ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2013
The only thing that's more fun than hunting low level characters in a PvP zone is being a low level character in a PvP zone hunted by a high level character, and getting to call in your Guildmates to reap revenge.
As an aside my PnP group was always full of minmaxers.
PvP IS about cooperation. It's especially fun when you have an objective - like a castle - that a guild can say, "This is mine! We worked to control this!" Or to try to take that castle another group of players.
Action combat games also loan themselves particularly well to PvP because player skill / control is such a big part of being a successful combatant.
It's also nice that balance of character power was a big part of the fundamental 4e design.
I also want to mention the difference between "theme-park" and "sandbox" MMOs because people seem to get these confused.
In a theme-park game, players engage in activities set by the developers and reap rewards set by the developers. Player's goals are laid out for them - there's often a pre-defined storyline that your character, who you don't so much create but adopt, that you are incentivised to complete.
In a sandbox game, players have the ability to shape the world around them. Players have the ability to change and control the environment around them, whether it be by building their own structures, or changing structures, or more subtly, by being in control of economic development like crafting tools and ingredients. There is a world around them that players can choose to engage in and shape in any way they want, rather than being driven into a pre-existing plot or story.
A good example of a theme-park game would be Dragon Age. A good example of a sandbox game would be Morrowind.
For MMOs, a good example of a theme-park would be RaiderZ. A sandbox would be Eve.
Most successful MMOs have elements of both. Take Rift for example - there's an over-arching plotline of sorts, with activities for the players to engage in which don't necessarily have permanent consequences. After all, what fun would it be if a player cleared out a dungeon and it didn't repopulate. But Rift also has sandbox elements that put players in control of the environment - things like being able to completely wipe out the town of an opposing faction and replace it with NPCs of your alignment.
Sandbox MMOs almost require PvP because players want to shape the world according to their own desires, and different groups of players will obviously have different goals. One player wants to be the lawful paladin protecting his city, another wants to be a bandit preying on those travelling the roads.
PnP sessions of DnD are obviously sandbox. Well, at least a GOOD DM puts his players in control.
0
ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
For some reason every thread about PvP on this forum just gets overrun with people whining about PvP existing at all. It's kind of funny. But it really would be nice if those of us who enjoy PvP could just talk about what we want to see instead of having to constantly defend its very existence.
For some reason every thread about PvP on this forum just gets overrun with people whining about PvP existing at all. It's kind of funny. But it really would be nice if those of us who enjoy PvP could just talk about what we want to see instead of having to constantly defend its very existence.
yeah yeah, censorship stop me from talking about some little cats
Actually just had a thought about a pvp system that I might be able to enjoy in a D&D setting. For single player combat it would involve arena type fights whether that is a grand coliseum or a roped off section in the back of a tavern I think both could be fun and have different level of stakes.
For pvp in the world I would not have it because D&D is a party game. I think pvp should be party v party. With it being party versus party someone who likes making characters that are greater in sum than in parts can partake in combat on equal footing with those that build characters strictly for solo play. Not sure I've said this real well but I would like to see my cleric that is built to aid and improve others not necessarily fight solo not have to pvp by himself but it might be fun in a group in select areas and not the whole world. If were going to have PVP I would like to see a system where PC's are given a chance to utilize their roles.
Some of the best fights come when facing other minds not an AI so I can see why people want it
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
*sniffs* Me want ranger
0
ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2013
I really want to see PvE style dungeons with multiple groups of players trying to achieve different goals with the inevitability of a PvP standoff. Rift did this very well.
For instance a group of cultists is trying to summon a demon.
1 group of players is working for an organization that wants to stop it.
Another group of players is working for an organization that wants to capture the demon and interrogate it.
The players travel thru the dungeon working towards their own goals and eventually have to face off.
It would be great to be able to make foundry missions like this. It's always interesting when two Good-aligned groups have reason to oppose each other.
For some reason every thread about RP on any forum just gets overrun with people whining about RP existing at all. It's kind of funny. But it really would be nice if those of us who enjoy RP could just talk about what we want to see instead of having to constantly defend its very existence.
See how that works both ways?
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
0
ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2013
Is there an RP thread?
What I see is that nobody likes being harassed while doing what they enjoy.
voqarMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Since PvP has nothing to do with DnD, having PvP in this game is just flat out stupid. Focus on group-based PvE (ie, what D&D is all about) and ditch the nonsense that's done enough in other games.
There's nothing wrong with PvP. It just doesn't belong in D&D.
When you got together with friends to do PnP D&D, you didn't PvP each other. You did a group PvE vs rich GM generated/run content. You didn't play D&D to solo either, you got together with friends, played as a team, and took on challenges greater than what one could handle alone.
D&D is what the essence of MMORPGs is all about - quality group-based PvE. PvP doesn't fit the equation anymore than heavy emphasis on solo gameplay does.
This game has a chance to both be true to D&D *and* be true to the MMORPG genre instead of being like lots of other failures or mediocre games in trying to be everything for everyone.
Just be the best MMORPG you can be. Focus on group-based PvE, which is what D&D is all about.
Leave PvP to the LOL, the online FPS, the MMOLites like PS2, where it's done better and isn't just a slapped on abomination of a side/mini game.
Leave the solo PvE in Skyrim and the bazillion other single player games.
A D&D MMORGP should be all about group-based PvE. Nothing else. Or, as with so many other games, it'll just be watered down in every way across all the things it tries to do. Focus on one thing and be great at it, and for D&D, that is not PvP, it's not solo, it is group-based PvE.
If some people don't wanna play due to no PvP. Bummer. And utlimately for the good. If you wanna PvP, you should be playing a PvP game, not D&D.
If some people don't wanna play due to lack of a solo campaign you'll finish in a few weeks/months, bail, and never play again, not really a bummer at all. This is one of the things killing new MMORPGs these days. Waste years of dev effort on content for players that will stick around short term while not producing enough for the players who would stick around years if there was content to support it - and those are the people who group and who want the bigger challenges and content unique to MMORPGs. People who just wanna solo should not be catered to in a genre that is unique for grouping opportunities. For too many games it gets them numbers early, numbers that topple once those soloists finish the solo content and bail for another game. It's dumb design.
@voqar
Dude, did you even saw video previews of the game? What's left of D&D is a name, ambientation, races, class transfer, skills description... gameplay is NOT! In videos you can see a set of skills, 4-5 which you can use, so I presume it will be something like diablo or guild wars, where you can choose 4-5 skills from the list of all skills and try to make best combinations that suits your play style. It's action base RPG, not PnP game with game master... so don't hold on D&D like a granny holds free bus seat, it's just franchise.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
yes, eve online is a good example, Lineage 2 also... and I played both of them, so I know the game concept well. It's well implemented to satisfy both pvp and pve players. Me, personally never had problems with guys that came to kill me, you accept it as a part of a game, and seek revenge but as I know that the attacker will suffer consequences for attacking me, I never really bothered, and there were no so many attacks after all, but still... the trill of fighting a real human being is much more interesting and involving than fighting scripted NPCs.
If there would not be any pvp element, what the difference would be between MMo game and any other single player game? Now you will say that I can do quest with other players, but so i can in Diablo 3 and after a little bit it gets boring, repetitive... anyway, pvp rules would not apply in instance zones anyway, so this party-based PVE experience is guaranteed.
In "Dungeon and dragons online" there is PvP, and it's official D&D game (although it's only arena based, and it wasn't very well implemented... but that's on their DEV team, that sucked from the very beginning).
The point is that PnP Roleplaying games were about players working as a team against NPCs. This evolved into the MUD and that evolved into games like Everquest which had dueling but no real PvP the way it is thought of today. EQ was basically taking the PnP RPG and letting people come together online and experience what it was like without having to set a time and place to meet with like minded individuals and find a DM, etc.
I think this genre has lost track of that simple truth and this is what has lead to it's decline in recent years. It's no longer MMORPG, but everything is an MMOG and when you want to play other players what you really want is a Sandbox world in the truest sense or Call of Duty.
Adding PvP to appease the masses who have no real concept of what RPG really means is disheartening in any game, but then this is probably why we have reality TV shows as well.
Let's use compromise which means both sides don't get entirely what they want so are unhappy but know the other side is unhappy....wait, or was it supposed to be positive...I always get this mixed up
Anyway, it's not going to be open world PvP and be limited to certain areas like Cryptic has done in their other games.
And it's not going to be excluded because it's a D&D MMO because the PvP aspect is a long an cultured part of the MMO whether you choose to participate in it or not. On this point I can concede as a long time D&D player AND MMO player.
I really want to see PvE style dungeons with multiple groups of players trying to achieve different goals with the inevitability of a PvP standoff. Rift did this very well.
For instance a group of cultists is trying to summon a demon.
1 group of players is working for an organization that wants to stop it.
Another group of players is working for an organization that wants to capture the demon and interrogate it.
The players travel thru the dungeon working towards their own goals and eventually have to face off.
It would be great to be able to make foundry missions like this. It's always interesting when two Good-aligned groups have reason to oppose each other.
This is EXACTLY what I was asking for! I know the devs are looking for examples how to further implement PvP in Foundry, here you go!
(Roleplaying whining and is there a roleplaying thread)
Since PvP has nothing to do with DnD, having PvP in this game is just flat out stupid. Focus on group-based PvE (ie, what D&D is all about) and ditch the nonsense that's done enough in other games.
There's nothing wrong with PvP. It just doesn't belong in D&D.
When you got together with friends to do PnP D&D, you didn't PvP each other. You did a group PvE vs rich GM generated/run content. You didn't play D&D to solo either, you got together with friends, played as a team, and took on challenges greater than what one could handle alone.
D&D is what the essence of MMORPGs is all about - quality group-based PvE. PvP doesn't fit the equation anymore than heavy emphasis on solo gameplay does.
This game has a chance to both be true to D&D *and* be true to the MMORPG genre instead of being like lots of other failures or mediocre games in trying to be everything for everyone.
Just be the best MMORPG you can be. Focus on group-based PvE, which is what D&D is all about.
Leave PvP to the LOL, the online FPS, the MMOLites like PS2, where it's done better and isn't just a slapped on abomination of a side/mini game.
Leave the solo PvE in Skyrim and the bazillion other single player games.
A D&D MMORGP should be all about group-based PvE. Nothing else. Or, as with so many other games, it'll just be watered down in every way across all the things it tries to do. Focus on one thing and be great at it, and for D&D, that is not PvP, it's not solo, it is group-based PvE.
If some people don't wanna play due to no PvP. Bummer. And utlimately for the good. If you wanna PvP, you should be playing a PvP game, not D&D.
If some people don't wanna play due to lack of a solo campaign you'll finish in a few weeks/months, bail, and never play again, not really a bummer at all. This is one of the things killing new MMORPGs these days. Waste years of dev effort on content for players that will stick around short term while not producing enough for the players who would stick around years if there was content to support it - and those are the people who group and who want the bigger challenges and content unique to MMORPGs. People who just wanna solo should not be catered to in a genre that is unique for grouping opportunities. For too many games it gets them numbers early, numbers that topple once those soloists finish the solo content and bail for another game. It's dumb design.
@voqar
Dude, did you even saw video previews of the game? What's left of D&D is a name, ambientation, races, class transfer, skills description... gameplay is NOT! In videos you can see a set of skills, 4-5 which you can use, so I presume it will be something like diablo or guild wars, where you can choose 4-5 skills from the list of all skills and try to make best combinations that suits your play style. It's action base RPG, not PnP game with game master... so don't hold on D&D like a granny holds free bus seat, it's just franchise.
This is not a purist D&D game. Or traditional MMO.
It's a hybridization of an Action MMO with a D&D theme. That means it faces the MMO theme and the D&D theme. Both sides have to learn to accept this, and that means PvP, just not PvP everywhere either. That's the company's call. If you can't accept it due to fundamental game beliefs, you can go and make your own fundamental game and have people yell at you how you're doing XYZ wrongly.
If you're not forced to play it or interact with it, then stop complaining about it.
I'm not forcing you all to ROLE PLAY and that is considered NOW "always done in D&D" yet Chainmail people will argue otherwise.
@voqar
Dude, did you even saw video previews of the game? What's left of D&D is a name, ambientation, races, class transfer, skills description... gameplay is NOT! In videos you can see a set of skills, 4-5 which you can use, so I presume it will be something like diablo or guild wars, where you can choose 4-5 skills from the list of all skills and try to make best combinations that suits your play style. It's action base RPG, not PnP game with game master... so don't hold on D&D like a granny holds free bus seat, it's just franchise.
Comments
As an aside my PnP group was always full of minmaxers.
PvP IS about cooperation. It's especially fun when you have an objective - like a castle - that a guild can say, "This is mine! We worked to control this!" Or to try to take that castle another group of players.
Action combat games also loan themselves particularly well to PvP because player skill / control is such a big part of being a successful combatant.
It's also nice that balance of character power was a big part of the fundamental 4e design.
I also want to mention the difference between "theme-park" and "sandbox" MMOs because people seem to get these confused.
In a theme-park game, players engage in activities set by the developers and reap rewards set by the developers. Player's goals are laid out for them - there's often a pre-defined storyline that your character, who you don't so much create but adopt, that you are incentivised to complete.
In a sandbox game, players have the ability to shape the world around them. Players have the ability to change and control the environment around them, whether it be by building their own structures, or changing structures, or more subtly, by being in control of economic development like crafting tools and ingredients. There is a world around them that players can choose to engage in and shape in any way they want, rather than being driven into a pre-existing plot or story.
A good example of a theme-park game would be Dragon Age. A good example of a sandbox game would be Morrowind.
For MMOs, a good example of a theme-park would be RaiderZ. A sandbox would be Eve.
Most successful MMOs have elements of both. Take Rift for example - there's an over-arching plotline of sorts, with activities for the players to engage in which don't necessarily have permanent consequences. After all, what fun would it be if a player cleared out a dungeon and it didn't repopulate. But Rift also has sandbox elements that put players in control of the environment - things like being able to completely wipe out the town of an opposing faction and replace it with NPCs of your alignment.
Sandbox MMOs almost require PvP because players want to shape the world according to their own desires, and different groups of players will obviously have different goals. One player wants to be the lawful paladin protecting his city, another wants to be a bandit preying on those travelling the roads.
PnP sessions of DnD are obviously sandbox. Well, at least a GOOD DM puts his players in control.
For some reason every thread about PvP on this forum just gets overrun with people whining about PvP existing at all. It's kind of funny. But it really would be nice if those of us who enjoy PvP could just talk about what we want to see instead of having to constantly defend its very existence.
yeah yeah, censorship stop me from talking about some little cats
My work: Heroes Blacksmith - Library
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?21051-Heroes-Blacksmith-Library
I love cats.
You sound like you need to go eat a bag of dogs.
My work: Heroes Blacksmith - Library
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?21051-Heroes-Blacksmith-Library
l o l?
For pvp in the world I would not have it because D&D is a party game. I think pvp should be party v party. With it being party versus party someone who likes making characters that are greater in sum than in parts can partake in combat on equal footing with those that build characters strictly for solo play. Not sure I've said this real well but I would like to see my cleric that is built to aid and improve others not necessarily fight solo not have to pvp by himself but it might be fun in a group in select areas and not the whole world. If were going to have PVP I would like to see a system where PC's are given a chance to utilize their roles.
Some of the best fights come when facing other minds not an AI so I can see why people want it
For instance a group of cultists is trying to summon a demon.
1 group of players is working for an organization that wants to stop it.
Another group of players is working for an organization that wants to capture the demon and interrogate it.
The players travel thru the dungeon working towards their own goals and eventually have to face off.
It would be great to be able to make foundry missions like this. It's always interesting when two Good-aligned groups have reason to oppose each other.
See how that works both ways?
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
What I see is that nobody likes being harassed while doing what they enjoy.
RP is cool
So is PvP
This game has both, this game supports both. So lets get along.
And there are people like me who do both - and also do RP in PvP.
Let us respect all opinions and all play-styles!
My point exactly. Thanks for proving it.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
There's nothing wrong with PvP. It just doesn't belong in D&D.
When you got together with friends to do PnP D&D, you didn't PvP each other. You did a group PvE vs rich GM generated/run content. You didn't play D&D to solo either, you got together with friends, played as a team, and took on challenges greater than what one could handle alone.
D&D is what the essence of MMORPGs is all about - quality group-based PvE. PvP doesn't fit the equation anymore than heavy emphasis on solo gameplay does.
This game has a chance to both be true to D&D *and* be true to the MMORPG genre instead of being like lots of other failures or mediocre games in trying to be everything for everyone.
Just be the best MMORPG you can be. Focus on group-based PvE, which is what D&D is all about.
Leave PvP to the LOL, the online FPS, the MMOLites like PS2, where it's done better and isn't just a slapped on abomination of a side/mini game.
Leave the solo PvE in Skyrim and the bazillion other single player games.
A D&D MMORGP should be all about group-based PvE. Nothing else. Or, as with so many other games, it'll just be watered down in every way across all the things it tries to do. Focus on one thing and be great at it, and for D&D, that is not PvP, it's not solo, it is group-based PvE.
If some people don't wanna play due to no PvP. Bummer. And utlimately for the good. If you wanna PvP, you should be playing a PvP game, not D&D.
If some people don't wanna play due to lack of a solo campaign you'll finish in a few weeks/months, bail, and never play again, not really a bummer at all. This is one of the things killing new MMORPGs these days. Waste years of dev effort on content for players that will stick around short term while not producing enough for the players who would stick around years if there was content to support it - and those are the people who group and who want the bigger challenges and content unique to MMORPGs. People who just wanna solo should not be catered to in a genre that is unique for grouping opportunities. For too many games it gets them numbers early, numbers that topple once those soloists finish the solo content and bail for another game. It's dumb design.
Dude, did you even saw video previews of the game? What's left of D&D is a name, ambientation, races, class transfer, skills description... gameplay is NOT! In videos you can see a set of skills, 4-5 which you can use, so I presume it will be something like diablo or guild wars, where you can choose 4-5 skills from the list of all skills and try to make best combinations that suits your play style. It's action base RPG, not PnP game with game master... so don't hold on D&D like a granny holds free bus seat, it's just franchise.
Let's use compromise which means both sides don't get entirely what they want so are unhappy but know the other side is unhappy....wait, or was it supposed to be positive...I always get this mixed up
Anyway, it's not going to be open world PvP and be limited to certain areas like Cryptic has done in their other games.
And it's not going to be excluded because it's a D&D MMO because the PvP aspect is a long an cultured part of the MMO whether you choose to participate in it or not. On this point I can concede as a long time D&D player AND MMO player.
This is EXACTLY what I was asking for! I know the devs are looking for examples how to further implement PvP in Foundry, here you go!
(Roleplaying whining and is there a roleplaying thread)
Nope,
no
roleplaying
threads.
Especially none ever encouraged by me.
Because only people ignorant of existing threads or validating borderline trollish retorts it just goes to whiners would post such replies otherwise.
Please no haves vs have nots one side vs the other.
This is not a purist D&D game. Or traditional MMO.
It's a hybridization of an Action MMO with a D&D theme. That means it faces the MMO theme and the D&D theme. Both sides have to learn to accept this, and that means PvP, just not PvP everywhere either. That's the company's call. If you can't accept it due to fundamental game beliefs, you can go and make your own fundamental game and have people yell at you how you're doing XYZ wrongly.
If you're not forced to play it or interact with it, then stop complaining about it.
I'm not forcing you all to ROLE PLAY and that is considered NOW "always done in D&D" yet Chainmail people will argue otherwise.
So PvP demanding world combat and D&Ders demanding never ever a second of conflict anywhere even in a PvP area, it's a not so bad, it's a nice a pace ahh shaaadup in ya face already and just leave the other side alone and do your thing!
You know what happens when you assume.....
*sigh* true. But to explain - 2 dailies, 3 encounter and 2 at-will are enabled in between rest. It does not mean that those are only powers(lol).
EDIT:
Also for people who can't bear consensual PvP or RP in the game. This link.
That's why I said "presume"
But when you do, you put an a*ss before u and me :P (No hard feelings)
To this day, I never forgot that Benny Hill bit...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hrLj8QEAgI
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