Just to note that my comments may be a little biased.
1. i want a Dragonslance mmo one day ;P
2. i was excited about this game untill i heard Cryptic was making it, then i was "well this is going to effin suck". I personally feel that their engines friggin suck after playing every one of their games for a month or so' to give it a fair shake' then I forget them due to horrid mechanics/animation/execution/ and who needs frigging instanced buildings anymore, upgrade from you celeron servers there craptic, ground combat STO anyone, hell they couldnt even scale the ship interiors properly, or the general repetitiveness of their missions in ANY game. and the fact that they were/are too lazy/ or the engines too <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, to fix the issues and using a generic engine that well basically failed for one game to make another and have it damn near fall off the map due to not fixing issues and the fact it wasnt made for the type of game it was... AND THERE FRIGGING USING THE SAME **** ENGINE AGAIN....so thats where im coming from.
I truely hope we dont have a DM, CTF, KotH, craptastic type PvP system. hopefully, craptic will adhere somewhat to canon. factions PvP, open World PvP, stuff like that sure, but not the generic run of the mill bs EVERY other mmo is spewing forth, not to mention that this is being billed as a true D&D game, plz dont <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> canon craptic.
Yea, kinda vented alot more that I planned on this one.
I don't know how to feel about it until i see how it is being implemented into the game.
I guess i am just scratching my head on the idea of MMORPG-style Player-verse-player in a Dungeons and Dragons setting.
I'm not against it or anything, but i don't want to see it being implemented so arbitrarily that a player-verse-player situation becomes a meaningless act of someone just wanting to kill another player for giggles (like how some block-head gamer shoots people in one of those horrid FPS games)
Perhaps I'm just too much of an old D&D nerd and I'm over-thinking it right now. xD
What's the point of Masive Multiplayer game if I can't play it VS other players O.o what would be the difference between Neverwinter and, let's say Dragonage?
I never felt such a trill in a game like when in Lineage 2 my clan had to capture a castle, and only few minutes left, or like when in Guild Wars we were arriving in olimp of heroes... ot in Eve online, while trespassing a zone where known criminal is assaulting ships.
If you don't like PvP, go play single player game, don't come here and cry just cause "some nasty assassin killed me while I was farming my 1000th mob".
What feeling is it to be in the dangerous place like Forgotten Realm if there is no a danger that someone can kill me anywhere. That adrenaline rush you feel while fighting some nasty ganker can't mach anything in solo play, and after u kill it and yell at him "INSTANT KARMA <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>"
I'm playing Diablo 3 since it's out... and no matter what Blizzard puts in new updates, I still got bored like hell farming same mobs over and over again, even in parties on higher difficulty... only rummors of possible PvP update and dueling got me back to play it again... I don't want to see such a brilliant idea like Neverwinter to be reduced to farm-grind-farm game just cause few cry-babies can't handle some healthy PvP.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Just to note that my comments may be a little biased.
1. i want a Dragonslance mmo one day ;P
2. i was excited about this game untill i heard Cryptic was making it, then i was "well this is going to effin suck". I personally feel that their engines friggin suck after playing every one of their games for a month or so' to give it a fair shake' then I forget them due to horrid mechanics/animation/execution/ and who needs frigging instanced buildings anymore, upgrade from you celeron servers there craptic, ground combat STO anyone, hell they couldnt even scale the ship interiors properly, or the general repetitiveness of their missions in ANY game. and the fact that they were/are too lazy/ or the engines too <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, to fix the issues and using a generic engine that well basically failed for one game to make another and have it damn near fall off the map due to not fixing issues and the fact it wasnt made for the type of game it was... AND THERE FRIGGING USING THE SAME **** ENGINE AGAIN....so thats where im coming from.
I truely hope we dont have a DM, CTF, KotH, craptastic type PvP system. hopefully, craptic will adhere somewhat to canon. factions PvP, open World PvP, stuff like that sure, but not the generic run of the mill bs EVERY other mmo is spewing forth, not to mention that this is being billed as a true D&D game, plz dont <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> canon craptic.
Yea, kinda vented alot more that I planned on this one.
What's the point of Masive Multiplayer game if I can't play it VS other players O.o what would be the difference between Neverwinter and, let's say Dragonage?
I never felt such a trill in a game like when in Lineage 2 my clan had to capture a castle, and only few minutes left, or like when in Guild Wars we were arriving in olimp of heroes... ot in Eve online, while trespassing a zone where known criminal is assaulting ships.
If you don't like PvP, go play single player game, don't come here and cry just cause "some nasty assassin killed me while I was farming my 1000th mob".
What feeling is it to be in the dangerous place like Forgotten Realm if there is no a danger that someone can kill me anywhere. That adrenaline rush you feel while fighting some nasty ganker can't mach anything in solo play, and after u kill it and yell at him "INSTANT KARMA <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>"
I'm playing Diablo 3 since it's out... and no matter what Blizzard puts in new updates, I still got bored like hell farming same mobs over and over again, even in parties on higher difficulty... only rummors of possible PvP update and dueling got me back to play it again... I don't want to see such a brilliant idea like Neverwinter to be reduced to farm-grind-farm game just cause few cry-babies can't handle some healthy PvP.
Is there a suggestion here or are you two just trolling?
If you kill somebody without reason, the guards will try to kill you as well and you can forget to deal with the merchants in town. You are a murderer and will be treated as an outlaw, kill on sight (depends on the area of town to reside in). Anybody who kills you then, will get a reward from the guards?
There should be areas in the town, where lawful folk shouldn't go then?
...
I'm not against it or anything, but i don't want to see it being implemented so arbitrarily that a player-verse-player situation becomes a meaningless act of someone just wanting to kill another player for giggles (like how some block-head gamer shoots people in one of those horrid FPS games)
...
PvP is probably restricted to arenas according to most hints on PvP being thrown. So you are not forced to PvP if you don't want to.
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leopardladyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
PvP is probably restricted to arenas according to most hints on PvP being thrown. So you are not forced to PvP if you don't want to.
Thank you gillrmn for this information, I was slightly worried about open-world pvp (and forced pvp) and this has calmed those worries.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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guinnjaguarMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
I think PvP is a mistake for this game play and DnD in general, it was never designed in a way to be fair and to do so would destroy the identity of the classes, etc.
There are a myriad of PvP centric games that do it as best as you could hope for, you can play DM all day in that new fantasy flavored unreal tournament clone that just released in Dec if all you want is PvP with MMORPG gameplay/skills.
The core audience for this I would go out on a limb and say are primarily PvE and enjoy a good single player RPG like the Balder's Gate, Dragon Age 1, etc.
If the game doesn't have enough content where it has to rely on PvP as a clutch to support longevity that's a different story and another nail in an already built coffin.
I'm not saying that PvP as part of the PvE experience where a rogue can go stealth in a city and gank a player out of site of the guards and take all their items doesn't have a place, but that is beyond the scope of what most games consider PvP and those PvP'ers saying PvE players should go play carebear land would cry rivers that it wouldn't be fair.
wasn't there a post where they slipped up that there would be capture the flags and things like that? I am guessing there would be an arena where there would be map for capture the flag, and etc the usual PvP stuff in fps games - plus there will be an option to duel anyone anywhere like in CO where you invite a "PvP yes" flagged person and do a casual duel.
Tere might be 1Vs1 competitions like in Rusty Hearts and also where free for all gankfest in arena or somewhere takes place like in other games.
My personal hopes for the PvP system are that it is non-existant, but seeing as that is unlikely to happen, I just hope that whatever system they add doesn't result in a negative impact on the PvE content.
Agreed.
Not that I dislike PvP, I don't, but it almost always inevitably leads to alot of QQ from certain elements of the population who have no self control. I generally dislike the community associated with PvP only play. I also feel that AD&D has always been about small scale social interactions within a PvE setting.
As long as balance and game design decisions are not changed or PvE elements are not put on hold to appease a vocal minority then by all means implement PvP however you see fit. Problem is most ofthen times PvP always detracts from the developers main focus based on the vocal minority.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
In a game based on Dungeons and Dragons, I have to pull out the old adage, "A DM that lets his players fight one another is a BAD dm."
You NEVER EVER EVER let your players fight one another in D&D. Ever. Not in any tabletop RPG, for that matter. It'll split the gaming group up. People will get very irate when another player kills their favorite character. It's happened.
This is no different in a video game version of the same types of games. Really it isn't. It's also no different for any RPG. (And no, I'm not referring to rocket propelled grenades! :-P)
Way back in the beginning of the MMO industry....someone decided it would be a good idea to let players fight one another...and it really does work in some settings. First person shooters, obviously. Ditto real time strategy games. But....whomever introduced it to RPG's.....should be dragged behind a truck driving over hot coals and glass at five miles an hour. It. Just. Doesn't. Work.
I've tried it several times in various games....read tons of posts on PvP forums, again in various games...virtually all of them, actually.
The ONE common theme I've seen is....PvP players are generally very dissatisfied with what game developers in MMORPG's have done/are doing to PvP. Nobody can find the "perfect" way to do it....because it simply shouldn't be there in the first place.
Again, all this is simply my opinions and reasoning from personal experiences I've had. It's not the -real- reason for anything. Is it?
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
I personally like open world PvP, but I also highly sympathize with players who don't. I also dislike being a low level getting smacked down right and left by high levels. Therefore I think a system where guilds can declare war on each other and so fight anywhere anytime (except when raiding a dungeon perhaps) would be awesome.
This would enable those wanting to do open world PvP to just join a PvP guild and fight other PvP guilds.
However, if a player did not want to engage in PvP, that player could just a) not join a guild, or b) join a non-PvP guild.
Since everyone is on one big server, this would give players the chance to either be involved with heavy PvP or not, or even just postpone PvP until endgame.
"Truth is absolute, so if you truly seek it, you can find only one answer."
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Well, this is An MMO even if its DnD. There will be PvP, but I can say (and kinda skirting around the NDA here) it won't be forced open world. PvP will be queued like any other delve, except I can't tell you the final number of combatants. Such things could be considered specifics and could change anyway if being tested out....
Well, this is An MMO even if its DnD. There will be PvP, but I can say (and kinda skirting around the NDA here) it won't be forced open world. PvP will be queued like any other delve, except I can't tell you the final number of combatants. Such things could be considered specifics and could change anyway if being tested out....
And I predict there will be forum rage, wailing and gnashing of teeth about balance, queue times, and a host of other "problems" with the PvP system in this game when it launches and throughout its life. Regardless of the amount of time and resources thrown at it, the PvP crowd will never be satisfied with it.
But then again, I could be wrong, and Cryptic will totally get PvP completely done right in Neverwinter.
>_>
<_<
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Well, on the plus side- it can't be worse than DDO's pvp.
No matter what- this will be the best D&D mmorpg for pvp ever.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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shinimas1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited January 2013
I could never understand why DnD players are against PvP in their MMOs. Isn't it fun to be able to backstab your fellow party members, because you turn out to be a Lawful Evil mother****** with an agenda?
I could never understand why DnD players are against PvP in their MMOs. Isn't it fun to be able to backstab your fellow party members, because you turn out to be a Lawful Evil mother****** with an agenda?
As I said before, there should be consequences for killing other characters. As a murderer you become an outlaw, living in the underground and cannot move along other characters (PC or NPC) without being recognized and attacked.
This would make sense from my point of view.
Excluded are fights in taverns for contest.
In EQ2 for example, when you did the betrayer quest, you couldn't come near the guards of any town until you built up enough reputation by fighting for the city you want to join. Something similar could be used with districts in Neverwinter?
And if I'm chaotic evil and I want in Sheldon Cooper style kill all my part members just before we loot a boos we just killed? :P
Ok, I'm against ninja style loot-steeling pvp, but a pvp system that punishes those who kill other unprovoked and rewards those who kill players marked as criminals would be much more interesting than classic pvp areas, arenas etc... Even the idea of Guild vs Guild sounds nice... if in game could be some kind of territory wars... so a guild that owns a castle that governs certain territory could get a % of all trades from NPC's and guilds could could fight each other, make sieges, or get just points by killing members of opposing guild anywhere on the map, so the guild that gets 1000 points first wins a war and some points that can use to increment guild status... there are so many ideas PvP can be implemented to benefit both pvp and pve players... so pvp can represent another goal in a game. you can choose to be farmer that do all quests and dungeos repeatedly till you make enough to buy or craft armor you want, or you can join a guild that makes raids on bosses or other castles and can help you in developing your character.
I hope that dev team will take this discussion in consideration and make us all happy once the game is out
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guinnjaguarMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
what you want is a sandbox game that hasn't been created yet and the closest you will get today is probably EVE Online. PvP in WoW or GW2 is as good as it's going to get in a themepark mmo, especially one that is instanced and centered around 1 specific area of the world.
Thus I don't really see why PvP is necessary at all, there are plenty of e-sports games out there that focus on PvP only, DnD was never about the themepark style of PvP and like I said that's way beyond the scope of this game and anyone would know that looking from the history of MMOs and developers.
But you know as the saying goes there's always a reason why we can't have nice things.
yes, eve online is a good example, Lineage 2 also... and I played both of them, so I know the game concept well. It's well implemented to satisfy both pvp and pve players. Me, personally never had problems with guys that came to kill me, you accept it as a part of a game, and seek revenge but as I know that the attacker will suffer consequences for attacking me, I never really bothered, and there were no so many attacks after all, but still... the trill of fighting a real human being is much more interesting and involving than fighting scripted NPCs.
If there would not be any pvp element, what the difference would be between MMo game and any other single player game? Now you will say that I can do quest with other players, but so i can in Diablo 3 and after a little bit it gets boring, repetitive... anyway, pvp rules would not apply in instance zones anyway, so this party-based PVE experience is guaranteed.
In "Dungeon and dragons online" there is PvP, and it's official D&D game (although it's only arena based, and it wasn't very well implemented... but that's on their DEV team, that sucked from the very beginning).
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guinnjaguarMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If there would not be any pvp element, what the difference would be between MMo game and any other single player game? Now you will say that I can do quest with other players, but so i can in Diablo 3 and after a little bit it gets boring, repetitive... anyway, pvp rules would not apply in instance zones anyway, so this party-based PVE experience is guaranteed.
In "Dungeon and dragons online" there is PvP, and it's official D&D game (although it's only arena based, and it wasn't very well implemented... but that's on their DEV team, that sucked from the very beginning).
The point is that PnP Roleplaying games were about players working as a team against NPCs. This evolved into the MUD and that evolved into games like Everquest which had dueling but no real PvP the way it is thought of today. EQ was basically taking the PnP RPG and letting people come together online and experience what it was like without having to set a time and place to meet with like minded individuals and find a DM, etc.
I think this genre has lost track of that simple truth and this is what has lead to it's decline in recent years. It's no longer MMORPG, but everything is an MMOG and when you want to play other players what you really want is a Sandbox world in the truest sense or Call of Duty.
Adding PvP to appease the masses who have no real concept of what RPG really means is disheartening in any game, but then this is probably why we have reality TV shows as well.
And again... you still can have that PnP experience in every MMORPG. Just go in any dungeon with your party. What I'm saying is that a goal of the game is lost, cause in PnP you would go in a dungeon just to have fun, you wouldn't come back there later to farm same boss over and over again, and that's what I see as a mindless reality TV shows audience.
The true goal of PvP is to give me that feeling that I'm still advancing, developing my character, even if I killed last boss, got best armor and weapons. I will still want to compare my char and see how am I doing something faster, better than a week ago, just it wouldn't be some scripted NPCs. but a real players. And I wouldn't be comparing our armor, weapons, but skills and minds, cause there is no victory like when you outwit you nemesis. Imagine 2 warriors in end game without PvP "Look at my sword, how big it is... No, you look at my ax and my full plate armor set! Wanna cross our weapons and see who's better? -NO, it's against D&D rules! We kill orcs and goblins only!"
The concept is simple, you don't like it, you don't do it. If you don't like to play a bard in D&D game, you don't... if you don't like to PvP... you don't, but but don't ruin that experience to others, just cause you tastes are different.
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guinnjaguarMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
And again... you still can have that PnP experience in every MMORPG. Just go in any dungeon with your party. What I'm saying is that a goal of the game is lost, cause in PnP you would go in a dungeon just to have fun, you wouldn't come back there later to farm same boss over and over again, and that's what I see as a mindless reality TV shows audience.
The true goal of PvP is to give me that feeling that I'm still advancing, developing my character, even if I killed last boss, got best armor and weapons. I will still want to compare my char and see how am I doing something faster, better than a week ago, just it wouldn't be some scripted NPCs. but a real players. And I wouldn't be comparing our armor, weapons, but skills and minds, cause there is no victory like when you outwit you nemesis. Imagine 2 warriors in end game without PvP "Look at my sword, how big it is... No, you look at my ax and my full plate armor set! Wanna cross our weapons and see who's better? -NO, it's against D&D rules! We kill orcs and goblins only!"
The concept is simple, you don't like it, you don't do it. If you don't like to play a bard in D&D game, you don't... if you don't like to PvP... you don't, but but don't ruin that experience to others, just cause you tastes are different.
What your describing is not Dungeons and Dragons, it's also not any modern mmorpg PvP since classes are balanced and homogenized to the detriment of the game. Sure you can progress in PvP, even CoD and it's ilk have ladders and rankings.
Also you misconstrue that I don't like PvP, I'm just saying PvP has it's place and it has to be done right, not as an after thought or something that has to be there because everyone else does it.
If you are a control wizard that can cc 4-5 things at once hypothetically speaking, thanks to PvP this will get nerfed, good bye solo op control wizard. This is what made EQ great, every class had it's own unique flavor and abilities and it worked because there was no PvP BS to balance for so nobody cried.
In my group , yes I want that OP control wizard, in PvP that's not fair whine whine nerf nerf.
So Dungeons and Dragons PnP was never about that video game style of PvP. Anything is possible in your imagination but this is a bit more limited so yeah.
I could never understand why DnD players are against PvP in their MMOs. Isn't it fun to be able to backstab your fellow party members, because you turn out to be a Lawful Evil mother****** with an agenda?
It's fun right up until you are the one being backstabbed. And oh, look. It's happened every gaming session so far. Pretty soon you're going to take your cheetos and go home, or find another group to play with.
No. As I said before, it breaks up gaming groups. I left mine because of a powergamer wanting to minmax every character that he rolled up and then complained the encounters weren't hard enough for him. The DM threw out harder monsters, killing the rest of the party. Hey, sounds familiar? It should. It's what happens when game developers balance the game around minmaxers and PvP considerations.
If you are a control wizard that can cc 4-5 things at once hypothetically speaking, thanks to PvP this will get nerfed, good bye solo op control wizard.
I've seen this exact thing happen in more than a few games. Because of PvP whining about overpowering, developers "rebalance" a powerset or ability to be "fairer" in PvP, thus totally ruining the class/power/ability in PvE. Yet, when PvE wants balance, requests are ignored, flamed and trolled right out of existence.
I realize the game has already been designed with PvP included...but I can (and will) state my dissatisfaction with that choice.
I also maintain that PvP has no true place in any MMORPG, but is just fine for FPSMMO's and RTSMMO's. The genre is not made for competition, but cooperation. (The MMORPG genre, that is.)
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
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syfylisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
Comments
1. i want a Dragonslance mmo one day ;P
2. i was excited about this game untill i heard Cryptic was making it, then i was "well this is going to effin suck". I personally feel that their engines friggin suck after playing every one of their games for a month or so' to give it a fair shake' then I forget them due to horrid mechanics/animation/execution/ and who needs frigging instanced buildings anymore, upgrade from you celeron servers there craptic, ground combat STO anyone, hell they couldnt even scale the ship interiors properly, or the general repetitiveness of their missions in ANY game. and the fact that they were/are too lazy/ or the engines too <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, to fix the issues and using a generic engine that well basically failed for one game to make another and have it damn near fall off the map due to not fixing issues and the fact it wasnt made for the type of game it was... AND THERE FRIGGING USING THE SAME **** ENGINE AGAIN....so thats where im coming from.
I truely hope we dont have a DM, CTF, KotH, craptastic type PvP system. hopefully, craptic will adhere somewhat to canon. factions PvP, open World PvP, stuff like that sure, but not the generic run of the mill bs EVERY other mmo is spewing forth, not to mention that this is being billed as a true D&D game, plz dont <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> canon craptic.
Yea, kinda vented alot more that I planned on this one.
Head on back to League of Legends if you want PvP.
See how that reversal went? OOOOoooOOOOOoo!!
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
I guess i am just scratching my head on the idea of MMORPG-style Player-verse-player in a Dungeons and Dragons setting.
I'm not against it or anything, but i don't want to see it being implemented so arbitrarily that a player-verse-player situation becomes a meaningless act of someone just wanting to kill another player for giggles (like how some block-head gamer shoots people in one of those horrid FPS games)
Perhaps I'm just too much of an old D&D nerd and I'm over-thinking it right now. xD
I never felt such a trill in a game like when in Lineage 2 my clan had to capture a castle, and only few minutes left, or like when in Guild Wars we were arriving in olimp of heroes... ot in Eve online, while trespassing a zone where known criminal is assaulting ships.
If you don't like PvP, go play single player game, don't come here and cry just cause "some nasty assassin killed me while I was farming my 1000th mob".
What feeling is it to be in the dangerous place like Forgotten Realm if there is no a danger that someone can kill me anywhere. That adrenaline rush you feel while fighting some nasty ganker can't mach anything in solo play, and after u kill it and yell at him "INSTANT KARMA <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>"
I'm playing Diablo 3 since it's out... and no matter what Blizzard puts in new updates, I still got bored like hell farming same mobs over and over again, even in parties on higher difficulty... only rummors of possible PvP update and dueling got me back to play it again... I don't want to see such a brilliant idea like Neverwinter to be reduced to farm-grind-farm game just cause few cry-babies can't handle some healthy PvP.
Is there a suggestion here or are you two just trolling?
If you kill somebody without reason, the guards will try to kill you as well and you can forget to deal with the merchants in town. You are a murderer and will be treated as an outlaw, kill on sight (depends on the area of town to reside in). Anybody who kills you then, will get a reward from the guards?
There should be areas in the town, where lawful folk shouldn't go then?
PvP is probably restricted to arenas according to most hints on PvP being thrown. So you are not forced to PvP if you don't want to.
Thank you gillrmn for this information, I was slightly worried about open-world pvp (and forced pvp) and this has calmed those worries.
There are a myriad of PvP centric games that do it as best as you could hope for, you can play DM all day in that new fantasy flavored unreal tournament clone that just released in Dec if all you want is PvP with MMORPG gameplay/skills.
The core audience for this I would go out on a limb and say are primarily PvE and enjoy a good single player RPG like the Balder's Gate, Dragon Age 1, etc.
If the game doesn't have enough content where it has to rely on PvP as a clutch to support longevity that's a different story and another nail in an already built coffin.
I'm not saying that PvP as part of the PvE experience where a rogue can go stealth in a city and gank a player out of site of the guards and take all their items doesn't have a place, but that is beyond the scope of what most games consider PvP and those PvP'ers saying PvE players should go play carebear land would cry rivers that it wouldn't be fair.
Tere might be 1Vs1 competitions like in Rusty Hearts and also where free for all gankfest in arena or somewhere takes place like in other games.
Agreed.
Not that I dislike PvP, I don't, but it almost always inevitably leads to alot of QQ from certain elements of the population who have no self control. I generally dislike the community associated with PvP only play. I also feel that AD&D has always been about small scale social interactions within a PvE setting.
As long as balance and game design decisions are not changed or PvE elements are not put on hold to appease a vocal minority then by all means implement PvP however you see fit. Problem is most ofthen times PvP always detracts from the developers main focus based on the vocal minority.
Character is what a man is in the dark
You NEVER EVER EVER let your players fight one another in D&D. Ever. Not in any tabletop RPG, for that matter. It'll split the gaming group up. People will get very irate when another player kills their favorite character. It's happened.
This is no different in a video game version of the same types of games. Really it isn't. It's also no different for any RPG. (And no, I'm not referring to rocket propelled grenades! :-P)
Way back in the beginning of the MMO industry....someone decided it would be a good idea to let players fight one another...and it really does work in some settings. First person shooters, obviously. Ditto real time strategy games. But....whomever introduced it to RPG's.....should be dragged behind a truck driving over hot coals and glass at five miles an hour. It. Just. Doesn't. Work.
I've tried it several times in various games....read tons of posts on PvP forums, again in various games...virtually all of them, actually.
The ONE common theme I've seen is....PvP players are generally very dissatisfied with what game developers in MMORPG's have done/are doing to PvP. Nobody can find the "perfect" way to do it....because it simply shouldn't be there in the first place.
Again, all this is simply my opinions and reasoning from personal experiences I've had. It's not the -real- reason for anything. Is it?
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
At least you're able to make that distinction.
Players opposing each other led to some of the best PnP experiences I've ever had.
This would enable those wanting to do open world PvP to just join a PvP guild and fight other PvP guilds.
However, if a player did not want to engage in PvP, that player could just a) not join a guild, or b) join a non-PvP guild.
Since everyone is on one big server, this would give players the chance to either be involved with heavy PvP or not, or even just postpone PvP until endgame.
didn't a dev confirm party vs party in capture the flag PvP? Should it not mean standard party - as 5 is the maximum number anyways?
And I predict there will be forum rage, wailing and gnashing of teeth about balance, queue times, and a host of other "problems" with the PvP system in this game when it launches and throughout its life. Regardless of the amount of time and resources thrown at it, the PvP crowd will never be satisfied with it.
But then again, I could be wrong, and Cryptic will totally get PvP completely done right in Neverwinter.
>_>
<_<
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
No matter what- this will be the best D&D mmorpg for pvp ever.
there is no such thing as lawful evil, not anymore.
As I said before, there should be consequences for killing other characters. As a murderer you become an outlaw, living in the underground and cannot move along other characters (PC or NPC) without being recognized and attacked.
This would make sense from my point of view.
Excluded are fights in taverns for contest.
In EQ2 for example, when you did the betrayer quest, you couldn't come near the guards of any town until you built up enough reputation by fighting for the city you want to join. Something similar could be used with districts in Neverwinter?
Ok, I'm against ninja style loot-steeling pvp, but a pvp system that punishes those who kill other unprovoked and rewards those who kill players marked as criminals would be much more interesting than classic pvp areas, arenas etc... Even the idea of Guild vs Guild sounds nice... if in game could be some kind of territory wars... so a guild that owns a castle that governs certain territory could get a % of all trades from NPC's and guilds could could fight each other, make sieges, or get just points by killing members of opposing guild anywhere on the map, so the guild that gets 1000 points first wins a war and some points that can use to increment guild status... there are so many ideas PvP can be implemented to benefit both pvp and pve players... so pvp can represent another goal in a game. you can choose to be farmer that do all quests and dungeos repeatedly till you make enough to buy or craft armor you want, or you can join a guild that makes raids on bosses or other castles and can help you in developing your character.
I hope that dev team will take this discussion in consideration and make us all happy once the game is out
Thus I don't really see why PvP is necessary at all, there are plenty of e-sports games out there that focus on PvP only, DnD was never about the themepark style of PvP and like I said that's way beyond the scope of this game and anyone would know that looking from the history of MMOs and developers.
But you know as the saying goes there's always a reason why we can't have nice things.
If there would not be any pvp element, what the difference would be between MMo game and any other single player game? Now you will say that I can do quest with other players, but so i can in Diablo 3 and after a little bit it gets boring, repetitive... anyway, pvp rules would not apply in instance zones anyway, so this party-based PVE experience is guaranteed.
In "Dungeon and dragons online" there is PvP, and it's official D&D game (although it's only arena based, and it wasn't very well implemented... but that's on their DEV team, that sucked from the very beginning).
The point is that PnP Roleplaying games were about players working as a team against NPCs. This evolved into the MUD and that evolved into games like Everquest which had dueling but no real PvP the way it is thought of today. EQ was basically taking the PnP RPG and letting people come together online and experience what it was like without having to set a time and place to meet with like minded individuals and find a DM, etc.
I think this genre has lost track of that simple truth and this is what has lead to it's decline in recent years. It's no longer MMORPG, but everything is an MMOG and when you want to play other players what you really want is a Sandbox world in the truest sense or Call of Duty.
Adding PvP to appease the masses who have no real concept of what RPG really means is disheartening in any game, but then this is probably why we have reality TV shows as well.
The true goal of PvP is to give me that feeling that I'm still advancing, developing my character, even if I killed last boss, got best armor and weapons. I will still want to compare my char and see how am I doing something faster, better than a week ago, just it wouldn't be some scripted NPCs. but a real players. And I wouldn't be comparing our armor, weapons, but skills and minds, cause there is no victory like when you outwit you nemesis. Imagine 2 warriors in end game without PvP "Look at my sword, how big it is... No, you look at my ax and my full plate armor set! Wanna cross our weapons and see who's better? -NO, it's against D&D rules! We kill orcs and goblins only!"
The concept is simple, you don't like it, you don't do it. If you don't like to play a bard in D&D game, you don't... if you don't like to PvP... you don't, but but don't ruin that experience to others, just cause you tastes are different.
What your describing is not Dungeons and Dragons, it's also not any modern mmorpg PvP since classes are balanced and homogenized to the detriment of the game. Sure you can progress in PvP, even CoD and it's ilk have ladders and rankings.
Also you misconstrue that I don't like PvP, I'm just saying PvP has it's place and it has to be done right, not as an after thought or something that has to be there because everyone else does it.
If you are a control wizard that can cc 4-5 things at once hypothetically speaking, thanks to PvP this will get nerfed, good bye solo op control wizard. This is what made EQ great, every class had it's own unique flavor and abilities and it worked because there was no PvP BS to balance for so nobody cried.
In my group , yes I want that OP control wizard, in PvP that's not fair whine whine nerf nerf.
So Dungeons and Dragons PnP was never about that video game style of PvP. Anything is possible in your imagination but this is a bit more limited so yeah.
It's fun right up until you are the one being backstabbed. And oh, look. It's happened every gaming session so far. Pretty soon you're going to take your cheetos and go home, or find another group to play with.
No. As I said before, it breaks up gaming groups. I left mine because of a powergamer wanting to minmax every character that he rolled up and then complained the encounters weren't hard enough for him. The DM threw out harder monsters, killing the rest of the party. Hey, sounds familiar? It should. It's what happens when game developers balance the game around minmaxers and PvP considerations.
I've seen this exact thing happen in more than a few games. Because of PvP whining about overpowering, developers "rebalance" a powerset or ability to be "fairer" in PvP, thus totally ruining the class/power/ability in PvE. Yet, when PvE wants balance, requests are ignored, flamed and trolled right out of existence.
I realize the game has already been designed with PvP included...but I can (and will) state my dissatisfaction with that choice.
I also maintain that PvP has no true place in any MMORPG, but is just fine for FPSMMO's and RTSMMO's. The genre is not made for competition, but cooperation. (The MMORPG genre, that is.)
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
My work: Heroes Blacksmith - Library
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?21051-Heroes-Blacksmith-Library