Cryptic says "we want to take our existing combat engine based on things like Power, Defense, Crit Chance, Defection, Damage bonus, damage mitigation, etc. and we want to change the artwork and we'll have attributes called Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, Constitution, and Charisma which we'll convert into some subtle bonuses for our underlying MMO engine and we want to say that it's '"based on' D&D. How much for a license?"
WotC (which is hurting for money) thinks for a moment (hmm, left hand: no money, right hand: license fee)...
"Yep that's D&D"
Cryptic says "we want to take our existing combat engine based on things like Power, Defense, Crit Chance, Defection, Damage bonus, damage mitigation, etc. and we want to change the artwork and we'll have attributes called Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, Constitution, and Charisma which we'll convert into some subtle bonuses for our underlying MMO engine and we want to say that it's '"based on' D&D. How much for a license?"
WotC (which is hurting for money) thinks for a moment (hmm, left hand: no money, right hand: license fee)...
"Yep that's D&D"
Pfffft.
Since your quoting people, can you provide the links to these conversations?
More quotes from the actual stewards of the brand:
"t’s about providing shared experiences with D&D fans using the story of Neverwinter, which is a legendary city in the Forgotten Realms. We use Neverwinter as the connective tissue across multiple product categories. The transmedia campaign is an opportunity for fans to experience the brand however they choose to...there’s of course the Neverwinter Nights video game franchise which many players know as well. For the current players it’s an exciting portfolio of products, especially if they haven’t engaged with Dungeons & Dragons as well."
That quote comes from the current Brand Manager of Dungeons and Dragons, you can see it specifically makes it clear, Neverwinter is part of the D&D brand, part of its brand strategy and most definitively part of the pantheon of products in Dungeons and Dragons.
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Cryptic says "we want to take our existing combat engine based on things like Power, Defense, Crit Chance, Defection, Damage bonus, damage mitigation, etc. and we want to change the artwork and we'll have attributes called Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, Constitution, and Charisma which we'll convert into some subtle bonuses for our underlying engine and we want to say that it's '"based on' D&D."
Sounds like every conversation that's taken place when D&D comes out with a new variant or edition, of which the game has a wide and documented history of doing.
What you're really saying is:
"I have a very narrow interpretation of what D&D is, and despite the fact the very owners of the brand have made these decisions, endorse these decisions and fully support this as a D&D product, I am not because...<insert minutia and pedantic arguments here>.
Thankfully D&D isn't as narrow as some of its alleged fans on this thread.
D&D has always been more than specific rules or mechanics, because those are as varied as you can imagine. It's always been a brand name that's been associated with a game that had a spirit of role play and character-drive story telling, in a fantasy setting. It's had numerous mechanical overhauls and variants, it's been played in a variety of mediums, all of them, called Dungeons and Dragons, (by those who actually get to decide what is and what is not Dungeons and Dragons).
And to then argue, that means LOTRO is D&D too, is laughable, because nobody, not even LOTRO is claiming it to be D&D. Of course, just about every major MMO can trace its roots to D&D (hit points seem to be pervasive in all these games), D&D has always been a unique brand. It's also been the father of hundreds of derivative products. White Dwarf begets Warhammer and Warhammer begets Warcraft etc. etc.
Where and how the brand evolves, belongs in the hands of Wizards of the Coast. They are telling us, this is an official variant and product of the D&D brand.
It's okay not to like this game, but to claim it isn't D&D, when it clearly is, just defies the truth.
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
There is no character building to speak of in this game at all. That's the essence of DnD, and it's nowhere to be found.
You'll choose a class build that you cannot modify in any way. Each class build will have two stats of the six that have any bearing on your character throughout the game. Any putting of points in any other stat is a waste of stat point.
In essence, we have the Archetypes of Champions Online with DnD names attached.
How is this DnD in any way? Because they put a sticker that says DnD on it?
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jim1771Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Sounds like every conversation that's taken place when D&D comes out with a new variant or edition, of which the game has a wide and documented history of doing.
What you're really saying is:
"I have a very narrow interpretation of what D&D is, and despite the fact the very owners of the brand have made these decisions, endorse these decisions and fully support this as a D&D product, I am not because...<insert minutia and pedantic arguments here>.
Thankfully D&D isn't as narrow as some of its alleged fans on this thread.
D&D has always been more than specific rules or mechanics, because those are as varied as you can imagine. It's always been a brand name that's been associated with a game that had a spirit of role play and character-drive story telling, in a fantasy setting. It's had numerous mechanical overhauls and variants, it's been played in a variety of mediums, all of them, called Dungeons and Dragons, (by those who actually get to decide what is and what is not Dungeons and Dragons).
And to then argue, that means LOTRO is D&D too, is laughable, because nobody, not even LOTRO is claiming it to be D&D. Of course, just about every major MMO can trace its roots to D&D (hit points seem to be pervasive in all these games), D&D has always been a unique brand. It's also been the father of hundreds of derivative products. White Dwarf begets Warhammer and Warhammer begets Warcraft etc. etc.
Where and how the brand evolves, belongs in the hands of Wizards of the Coast. They are telling us, this is an official variant and product of the D&D brand.
It's okay not to like this game, but to claim it isn't D&D, when it clearly is, just defies the truth.
@Ryger5 - you do realize that you are actually arguing that anything with a Dungeons and Dragons logo on it IS Dungeons and Dragons, right? So, my T-shirt, my coffee mug and my three-ring binder are all Dungeons and Dragons, purely because of the logo.
Never mind that none of these things have anything to do with RPG's in any way. Your argument quite literally states that the RPG elements at play are meaningless in the grand scheme - if they are branded Dungeons and Dragons, they ARE Dungeons and Dragons.
That means that, by your logic, if Legend of Zelda were to be modded to have all names and character models changed to be Dungeons and Dragons characters, and have the DnD logo thrown up every once in a while, that would be a DnD game, even though absolutely nothing about the gameplay, story or mechanics would have anything to do with the gameplay, story or mechanics involved in DnD.
Yes, this game is licensed by WotC. STO is licensed by CBS. Tell me how accurate a rendering of the Star Trek universe THAT is.
Merely having the license doesn't make the game the license in and of itself. The game has to REPRESENT what people like in the license in the first place. STO may say Star Trek on it, and it may have some names and ships that bear a bit of a resemblance to what we saw on the TV shows, but, having played the game for well over three years, there's little actual Star Trek to be had. You could change all of those names and character models, and NOTHING would be lost outside of the license itself.
Same thing here - take away the DnD license, and we have Champions Online's Archetypes mated to a streamlined version of STO's ground combat system. Quite literally, it's the two least-enjoyed parts of Cryptic's last two games thrown together for the third. You could put ANYTHING on this - Stargate, The Matrix, Star Wars, Starcraft; Cryptic could make up whatever they wanted, or use any existing license and the game would be pretty much the same.
Dungeons and Dragons is a widely recognized brand in nerd-dom, but it's SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT, and none of that is represented here. Only the brand. Same with STO - Star Trek is so much more than just the brand, but that's all Cryptic uses. Champions Online is the only one even attempting to go beyond just the brand, and that game was originally supposed to use YET ANOTHER license.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
Ok, let's try to save this thread.
The back and forth "yes it is!" and "no it is not's!" have to stop. The thread has become very nonconstructive and borderline flame ridden.
If you feel like this isn't D&D then give clear concise examples of how to improve it besides stating the obvious one which will not be in for launch no matter what. I've played this game and it's not half as restrictive as many who haven't make it out as so I'm going to ask really, really nicely to please not bash the game for being restrictive unless you have actually played the game.
This isn't something I would normally do or something I like to do but in the efforts of keeping this topic constructive it doesn't make a sense to judge a book by it's cover when many people have been won over for both sides of that argument after being able to experience and play the game for themselves.
If this thread is to avoid the lower depths it needs to be more constructive rather than opinion bashing. Suggest ways to improve the content rather than saying it's all wrong especially when so many only have experienced the game through streams and videos.
It is not surprising that Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast came to the publishers of Champions Online for their D&D4 game.
With Champions Online you have the best system for superheroes; strongly themed, characters with tireless powers designed for repetition by the genre and characters that can demonstrably be dressed in a whole range of styles, including a mock-fantasy style.
Such a game engine can be dumbed down, branded with D&D-punk artwork and offered at a premium rate to a small market with a strong history of accepting reassuring expensive prices.
A traditional fantasy MMO engine would simply be based too heavily on D&D to easily make a D&D4 game from it.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
The best way to improve the game would be to make it into a DnD game beyond just "in name only." Pretty much carbon-copy the classes, leveling structure and stat rules from DnD (I personally would prefer 3.5e, but I know that 4e would make more sense for a video game). This means that you'd actually be giving players the freedom to make the character they want, instead of the character Cryptic says we must play. This means that players would actually have to decide where to spend their stat points, since classes would find all of their stats useful in some meaningful way, instead of just the two that Cryptic highlights. This would mean that players would have to make choices as they level about what they want their character to play as when discussing traits and feats, since a lot - if not all - of those choices would be irreversible.
Doing this would go a VERY long way to making the game feel like we're actually playing a DnD game, if not give the game everything it needs wholesale. Yes, I understand that this type of change wouldn't make the game launch, but it doesn't need to. However, it does present the question of "why wasn't the game made this way from the beginning?"
From where I'm sitting, I can't think of a single reason outside of the ease of re-using the system that Archetypes from CO represents, which would be much easier to code seeing as how it'd be not much more than copypasta from an already-running game that already works 100% in the engine your using. The problem with this is the fact that I cannot envision it requiring significantly more effort to add the leveling mechanics of the FreeForm Character system to this, allowing for players to choose their stats, feats and powers.
Making non-superstats (for lack of a better term) useful ALREADY EXISTS in a rudimentary form in CO, so them not being useful in NW is mindboggling from this standpoint as well. There's really no reason to boil classes down purely to Super Stats - it eliminates the reason for the other stats to begin with. If the non-superstats don't mean anything, it was a waste of developer time and assets putting them in in the first place. My Fighter with low Strength but high Charisma may not do well in a fight, but I get all my gear for free. My Ranger with high Dex and Luck is not only nigh unhittable AND strong due to the attack bonus, but I'm going to be able to get better drops. My Rogue with low Dex and high Strength may be a glassier glass cannon, but if he gets behind you, those crits will be MASSIVE.
Yet not only are we not allowed to point out the mind-boggling nature of these blatant oversights, the very same people who profess to love the source material are telling us this isn't even DnD to begin with.
The game is fun. I played during Beta Weekend One and can assure ya'll that it's a blast. Combat feels great. The world is fun to explore. Crafting wasn't in for the first Beta Weekend and I'm looking forward to trying it out. Didn't get to the Foundry this weekend and I'm kicking myself for it. Can't wait.
Truth posted something in another thread and I'm going to quote part of it because I like how short and sweet and relevant it is:
This game made no such promise. To every gamer who is a D&D tabletop fundamentalist harsh words, but: get over it.
This is a D&D themed MMO game. If you're looking for a faithful recreation of D&D in a computer game, even NWN cannot succeed. It just is not doable on a multi-player level of this magnitude to do so with the rules meant for a group ONLY EVER of 4-6 except under rare circumstances
After 34+ years of doing this plus playing most if not every computer game related to D&D both individual and multi-player, I know my history.
Emphasis mine.
Now, while I agree with the part that I emphasized, I think she might eat her words one day if a truly comprehensive MMO translation of D&D comes along (something she says above will never happen). However, four things about that.
Firstly, come on folks, if someone does it, it's not going to be an action MMO, combat will be more strategic and no big-name publisher is going to take a risk on a comprehensive (i.e. not dumbed down) devoted translation of a complete PnP system in today's market--it'll be a job for a smaller publisher with more lenient quarterly goals and shareholders.
Secondly, I won't envy the studio who delves into that undertaking (or the publisher who has to either wait on them or diminish them with an unreasonable release date).
Thirdly, I would not want Cryptic to take on that task (the game they're making now plays to their strengths, while a true translation would not).
And fourthly, not every single freaking D&D game that is released into the world needs to try to be D&D down to the bone. Wizards of the Coast is probably attempting to do with the D&D franchise what Marvel/Disney does with the Marvel franchise (to a lesser degree, but some degree nonetheless): Market penetration and broader brand awareness. They want this old brand to thrive and make money. It's also worth remembering, they still want people to buy their pen and paper materials. Keep in mind, some games publishers are so obsessive about this, they won't even allow video games studios to attempt to mimic their systems even vaguely: Games Workshop and its licensed, spin-off Warhammer 40,000 computer games come to mind, which have been very successful, but "this isn't WH40K", to use some of ya'll's phrasing. And do you think WH40K fans care? Nope. They don't expect or need everything 40K-related that comes out to mimic the tabletop material.
In this day and age, you do not need to live in the same neighborhood or city to play pen and paper games with groups of people. WotC has good reason to want to introduce prospective customers to their source material and gaming hobby through other media in ways that do not completely obsolete their primary channels. And a fast-paced game that derives its theme from D&D is probably exactly what WotC wanted. Not to be a bitter pill but a dumbed down game like this, with an emphasis on simpler and less-entangling fun, is likely to reach a larger audience and make more money.
If you want to beg someone to make another systems-faithful D&D product, you should maybe be begging for another NWN. I don't even think an MMO would be the right place for that, but like I said above, it could happen. This isn't it, however, and it was never planned to be.
_
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
Okay. From what I've seen on videos, interviews, game play, here on these forums, other forums....it's not D&D.
A player is free to make what they want, right from the start. No limits on classes, races, etc. except that imposed by the DM. And in my experience, (30+ years of tabletop gaming, 20+ video and online) DM's are a very generous bunch. The object, after all, is to ensure the players are, above all else, having fun. Cryptic didn't get that right from the start. Bad Cryptic. Not D&D.
Now, Cryptic has nailed game play from multiple sources. It's fun. Engaging. Kudos for that.
But!! Only little freedom to develop a character. Multiple sources state that the thirty or so levels gotten on the first beta weekend revealed very little choices during the leveling up process. Different classes felt very much the same. THAT is not D&D. Bad Cryptic.
Restricting the player character creation isn't a good thing, either. One can't follow evil gods in the game, but they're there? Sorry. Bad Cryptic. Not D&D.
Personally, 4th edition was a very bad choice, if you wanted to make a video game based on D&D. Too restrictive. Not enough freedoms. Cryptic has started to build a reputation on freedoms in its games. Character design, from the ground up is superlative in CO. Less so in STO, but it's still far above other MMO's, in my opinion. From what I've seen in character creation videos that are out there....looks to me like NWO is even less than STO in character customization. LESS IS NOT MORE. Not D&D.
So, in the end....I find that Neverwinter Online, or N.O., because Neverwinter is one word.....:)....isn't D&D. It -wants- to be, but falls short.
All this is merely my opinion, based upon the facts currently available from previously cited sources in the beginning of the post.
Realistically NeverWinter Online is probably an end-of-life way to get more out of D&D4.
For D&D5 is on the way out and, just as Dungeons & Dragons Online probably got a boost when D&D3.5 was discarded by Hasbro in favour of D&D4, NeverWinter Online is probably expected to get a boost when D&D4 is dumped in the same manner.
Those D&D4 fans, who somehow fell in love with the "Vista" version of D&D, will have to decide whether they want to upgrade to D&D5, which will probably be the "Windows 7" version of D&D i.e. a return to form for a franchise that lost its way.
Those who simply can't bear to do this with probably play "NO".
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
It is not a game which is based on D&D mechanics. It is not as if they have used 4e mechanics or any mechanics for that matter and changed them unlike DDO, NWN, BG or any other previous D&D game.
From grounds up they have created their their own mechanics. Then they have flavored the mechanics to D&D theme to tell D&D story.
It does require a hell lot of work from development side to think up it all. The game is not based on PnP mechanics. It is, as I said before again and again, a MMO with mechanics of its own which tells D&D story.
Is it better approach? It works for cryptic because that it what they do - they make MMOs - so it is only better for them to use the CO or STO mechanics instead as a template to make the game. Application of D&D mechanics has not always worked as there is no market for such a product. Only limited people play it - and even then it runs in the danger of min/max enviornment which DDO is struggling with.
A game based on D&D mechanics cannot support PvP or many other things in this game.
The back and forth "yes it is!" and "no it is not's!" have to stop. The thread has become very nonconstructive and borderline flame ridden.
If you feel like this isn't D&D then give clear concise examples of how to improve it besides stating the obvious one which will not be in for launch no matter what. I've played this game and it's not half as restrictive as many who haven't make it out as so I'm going to ask really, really nicely to please not bash the game for being restrictive unless you have actually played the game.
This isn't something I would normally do or something I like to do but in the efforts of keeping this topic constructive it doesn't make a sense to judge a book by it's cover when many people have been won over for both sides of that argument after being able to experience and play the game for themselves.
If this thread is to avoid the lower depths it needs to be more constructive rather than opinion bashing. Suggest ways to improve the content rather than saying it's all wrong especially when so many only have experienced the game through streams and videos.
I will say that when I was playing the game, what felt most restrictive was the item variety. It may be because we only had 30 levels to play with, but I sure would have loved more choices for weapon styles for each class. Also, every weapon upgrade I ran into for my rogue was just another dagger (or in one case, an axe). There isn't enough variety, it all felt the same from level 1 to level 30 (except the introduction of new skills).
Another thing that felt restrictive was the attribute rolling upon character creation. As others have mentioned it wasn't very random. It felt like it was switching between two preset attribute sets.
Also I share the same sentiment as others when it came to the actual classes. While I can agree, things can be MORE restrictive than they are, but it honestly wouldn't not take much. I felt like every other trickster rogue was little different. Maybe this will change before launch, and I really hope so.
The back and forth "yes it is!" and "no it is not's!" have to stop. The thread has become very nonconstructive and borderline flame ridden.
If you feel like this isn't D&D then give clear concise examples of how to improve it besides stating the obvious one which will not be in for launch no matter what. I've played this game and it's not half as restrictive as many who haven't make it out as so I'm going to ask really, really nicely to please not bash the game for being restrictive unless you have actually played the game.
This isn't something I would normally do or something I like to do but in the efforts of keeping this topic constructive it doesn't make a sense to judge a book by it's cover when many people have been won over for both sides of that argument after being able to experience and play the game for themselves.
If this thread is to avoid the lower depths it needs to be more constructive rather than opinion bashing. Suggest ways to improve the content rather than saying it's all wrong especially when so many only have experienced the game through streams and videos.
Here's some constructive advice:
Who is a game called D&D targeting as it's player base? Gee, one would think D&D players. The problem is Cryptic couldnt make up it's mind does it want D&D players or MMO players or WoW players so it tried to cater to everyone and historicaly that approach caters to no one.
What do D&D players want? Well one would guess D&D.
So to summarise what needs to be done
- Put the damn d20 system into the game (this includes but is not limited to the use of Armor Class, hit bonuses and skill checks)
- Make classes actual classes, not slice them up into pregenerated builds
- If you are unsure how to do any of this look to DDO and a 4E book, or just ask WotC
- Profit, from all the happy D&D fans that have accumulated over 40 years of the game existing, instead of the WoW kiddies that will go back to WoW after a month
And before someone starts again with "ermahgerd it can't be done", yes it can, it's just harder than making whatever THIS was.
DDO has pvp and a f2p shop, and players and dungeons and dragons and a d20 system! Today is 6 years later, we have the technology...if you build it they will come.
NOW GET A DEV HERE TO ACTUALLY READ THIS INSTEAD OF FIGHTING EACHOTER FOR SCRAPS
Some of the features people are complaining about within NO seem to suggest that some of the people complaining have never played D&D4 as these "flaws" fit this particular version of "D&D" to a tee.
Lack of distinction, no random attributes, general blandness et al are features of D&D4 and as such they should probably be cherished by loyal D&D4 players in NO.
I must admit that as someone who has actually played D&D4, but found it to be too limited as a role-playing game (but maybe acceptable as a board game), I plan to play NO in order to assess what the actual differences are - once it is free to play.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Some of the features people are complaining about within NO seem to suggest that some of the people complaining have never played D&D4 as these "flaws" fit this particular version of "D&D" to a tee.
Lack of distinction, no random attributes, general blandness et al are features of D&D4 and as such they should probably be cherished by loyal D&D4 players in NO.
....
This is just one of those posts to trash 4e without any substance or argument. 4e has a lot of distinction. It has two ways to mix various classes - multiclassing and hybrid - in ways not possible before. Its skills are more restrictive and at same time you can do much more with a single skill than ever before. If you want to know how - check the sig for "The 4e Introduction thread" and look for multiclassing and hybrid. The customization possible in 4e is unlike any editions before it.
The game however has nothing to do with 4e mechanics - or mechanics of any edition for that matter.
From where I'm stading now, the only thing D&D in this game is the setting. The combat is different (and I'm really happy about that), the classes are ... well, they kinda feel like starter classes with no promise of a more detailed advancement (black guard, shadow dancer etc). So this is not D&D, just a hack and slash game wrapped in a D&D box.
But then again, the earth looks flat from where I'm stading.
This is just one of those posts to trash 4e without any substance or argument. 4e has a lot of distinction. It has two ways to mix various classes - multiclassing and hybrid - in ways not possible before.
However even after either types of mixing you still get a very bland D&D4 character drawing from a pool of very similar skills.
If D&D4 suddenly got more distinctive since it's big launch I would not know about it because I walked away from the game after a couple of months of playing and donated my D&D4 Core Books to a charity shop.
I certainly hope it did, for the launch version of D&D4 was very tepid and uninspiring.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
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mackflyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited February 2013
At first i want to say that i like the idea behind the game and the current setup. I'm looking forward to play NWo but....
Is it D&D? No it's not, its a computer game and will never be D&D because nnone want to spend millions of money and manhours to create D&D for PC just to see it wont work because ppl dont like min/max turnebased strategie games. Yeah i know there are ppl who like it, i love turnbased games, but after all we are a few.
Now at NwO we see a D&D licensed action game comparable to Tera, in my opinion far better then Tera but nvm, that has only a few things in common with the D&D PnP Ruleset. We got the lore, we got a plot and a scene that is familiar to every forgotten realms player and thats it.
First of all the Classes..... Kidding me right? How many are there 5 of 34 classes without prestige classes. Thats kind of a shame. After watching several videos and looking for all information i can get the Char creation nail you to your attributes by classchoice and you only slightly can randomice it your way. What about the DeX Tank? What about the Rogue fighting with a twohanded sword? All the stuff to make a unique char in your way is kicked out. Skills, talents, feats and theire prequisits are nearly meaningless. Racials are cut down to attribut mods. my my the list is long and would getting HUGE if you try to tell all the things NwO is missing BUT...
Im sure The ppl who created the game were looking forward to create somewhat balanced and enjoyable for everyone and not only DnD nerds . It's a action game after all and gives you everything you need this way and it plays in Neverwinter. At least im only unhappy about one thing: There are no Monks *sigh* and they are by far my most fav class .
Anyway i will play that game and im realy sure i will enjoy it even without beeing 1:1 DND .
It is not a game which is based on D&D mechanics. It is not as if they have used 4e mechanics or any mechanics for that matter and changed them unlike DDO, NWN, BG or any other previous D&D game.
From grounds up they have created their their own mechanics. Then they have flavored the mechanics to D&D theme to tell D&D story.
It does require a hell lot of work from development side to think up it all. The game is not based on PnP mechanics. It is, as I said before again and again, a MMO with mechanics of its own which tells D&D story.
Is it better approach? It works for cryptic because that it what they do - they make MMOs - so it is only better for them to use the CO or STO mechanics instead as a template to make the game. Application of D&D mechanics has not always worked as there is no market for such a product. Only limited people play it - and even then it runs in the danger of min/max enviornment which DDO is struggling with.
A game based on D&D mechanics cannot support PvP or many other things in this game.
A lot of the mechanics are borrowed from Cryptic's previous games. Simple modification to Cryptic's already-established AT's is the current class structure. I grant that adding a class structure more akin to DnD would take some effort on Cryptic's part, but this would make the game better as a whole, bar-none.
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desdain01Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 18Arc User
If you feel like this isn't D&D then give clear concise examples of how to improve it besides stating the obvious one which will not be in for launch no matter what. I've played this game and it's not half as restrictive as many who haven't make it out as so I'm going to ask really, really nicely to please not bash the game for being restrictive unless you have actually played the game.
I played in the first beta weekend, and I think that the game isn't like any D&D I've ever played. IMO Cryptic should really consider revisiting the way classes, feats, and skills are done to make them more like D&D (any edition will do.) By this I mean use d20 based systems, let us build our own characters, and make sure that things like skills have a central role to gameplay and are specific to the characters we build. Balance should really be secondary in a D&D game because well designed adventures require a mix of class skills. This means party balance trumps individual balance. Obviously if all we do in quests is DPS zerg through; this is meaningless. So make sure quests require party balance. Traps should be deadly and *require* a rogue to disarm. Wizard spells should be situationally useful as well as allowing for DPS. Some quests should rely on cleric healing instead of having regular rest points as well as turning undead etc. Classes should not be able to buy stacks of items to let them use cross-class skills using in game currency (reward party balance over armies of one.)
If it really is too late for you to do these types of things, then what can I say. I guess it is too late. My wife and I played the beta and both found the game to be very pretty (except the character models) but shallow and lacking for a D&D title. If you do not make big deep changes we won't be playing. I hope you do as we've already paid $400.
I also have to say that having experienced multiple failed MMO launches I appreciate that hard work has gone into what you have so far. There is a lot of polish. Choosing Neverwinter however sets the bar very high. NWN is pretty much the gold standard for D&D in a video game. Making a AAA MMO which invokes NWN's legacy means you have to exceed NWN in every way. Otherwise what is the point?
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kotliMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 577
edited February 2013
Is this D&D? well it depends on what you use as your definition of D&D. Some of you guys are saying it not because it dont have d20 etc etc in it. But then theres D&D books like the Drizzt books, so the d20 etc mechanics dont D&D make. The only thing that is in common across D&D stuff is the settings so I will say what is D&D its stuff setting somewhere in the huge D&d Multiverse.
Mind you though since this is a game it needs the costumization bit of the PnP game IMO and from what I saw in the beta this is limited I mean why no evil gods? Also theres next to no choices to make with in a class attacks are all given to you. Each class only has 1 weapon type. a handful of almost pointless point picks at level 10+ (Well at lest it seems pointless to me) the only thing that looks like it has some meaning is the level 30 path choice.
So is it D&D I guess I have to say yes it is but it not your normal D&D game.
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Let's examine that a little bit shall we?
Cryptic says "we want to take our existing combat engine based on things like Power, Defense, Crit Chance, Defection, Damage bonus, damage mitigation, etc. and we want to change the artwork and we'll have attributes called Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, Constitution, and Charisma which we'll convert into some subtle bonuses for our underlying MMO engine and we want to say that it's '"based on' D&D. How much for a license?"
WotC (which is hurting for money) thinks for a moment (hmm, left hand: no money, right hand: license fee)...
"Yep that's D&D"
Pfffft.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Since your quoting people, can you provide the links to these conversations?
Neverwinter Wiki
"t’s about providing shared experiences with D&D fans using the story of Neverwinter, which is a legendary city in the Forgotten Realms. We use Neverwinter as the connective tissue across multiple product categories. The transmedia campaign is an opportunity for fans to experience the brand however they choose to...there’s of course the Neverwinter Nights video game franchise which many players know as well. For the current players it’s an exciting portfolio of products, especially if they haven’t engaged with Dungeons & Dragons as well."
That quote comes from the current Brand Manager of Dungeons and Dragons, you can see it specifically makes it clear, Neverwinter is part of the D&D brand, part of its brand strategy and most definitively part of the pantheon of products in Dungeons and Dragons.
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Sounds like every conversation that's taken place when D&D comes out with a new variant or edition, of which the game has a wide and documented history of doing.
What you're really saying is:
"I have a very narrow interpretation of what D&D is, and despite the fact the very owners of the brand have made these decisions, endorse these decisions and fully support this as a D&D product, I am not because...<insert minutia and pedantic arguments here>.
Thankfully D&D isn't as narrow as some of its alleged fans on this thread.
D&D has always been more than specific rules or mechanics, because those are as varied as you can imagine. It's always been a brand name that's been associated with a game that had a spirit of role play and character-drive story telling, in a fantasy setting. It's had numerous mechanical overhauls and variants, it's been played in a variety of mediums, all of them, called Dungeons and Dragons, (by those who actually get to decide what is and what is not Dungeons and Dragons).
And to then argue, that means LOTRO is D&D too, is laughable, because nobody, not even LOTRO is claiming it to be D&D. Of course, just about every major MMO can trace its roots to D&D (hit points seem to be pervasive in all these games), D&D has always been a unique brand. It's also been the father of hundreds of derivative products. White Dwarf begets Warhammer and Warhammer begets Warcraft etc. etc.
Where and how the brand evolves, belongs in the hands of Wizards of the Coast. They are telling us, this is an official variant and product of the D&D brand.
It's okay not to like this game, but to claim it isn't D&D, when it clearly is, just defies the truth.
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Neverwinter Wiki
No. Those were fictional quotes trying to make a point that apparently eluded some people.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
You'll choose a class build that you cannot modify in any way. Each class build will have two stats of the six that have any bearing on your character throughout the game. Any putting of points in any other stat is a waste of stat point.
In essence, we have the Archetypes of Champions Online with DnD names attached.
How is this DnD in any way? Because they put a sticker that says DnD on it?
Never mind that none of these things have anything to do with RPG's in any way. Your argument quite literally states that the RPG elements at play are meaningless in the grand scheme - if they are branded Dungeons and Dragons, they ARE Dungeons and Dragons.
That means that, by your logic, if Legend of Zelda were to be modded to have all names and character models changed to be Dungeons and Dragons characters, and have the DnD logo thrown up every once in a while, that would be a DnD game, even though absolutely nothing about the gameplay, story or mechanics would have anything to do with the gameplay, story or mechanics involved in DnD.
Yes, this game is licensed by WotC. STO is licensed by CBS. Tell me how accurate a rendering of the Star Trek universe THAT is.
Merely having the license doesn't make the game the license in and of itself. The game has to REPRESENT what people like in the license in the first place. STO may say Star Trek on it, and it may have some names and ships that bear a bit of a resemblance to what we saw on the TV shows, but, having played the game for well over three years, there's little actual Star Trek to be had. You could change all of those names and character models, and NOTHING would be lost outside of the license itself.
Same thing here - take away the DnD license, and we have Champions Online's Archetypes mated to a streamlined version of STO's ground combat system. Quite literally, it's the two least-enjoyed parts of Cryptic's last two games thrown together for the third. You could put ANYTHING on this - Stargate, The Matrix, Star Wars, Starcraft; Cryptic could make up whatever they wanted, or use any existing license and the game would be pretty much the same.
Dungeons and Dragons is a widely recognized brand in nerd-dom, but it's SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT, and none of that is represented here. Only the brand. Same with STO - Star Trek is so much more than just the brand, but that's all Cryptic uses. Champions Online is the only one even attempting to go beyond just the brand, and that game was originally supposed to use YET ANOTHER license.
The back and forth "yes it is!" and "no it is not's!" have to stop. The thread has become very nonconstructive and borderline flame ridden.
If you feel like this isn't D&D then give clear concise examples of how to improve it besides stating the obvious one which will not be in for launch no matter what. I've played this game and it's not half as restrictive as many who haven't make it out as so I'm going to ask really, really nicely to please not bash the game for being restrictive unless you have actually played the game.
This isn't something I would normally do or something I like to do but in the efforts of keeping this topic constructive it doesn't make a sense to judge a book by it's cover when many people have been won over for both sides of that argument after being able to experience and play the game for themselves.
If this thread is to avoid the lower depths it needs to be more constructive rather than opinion bashing. Suggest ways to improve the content rather than saying it's all wrong especially when so many only have experienced the game through streams and videos.
With Champions Online you have the best system for superheroes; strongly themed, characters with tireless powers designed for repetition by the genre and characters that can demonstrably be dressed in a whole range of styles, including a mock-fantasy style.
Such a game engine can be dumbed down, branded with D&D-punk artwork and offered at a premium rate to a small market with a strong history of accepting reassuring expensive prices.
A traditional fantasy MMO engine would simply be based too heavily on D&D to easily make a D&D4 game from it.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Doing this would go a VERY long way to making the game feel like we're actually playing a DnD game, if not give the game everything it needs wholesale. Yes, I understand that this type of change wouldn't make the game launch, but it doesn't need to. However, it does present the question of "why wasn't the game made this way from the beginning?"
From where I'm sitting, I can't think of a single reason outside of the ease of re-using the system that Archetypes from CO represents, which would be much easier to code seeing as how it'd be not much more than copypasta from an already-running game that already works 100% in the engine your using. The problem with this is the fact that I cannot envision it requiring significantly more effort to add the leveling mechanics of the FreeForm Character system to this, allowing for players to choose their stats, feats and powers.
Making non-superstats (for lack of a better term) useful ALREADY EXISTS in a rudimentary form in CO, so them not being useful in NW is mindboggling from this standpoint as well. There's really no reason to boil classes down purely to Super Stats - it eliminates the reason for the other stats to begin with. If the non-superstats don't mean anything, it was a waste of developer time and assets putting them in in the first place. My Fighter with low Strength but high Charisma may not do well in a fight, but I get all my gear for free. My Ranger with high Dex and Luck is not only nigh unhittable AND strong due to the attack bonus, but I'm going to be able to get better drops. My Rogue with low Dex and high Strength may be a glassier glass cannon, but if he gets behind you, those crits will be MASSIVE.
Yet not only are we not allowed to point out the mind-boggling nature of these blatant oversights, the very same people who profess to love the source material are telling us this isn't even DnD to begin with.
Truth posted something in another thread and I'm going to quote part of it because I like how short and sweet and relevant it is:
Emphasis mine.
Now, while I agree with the part that I emphasized, I think she might eat her words one day if a truly comprehensive MMO translation of D&D comes along (something she says above will never happen). However, four things about that.
Firstly, come on folks, if someone does it, it's not going to be an action MMO, combat will be more strategic and no big-name publisher is going to take a risk on a comprehensive (i.e. not dumbed down) devoted translation of a complete PnP system in today's market--it'll be a job for a smaller publisher with more lenient quarterly goals and shareholders.
Secondly, I won't envy the studio who delves into that undertaking (or the publisher who has to either wait on them or diminish them with an unreasonable release date).
Thirdly, I would not want Cryptic to take on that task (the game they're making now plays to their strengths, while a true translation would not).
And fourthly, not every single freaking D&D game that is released into the world needs to try to be D&D down to the bone. Wizards of the Coast is probably attempting to do with the D&D franchise what Marvel/Disney does with the Marvel franchise (to a lesser degree, but some degree nonetheless): Market penetration and broader brand awareness. They want this old brand to thrive and make money. It's also worth remembering, they still want people to buy their pen and paper materials. Keep in mind, some games publishers are so obsessive about this, they won't even allow video games studios to attempt to mimic their systems even vaguely: Games Workshop and its licensed, spin-off Warhammer 40,000 computer games come to mind, which have been very successful, but "this isn't WH40K", to use some of ya'll's phrasing. And do you think WH40K fans care? Nope. They don't expect or need everything 40K-related that comes out to mimic the tabletop material.
In this day and age, you do not need to live in the same neighborhood or city to play pen and paper games with groups of people. WotC has good reason to want to introduce prospective customers to their source material and gaming hobby through other media in ways that do not completely obsolete their primary channels. And a fast-paced game that derives its theme from D&D is probably exactly what WotC wanted. Not to be a bitter pill but a dumbed down game like this, with an emphasis on simpler and less-entangling fun, is likely to reach a larger audience and make more money.
If you want to beg someone to make another systems-faithful D&D product, you should maybe be begging for another NWN. I don't even think an MMO would be the right place for that, but like I said above, it could happen. This isn't it, however, and it was never planned to be.
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"YES, PLEASE"
Vote YES for the Foundry in Champions Online.
@Captain-Electric | CoH/Virtue veteran | Proud new Champion
A player is free to make what they want, right from the start. No limits on classes, races, etc. except that imposed by the DM. And in my experience, (30+ years of tabletop gaming, 20+ video and online) DM's are a very generous bunch. The object, after all, is to ensure the players are, above all else, having fun. Cryptic didn't get that right from the start. Bad Cryptic. Not D&D.
Now, Cryptic has nailed game play from multiple sources. It's fun. Engaging. Kudos for that.
But!! Only little freedom to develop a character. Multiple sources state that the thirty or so levels gotten on the first beta weekend revealed very little choices during the leveling up process. Different classes felt very much the same. THAT is not D&D. Bad Cryptic.
Restricting the player character creation isn't a good thing, either. One can't follow evil gods in the game, but they're there? Sorry. Bad Cryptic. Not D&D.
Personally, 4th edition was a very bad choice, if you wanted to make a video game based on D&D. Too restrictive. Not enough freedoms. Cryptic has started to build a reputation on freedoms in its games. Character design, from the ground up is superlative in CO. Less so in STO, but it's still far above other MMO's, in my opinion. From what I've seen in character creation videos that are out there....looks to me like NWO is even less than STO in character customization. LESS IS NOT MORE. Not D&D.
So, in the end....I find that Neverwinter Online, or N.O., because Neverwinter is one word.....:)....isn't D&D. It -wants- to be, but falls short.
All this is merely my opinion, based upon the facts currently available from previously cited sources in the beginning of the post.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
For D&D5 is on the way out and, just as Dungeons & Dragons Online probably got a boost when D&D3.5 was discarded by Hasbro in favour of D&D4, NeverWinter Online is probably expected to get a boost when D&D4 is dumped in the same manner.
Those D&D4 fans, who somehow fell in love with the "Vista" version of D&D, will have to decide whether they want to upgrade to D&D5, which will probably be the "Windows 7" version of D&D i.e. a return to form for a franchise that lost its way.
Those who simply can't bear to do this with probably play "NO".
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
From grounds up they have created their their own mechanics. Then they have flavored the mechanics to D&D theme to tell D&D story.
It does require a hell lot of work from development side to think up it all. The game is not based on PnP mechanics. It is, as I said before again and again, a MMO with mechanics of its own which tells D&D story.
Is it better approach? It works for cryptic because that it what they do - they make MMOs - so it is only better for them to use the CO or STO mechanics instead as a template to make the game. Application of D&D mechanics has not always worked as there is no market for such a product. Only limited people play it - and even then it runs in the danger of min/max enviornment which DDO is struggling with.
A game based on D&D mechanics cannot support PvP or many other things in this game.
I will say that when I was playing the game, what felt most restrictive was the item variety. It may be because we only had 30 levels to play with, but I sure would have loved more choices for weapon styles for each class. Also, every weapon upgrade I ran into for my rogue was just another dagger (or in one case, an axe). There isn't enough variety, it all felt the same from level 1 to level 30 (except the introduction of new skills).
Another thing that felt restrictive was the attribute rolling upon character creation. As others have mentioned it wasn't very random. It felt like it was switching between two preset attribute sets.
Also I share the same sentiment as others when it came to the actual classes. While I can agree, things can be MORE restrictive than they are, but it honestly wouldn't not take much. I felt like every other trickster rogue was little different. Maybe this will change before launch, and I really hope so.
Here's some constructive advice:
Who is a game called D&D targeting as it's player base? Gee, one would think D&D players. The problem is Cryptic couldnt make up it's mind does it want D&D players or MMO players or WoW players so it tried to cater to everyone and historicaly that approach caters to no one.
What do D&D players want? Well one would guess D&D.
So to summarise what needs to be done
- Put the damn d20 system into the game (this includes but is not limited to the use of Armor Class, hit bonuses and skill checks)
- Make classes actual classes, not slice them up into pregenerated builds
- If you are unsure how to do any of this look to DDO and a 4E book, or just ask WotC
- Profit, from all the happy D&D fans that have accumulated over 40 years of the game existing, instead of the WoW kiddies that will go back to WoW after a month
And before someone starts again with "ermahgerd it can't be done", yes it can, it's just harder than making whatever THIS was.
DDO has pvp and a f2p shop, and players and dungeons and dragons and a d20 system! Today is 6 years later, we have the technology...if you build it they will come.
NOW GET A DEV HERE TO ACTUALLY READ THIS INSTEAD OF FIGHTING EACHOTER FOR SCRAPS
Lack of distinction, no random attributes, general blandness et al are features of D&D4 and as such they should probably be cherished by loyal D&D4 players in NO.
I must admit that as someone who has actually played D&D4, but found it to be too limited as a role-playing game (but maybe acceptable as a board game), I plan to play NO in order to assess what the actual differences are - once it is free to play.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
The game however has nothing to do with 4e mechanics - or mechanics of any edition for that matter.
But then again, the earth looks flat from where I'm stading.
However even after either types of mixing you still get a very bland D&D4 character drawing from a pool of very similar skills.
If D&D4 suddenly got more distinctive since it's big launch I would not know about it because I walked away from the game after a couple of months of playing and donated my D&D4 Core Books to a charity shop.
I certainly hope it did, for the launch version of D&D4 was very tepid and uninspiring.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Is it D&D? No it's not, its a computer game and will never be D&D because nnone want to spend millions of money and manhours to create D&D for PC just to see it wont work because ppl dont like min/max turnebased strategie games. Yeah i know there are ppl who like it, i love turnbased games, but after all we are a few.
Now at NwO we see a D&D licensed action game comparable to Tera, in my opinion far better then Tera but nvm, that has only a few things in common with the D&D PnP Ruleset. We got the lore, we got a plot and a scene that is familiar to every forgotten realms player and thats it.
First of all the Classes..... Kidding me right? How many are there 5 of 34 classes without prestige classes. Thats kind of a shame. After watching several videos and looking for all information i can get the Char creation nail you to your attributes by classchoice and you only slightly can randomice it your way. What about the DeX Tank? What about the Rogue fighting with a twohanded sword? All the stuff to make a unique char in your way is kicked out. Skills, talents, feats and theire prequisits are nearly meaningless. Racials are cut down to attribut mods. my my the list is long and would getting HUGE if you try to tell all the things NwO is missing BUT...
Im sure The ppl who created the game were looking forward to create somewhat balanced and enjoyable for everyone and not only DnD nerds
Anyway i will play that game and im realy sure i will enjoy it even without beeing 1:1 DND
A lot of the mechanics are borrowed from Cryptic's previous games. Simple modification to Cryptic's already-established AT's is the current class structure. I grant that adding a class structure more akin to DnD would take some effort on Cryptic's part, but this would make the game better as a whole, bar-none.
I played in the first beta weekend, and I think that the game isn't like any D&D I've ever played. IMO Cryptic should really consider revisiting the way classes, feats, and skills are done to make them more like D&D (any edition will do.) By this I mean use d20 based systems, let us build our own characters, and make sure that things like skills have a central role to gameplay and are specific to the characters we build. Balance should really be secondary in a D&D game because well designed adventures require a mix of class skills. This means party balance trumps individual balance. Obviously if all we do in quests is DPS zerg through; this is meaningless. So make sure quests require party balance. Traps should be deadly and *require* a rogue to disarm. Wizard spells should be situationally useful as well as allowing for DPS. Some quests should rely on cleric healing instead of having regular rest points as well as turning undead etc. Classes should not be able to buy stacks of items to let them use cross-class skills using in game currency (reward party balance over armies of one.)
If it really is too late for you to do these types of things, then what can I say. I guess it is too late. My wife and I played the beta and both found the game to be very pretty (except the character models) but shallow and lacking for a D&D title. If you do not make big deep changes we won't be playing. I hope you do as we've already paid $400.
I also have to say that having experienced multiple failed MMO launches I appreciate that hard work has gone into what you have so far. There is a lot of polish. Choosing Neverwinter however sets the bar very high. NWN is pretty much the gold standard for D&D in a video game. Making a AAA MMO which invokes NWN's legacy means you have to exceed NWN in every way. Otherwise what is the point?
Mind you though since this is a game it needs the costumization bit of the PnP game IMO and from what I saw in the beta this is limited I mean why no evil gods? Also theres next to no choices to make with in a class attacks are all given to you. Each class only has 1 weapon type. a handful of almost pointless point picks at level 10+ (Well at lest it seems pointless to me) the only thing that looks like it has some meaning is the level 30 path choice.
So is it D&D I guess I have to say yes it is but it not your normal D&D game.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics