Disagreed 100%, I think the move makes total sense from a fantastical and inspiring way. I love melee, more importantly I almost always play 2-H'ed melee classes in games and its high time we get rewarded with skills and abilities that portray style, glitz and excitement like our magic using brethern have used since Time immemorial.
Oh don't get me wrong, as a 2h big damage loving guy myself, I love the AoE barrage! I can't wait to spin into a dozen skeletons and just blow them to bits. It's just the yellow spirals honestly made my nauseous. I would not be able to play the class with that animation, they'd find me dead on the floor from a seizure LOL. Hopefully I'll be able to change the effects settings in the UI control panel.
So far this is the type of class I am looking for; then at level 30...hmmm Iron Vanguard? Swordmaster? Ooooh Ooooh Oooooh...
while this will be my first class i am not to jazzed by as Andre put it the tazmanian devil whirlwind. I did not like the oversized anime type great sword either. I have practiced the western martial arts for some time and there is plenty of literature on the subject to make more realistic cool animations. This is looking more and more like an arcade game to me. DnD is rooted in the western martial arts with a splash of eastern influence not the other way around. While i am estatic about the great weapon fighter i would like to have confirmed if other great weapons will be in game as well.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2013
I think the influence here isn't eastern anime, it's western comic books and super powers. Look at the development team.
You guys are pointing your fingers at the wrong place.
That aside, it pleases me that the development team draws inspiration from more places than 30 year old DnD artwork.
Actually the greatsword is not really oversized. It is quite believable - considering that heroic adventurer means someone with better builds than olympic athletes
bitterwinterMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
For those who are complaining about Spinning Strike here is what the PHB 1 has to say about Vorpal Stike (which I'm assuming is cryptics version of it
"You become a whirling cyclone of death, spinning your weapon about as you strike one foe after another, pushing them back and knocking them down."
Sounds pretty much what was demonstrated.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2013
I'm also looking at the size of the greatsword in the massively preview and the size of the greatsword on page 5 of the player's handbook 1 and it looks pretty legit.
And I'm betting I could find much bigger swords in these books. But it's worth noting that I didn't have to go past page 5 to find one of comparable size.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
That's a much more rational approach. You have to understand that this game isn't just for 4e DnD fans - it isn't just for DnD fans of every edition - it isn't just for Cryptic fans and it isn't just for PWE fans - this game has to cater to a HUGE audience.
I simply don't understand when people insist that the game should be more exclusive than inclusive. When someone says, "it should cater exclusively to, say, the people who like ADnD, or people who don't like anime."
Well, anytime someone says it shouldn't include something, whether it's an art style like anime, or a play style like PvP, or a mechanic style like 4e, I'll be there to ask, "why not?"
Inclusivity and acceptance over exclusivity and opinions. (it's the way of the Tao)
McDonalds is the most popular (inclusive) restaurant in the world. Therefore it is the best. Right?
/McDonald's is quite profitable though.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
No, that was dumb too. But that's the way Cryptic is going with it.
Actually in 4e I think all rogues have the ability to tap into the Fade or something like that to use powers like teleport.
Others here are more knowledgeable about the lore.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
McDonalds is the most popular (inclusive) restaurant in the world. Therefore it is the best. Right?
/McDonald's is quite profitable though.
That's not the leap I would have made, but rest assured that they certainly do want to make a profitable game.
As of right now, I'm willing to stomach liberties they've taken with the lore and mechanics I've seen so far. In fact, I have no doubt Cryptic will be able to make a Dungeons and Dragons game true to the lore and spirit of the game.
My hesitation rests with PWE's management and monetization tactics.
ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2013
Not really. WotC establishes the canon of the game. What they say goes. The subject matter in this case is created by the authority. In order to be a fallacy, we would have to be appealing to WotC for a realm of knowledge outside their expertise. This realm of knowledge isn't just their expertise: it is theirs alone to dictate.
Also not all appeals to authority are fallacies just because some appeals to authority are fallacies.
Nonetheless, in short: if you don't like the lore, I suggest getting a job at WotC. Because complaining about it won't change it.
I thought the Spinning Strike was ridiculous. I agree it doesn't fit D&D. That's OK, because ultimately I think people are going to evaluate this game for its action-combat and not D&D anyway.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
I thought the Spinning Strike was ridiculous. I agree it doesn't fit D&D. That's OK, because ultimately I think people are going to evaluate this game for its action-combat and not D&D anyway.
as bitterwinter pointed out, this is from PHB1 for vorpal tornado:
"You become a whirling cyclone of death, spinning your weapon about as you strike one foe after another, pushing them back and knocking them down."
It's like the narrator for the great weapon fighter was reading straight from the book.
as bitterwinter pointed out, this is from PHB1 for vorpal tornado:
"You become a whirling cyclone of death, spinning your weapon about as you strike one foe after another, pushing them back and knocking them down."
It's like the narrator for the great weapon fighter was reading straight from the book.
Umm no. Thirty years of D&D, a dozen D&D computer games, scores of D&D novels... they carry far more weight then the flavor text of level 17 Fighter encounter power. Nobody who plays D&D has ever rationalized fighter abilities in the way portrayed with Spinning Strike.
D&D didn't start (and thankfully it won't remain) with 4th edition. You need to understand the pedigree of this game if you are to understand the objections that some of us have. The good news is that it need not stop NW from being a fun game. Over-the-top abilities are a part of the action-combat genre and that's just fine by me.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
Not really. WotC establishes the canon of the game. What they say goes. The subject matter in this case is created by the authority. In order to be a fallacy, we would have to be appealing to WotC for a realm of knowledge outside their expertise. This realm of knowledge isn't just their expertise: it is theirs alone to dictate.
Also not all appeals to authority are fallacies just because some appeals to authority are fallacies.
Nonetheless, in short: if you don't like the lore, I suggest getting a job at WotC. Because complaining about it won't change it.
And DnD has been big on house rules because people think the authority is wrong, well since day one. Heck, the whole NWO combat system is 4e inspired "house rules" because they either can't or don't wish to implement the actual 4e rules (I assume they could, but don't wish to). 4e combat itself is "wrong" for the game according to Cryptic, it's "4e inspired combat" remember.
"I suggest getting a job at WotC. Because complaining about it won't change it."
Go tell all the rest of the people in this thread who think the tasmanian devil animation is bad to get a job with WotC. Look at all the threads/posts where people beg for beta access so they can give feedback on what works and what doesn't. Tell them too.
The good news is that it need not stop NW from being a fun game. Over-the-top abilities are a part of the action-combat genre and that's just fine by me.
This is really the meat and potatoes that most hardcore, oldschool DnD fans will have to come to terms with.
And DnD has been big on house rules because people think the authority is wrong, well since day one.
And this is exactly what Cryptic is doing here.
Lets hope the Alpha testers are of a good mixed sort and that Cryptic - unlike so many producers - actually values their input more than their wallets.
Can we at least tone down the speed of the rotation? The non-existent footwork already makes it silly, though it's understandable how hard it would be to program that, but the rotation speed almost makes it seem like an actual tornado, strong winds and all, should come with that move.
As for the "it's magic" thing, I'm not very knowledgeable with the formal ruleset, but can textbook Fighters do that "with magic"? Magical items, maybe. But as an innate ability? I'm not so convinced.
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Can we at least tone down the speed of the rotation? The non-existent footwork already makes it silly, though it's understandable how hard it would be to program that, but the rotation speed almost makes it seem like an actual tornado, strong winds and all, should come with that move.
Tweaking the animation would be OK, but I wouldn't want it to get nerfed mechanically because of "realism".
I could see adding a momentary wind-up on each rotation so it looks less like a spinning top.
As for the "it's magic" thing, I'm not very knowledgeable with the formal ruleset, but can textbook Fighters do that "with magic"? Magical items, maybe. But as an innate ability? I'm not so convinced.
By the book, Fighters can do that without magic, and indeed, Fighters are described as not using magic (but stretching the bounds of physical possibility).
However, Rogues also don't get teleports by the book. I'm very glad they do here, and I think it's entirely appropriate to give Fighters magical effects.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Umm no. Thirty years of D&D, a dozen D&D computer games, scores of D&D novels... they carry far more weight then the flavor text of level 17 Fighter encounter power. Nobody who plays D&D has ever rationalized fighter abilities in the way portrayed with Spinning Strike.
D&D didn't start (and thankfully it won't remain) with 4th edition. You need to understand the pedigree of this game if you are to understand the objections that some of us have. The good news is that it need not stop NW from being a fun game. Over-the-top abilities are a part of the action-combat genre and that's just fine by me.
And DnD has been big on house rules because people think the authority is wrong, well since day one. Heck, the whole NWO combat system is 4e inspired "house rules" because they either can't or don't wish to implement the actual 4e rules (I assume they could, but don't wish to). 4e combat itself is "wrong" for the game according to Cryptic, it's "4e inspired combat" remember.
"I suggest getting a job at WotC. Because complaining about it won't change it."
Go tell all the rest of the people in this thread who think the tasmanian devil animation is bad to get a job with WotC. Look at all the threads/posts where people beg for beta access so they can give feedback on what works and what doesn't. Tell them too.
Folks, Whirlwind attack was in the D&D third forth (under another name) and fifth/Next rules, so it's quite cannon by now. I thought I'd had all I could see with those saying 4th ed wasn't going to work and we have to go back to 3rd, but never did I think I'd see they don't follow 4th edition rules! As a matter of fact no powers can be implemented in game without WOTC's approval. There are times where the pen and paper or tabletop rules just don't translate and WOTC allows a translation or theme for the MMO, but if something breaks the theme of fourth edition it's not approved. I can't go into private discussions they might have had with the owners of D&D but trust me this is true.
BTW, for the record, here is whirlwind attack as per 4th edition rules. I realize it's another name and epic, but it is what inspired this move:
Cruel Reaper
You swing your weapon in a wide arc, carving into adjacent foes and causing them to scream in agony. Without warning, you reposition and follow up with a spinning sweep.
Encounter Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Close burst 1
Primary Target: Each enemy you can see in the burst
Primary Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Effect: You can shift 2 squares, and then make the secondary attack.
Secondary Target: Each enemy you can see in the burst
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage.
So in this MMO: Outrageously done? Maybe. Any more than the other character's moves? No.
kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
GM: You are surrounded by kobolds!
Greatweapon Player: I enter Spinning Strike and become the whirling cuisinart of death!
GM: All creatures shorter than your waist are immune, as the angular momentum of your whirling cuisinart motion prevents you from holding the sword at an angle that hits them. Your greatsword passes right over their head. They get free attacks at your unguarded legs and lower torso.
GM: Two enemy drow fighters approach!
Greatweapon Player: I enter Spinning Strike and become the whirling cuisinart of death!
GM: Drow, having an intelligence greater than 10, simply duck. Your angular momentum prevents you from holding the sword at an angle that hits them. They get free attacks at your unguarded legs and lower torso.
GM: You are surrounded by kobolds!
Greatweapon Player: I enter Spinning Strike and become the whirling cuisinart of death!
GM: All creatures shorter than your waist are immune, as the angular momentum of your whirling cuisinart motion prevents you from holding the sword at an angle that hits them. Your greatsword passes right over their head. They get free attacks at your unguarded legs and lower torso.
Greatweapon Player: I spin more slowly, allowing the weapon tip to dip downwards to sweep through the kobold ranks!
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syfylisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
You guys really have that big problem with one skill? It's such a big issue?
There are way better things to talk about than how legs should look like when char spin.
Comments
Oh don't get me wrong, as a 2h big damage loving guy myself, I love the AoE barrage! I can't wait to spin into a dozen skeletons and just blow them to bits. It's just the yellow spirals honestly made my nauseous. I would not be able to play the class with that animation, they'd find me dead on the floor from a seizure LOL. Hopefully I'll be able to change the effects settings in the UI control panel.
So far this is the type of class I am looking for; then at level 30...hmmm Iron Vanguard? Swordmaster? Ooooh Ooooh Oooooh...
Exactly.
I actually dislike the weapon throw more.
The whirlwind is a daily power and therefore will be changeable anyway.
You guys are pointing your fingers at the wrong place.
That aside, it pleases me that the development team draws inspiration from more places than 30 year old DnD artwork.
You have a point but oversized weapons are an anime feature while the powers might certainly have a comic book feel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNc7kHADtUw
"You become a whirling cyclone of death, spinning your weapon about as you strike one foe after another, pushing them back and knocking them down."
Sounds pretty much what was demonstrated.
And I'm betting I could find much bigger swords in these books. But it's worth noting that I didn't have to go past page 5 to find one of comparable size.
/McDonald's is quite profitable though.
Actually in 4e I think all rogues have the ability to tap into the Fade or something like that to use powers like teleport.
Others here are more knowledgeable about the lore.
That's not the leap I would have made, but rest assured that they certainly do want to make a profitable game.
As of right now, I'm willing to stomach liberties they've taken with the lore and mechanics I've seen so far. In fact, I have no doubt Cryptic will be able to make a Dungeons and Dragons game true to the lore and spirit of the game.
My hesitation rests with PWE's management and monetization tactics.
It is not dumb because the rulemakers - the old mages who live on the coast - are the one who approve of it as they themselves have stated.
Now if you are saying you know more D&D than those who made it, and can change it whenever they like, then it other matter altogether.
Also not all appeals to authority are fallacies just because some appeals to authority are fallacies.
Nonetheless, in short: if you don't like the lore, I suggest getting a job at WotC. Because complaining about it won't change it.
as bitterwinter pointed out, this is from PHB1 for vorpal tornado:
"You become a whirling cyclone of death, spinning your weapon about as you strike one foe after another, pushing them back and knocking them down."
It's like the narrator for the great weapon fighter was reading straight from the book.
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.
- W.E.H.
Umm no. Thirty years of D&D, a dozen D&D computer games, scores of D&D novels... they carry far more weight then the flavor text of level 17 Fighter encounter power. Nobody who plays D&D has ever rationalized fighter abilities in the way portrayed with Spinning Strike.
D&D didn't start (and thankfully it won't remain) with 4th edition. You need to understand the pedigree of this game if you are to understand the objections that some of us have. The good news is that it need not stop NW from being a fun game. Over-the-top abilities are a part of the action-combat genre and that's just fine by me.
"I suggest getting a job at WotC. Because complaining about it won't change it."
Go tell all the rest of the people in this thread who think the tasmanian devil animation is bad to get a job with WotC. Look at all the threads/posts where people beg for beta access so they can give feedback on what works and what doesn't. Tell them too.
Speak for yourself, this class looks awesome, I cant wait to see the cleric.
And this is exactly what Cryptic is doing here.
Lets hope the Alpha testers are of a good mixed sort and that Cryptic - unlike so many producers - actually values their input more than their wallets.
As for the "it's magic" thing, I'm not very knowledgeable with the formal ruleset, but can textbook Fighters do that "with magic"? Magical items, maybe. But as an innate ability? I'm not so convinced.
Tweaking the animation would be OK, but I wouldn't want it to get nerfed mechanically because of "realism".
I could see adding a momentary wind-up on each rotation so it looks less like a spinning top.
By the book, Fighters can do that without magic, and indeed, Fighters are described as not using magic (but stretching the bounds of physical possibility).
However, Rogues also don't get teleports by the book. I'm very glad they do here, and I think it's entirely appropriate to give Fighters magical effects.
Folks, Whirlwind attack was in the D&D third forth (under another name) and fifth/Next rules, so it's quite cannon by now. I thought I'd had all I could see with those saying 4th ed wasn't going to work and we have to go back to 3rd, but never did I think I'd see they don't follow 4th edition rules! As a matter of fact no powers can be implemented in game without WOTC's approval. There are times where the pen and paper or tabletop rules just don't translate and WOTC allows a translation or theme for the MMO, but if something breaks the theme of fourth edition it's not approved. I can't go into private discussions they might have had with the owners of D&D but trust me this is true.
BTW, for the record, here is whirlwind attack as per 4th edition rules. I realize it's another name and epic, but it is what inspired this move:
So in this MMO: Outrageously done? Maybe. Any more than the other character's moves? No.
And if we need any reality, here's some person swinging a claymore.
But I'll continue it in the spirit of whirlwind attacks everywhere. If you don't like it, don't play it.
Just let us who follow D&D and like the move do.
And until you bring me a doctor's study showing epilepsy, we have nothing more to discuss about pulling it.
Greatweapon Player: I enter Spinning Strike and become the whirling cuisinart of death!
GM: All creatures shorter than your waist are immune, as the angular momentum of your whirling cuisinart motion prevents you from holding the sword at an angle that hits them. Your greatsword passes right over their head. They get free attacks at your unguarded legs and lower torso.
GM: Two enemy drow fighters approach!
Greatweapon Player: I enter Spinning Strike and become the whirling cuisinart of death!
GM: Drow, having an intelligence greater than 10, simply duck. Your angular momentum prevents you from holding the sword at an angle that hits them. They get free attacks at your unguarded legs and lower torso.
There are way better things to talk about than how legs should look like when char spin.
My work: Heroes Blacksmith - Library
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?21051-Heroes-Blacksmith-Library