so:
The party is in an ancient crypt. The party are wounded from previous encounters and have finally made their way to the final tomb where they encounter a skeletal knight with a number of skeletal archers. The archers are in raised positions allowing them to fire on anyone in the room without providing an easy means for the characters to engage in melee. Meanwhile the knight bears a 2Hder and deals out heavy damage in melee. In order to manage this encounter the players need to adapt rather than just zerg in. Fighters need to use shields to fend off the archers while engaging the knight. The other players need to use cover and ranged attacks to deal with the archers.
In this scenario in an actual D&D game any fighter character that could not use a shield to engage the knight would likely die. So he either fights while taking a lot of damage from archers or uses ranged and fights the archers from behind cover.
In NO, the GWF seems only to have the option to engage the knight (suffering heavy damage and risking death) or to hide behind cover. He can't use a shield even if he had one in his inventory.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Class selection having more freedom is discussed on the NOCS as well as a lot of other stuff. Please go here for the link to download or listen to it.
D&D rules are constantly changing, but its lore (such as deities and races and stuff) is the one thing that gets expanded on and really "kept".
That said, if this game did NOT have the title of D&D with it, would people consider it a game worth playing? Like if this was a brand new IP, would people in general be able to appreciate the mechanics a little bit more and not be biased due to the D&D label on it?
i would play it without the D&D name.i am currently on a action mmo kick and i mostly play pwe games.the most i know of D&D was the cartoon as a child and a couple non-D&D games that used D&D rules,like i think knights of old republic 1&2 did.
i am looking foward to playing with D&D community because from what i have read in forums,you guys seem to be a bit more mature than gaming crowd i am use to.that would be a nice change.
So with the acceptance that free form classes are not on option to ask for at launch, or in the immediate future, what character customization would you guys like to see added.
So, in order for it to be "constructive," it now has to be able to be done within six months or it can't be discussed?
Look, the game started Closed Beta - anyone who's been around Crytpic's betas knows that what we see is pretty much what we're getting at launch. Nobody here is saying that the changes we would like to see have to come at launch, only that these are the changes you should make if you want anyone to believe it's a real Dungeons and Dragons game.
I don't expect any changes to be made at all. Cryptic has proven time and again that they'll take the path of least resistance when it comes to their games, and actually putting DnD into a DnD game is much harder than just reskinning Champions. However, you can't sit here and say that it isn't constructive suggestion if it can't be done by launch or immediately thereafter.
The biggest problem is that 99% of developers nowdays are like : "lets do something different..."
Why don't you just get the old stuff that worked and upgrade it.
Because there's always somebody else with more money, and you can never win that unless you're that guy. If you successfully take users away from the old stuff, then the guys with more money upgrade that beyond what you can achieve, and why would anybody play your version? So, you do something different, and hope people like it. If enough do, you succeed.
Cryptic succeeded with City of Heroes, failed with Champions Online (because they tried to make a better City of Heroes, although admittedly this was an externally-induced problem when Marvel pulled out, because "City of Heroes with a top tier IP" would have been sufficiently different), and succeeded with Star Trek Online.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see if they can succeed with "medieval fantasy + action combat + state of the art cosmetic customization + state of the art chat + the only MF IP that's bigger than Warcraft". I think that's a sufficiently unique combination that it can succeed; "it's like DDO but with better graphics" isn't.
Class selection having more freedom is discussed on the NOCS as well as a lot of other stuff. Please go here for the link to download or listen to it.
If they would have released beta earlyer all the fans oppinions would have reached them before they would have made so much of the game. At least they are flexible enough to consider what the fans say..
Alpha & Beta with the fans they use the feedback => succesfull game
I forgot to add the most important part: "with beyond state of the art UGC".
Because nobody else even seriously TRIES to do UGC in MMORPGs other than Cryptic. City of Heroes Architect was basically Foundry version 0.1; it grew out of the same basic tools, with many of the same coders.
Comments
Those changes would likely greatly complicate future codebase merges, delaying development. Here's a graphic by TacoFangs explaining their model:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8109/8470443397_93a77be460_o.jpg
The second one of the two might be less of a problem, but that first one would be a huge mess for syncing the codebase, meaning that when their next game starts getting the primary code focus, Neverwinter would lag horribly in getting the new features.
It sounds like it is pretty close to the spirit of D&D4, which is the version of the game Cryptic has the license for.
This will inevitably make it not like your normal D&D game. This will probably confuse some people who might have played a more conventional version of D&D for even a short period between 1974 and 2008.
Other MMOs have different versions of D&D licensed and there is even an MMO being funded by Kickstarter for a role-playing game publisher that filled the the D&D-shaped hole that D&D4 made in the classic role-playing game market.
However Cryptic generally makes a very playable MMO and an MMO does not have to be like D&D to be successful.
Furthermore once D&D5 comes out, and NO continues to stay close-ish to the spirit of D&D4, this MMO should really take off.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
True. However, a DnD game DOES need DnD to be successful, and DnD is more than just some names.
Let's be honest - outside of names of people and places, there's no DnD here. They pretty much reskinned Champions Online, removed freeform characters, added the Foundry and viola! Neverwinter!
Pretty much agree with this^
And as I stated a bunch of pages burried back, we have hundreds of generic fantasy MMOs that aren't D&D already. We don't NEED any more of those. What we do NEED, is a modern (non-10+ years old) 3D, digitalized D&D simulator that's true to the game (like the original NWN was). I don't expect Cryptic to provide one (I know they just want to built on top of their effective engine), but that is what we need.
I'm still waiting for March 8-10 to get first hand knowledge on this, but in regards to ambisinisterr's request, based on what I've seen/heard so far, things that could improve what we have could include:
- Weapon Feats: Let us pick our own weapons. D&D isn't about getting a pre-selected weapon for your "build" (some people may opt to do that, but it isn't what the game is about), its about picking your own weapon of choice (if that is part of your concept) and sometimes having to adapt to the weapons you find or what the situation calls for. If you make a melee-focus toon, you still need to pull out a ranged weapon sometimes if you can't reach your enemy. No, D&D isn't about "lunge" attacks to artifically allow toons that limit themselves 100% to melee to always do something. Don't have a backup ranged weapon? To bad, so sad, now you've made yourself a target.
- Make Skills Usefull/Don't Trivialize Skills through Magic Items: All skills (Nature/Religion/Thieving, etc.) should be useful, and their need shouldn't be trivialized by making magic items that make them completely unnecessary plentiful. In relation to this players should want/need to take certain skills, such as thievering. Finding a locked door that you NEED to open to progress in the adventure is part of the "spirit" of D&D.
Don't have a toon with thieving in your group? Go find one cuz that is/should be the ONLY way to progress in the game! No Cryptic EXTREME solo friendly cop outs. That is NOT and has NEVER been what the "Spirit" of D&D is about. D&D isn't about complete solo-friendly self-reliance. Its about depending on people with different skills to progress in the game. Same with traps--they shouldn't do trival damage, they should be outright deadly and capable of killing you. Crappy damage traps so you can survive them if you don't have a toon with trap removing skills isn't D&D regardless of what game system they use.
- Custom Abilities: D&D characters don't have predetermined ability scores based on their "build". We should be able to distribute our points as we see fit. However, I don't believe video game characters should roll their ability scores (I don't even believe in random scores in PnP, but I digress...)--that just lends itself to players doing everything possible to re-roll their scores, and I would do it myself. Why get a crappy score if you can get higher?
- Probably other stuff I can't think of right now
So you actually think that NWO won't be successful, just because it doesn't fit yours (and a few others) purist vision of D&D? At least your consistent, you bang on STO as well despite that game being very popular and very Trek to most (try telling a several hundred hardcore Trek fans that show up every year in Vegas and attend the panels it isn't Trek) I just disagree with you, to many of us it is D&D, to many other it just doesn't freaking matter; you can't change that nor impede the success of the game, no matter how much you vent and rage on the forums.
However Champions Online is probably a good place to start for a D&D4 MMO but a bad place to start for a D&D MMO.
D&D4 has only ever been a "D&D-punk" game so NO only needs to be vaguely like D&D.
If NO ever became too close to D&D, D&D4 players would probably reject the whole MMO and Wizards of the Coast would take Cryptics's D&D4 license away.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
When you say we, you mean you and the other five people who have been raging most without even playing the game right?
Speaks volumes right here.
Nothing says, they can't let you choose your weapons later but for the rest, you are looking to alienate a huge amount of players.
This I will agree on and actually think they will move towards.
Yep that is the way to go alright...that is, if you want to have less that 5k playing your game. let us hearken back to DDO's: Friends don't let friends play solo. Campaign this was introduced shortly after launch and the masses realized that the game had forced grouping, they thought they could cute their way out of a horrible decision, we all know how that went huh? As far as Traps go....you might want to do a couple of the delves with a GF or a Cleric before you make your mind up.
So you want a Munchkin fest, gotcha.
The game may be quite successful, but that won't change the fact that it isn't a D&D MMO with no D&D.
There have been numerous discussions about how 'Trek' STO is, and the general consensus pretty much everywhere is that there's little to be had. Especially at conventions.
As for it's success, ask Dstahl how many cups were in the kitchen a year ago. You know, at the end of The Year of Hell?
STO may have done better than CO, but it is not a successful game - Atari taking a considerable loss to offload Cryptic proves it.
It is almost the same as when the marketing was trying to imply(by not denying) that this game is a "spiritual successor" to NWN series. Such claims bring in attention, but false claims only make new players coming in feel betrayed and disillusioned and those who would have otherwise enjoyed the game are not able to enjoy it for what the game is.
Thank you. I really really apreciate you're comment. Finally!
This game was a money grabber and in 6 months it will be just like the rest of the cryptic games...an average game at best
What they should do is delay it again ! (yes i just said that)
And remake the mechanics of the game with the data they will colect from beta + do more and more and more beta's and use that information they get from beta
1) After playing Cryptic games for years, I'll believe it when I see it. I'm not saying that there might not be a possibility that they'll add more options, just that they saying they might do so is FAAAARR from a guarantee, and forum posters claiming it for them even less so. If we want this stuff we have to bring it up every other post just to make it to their radar... then we have to hope that they'll actually do it.
2) There's no reason to alienate players if they're given the ability to use weapons of both types (melee/ranged) regardless, since they'll still have options. Melee will just be better at melee and ranged be better at ranged. But melee/ranged weapon classifications are meaningless if they eliminate all distinction between them by making them mostly an aesthetic choice with little tactical relevance. And that's not "in the (non-system specific) Spirit" of D&D.
Only if you take what I said to extremes (and maybe I frased it too harshly). Not ALL quests have to be that way but plenty should be, or at least include short cuts, special rooms and such that can only be accessed by having the right skill. And I'm not talking about end game dungeons, I'm talking about regular, ordinary adventures. Quests that require you to have certain talents to progress are quite common in D&D and the very definition of the "Spirit" of the game beyond the system.
The "Spirit" of D&D going back to its earliest editions has always been about multiple classes with different skills relying/complementing eachother to reach their goals. Not about being able to do everything entirely by yourself regardless of your qualifications. And it doesn't necessarily have to be other players. D&D has always had the concept of "hirelings" you can hire when you need someone with certain skills but don't have anyone in your group that have them. So they could include a selection of hirelings on a tavern with thieving skills, healing or tanking abilities and such at your disposal, renting out their services--for a price.
That is a very "in Spirit" non-system specific D&D thing.
Why, because I said I wanted the ability to distribute points on ability scores rather than random attribute generation that only leads to players trying to get the best rolls possible till they roll way above average (which is what always happens with random attribute generation)?
On a side note, people should start writing tl;dr's with their walls of texts. We wanna read your thoughts and opinions, but I'm dozing as it is.
tl;dr: I think it's D&D, but I would appreciate further customization capabilities.
What you are complaining about are two biggest assets the game currently has.
NO only exists because of the D&D4 and NWN licenses.
As a D&D4 licensee, NO has to advertise as D&D even thought its mechanics are actually based on D&D4. This will inevitably cause confusion.
However this kind of disappointment about D&D4 has existed since 2008 and has been quite profitable some publishers like Paizo as role-players seeking something genuinely like D&D looked for an alternative.
They should probably be advertising NO as "Nearly as homogeneous, bowdlerised and exciting as D&D4" to avoid this kind of confusion.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Thank you to those who followed my request to give constructive feedback. The quality of those posts (and not of all surviving posts mind you) is what has saved this thread from The Lower Depths.
I'm giving this thread one more chance to not need any more major pruning before it goes into the depths but whether or not it goes there I will be compiling a list of the most common complaints, some of which I do full-heartedly agree with, and will try my best to bring Cryptic's attention to those details.
Let's see if we can give this a bit more of a direction to go in though. First and for-most no matter how much anybody states otherwise we will not be getting free form classes at launch. Honestly I would love to get free form classes but I am fine with themed classes for the time being. However we have to accept it will not happen in the immediate future. That by no means doesn't mean the game can't be D&D or enjoyable. Heck this game honestly isn't far less restrictive than first edition D&D in that regard so let's leave that as something we really, really want but accept it won't happen soon.
However it's obvious more character customization is needed. I agree with that and was hoping to write up an in depth feedback article today with different feedback but sadly I spent the last hour and a half dealing with forum reports...mainly from this thread...
So with the acceptance that free form classes are not on option to ask for at launch, or in the immediate future, what character customization would you guys like to see added. A few mentioned feats which effected weapon proficiency's and that I can definitely stand behind but what other cusomizations would make things more D&D?
What choices are important to you beyond the number of classes (which will grow) and the free form option of those classes (which may change but is not an option at this time)?
This is one which was both clear and feasible. I'd love to see more of this kind of feedback even if it delved more into specifics.
In fact break out the Player Handbooks and give examples of exact feats and powers which you feel are needed.
So, what customization will make this game more D&D?
*A note on weapons: There have been reports in the Beta Forums that players have found a few weapons which weren't the common standards we have seen on the classes yet included axes. Remember we are still in closed Beta...the type of weapon is not important to test the classes so I have full faith more weapons will be released as launch approaches. It's simply not important to be in the game during testing and therefore will be added later.*
To make the game more like D&D4, which is what Cryptic holds the license for, the customisation needs to be relative to the customisation available in the D&D4 Core Rule books, relative to the D&D4-like system NO is currently providing.
Any changes will probably have to be cleared with Wizards of the Coast and the development would have to done, both of which take time and both of which has their own veto. I'd recommend people think about the absolute minimum of changes needed.
Making the game more like D&D is a dead end because Cryptic only holds the license for D&D4 so this can't happen.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Cryptic has taken inspiration from multiple different editions in order to develop the game, it is just more heavily based on fourth edition over other editions.
Andy stated this during Aandre the Giant's lastest NOCS. So in theory you are free to suggest anything.
However this line is essential: I'd recommend people think about the absolute minimum of changes needed.
I'm not being a stickler saying don't bother suggesting Free Form Classes just to be a stickler. It's simply out of the question in the time frame there is until the game's launch. So with that it's better to think about the absolute most important details, focus on them, and of course push for the big goals along the way.
I probably should report that the actual Podcast has been disabled by the people hosting because of too many people downloading it. A host other than Dropbox is needed, one prepared to have a whole forum full of people download a gig's worth of file.
As described the game mechanics are clearly based on D&D4 at the moment and to mix D&D4 with D&D would be disastrous because Cryptic would risk upsetting everyone.
Once D&D5 comes out Cryptic should really benefit from NO being close enough to D&D4. Refugees will come here, hearing that there is a place to play D&D4 untainted by the non-homogenised, non-pasteurised, more distinctive aspects of D&D.
Freeform in a D&D4 MMO is a real non-starter, for obvious reasons.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
-Fight your way through
-Go around, try and cross the river
-Pick off a few foraging bandits outside the fortress, tie them up and use their clothing as disguises
-Use your various charisma related skills to convince them to let you through with a small-sizable bribe.
-Go back to the nearest town, gather a mob of villagers by convincing them to fight back and take them to battle the bandits at the fortress
The list goes on.
That same scenario in Neverwinter Nights: The MMO:
-Kill the bandits and fight your way through
-turn off the game
Sorry, but anyone who truly thinks this game is anything like the old D&D is wrong. D&D wasn't about the number crunching, sure enough. It was about being confronted with an obstacle and using your wits and imagination to think up the best way to overcome that obstacle. Now while I wouldn't expect a computer game to compare to the pen and paper game in this regard, they could at least come half way and allow for multiple choices in how to overcome an obstacle, as it stands, this looks less like a DnD game, and more like Diablo 3 zoomed all the way in.
How about just having a system where you have four, five skills like: Craft, Acrobatics, Intrigue, Knowledge and Diplomacy that combine any relevant skill from the old pen and paper game (Intrigue would be things like disguises or forgery or pick pocketing for example) These skills would start with a certain number of points based on your primary stats like the Pap (Pen and paper) game and maybe every two levels you could add another 3-5 and every so often in a dungeon you could be confronted with a non combat obstacle that you could choose from a number of option to overcome that would depend on these rolls. Sure it doesn't match the Pap version, but for god's sake it'd be SOMETHING!
I got to the dropbox in the nick of time and noted a few things we can actually expect.
One is that retooling the code at this point isn't going to happen. It was pretty far back into the process that certain processes as far as combat interaction were modeled, too far to be anything but a, "after launch" maybe.
If additional factors can be locked into affects that originate outside the few choices in customization a degree of variation in progression should be possible, so we could see tweaks from alignment, deities, and enhanced gear.
What seems possible but doesn't get much traction is the open traverse-able areas. So much would then be possible in the user created foundry adventures.
https://soundcloud.com/nathankilgore/i-wanna-see-you2
Otter ~~~~ on Beholder
I'm gonna try the game but i don't want to spend money for a average mmo...it better be epic.
The biggest problem is that 99% of developers nowdays are like : "lets do something different..."
Why don't you just get the old stuff that worked and upgrade it.
Please make it a d&d before release cryptic. I waited years for this game and got some hopes about it.
The nearly complete lack of character customization is a glaring issue that needs to be address prior to launch (and its status updated regularly). Why you ask? Because those players who come to the game expecting it to be D&D with the full character customization that they are used to will not be happy. Hate and vitrol can hurt a game. By issuing a statement that Cryptic knows that some players are wanting a more Core Rules variant of the various classes vs the pregenerated templates and that they are working on an alternative could go far to postpone that vitrol and hate at launch. (( By addressed I mean some kind of statement of intent to include))
Since Truth sees the term Freeflow as totally classless boundaries I am now wording it as Core Rules. Core Rules means that you purchase either the Core Rules Pack or the Core Rules Class X and then can build a character who then can choose powers/feats/etc based on those available to that Class. With a Core Rules Option Races also could become much more attractive to purchase as most races come with optional powers that could be taken at character creation. (A Tiefling warlock could take Infernal Wrath for example). Yes, this system would take work, and I (Not sure about everyone, can only speak for myself) would be very willing to wait for it to come to live play. So by having a Core Rules option for character customization Cryptic would be more in line with what some D&D Players will be expecting and possibly bypass the rage/hate/vitrol as well as gaining more players.
Avatar Customization (the way you look) needs further cryptic updating as well. Since the game was announced all we have heard is how Cryptic set the bar at this (and Indeed, both CO and STO rock with avatar customization). No Horn choice for tieflings, few eye choices at all, body types are not very different, etc. The list is huge and needs fixing.
Now why do I think a core rules option is needed? When I talk to my fellow DDO players they get really interested in NW, but when they ask about classes and I explained how they are suggested templates like Guardian Fighter, Trickster Rogue, etc. they were much less excited. The conversation invariably gets worse as customization questions are asked. "Can my fighter dual wield?" No. "Can my fighter use a 2h sword?" Not until Great Weapon fighter comes out. "Can my rogue use a rapier?" No "can my rogue use a shortsword?" no. "Can I use a bow?" Not unless they make an archer. etc. When players come to this game at launch and see how limited the game actually is as far as Character customization is - there will be a LOT of vitrol spewed. That can harm a game.
I do not want to see NW go the way of other games. DDO is over 6 years old, its population has dropped from many issues in the past to the point it is barely alive today. We need a good D&D MMO, NW has the potential to be that MMO. The foundry will keep one of the major issues with DDO from happening here (Remember the year of zero updates?). Those who played DDO and left because of the Turbine issues will be trying this out - most of them really enjoyed the fact that DDO had close to PnP character customization, they will not be happy here and they could be with the inclusion of a Core Rule option.
Btw did you guys see this ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihUOIUzFD0
They said no superpowers and spell like to fighter. That do we get some gold flashy mid air shields that look just like a spell...really ?
D&D is very realistic when it comes to fighter class
Every class should have options to change weapons and offensive/defensive stances (drop 2H sword and pick up sword and board for example) depending on the circumstances of a given fight.
Let's say I design a mission like so:
The party is in an ancient crypt. The party are wounded from previous encounters and have finally made their way to the final tomb where they encounter a skeletal knight with a number of skeletal archers. The archers are in raised positions allowing them to fire on anyone in the room without providing an easy means for the characters to engage in melee. Meanwhile the knight bears a 2Hder and deals out heavy damage in melee. In order to manage this encounter the players need to adapt rather than just zerg in. Fighters need to use shields to fend off the archers while engaging the knight. The other players need to use cover and ranged attacks to deal with the archers.
In this scenario in an actual D&D game any fighter character that could not use a shield to engage the knight would likely die. So he either fights while taking a lot of damage from archers or uses ranged and fights the archers from behind cover.
In NO, the GWF seems only to have the option to engage the knight (suffering heavy damage and risking death) or to hide behind cover. He can't use a shield even if he had one in his inventory.
i would play it without the D&D name.i am currently on a action mmo kick and i mostly play pwe games.the most i know of D&D was the cartoon as a child and a couple non-D&D games that used D&D rules,like i think knights of old republic 1&2 did.
i am looking foward to playing with D&D community because from what i have read in forums,you guys seem to be a bit more mature than gaming crowd i am use to.that would be a nice change.
Look, the game started Closed Beta - anyone who's been around Crytpic's betas knows that what we see is pretty much what we're getting at launch. Nobody here is saying that the changes we would like to see have to come at launch, only that these are the changes you should make if you want anyone to believe it's a real Dungeons and Dragons game.
I don't expect any changes to be made at all. Cryptic has proven time and again that they'll take the path of least resistance when it comes to their games, and actually putting DnD into a DnD game is much harder than just reskinning Champions. However, you can't sit here and say that it isn't constructive suggestion if it can't be done by launch or immediately thereafter.
Because there's always somebody else with more money, and you can never win that unless you're that guy. If you successfully take users away from the old stuff, then the guys with more money upgrade that beyond what you can achieve, and why would anybody play your version? So, you do something different, and hope people like it. If enough do, you succeed.
Cryptic succeeded with City of Heroes, failed with Champions Online (because they tried to make a better City of Heroes, although admittedly this was an externally-induced problem when Marvel pulled out, because "City of Heroes with a top tier IP" would have been sufficiently different), and succeeded with Star Trek Online.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see if they can succeed with "medieval fantasy + action combat + state of the art cosmetic customization + state of the art chat + the only MF IP that's bigger than Warcraft". I think that's a sufficiently unique combination that it can succeed; "it's like DDO but with better graphics" isn't.
If they would have released beta earlyer all the fans oppinions would have reached them before they would have made so much of the game. At least they are flexible enough to consider what the fans say..
Alpha & Beta with the fans they use the feedback => succesfull game
Because nobody else even seriously TRIES to do UGC in MMORPGs other than Cryptic. City of Heroes Architect was basically Foundry version 0.1; it grew out of the same basic tools, with many of the same coders.