GM: You are surrounded by kobolds!
Greatweapon Player: I enter Spinning Strike and become the whirling cuisinart of death!
GM: All creatures shorter than your waist are immune, as the angular momentum of your whirling cuisinart motion prevents you from holding the sword at an angle that hits them. Your greatsword passes right over their head. They get free attacks at your unguarded legs and lower torso.
....
PC: Dwarf gets your knees!
DM: I used to be an adventurer once, then I got a dwarf on my knee...
...
GM: Two enemy drow fighters approach!
Greatweapon Player: I enter Spinning Strike and become the whirling cuisinart of death!
GM: Drow, having an intelligence greater than 10, simply duck. Your angular momentum prevents you from holding the sword at an angle that hits them. They get free attacks at your unguarded legs and lower torso.
While the drow is hitting you, you HAMSTER. Having eaten exquisite herbs, your HAMSTER is now posonous for any humoid with advanced five senses. Drow dies due to low CON save.
moral:- DM is god - don't mess with DM power to explain anything. It serves no purpose.
You guys really have that big problem with one skill? It's such a big issue?
There are way better things to talk about than how legs should look like when char spin.
I have accepted that this stupid-looking move is going to be in the game. Just because I accept it does not mean I think it looks any less stupid. It won't stop me from playing the game. But I know that I'll be cringing and rolling my eyes every time I see this move go off.
You know, Wizards of the Coast may have approve this. There are many who feel that WotC has bastardized the D&D franchise over the years, with each edition dumbing something down. For all we know, the WotC guys are into anime and over-the-top fantasy games. Anyone remember the Dungeons and Dragons movie that came out a while back? I remember a lot of D&D players raging about how it killed the D&D name. Yet WotC approved of it.
Their approval may validate a developer or producer's vision, and I know that technically that is all that matters, but really the general reaction from the people who would buy the game or go see a movie based on D&D is an indication that WotC is as much out of touch with their audience as the producers and developers are.
This my friends is why so many MMOs fail. Because the developers in question don't really give a rip about what the players think of the product. Yes, I know that some players demand unreasonable things. But they also ask for reasonable things as well. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to distinguish between reasonable and unreasonable requests. But rather than discounting the unreasonable and making an effort to accomodate the reasonable, they just discount both, do their own thing, and then wonder why their initial sales and subscription numbers are so abismal compared to what they expected.
Of course, since with NWO, there will BE no initial sales OR subscriptions. So I guess that is just yet another way they get to dodge a bullet from a dis-satisfied audience hoping for an MMO that treats them and the IP it is based on with a measure of respect. After all, who cares of D&D fans are really happy with the product? It's free to play, so a potentially massive audience of players who won't care either way will come rolling in, and they'll spend money on the cash shop.
Yes, this Tasmanian Devil Mode thing is just one small detail. But for a lot of people, who have yet to be represented here as the true bulk of a game's community will not show up until launch, it's the little details that matter most. The sad thing is that these people are the ones who would stick with an MMO through thick and thin if they feel like the designers are treating them and the IP seriously.
SOE never really respected the Star Wars IP. And they never really respected their players. They changed the game twice to try to appeal to players they did not have while neglecting the two simple primary requests of the players they did have: "Fix the bugs" and "Add content that feels like it belongs in Star Wars". That is why SWG failed on a fundamental level. It wasn't because it was a sandbox game like so many want to say. It was because it was not Star Wars. It was just Starwarsy.
Well I think that people will say of NWO when it comes out that it isn't really Dungeons and Dragons, just Dungeonsanddragonsy.
Thank God I won't have to pay to play this game. Because after watching that video and seeing Tasmanian Devil Mode demonstrated, if it was buy to play or had a subscription, it would not have my money. Only one thing interests me about this game: The Foundry. Morbid curiosity will allow me to endure the rest of it. And I will not discount the possibility that it will, even with this silly looking garbage, grow on me and I may come to like it. But I will reserve final judgment until I am actually playing it.
Disagree with me all you want. I have my opinion and others have theirs. That's what these forums are for. Expressing opinion.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
You know all the moves in Daggerdale were very very realistic.
Know how many people played and liked it?
Then Demon Stone something made by RA Salvatore - the Drizzt moves were over the over top. And those parts of the games were praised for it. Lastly, it is not that unrealistic for an adventurer to pull it off. If you tone down the shinies and notch down the graphics a bit, you may find it acceptable. The problem for some is the shinies around the various moves, but whether D&D crowd likes shinies or not, they will be shown in trailers because that is what pulls in the youngsters today - like rock music in our era.
I have accepted that this stupid-looking move is going to be in the game. Just because I accept it does not mean I think it looks any less stupid. It won't stop me from playing the game. But I know that I'll be cringing and rolling my eyes every time I see this move go off.
You know, Wizards of the Coast may have approve this. There are many who feel that WotC has bastardized the D&D franchise over the years, with each edition dumbing something down. For all we know, the WotC guys are into anime and over-the-top fantasy games. Anyone remember the Dungeons and Dragons movie that came out a while back? I remember a lot of D&D players raging about how it killed the D&D name. Yet WotC approved of it.
Their approval may validate a developer or producer's vision, and I know that technically that is all that matters, but really the general reaction from the people who would buy the game or go see a movie based on D&D is an indication that WotC is as much out of touch with their audience as the producers and developers are.
This my friends is why so many MMOs fail. Because the developers in question don't really give a rip about what the players think of the product. Yes, I know that some players demand unreasonable things. But they also ask for reasonable things as well. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to distinguish between reasonable and unreasonable requests. But rather than discounting the unreasonable and making an effort to accomodate the reasonable, they just discount both, do their own thing, and then wonder why their initial sales and subscription numbers are so abismal compared to what they expected.
Of course, since with NWO, there will BE no initial sales OR subscriptions. So I guess that is just yet another way they get to dodge a bullet from a dis-satisfied audience hoping for an MMO that treats them and the IP it is based on with a measure of respect. After all, who cares of D&D fans are really happy with the product? It's free to play, so a potentially massive audience of players who won't care either way will come rolling in, and they'll spend money on the cash shop.
Yes, this Tasmanian Devil Mode thing is just one small detail. But for a lot of people, who have yet to be represented here as the true bulk of a game's community will not show up until launch, it's the little details that matter most. The sad thing is that these people are the ones who would stick with an MMO through thick and thin if they feel like the designers are treating them and the IP seriously.
SOE never really respected the Star Wars IP. And they never really respected their players. They changed the game twice to try to appeal to players they did not have while neglecting the two simple primary requests of the players they did have: "Fix the bugs" and "Add content that feels like it belongs in Star Wars". That is why SWG failed on a fundamental level. It wasn't because it was a sandbox game like so many want to say. It was because it was not Star Wars. It was just Starwarsy.
Well I think that people will say of NWO when it comes out that it isn't really Dungeons and Dragons, just Dungeonsanddragonsy.
Thank God I won't have to pay to play this game. Because after watching that video and seeing Tasmanian Devil Mode demonstrated, if it was buy to play or had a subscription, it would not have my money. Only one thing interests me about this game: The Foundry. Morbid curiosity will allow me to endure the rest of it. And I will not discount the possibility that it will, even with this silly looking garbage, grow on me and I may come to like it. But I will reserve final judgment until I am actually playing it.
Disagree with me all you want. I have my opinion and others have theirs. That's what these forums are for. Expressing opinion.
This might just be MY opinion, but your opinion makes it sounds like everyone who touches a respectable franchise is out to destroy it. All the devs, and even WOTC for that matter, are approving of this one move so that the D&D game and everything going for it will go down the toilet.
That's the impression I get from so many D&D fans that think the game must be catered specifically toward them, because they're the ones with the ideal concept of what D&D and FR should be. I know it sounds like I'm over-exaggerating, but all I can do is roll my eyes again whenever I hear the whiny "change it or I won't play" shtick.
Apparently, SOMEone thought that the decisions made so far have been satisfactory, whether graphics, mechanics, or canon content. If the ideas were truly malicious toward not only the fanbase, but the company's reputation, do you really think they'd still put it in? And as a hypothetical question just out of curiosity, who do you think is their target audience (asking legitimately because I'm curious about peoples' response): the newer MMORPG players or long-time pnp players?
This might just be MY opinion, but your opinion makes it sounds like everyone who touches a respectable franchise is out to destroy it. All the devs, and even WOTC for that matter, are approving of this one move so that the D&D game and everything going for it will go down the toilet.
That's the impression I get from so many D&D fans that think the game must be catered specifically toward them, because they're the ones with the ideal concept of what D*D and FR should be. I know it sounds like I'm over-exaggerating, but all I can do is roll my eyes again whenever I hear the whiny "change it or I won't play" shtick.
Apparently, SOMEone thought that the decisions made so far have been satisfactory, whether graphics, mechanics, or canon content. If the ideas were truly malicious toward not only the fanbase, but the company's reputation, do you really think they'd still put it in?
I can (believe it or not) see both sides of the argument, but my question to those that disagrees with myself and sirsitsalot is.
Where do they draw the line? How far is too far? Should we have gnomish motorcycles? Will it be acceptable for your trickster Rogue to look like a character from Bubblegum Crises?
Hey folks love that HAMSTER put it in!!! We can sell items in the cash shop!!! Don't be so serious!!!! I know!! We can offer an Okagu girl clothing set with a bigass old time flash camera!!! Ub3R!!!!!! :rolleyes:
Every MMO developer and their ugly sister has gone down this road, we even seen some pretty damn ridiculous things in STO much to the chagrin of Trekkies everywhere, the one lone exception seems to be LOTRO only because the Tolkien estate has a very tight leash on that IP...but after watching the latest D&D movie we pretty much know that wotc/hasbro will HAMSTER out the IP for whatever they can get out of it. It just doesn't have to be that way and can still be very profitable without trying to appeal to the pop culture masses.
Next up on the c-store own the sorceress Kardashia cloak of Kayne for only 400 zen!
You know all the moves in Daggerdale were very very realistic.
Know how many people played and liked it?
Then Demon Stone something made by RA Salvatore - the Drizzt moves were over the over top. And those parts of the games were praised for it. Lastly, it is not that unrealistic for an adventurer to pull it off. If you tone down the shinies and notch down the graphics a bit, you may find it acceptable. The problem for some is the shinies around the various moves, but whether D&D crowd likes shinies or not, they will be shown in trailers because that is what pulls in the youngsters today - like rock music in our era.
Straw man; Daggerdale sucked in a multitude of ways and is another example of WotC not giving a damn about their IP, it had nothing to do with the realistic moves.
C'mon gillrmn, you're a better than to use such a lame example.
Where do they draw the line? How far is too far? Should we have gnomish motorcycles? Will it be acceptable for your trickster Rogue to look like a character from Bubblegum Crises?
Motorcycles are clearly outside of D&D, and the art design of Bubblegum Crises is nothing like what D&D has ever had. There is no valid slippery slope into those things because they are clearly contrary to tabletop D&D.
What we're talking about here is an animation. There is no animation in tabletop D&D, so there's no such thing as "too far" from D&D. Animation is something that every video game adaptation has to come up with on its own. And while I see an animation that could stand to be improved a bit (whether it was a D&D game or not), I do not see one that is, in intent, outside of what a video game adaptation of D&D should reasonably have.
Straw man; Daggerdale sucked in a multitude of ways and is another example of WotC not giving a damn about their IP, it had nothing to do with the realistic moves.
C'mon gillrmn, you're a better than to use such a lame example.
Yeah it is a staw man's argument - however I am talking in context of reviews of Daggerdale.
Daggerdale was praised for using roles in combat, good environment in later game(when finally they climb out of the caves) but about combat and animation - all the reviews agreed it was boring. In fact I brought up on one of the forum boards that animations in combat were actually realistic but all responses were understandably hostile. Basically people find realistic combat - boring.
The problem with D&D crowd is they don't know what they want. If you present them realistic combat, it is boring. When you present a combat in which when you hit the creature it flies off and hits the wall taking blow from sword with weight less than creature - its unrealistic. And problem with realism is - no one can draw the line except for WotC for what is real and what not.
What we're talking about here is an animation. There is no animation in tabletop D&D, so there's no such thing as "too far" from D&D. Animation is something that every video game adaptation has to come up with on its own. And while I see an animation that could stand to be improved a bit (whether it was a D&D game or not), I do not see one that is, in intent, outside of what a video game adaptation of D&D should reasonably have.
So you would be cool with D&D fights that look like this? I mean we have no real visual reference how D&D fights look...right?
Never mind some of the incredibly detailed fight scenes that Salavtore wrote about that could easily be transferred to animations.
Yeah it is a staw man's argument - however I am talking in context of reviews of Daggerdale.
Daggerdale was praised for using roles in combat, good environment in later game(when finally they climb out of the caves) but about combat and animation - all the reviews agreed it was boring. In fact I brought up on one of the forum boards that animations in combat were actually realistic but all responses were understandably hostile. Basically people find realistic combat - boring.
The problem with D&D crowd is they don't know what they want. If you present them realistic combat, it is boring. When you present a combat in which when you hit the creature it flies off and hits the wall taking blow from sword with weight less than creature - its unrealistic. And problem with realism is - no one can draw the line except for WotC for what is real and what not.
Agreed... I think however they can find a happy balance, but the spin doctor move is just silly looking.
Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Well... I think next class officially released really needs to be a Cleric, we need a healer for Dungeons. Clerics can do other things then heal, but there is no doubt that Cleric class is one of the most powerful healers in this game. Yes developers has mentioned Cleric before, but I mean release like officially see trailer of Cleric class etc.
Since it seems Neverwinter early 2013 release is buried I would also point out that maybe we can expect more then 5 classes at release. For example I would love to see a Ranger, Druid or Paladin released.
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No. I am entirely at a loss as to what in my posts has lead you to believe I would. Your response is a total non sequitor.
In addition, that appears to be about as completely unlike the animation we're discussing as animation could possibly be. If anything, that video undermines your assertion that the whirlwind animation is somehow "anime".
No. I am entirely at a loss as to what in my posts has lead you to believe I would. Your response is a total non sequitor.
In addition, that appears to be about as completely unlike the animation we're discussing as animation could possibly be. If anything, that video undermines your assertion that the whirlwind animation is somehow "anime".
No need to be snarky, I was hardly being nonsensical; it was a honest question because you said there is no such thing as too far, and my video choice was to depict a over the top combat scene and ask since there was no such thing as too far, if that would be okay, anime didn't even play into it.
No need to be snarky, I was hardly being nonsensical; it was a honest question because you said there is no such thing as too far, and my video choice was to depict a over the top combat scene and ask since there was no such thing as too far, if that would be okay, anime didn't even play into it.
All caught up now?
I said there's no such thing as animation that is too far from D&D. You missed that qualifier apparently. Nearness or farness from D&D is undefinable in regards to animation because animation does not exist in D&D.
There are plenty of other reasons to like or dislike a particular animation style, and I'm not denying the validity of those reasons. I wouldn't want Neverwinter be animated like that video because I don't like that animation style. It's far too static. Which, incidentally, is the opposite of the whirlwind animation.
And I also wouldn't want it to look like that video because the art design is obviously foreign to D&D. But that has nothing to do with the whirlwind animation. The character models themselves are very consistent with modern D&D art.
Yes I don't know why game developers seem to always make weapons look like they were made for a Frost Giant, I wish they would go for a more realistic size...makes no sense at all. Otherwise this class looks awesome!
What exactly is a "realistic sword size"? I just did a quick google search, it it's telling me that 2-handed swords are typically between 4-5 feet long. And humans are around what? 5.5-6 feet? The length of the 2-handed sword in the videos looks just about right. And the it didn't look particularly thick either, like those typical anime swords that cover your entire back.
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bitterwinterMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
What exactly is a "realistic sword size"? I just did a quick google search, it it's telling me that 2-handed swords are typically between 4-5 feet long. And humans are around what? 5.5-6 feet? The length of the 2-handed sword in the videos looks just about right. And the it didn't look particularly thick either, like those typical anime swords that cover your entire back.
Exactly look at the photos of humans with two handers here
I guess the best thing any of us can do is get it through our thick skulls that this is just a game, and that there will be absolutely no effort put forth by the developers to make it seem like anything more. With that reasoning, fine. Bring on the Tasmanian Devil class!
I'm looking forward to seeing a party of all great weapon fighters spinning at the same time hahahaha :cool:
What exactly is a "realistic sword size"? I just did a quick google search, it it's telling me that 2-handed swords are typically between 4-5 feet long. And humans are around what? 5.5-6 feet? The length of the 2-handed sword in the videos looks just about right. And the it didn't look particularly thick either, like those typical anime swords that cover your entire back.
I have tried my hands on 2 handed sword(Greatsword), and yes they are long. It is longer than usual HAMSTER swords(or Claymore) you see - and they were not used a lot due to them breaking - steel at that time was not very ductile you see. To spin a greatsword is tough as it is more like it spins you. However bringing it down by holding it high is easier. some of them are thicker than shown in videos, but then they are shorter
Anyways, not to go off-topic - in the end size and all depends on the strength and purity of steel, not on whether it can be wielded or not. Stronger people can wield much heavier weapons too. In Faerun you use magic in making swords. It is not inconcievable than admantine impurities make a steel lighter and stronger + enchantments. That is something to consider.
The only point I find myself slightly at odds with this class variant is how it seems so much about brute force.
In my D&D4e game, I have this huge fighter whom wields a greatsword. He's definitely strong, but most of his powers have to do with going from one target to the other while striking them on the way. He feels mobile, his strikes being more decisive than being this massive pounding.
I find it kind of a shame to not see anything in the way of animations like you'd see from slashing with a two-handed katana. Something with the mobile style of the trickster role, but adapted so to look just at home with races like elves, drow and 'civilized' humans... because frankly all the Great weapon fighter remainds me of is a Barbarian, not a Fighter.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You know all the moves in Daggerdale were very very realistic.
Know how many people played and liked it?
Then Demon Stone something made by RA Salvatore - the Drizzt moves were over the over top. And those parts of the games were praised for it. Lastly, it is not that unrealistic for an adventurer to pull it off. If you tone down the shinies and notch down the graphics a bit, you may find it acceptable. The problem for some is the shinies around the various moves, but whether D&D crowd likes shinies or not, they will be shown in trailers because that is what pulls in the youngsters today - like rock music in our era.
[and multiple other posts with the d-word]
Daggerdale, what's Dagger....
*remembers screaming in agony*
YOU PROMISED GIL YOU PROMISED! ATARI ATARI ATARI!
*Runs off in pain slamming his head against the wall until passing out and...forgetting...something*
What exactly is a "realistic sword size"? I just did a quick google search, it it's telling me that 2-handed swords are typically between 4-5 feet long. And humans are around what? 5.5-6 feet? The length of the 2-handed sword in the videos looks just about right. And the it didn't look particularly thick either, like those typical anime swords that cover your entire back.
I have tried my hands on 2 handed sword(Greatsword), and yes they are long. It is longer than usual HAMSTER swords(or Claymore) you see - and they were not used a lot due to them breaking - steel at that time was not very ductile you see. To spin a greatsword is tough as it is more like it spins you. However bringing it down by holding it high is easier. some of them are thicker than shown in videos, but then they are shorter
Anyways, not to go off-topic - in the end size and all depends on the strength and purity of steel, not on whether it can be wielded or not. Stronger people can wield much heavier weapons too. In Faerun you use magic in making swords. It is not inconcievable than admantine impurities make a steel lighter and stronger + enchantments. That is something to consider.
I've seen real life Claymores and TH swords in action. Respectfully, I had no nicer way of saying it since so many people are blinded to one thing "ruining their game" while ignoring glaring other things (like rogues teleporting or entering the shadowfel for a daily power which is even more in MMO or having wizards with a kung-fu stance as not game breaking,) some people don't know what they are talking about. The quotes are on the mark. You don't like the spin steps or length, you spend time coding EVERY step, and then as the weeks to months go by with both the work, the testing the QA and the recoding and the retesting, have people ask you why the class isn't ready to show again and again and again.
You can't have it both ways.
This is not he apocalyptic Doom of the game. heck, even the (2012) apocalypse didn't happen, so if you don''t like it, fine.
But wait until you test it before deciding your whole future, as all of this could CHANGE from the community's testing.
Or just assume you're right and your view is always the "normal" one and wonder why people keep saying the criticism isn't considered fully constructive.
So come with this with facts (and not blinder hate on the subject ignoring everything else not similar to this in regards to "exaggeration,") or continue to post and risk coming off like this.
This view does not necessarily reflect Cryptic/PWE and its associates, but does not not necessarily reflect it either.
ugh....why is it anytime anyone doesn't like something in this game they are hating? Why is it when someone supports something the are a HAMSTER licking fanboi? You can support or dislike and not be either ya know. :rolleyes:
As for the size of the two handed swords there were some big HAMSTER two handers, most of them were used against Calvary though and not as a man to man weapon.... one of the moves I liked was in the back sweep the fighter inverts his wrist and rests the blade on his shoulder which is a very realistic move....the rouge deft strike isn't actually teleporting...your looking at the abstract representation of quickly appearing behind a target, and just because a game has magic and other fantastical things shouldn't justify anything goes even at the expense of the integrity of decades of D&D.
Hercules and Xena were fantasy Television shows....that doesn't mean the fights scenes weren't cringe worthy and folks wouldn't rather watch Game Of Thrones or Lord of the rings, it's a matter of taste and many of us don't care for the mad spinning dervish, it doesn't make us haters we just think it looks incredibly stupid is all.
ugh....why is it anytime anyone doesn't like something in this game they are hating? Why is it when someone supports something the are a HAMSTER licking fanboi? You can support or dislike and not be either ya know. :rolleyes:
You're entitled to your own aesthetic preferences, of course. The issue I take is when you portray your personal aesthetic preferences as being the one true way to represent D&D properly. I do not believe there is any basis to elevating your opinion in that way.
the rouge deft strike isn't actually teleporting...your looking at the abstract representation of quickly appearing behind a target
It clearly is teleporting. Otherwise, it would imply an utterly inhuman amount of speed. Either way, you'd need magic to justify it.
In addition, Trickster Rogues are described as teleporting in the PC Gamer article, and one of the prerendered teaser trailer videos shows a Rogue-styled character unambiguously teleporting.
just because a game has magic and other fantastical things shouldn't justify anything goes even at the expense of the integrity of decades of D&D.
I don't see what "integrity" is lost by giving martial classes bits of magic that fit with their overall theme.
If it gets us past "realism" nonsense, and into what makes for fun to play game mechanics, I'm all for it. And the whirlwind move looks like a lot of fun to play.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
The only point I find myself slightly at odds with this class variant is how it seems so much about brute force.
I'll try to look for the reference on this - I think it was the PC gamer article - that said that at level 30, when characters choose their Paragon Paths, the Great Weapon Fighter can choose a path that focuses on either attack or defense. I think the defensive one was Vanguard of Steel or something like that.
I'll look for it.
Edit: Found it. From Zeke Sparks in the PC Gamer article -
"...it's possible to pick a class specialization at level 30. The Great Weapon Fighter, for example, can either be the tank-oriented Iron Vanguard or the DPS-centric Swordmaster."
... steel, iron, adamantium, whatever :P
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mewbreyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 517Bounty Hunter
edited January 2013
Kinda surprised we have not seen any cleric videos yet, but we have seen two warrior based ones.
Cant wait too see the cleric one however, super excited at this point!
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
The last several posts answered themselves so I'll focus on the cleric one for a momentary off topic:
The non release of videos with a leaked class often means there is an overhaul in the said class's abilities before it's eady to be shown. I can all but guarantee you some of the powers seen already are likely still going to have this even with most dev testing done as players are allowed into testing and try things out others who make and test the game have lost an outside perspective on.
I could try and get examples, but that then means details and I'd be under NDA and couldn't share them. At best I'd be able to do a "Hunt for Red October" type of disclosure and they'd "offer" me more access but under the offer of said NDA.
So I leave the rest to the Devs and marketers to release and cannot mention anything from my sources at this time not already leaked.
You're entitled to your own aesthetic preferences, of course. The issue I take is when you portray your personal aesthetic preferences as being the one true way to represent D&D properly. I do not believe there is any basis to elevating your opinion in that way.
No I never said there was one true way, I'm voicing what I and many older D&D players thinks looks stupid...and that isn't going to go away. Right now we have a tiny forum community, if it grows you are going to get a flood of people saying what I'm saying. The same thing happened over at the STO forums pre-beta and it really caught cryptic off guard when the throngs of hard core Trekkies showed up. Comparatively I'm being kind about it....the Neverwinter Nights and PnP old guard won't be.
It clearly is teleporting. Otherwise, it would imply an utterly inhuman amount of speed. Either way, you'd need magic to justify it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8JOAWgQtDU It must be magic!!!!!!! :rolleyes: I have seen with my own eyes things you would think was impossible (someone standing beside you and vanishing and showing up several yards away ) that doesn't make it supernatural.
In addition, Trickster Rogues are described as teleporting in the PC Gamer article, and one of the prerendered teaser trailer videos shows a Rogue-styled character unambiguously teleporting.
LOL! reading that article you can tell the person who wrote it knows jack all about Neverwinter Nights or D&D so he applied a common FPS term; I know some of the guys that worked on the third and fourth edition and they will tell you they cringe when people attach words like teleport to the trickster rogue.
I don't see what "integrity" is lost by giving martial classes bits of magic that fit with their overall theme.
If it gets us past "realism" nonsense, and into what makes for fun to play game mechanics, I'm all for it. And the whirlwind move looks like a lot of fun to play.
It hurts just handing martial classes innate magic because they don't have it in the pen and paper game, that is like giving a two headed troll the ability cast magic missile...sure it would be fun to some folks, but it has nothing to do with D&D.
Finally, as far as the "realism nonsense" goes....a lot of well known IP's turned MMO's have tanked because they gave the finger to the veteran fans to "fun" it up, you can have fun and still respect the IP; if this game loses the support of veteran D&D players and the Neverwinter Nights community you will come back here in two years and see about as many people as you see now, which would be disastrous.
Kinda surprised we have not seen any cleric videos yet, but we have seen two warrior based ones.
Cant wait too see the cleric one however, super excited at this point!
They want to make sure they get the bunny hopping defibrillator animation just right first.
Comments
PC: Dwarf gets your knees!
DM: I used to be an adventurer once, then I got a dwarf on my knee...
While the drow is hitting you, you HAMSTER. Having eaten exquisite herbs, your HAMSTER is now posonous for any humoid with advanced five senses. Drow dies due to low CON save.
moral:- DM is god - don't mess with DM power to explain anything. It serves no purpose.
I have accepted that this stupid-looking move is going to be in the game. Just because I accept it does not mean I think it looks any less stupid. It won't stop me from playing the game. But I know that I'll be cringing and rolling my eyes every time I see this move go off.
You know, Wizards of the Coast may have approve this. There are many who feel that WotC has bastardized the D&D franchise over the years, with each edition dumbing something down. For all we know, the WotC guys are into anime and over-the-top fantasy games. Anyone remember the Dungeons and Dragons movie that came out a while back? I remember a lot of D&D players raging about how it killed the D&D name. Yet WotC approved of it.
Their approval may validate a developer or producer's vision, and I know that technically that is all that matters, but really the general reaction from the people who would buy the game or go see a movie based on D&D is an indication that WotC is as much out of touch with their audience as the producers and developers are.
This my friends is why so many MMOs fail. Because the developers in question don't really give a rip about what the players think of the product. Yes, I know that some players demand unreasonable things. But they also ask for reasonable things as well. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to distinguish between reasonable and unreasonable requests. But rather than discounting the unreasonable and making an effort to accomodate the reasonable, they just discount both, do their own thing, and then wonder why their initial sales and subscription numbers are so abismal compared to what they expected.
Of course, since with NWO, there will BE no initial sales OR subscriptions. So I guess that is just yet another way they get to dodge a bullet from a dis-satisfied audience hoping for an MMO that treats them and the IP it is based on with a measure of respect. After all, who cares of D&D fans are really happy with the product? It's free to play, so a potentially massive audience of players who won't care either way will come rolling in, and they'll spend money on the cash shop.
Yes, this Tasmanian Devil Mode thing is just one small detail. But for a lot of people, who have yet to be represented here as the true bulk of a game's community will not show up until launch, it's the little details that matter most. The sad thing is that these people are the ones who would stick with an MMO through thick and thin if they feel like the designers are treating them and the IP seriously.
SOE never really respected the Star Wars IP. And they never really respected their players. They changed the game twice to try to appeal to players they did not have while neglecting the two simple primary requests of the players they did have: "Fix the bugs" and "Add content that feels like it belongs in Star Wars". That is why SWG failed on a fundamental level. It wasn't because it was a sandbox game like so many want to say. It was because it was not Star Wars. It was just Starwarsy.
Well I think that people will say of NWO when it comes out that it isn't really Dungeons and Dragons, just Dungeonsanddragonsy.
Thank God I won't have to pay to play this game. Because after watching that video and seeing Tasmanian Devil Mode demonstrated, if it was buy to play or had a subscription, it would not have my money. Only one thing interests me about this game: The Foundry. Morbid curiosity will allow me to endure the rest of it. And I will not discount the possibility that it will, even with this silly looking garbage, grow on me and I may come to like it. But I will reserve final judgment until I am actually playing it.
Disagree with me all you want. I have my opinion and others have theirs. That's what these forums are for. Expressing opinion.
but I play one on the forums...
:P
You know all the moves in Daggerdale were very very realistic.
Know how many people played and liked it?
Then Demon Stone something made by RA Salvatore - the Drizzt moves were over the over top. And those parts of the games were praised for it. Lastly, it is not that unrealistic for an adventurer to pull it off. If you tone down the shinies and notch down the graphics a bit, you may find it acceptable. The problem for some is the shinies around the various moves, but whether D&D crowd likes shinies or not, they will be shown in trailers because that is what pulls in the youngsters today - like rock music in our era.
This might just be MY opinion, but your opinion makes it sounds like everyone who touches a respectable franchise is out to destroy it. All the devs, and even WOTC for that matter, are approving of this one move so that the D&D game and everything going for it will go down the toilet.
That's the impression I get from so many D&D fans that think the game must be catered specifically toward them, because they're the ones with the ideal concept of what D&D and FR should be. I know it sounds like I'm over-exaggerating, but all I can do is roll my eyes again whenever I hear the whiny "change it or I won't play" shtick.
Apparently, SOMEone thought that the decisions made so far have been satisfactory, whether graphics, mechanics, or canon content. If the ideas were truly malicious toward not only the fanbase, but the company's reputation, do you really think they'd still put it in? And as a hypothetical question just out of curiosity, who do you think is their target audience (asking legitimately because I'm curious about peoples' response): the newer MMORPG players or long-time pnp players?
I can (believe it or not) see both sides of the argument, but my question to those that disagrees with myself and sirsitsalot is.
Where do they draw the line? How far is too far? Should we have gnomish motorcycles? Will it be acceptable for your trickster Rogue to look like a character from Bubblegum Crises?
Hey folks love that HAMSTER put it in!!! We can sell items in the cash shop!!! Don't be so serious!!!! I know!! We can offer an Okagu girl clothing set with a bigass old time flash camera!!! Ub3R!!!!!! :rolleyes:
Every MMO developer and their ugly sister has gone down this road, we even seen some pretty damn ridiculous things in STO much to the chagrin of Trekkies everywhere, the one lone exception seems to be LOTRO only because the Tolkien estate has a very tight leash on that IP...but after watching the latest D&D movie we pretty much know that wotc/hasbro will HAMSTER out the IP for whatever they can get out of it. It just doesn't have to be that way and can still be very profitable without trying to appeal to the pop culture masses.
Next up on the c-store own the sorceress Kardashia cloak of Kayne for only 400 zen!
Straw man; Daggerdale sucked in a multitude of ways and is another example of WotC not giving a damn about their IP, it had nothing to do with the realistic moves.
C'mon gillrmn, you're a better than to use such a lame example.
Motorcycles are clearly outside of D&D, and the art design of Bubblegum Crises is nothing like what D&D has ever had. There is no valid slippery slope into those things because they are clearly contrary to tabletop D&D.
What we're talking about here is an animation. There is no animation in tabletop D&D, so there's no such thing as "too far" from D&D. Animation is something that every video game adaptation has to come up with on its own. And while I see an animation that could stand to be improved a bit (whether it was a D&D game or not), I do not see one that is, in intent, outside of what a video game adaptation of D&D should reasonably have.
Yeah it is a staw man's argument - however I am talking in context of reviews of Daggerdale.
Daggerdale was praised for using roles in combat, good environment in later game(when finally they climb out of the caves) but about combat and animation - all the reviews agreed it was boring. In fact I brought up on one of the forum boards that animations in combat were actually realistic but all responses were understandably hostile. Basically people find realistic combat - boring.
The problem with D&D crowd is they don't know what they want. If you present them realistic combat, it is boring. When you present a combat in which when you hit the creature it flies off and hits the wall taking blow from sword with weight less than creature - its unrealistic. And problem with realism is - no one can draw the line except for WotC for what is real and what not.
So you would be cool with D&D fights that look like this? I mean we have no real visual reference how D&D fights look...right?
Never mind some of the incredibly detailed fight scenes that Salavtore wrote about that could easily be transferred to animations.
Agreed... I think however they can find a happy balance, but the spin doctor move is just silly looking.
Since it seems Neverwinter early 2013 release is buried I would also point out that maybe we can expect more then 5 classes at release. For example I would love to see a Ranger, Druid or Paladin released.
No. I am entirely at a loss as to what in my posts has lead you to believe I would. Your response is a total non sequitor.
In addition, that appears to be about as completely unlike the animation we're discussing as animation could possibly be. If anything, that video undermines your assertion that the whirlwind animation is somehow "anime".
No need to be snarky, I was hardly being nonsensical; it was a honest question because you said there is no such thing as too far, and my video choice was to depict a over the top combat scene and ask since there was no such thing as too far, if that would be okay, anime didn't even play into it.
All caught up now?
I said there's no such thing as animation that is too far from D&D. You missed that qualifier apparently. Nearness or farness from D&D is undefinable in regards to animation because animation does not exist in D&D.
There are plenty of other reasons to like or dislike a particular animation style, and I'm not denying the validity of those reasons. I wouldn't want Neverwinter be animated like that video because I don't like that animation style. It's far too static. Which, incidentally, is the opposite of the whirlwind animation.
And I also wouldn't want it to look like that video because the art design is obviously foreign to D&D. But that has nothing to do with the whirlwind animation. The character models themselves are very consistent with modern D&D art.
Exactly look at the photos of humans with two handers here
I'm looking forward to seeing a party of all great weapon fighters spinning at the same time hahahaha :cool:
I have tried my hands on 2 handed sword(Greatsword), and yes they are long. It is longer than usual HAMSTER swords(or Claymore) you see - and they were not used a lot due to them breaking - steel at that time was not very ductile you see. To spin a greatsword is tough as it is more like it spins you. However bringing it down by holding it high is easier. some of them are thicker than shown in videos, but then they are shorter
Anyways, not to go off-topic - in the end size and all depends on the strength and purity of steel, not on whether it can be wielded or not. Stronger people can wield much heavier weapons too. In Faerun you use magic in making swords. It is not inconcievable than admantine impurities make a steel lighter and stronger + enchantments. That is something to consider.
In my D&D4e game, I have this huge fighter whom wields a greatsword. He's definitely strong, but most of his powers have to do with going from one target to the other while striking them on the way. He feels mobile, his strikes being more decisive than being this massive pounding.
I find it kind of a shame to not see anything in the way of animations like you'd see from slashing with a two-handed katana. Something with the mobile style of the trickster role, but adapted so to look just at home with races like elves, drow and 'civilized' humans... because frankly all the Great weapon fighter remainds me of is a Barbarian, not a Fighter.
[and multiple other posts with the d-word]
Daggerdale, what's Dagger....
*remembers screaming in agony*
YOU PROMISED GIL YOU PROMISED! ATARI ATARI ATARI!
*Runs off in pain slamming his head against the wall until passing out and...forgetting...something*
I've seen real life Claymores and TH swords in action. Respectfully, I had no nicer way of saying it since so many people are blinded to one thing "ruining their game" while ignoring glaring other things (like rogues teleporting or entering the shadowfel for a daily power which is even more in MMO or having wizards with a kung-fu stance as not game breaking,) some people don't know what they are talking about. The quotes are on the mark. You don't like the spin steps or length, you spend time coding EVERY step, and then as the weeks to months go by with both the work, the testing the QA and the recoding and the retesting, have people ask you why the class isn't ready to show again and again and again.
You can't have it both ways.
This is not he apocalyptic Doom of the game. heck, even the (2012) apocalypse didn't happen, so if you don''t like it, fine.
But wait until you test it before deciding your whole future, as all of this could CHANGE from the community's testing.
Or just assume you're right and your view is always the "normal" one and wonder why people keep saying the criticism isn't considered fully constructive.
So come with this with facts (and not blinder hate on the subject ignoring everything else not similar to this in regards to "exaggeration,") or continue to post and risk coming off like this.
This view does not necessarily reflect Cryptic/PWE and its associates, but does not not necessarily reflect it either.
As for the size of the two handed swords there were some big HAMSTER two handers, most of them were used against Calvary though and not as a man to man weapon.... one of the moves I liked was in the back sweep the fighter inverts his wrist and rests the blade on his shoulder which is a very realistic move....the rouge deft strike isn't actually teleporting...your looking at the abstract representation of quickly appearing behind a target, and just because a game has magic and other fantastical things shouldn't justify anything goes even at the expense of the integrity of decades of D&D.
Hercules and Xena were fantasy Television shows....that doesn't mean the fights scenes weren't cringe worthy and folks wouldn't rather watch Game Of Thrones or Lord of the rings, it's a matter of taste and many of us don't care for the mad spinning dervish, it doesn't make us haters we just think it looks incredibly stupid is all.
Spin my army of dervishes spin!!!!
Muahahahahhahahah!
You're entitled to your own aesthetic preferences, of course. The issue I take is when you portray your personal aesthetic preferences as being the one true way to represent D&D properly. I do not believe there is any basis to elevating your opinion in that way.
It clearly is teleporting. Otherwise, it would imply an utterly inhuman amount of speed. Either way, you'd need magic to justify it.
In addition, Trickster Rogues are described as teleporting in the PC Gamer article, and one of the prerendered teaser trailer videos shows a Rogue-styled character unambiguously teleporting.
I don't see what "integrity" is lost by giving martial classes bits of magic that fit with their overall theme.
If it gets us past "realism" nonsense, and into what makes for fun to play game mechanics, I'm all for it. And the whirlwind move looks like a lot of fun to play.
I'll try to look for the reference on this - I think it was the PC gamer article - that said that at level 30, when characters choose their Paragon Paths, the Great Weapon Fighter can choose a path that focuses on either attack or defense. I think the defensive one was Vanguard of Steel or something like that.
I'll look for it.
Edit: Found it. From Zeke Sparks in the PC Gamer article -
"...it's possible to pick a class specialization at level 30. The Great Weapon Fighter, for example, can either be the tank-oriented Iron Vanguard or the DPS-centric Swordmaster."
... steel, iron, adamantium, whatever :P
Cant wait too see the cleric one however, super excited at this point!
The non release of videos with a leaked class often means there is an overhaul in the said class's abilities before it's eady to be shown. I can all but guarantee you some of the powers seen already are likely still going to have this even with most dev testing done as players are allowed into testing and try things out others who make and test the game have lost an outside perspective on.
I could try and get examples, but that then means details and I'd be under NDA and couldn't share them. At best I'd be able to do a "Hunt for Red October" type of disclosure and they'd "offer" me more access but under the offer of said NDA.
So I leave the rest to the Devs and marketers to release and cannot mention anything from my sources at this time not already leaked.
... and any of these others I'll take as emotes..........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IizrGcy_R1M
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No I never said there was one true way, I'm voicing what I and many older D&D players thinks looks stupid...and that isn't going to go away. Right now we have a tiny forum community, if it grows you are going to get a flood of people saying what I'm saying. The same thing happened over at the STO forums pre-beta and it really caught cryptic off guard when the throngs of hard core Trekkies showed up. Comparatively I'm being kind about it....the Neverwinter Nights and PnP old guard won't be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8JOAWgQtDU It must be magic!!!!!!! :rolleyes: I have seen with my own eyes things you would think was impossible (someone standing beside you and vanishing and showing up several yards away ) that doesn't make it supernatural.
LOL! reading that article you can tell the person who wrote it knows jack all about Neverwinter Nights or D&D so he applied a common FPS term; I know some of the guys that worked on the third and fourth edition and they will tell you they cringe when people attach words like teleport to the trickster rogue.
It hurts just handing martial classes innate magic because they don't have it in the pen and paper game, that is like giving a two headed troll the ability cast magic missile...sure it would be fun to some folks, but it has nothing to do with D&D.
Finally, as far as the "realism nonsense" goes....a lot of well known IP's turned MMO's have tanked because they gave the finger to the veteran fans to "fun" it up, you can have fun and still respect the IP; if this game loses the support of veteran D&D players and the Neverwinter Nights community you will come back here in two years and see about as many people as you see now, which would be disastrous.
They want to make sure they get the bunny hopping defibrillator animation just right first.
I kid, I kid