morbiussMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 19Arc User
edited November 2012
Please do not be greedy in this game like in the PW and FW games? please make the game more user friendly and less driven about making money, we would like to be able to ENJOY the game and not have everything revolve around how much money we spendfor example:
1) Dont make mana and health ONLY regen via pots so we arent spending EVERY dime we make on pots constantly, that is a VERY annoying factor of the PW franchise, All other games provide a degree of mana regen and health regen that increases the higher lvl u get and makes pots OPTIONAL
2) Improve the fail rate and the overall chances of getting better quality items, for example in FW when fortifying gear it has a VERY high failure rate way higher than it should be, failure rate is fine but not to the point where i can burn 500 gems trying to improve by 1 point
3) make crafting skills a bit easier to obtain quite honestly some of them are obscenely difficult to raise and it makes the game feel overall like a total grindfest I want to be able to ENJOY the game not feel like i have to WORK from morning to night in order to improve my character and have NO time for anything else
There are many ways to monetise new classes/races that do not involve paying for the classes themselves. Class/race specific mounts, pets and costumes, that carry an extra air of exclusivity with them, thus being more likely to sell. Experience boosts to help you level up faster with the new class, especially if they have some sort of small special sale for the new class, to incentivise players to buy more. New class specific gear, that will incentivise the purchase of more upgrade boosts. The same exactr way they monetise expansions - which, by your logic, are equally pointless for them to make as new classes, yet most f2p games see expansions every few months.
Or even charging a small fee for early access, then making the class available for free a week or two down the line - that could be fine too (under circumstances).
This was Varr's point sir. They release a race/class, spend a basic amount of time, maybe even a small amount. Then they spend as much time and effort as they can making things like mounts, pets, costumes as you said. SO, now you're getting a new class that's dull but, HEY, I got it for free. OH LOOK, now I can buy a cool lookin unicorn and green cloak for my boring and shallow ranger. Gee that was money well spent.
There are games that do that kind of thing, and without actually gimping the free player. Just because there are exp boosts and inventory upgrades for sale does not mean that the exp rate and free space respectively are so low the game is unplayable - that rarely happens. There is a balance between having too little free space to play and having so much that there's no point buying more, and there is a balance between leveling at a non-visible pace and leveling so fast that any further speed would not even be noticeable. And that balance is not as hard or as rare to achieve as you seem to think it is.
A problem with this idea is if they sell inventory upgrades it can unbalance the game quickly. If they sell inventory upgrades people will be able to farm ingredients/items to an insane amount and flood the market, because they have double the room to farm with. In which case people who've spent money have just destroyed the market. It's a good idea, but EASILY overbalanced.
In f2p games, you have to essentially make your non-paying players second-class citisens, but without them actually realising that. You have to make your microtransactions seem very enticing, so that you actualy get to sell stuff, but never obligatory because that will just drive all your free players away. And free players, contrary to common believe, are not worthless leeches. They are what keeps the servers full and the world alive. Lose them and you lose all the paying members as well, because noone wants to play in a ghosttown.
If you put a fee on classes and races, then you're failing that - it's not a matter of whether you feel like paying or not anymore - you either pay or you can't play the game. That's not what free to play is.
You may be fine with that kind of business model, and that's fine, but I'm not. It doesn't matter the circumstances, but if I ever see a game that locks out content and still has the audacity to advertise itself as f2p, then I'm simply not even gonna give it a chance. I'm ok with having to buy a game and I'm ok with free to play, but individually charging for content is the worst.
That's not really true. Classes and races, (while imo should be free) are still available to people who don't want to pay. Paying for races/classes doesn't make the game a P2P game. You don't have to spend a single penny to play this game and enjoy it's services. To say a game isn't F2P because they don't give you ADDITIONAL content for free, well that's like telling the company they should be happy that they've made a game for you. It's borderline insulting. By your own logic, they shouldn't sell XP pots, inventory slots, lockboxes, or anything of the sort, because it's F2P. You should get everything for free, those things included.
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morbiussMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 19Arc User
edited November 2012
Nwsflash sir but one of the most successful F2p models out there currently is EQ2 and eq2 makes u BUY the classes unless u subscribe ad is actually doing quite nicely the ONLY reason im playing these games instead of that one is because after 7 years of playing it i need a break, but quite honestly the greed and strong desire for cash out of every little thing in these games makes it very VERY rouch to stay loyal to for any amount of extended time
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vindiconMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This was Varr's point sir. They release a race/class, spend a basic amount of time, maybe even a small amount. Then they spend as much time and effort as they can making things like mounts, pets, costumes as you said. SO, now you're getting a new class that's dull but, HEY, I got it for free. OH LOOK, now I can buy a cool lookin unicorn and green cloak for my boring and shallow ranger. Gee that was money well spent.
Mounts and costumes do not take much time to make. They are just simple reskins of existing things. You can make a dozen of them in less time than it takes just to balance a class.
To think that cosmetics actually takes too much time away from the development of core content is short-sighted. And again, if that was the case, the same would apply to expansions. But f2p games get those very often.
A problem with this idea is if they sell inventory upgrades it can unbalance the game quickly. If they sell inventory upgrades people will be able to farm ingredients/items to an insane amount and flood the market, because they have double the room to farm with. In which case people who've spent money have just destroyed the market. It's a good idea, but EASILY overbalanced.
It won't unbalance anything if they give you a decent amount of bag space for free and it won't unbalance everything if the game does not force you to carry a million non-stacking items at once. And even then, to avoid flooding the market with anything you simply put a reasonable limit to how much players can gather and craft per day, so that they don't bot the whole thing up and sell 3 years worth of pots each day.
That's not really true. Classes and races, (while imo should be free) are still available to people who don't want to pay. Paying for races/classes doesn't make the game a P2P game. You don't have to spend a single penny to play this game and enjoy it's services. To say a game isn't F2P because they don't give you ADDITIONAL content for free, well that's like telling the company they should be happy that they've made a game for you. It's borderline insulting. By your own logic, they shouldn't sell XP pots, inventory slots, lockboxes, or anything of the sort, because it's F2P. You should get everything for free, those things included.
Inventory slots, lockboxes, fashion etc are not CORE content. They are not what the game is all about, they are conveniences and flavour. It's ideal that they are also available for free - and they often ARE - but if they're not then no biggie (unless they are designed in such a way as to gimp free players too much, then we do have a problem).
NW is RPG. RPGs are about having freedom to build your own combination of race, class, skills, gear etc above all else. If you are limited in that, then there is a problem.
Nwsflash sir but one of the most successful F2p models out there currently is EQ2 and eq2 makes u BUY the classes unless u subscribe ad is actually doing quite nicely the ONLY reason im playing these games instead of that one is because after 7 years of playing it i need a break, but quite honestly the greed and strong desire for cash out of every little thing in these games makes it very VERY rouch to stay loyal to for any amount of extended time
That is not f2p. It's freemium. Or pay as you go. Whatever you want to call it. Just like DDO and LotRO.
All of these game are p2p games that were eventually given a glorified free trial. They are irrelevant whan talking about the f2p model of a game designed as f2p.
This was Varr's point sir. They release a race/class, spend a basic amount of time, maybe even a small amount. Then they spend as much time and effort as they can making things like mounts, pets, costumes as you said. SO, now you're getting a new class that's dull but, HEY, I got it for free. OH LOOK, now I can buy a cool lookin unicorn and green cloak for my boring and shallow ranger. Gee that was money well spent.
....
One thing which you failed to consider here was that, even when races are introduced as free - it has no bearing on development time or its quality. The reason a race or class is released as free to play is not because it is half-developed - but because of competition.
F2p market has saturated and development is a denominative of quality to beat that competition. Even when microtransactions may give more money to developers - their development time will still be spent on races and game mechanics to a large extent.
The reason why development time is not a representation of its value in cash shop can be read in posts:- 1, 10, 53, 86
I know it is difficult to understand the vision of cryptic unless you have been following the fate a many games which were failing but were saved by f2p model, but they have explained it very nicely in the article.
EDIT:-
p.s.
And vindicon is right. Even developers when comparing the f2p models were talking about games like LoL, korean games and PWE games like PWI when talking about f2p model and not "glorified free trail" games or "converted to f2p quickly to survive" games.
You should get everything for free, those things included.
This statement is wrong on many levels because no one has claimed it as of now. Even the articles don't say free to play means "everything should be free".
Please read the posts and articles again, free to play means freedom to pay.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
I'll say this. After seeing the re-costuming and advanced re-costuming Foundry options, it's clear new "mounts" are just re-skinning from a base model as can be races and classes even. How "unique" the "powers" they grant determines how much "new development" is actually banked for them.
Zero. Denying users content in F2P mmos is archaic. I'll pay for vanity and convenience items, the first time I'm denied content or offered a pay2win item I'll be gone.
I totally agree... denying content to me just seems like money grubbing and would make me not play. D&D is my favorite genre, but if it's going to be pay to win or pay to access... pff I won't play at all... or would soon quit from agitation from being soaked for cash. I watched on youtube the demo looks like a good game and a dev was saying NW would NOT be pay to win and said micro transactions would be for cosmetic items and convenience items only.... if that's not true I'm out....I've spent over one hundred dollars each on a few "Free to Play" games and I'm done with that... waste of money. I would rather pay $20 to buy the game and say 10 - 15 (max) a month as a subscription if the game is actually good.... being forced to pay to be competitive annoys me... greatly.
You know what sounds even better? How about Zero dollars.. Zip ... Nada... The idea that this is going to turn into a DDO scam to pay for slots and races would make me not play. Even though I've been a fan of D&D since the 70s that would be a deal breaker for me...I'd play for a bit probably... want to play another race...would feel like I was getting squeezed for cash and then I would just quit. If I spend money in a "Free to Play" game it MUST be because I want to and for some vanity item and that's it. Nothing else ought to be available for micro transactions. Is their guild housing? Is there personal housing? Maybe charging people for upgrades to those or for super special vanity guild items would be nice.... or visual effects on certain pieces of armor? or a different looking mount if there are any mounts even... etc if the game is that good. Another idea how about $5.00 for 30 days of being able to teleport to key places in town ONLY to key places, guild house, housing, bank, crafting area, etc.. If town is that big as it is in some games it gets to be a pain to run all over constantly.....which is fine but that's the sort of convenience items that ought to be sold imo...and will keep things fair for all players.... no REAL advantage that way in the game....
I hope the game is not balanced at all....this is supposed to be a D&D game not some pvp my guy is tougher than your guy smackdown... racial traits are important in D&D and should have distinct advantages for each. That being said the idea of charging people to unlock races is an annoying concept....
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Cryptic have always provided a lot more than 2 charcater slots from the start so you won't have to owrry about that particular issue in all likelihood.
Actually STO's F2P version only allows for 2 free slots. Anything else has to be paid for.
Well, this game was a hybrid sub to F2P and used to offer many more slots with the sub and still does if you "go gold." How many slots the F2P from the start NWO will is uncertain, but personally I'm hoping WAY more than two!
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2012
If any visual appeal had to be purchased then we'd all walk around looking ugly in order to promote sales.
If normal armor looked good why would we buy visual upgrades?
I'd rather see a mixture of purchasable content...for content I *want* rather than lock box deals.
Another thing to note is balance isn't about PvP. Balance has to be considered in games as simple as pong. If the game isn't balanced it's not fun...if one class is completely overpowered the rest of the classes will suffer. This is paramount even if PvP wasn't introduced to the game.
I can't see any issue with being given 10 races or so for free and having to pay for some rarer ones like dragonborn. The wonderous thing about D&D is it is one of the better balanced games in the world and I can't say one race is god-like compared to another. Certainly some races aid certain classes more intimately but no matter how powerful some of the more odd-ball races are there will never be a complete replacement for the core races.
You don't NEED every race in order to play. You don't NEED every class to play. You don't NEED a lot of things to fully enjoy the game and thusly it would still be, in every definition, free to play.
DDO isn't free to play. I can't enjoy the game without buying a subscription, quests or various other content to allow you to advance through the game. Neverwinter will absolutely allow you to make hundreds of different characters from level 1-60 without the need to buy playable content (other than character slots perhaps) so I can't fathom any reason people should be against paying for a non-core race, content we would like but don't need, in order to fund the game's continuation.
I guess I just come from a different background. I hate marketing schemes and will pay to make sure we don't see them.
P.S. What game's free to play? Baldur's Gate? No I definitely paid 30-40 dollars for the game when it came out. Neverwinter Nights? That one was 50-60. Their expansions? No each of those was 30+.
This is nothing new...new content costs money. I can't fathom why titling a game as free to play has been scewed into all content should be free.
It honestly sounds like you guys want freemium. All content is free...but in order for any hope to play long term you have to pay.
That's the only way we can have all content free and I won't be able to play the game if I feel like I *have* to pay for the experience boosts and health potions. I have no issue paying for a race I want but I have no desire to ever pay for consumables, ever.
Oh? So what are you trying to tell me that in 4th edition there are no racial modifiers? You think no race in 4e has any advantage depending on the situation? LOL Oh and if being a particular race is of no consequence to you I would question why the hell you would even want to play a D&D game tbh
Oh? So what are you trying to tell me that in 4th edition there are no racial modifiers? You think no race in 4e has any advantage depending on the situation? LOL Oh and if being a particular race is of no consequence to you I would question why the hell you would even want to play a D&D game tbh
Since when does "balanced" mean that?
In 4e the races have overlapping modifiers and given any class there are several "gold" races and even more "silver" races. But because of the way the system is designed almost any race can do a serviceable job of any class.
So much for the criticality of attribute scores.
Next in line is racial powers. Honestly they can be useful... But they also aren't critical. Again, the system design is so that almost any race can do a serviceable job at any class.
Finally racial feats. Some of these are great for some classes. And some aren't. Once again, the system is designed so that any race... blah blah blah.
The difference between an apex charop race for given class X is less than you might imagine in 4e. That's because the system was designed from the ground up to be a more level playing field. Yes, heavy charop will always incorporate racial choice, just as it will incorporate feat and class choices. But it's not crucial. And choosing a a "silver" race for a given class isn't an issue.
I'll recant slightly tho - I'll look to buy a race if there's no subscription option and I can't find anything more mechanically meaningful to spend my month's game-money on. But it's right down there for me, just above aesthetics. But that's just me.
From what we've been told there will be no subscription options. I tend to prefer them myself, but we'll see what ends up happening.
*sigh* I know. More's the pity. I'll still budget the same for it tho. It'll be more inconvenient that way, but there we have it. Maybe. Hopefully there will end up being a subscription model, but... Whatever, I guess.
If any visual appeal had to be purchased then we'd all walk around looking ugly in order to promote sales.
If normal armor looked good why would we buy visual upgrades?
I'd rather see a mixture of purchasable content...for content I *want* rather than lock box deals.
Another thing to note is balance isn't about PvP. Balance has to be considered in games as simple as pong. If the game isn't balanced it's not fun...if one class is completely overpowered the rest of the classes will suffer. This is paramount even if PvP wasn't introduced to the game.
I can't see any issue with being given 10 races or so for free and having to pay for some rarer ones like dragonborn. The wonderous thing about D&D is it is one of the better balanced games in the world and I can't say one race is god-like compared to another. Certainly some races aid certain classes more intimately but no matter how powerful some of the more odd-ball races are there will never be a complete replacement for the core races.
You don't NEED every race in order to play. You don't NEED every class to play. You don't NEED a lot of things to fully enjoy the game and thusly it would still be, in every definition, free to play.
DDO isn't free to play. I can't enjoy the game without buying a subscription, quests or various other content to allow you to advance through the game. Neverwinter will absolutely allow you to make hundreds of different characters from level 1-60 without the need to buy playable content (other than character slots perhaps) so I can't fathom any reason people should be against paying for a non-core race, content we would like but don't need, in order to fund the game's continuation.
I guess I just come from a different background. I hate marketing schemes and will pay to make sure we don't see them.
P.S. What game's free to play? Baldur's Gate? No I definitely paid 30-40 dollars for the game when it came out. Neverwinter Nights? That one was 50-60. Their expansions? No each of those was 30+.
This is nothing new...new content costs money. I can't fathom why titling a game as free to play has been scewed into all content should be free.
It honestly sounds like you guys want freemium. All content is free...but in order for any hope to play long term you have to pay.
That's the only way we can have all content free and I won't be able to play the game if I feel like I *have* to pay for the experience boosts and health potions. I have no issue paying for a race I want but I have no desire to ever pay for consumables, ever.
Yeah I agree with a lot of what you say but the idea in gaming of "balance" is subjective. If a bunch of people who cannot play the game simply because they suck complain enough on the forums.... well we have all seen that happen...I played DDO when it first came out... was a good game and got initially wrecked by attempts to "balance." I don't know how it is now and I could care less tbh. But yeah monks solo clearing dungeons as the rest of the group sat and watched was pretty absurd...great balance. If someone is a great player and is able to play the class in a damn near perfect way they are what....yep O.P. right? Tell me you haven't seen that.... this whole discussion goes back to making vanilla games which in the end... always end up sucking.
You say it has nothing to do with PVP? Well I disagree. Obviously any dimwit would not want to see everyone equipped with "The Flyswatter of Flimsy" to kill mobs with while on class got the "Nuclear Demon-sword of Destruction." Uh yeah ok I think everyone gets that........ Does the type of balance these forum swarmers talk about have anything to do with that? Hell no. It's about making sure that their favorite melee class can't get frozen to the ground and two hit by a fellow player in pvp games.... now in non-pvp games it's about them being able to do anything they want and survive anything any other class can survive.... yeah VANILLA classes.....ok they all have different skills but none of them in the end have anything that differentiates their role~! wait....isn't D&D all about ROLE PLAYING?
On another note I can speak for myself...I'm not looking for a ...what did you call it..."freemium." I would rather this be a subscription game personally. You don't think people would pay for vanity items? Well you are wrong....they do it in every game that offers them....in fact a lot of females love that frilly HAMSTER you can buy and get entire wardrobes that do NOTHING but change the way they look. I would pay $5 - maybe even $10 a month just to get an in town speed boost or teleportation rune or something for convenience and if it's a good game I would do it even if I didn't need to just to support the game. Why would I be against paying for non-core races? I guess in the end I get sick of money grubbers for one... In the end the way some game companies operate...you end up paying triple if not more for what it would have cost you for a subscription based game. I mean after you HAMSTER about and accuse people of wanting a "freemium" your next line reads, "I guess I just come from a different background. I hate marketing schemes and will pay to make sure we don't see them."
Really? What do you think paying for non-core races would be? Just the opposite of a "freemium?" hehe Do a little research man vanity items and items that don't give on the field advantage to people are the way to go. Yeah I'm pretty passionate about it and really believe if you are going to make a "free to play" game it ought to put out all content FREE and make money from vanity items and etc that don't affect the mechanics of the game play battles. I will even give you this much how about $5-10 for a full unlock of all races right off the bat then? I'd be fine with that personally but you just know it's going to end up as some marketing scam where you end up paying 50 - 75 dollars minimum JUST to unlock races AND to unlock slots you would need to have the ability to create them all. In any game I play every single class if I can't.... I won't play....I get bored.
I'm sure the hell not going to pay for races, slots, pots, faster mounts, special armor with stats, special weapons, exp boosts, guild boosts....oh they going to sell gold too? Special gems, socketing scrolls that guarantee success.....been there done that... spent my hundreds of dollars...had fun....don't play the games anymore once I realized what an idiot I was for feeding the greed. Vanity and other non-game changing items? That's fine I would be willing to purchase some if I have an extra 5 - 10 bucks but that's my limit on ANY FTP game per month to support them. Need more money than that? Go with a LOW subscription rate say $5 - $10 a month and STILL offer vanity items for sale! Rake it in!! But you can't call it FTP when you withhold content.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2012
Balance is required for all games regardless of PvP. That is all I said, nothing more and nothing less. Monks in third edition were indeed rediculously overpowered, hence why they have been toned down exponentially in fourth edition. They are no longer gods.
In any case that type of issue should be fixed, not permitted to remain,as you imply. If you don't like games with balance I wish you the best of luck finding a game to play.
You tell me to do research yet have seemingly never come across the term Freemium. Let's not call the kettle black then.
People do buy vanity items and I hope the major amount of sellable items will be vanity items but that is doesn't mean players should expect every single thing to be free. Games like League of Legends can and do support themselves purely on vanity items but I don't expect we'll be able to see the same from NW. Classes and races take far more time to develop in a game like NW than retextures in other games.
Cryptic should give us a large selection of free races and classes...but honestly the time it takes to create each one is beyond daunting. If there's anything that they deserve money for, it's the creation of classes and races. It won't support the game alone but it will at least give them reason to keep producing them on a decent time frame...something you don't find coming from DDO.
"I'm sure the hell not going to pay for races, slots, pots, faster mounts, special armor with stats, special weapons, exp boosts, guild boosts....oh they going to sell gold too?"
The only game which runs on mainly on vanity items at this moment is League of Legends. Any other game sells everything else you're stating, requires a subscription or has a $60 purchasing fee. I want a NW to free to play game like League of Legends but there's a realistic point of view to be taken.
Stuff costs money to develop. If it doesn't make them money they won't develop it.
Now we should also consider the fact we will be receiving Astral Diamonds for playing the game, store credit in other words.
You don't *have* to buy races or classes. You could use Astral Diamonds to buy classes/races exactly as they do in League of Legends.
But under no circumstances should all of you expect to play this game and not be nudged to buy items in some way. We won't be seeing the rediculous pay to play that freemium content provides but I think we should all expect that there will be content we want to be released which will have to be paid for in one way or another and not all of it will be costume items.
You won't have to pay to enjoy the game or advance in the game. They promised that.
But free to play doesn't mean free by any means.
But under no circumstances should all of you expect to play this game and not be nudged to buy items in some way. We won't be seeing the rediculous pay to play that freemium content provides but I think we should all expect that there will be content we want to be released which will have to be paid for in one way or another and not all of it will be costume items.
You won't have to pay to enjoy the game or advance in the game. They promised that.
But free to play doesn't mean free by any means.
I think this sort of gets to the heart of the matter. One of the reasons I think discussions like this (or should classes be purchasable) is because it helps the Developers understand what content is important to us. Yes I love a great costume and I'll probably willing pay more for the "right" costume than most, but once I have the look I want I'm not likely to spend much more money on that characters looks. On the other hand I'm an altaholic and I love new and different races and classes. I'd love to play a Satyr, in fact if you're reading PWE/Cryptic people I'll pay $60 just to be able to play a Satyr cunning Bard or a Gnoll Rageblood Barbarian.
That's something that i would like to see discussed before beta. One of the big problems is that Cryptic has a tendency to ignore feed back (not entirely but a good amount) in favor of the quick buck, which i greatly disagree with, Unless there is a huge outcry, Cryptic will not listen. This Early on is the perfect time to get that ball rolling by having the community manager passing along the hot topics and suggestions from the forums. They should be tossing up opinion polls and asking questions about what people want to see in game as well as the shop and prices they think are acceptable. For me, most of Cryptics prices are too high for how little you get out of them, and this being the first F2P at launch game they have an opportunity to revamp their business model to show that they can make money with out gouging the players for every little thing.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That's something that i would like to see discussed before beta. One of the big problems is that Cryptic has a tendency to ignore feed back (not entirely but a good amount) in favor of the quick buck, which i greatly disagree with, Unless there is a huge outcry, Cryptic will not listen. This Early on is the perfect time to get that ball rolling by having the community manager passing along the hot topics and suggestions from the forums. They should be tossing up opinion polls and asking questions about what people want to see in game as well as the shop and prices they think are acceptable. For me, most of Cryptics prices are too high for how little you get out of them, and this being the first F2P at launch game they have an opportunity to revamp their business model to show that they can make money with out gouging the players for every little thing.
While I'm pretty open with what we don't know and try not to be secret on other thngs, this is one of those grey area times where I can say this:
Feedback is studied and listed to and internally tested and feedback on that from those testers refines their stuff more until they are done with one more feature they don't have to worry about for Beta.
Balance is required for all games regardless of PvP. That is all I said, nothing more and nothing less. Monks in third edition were indeed rediculously overpowered, hence why they have been toned down exponentially in fourth edition. They are no longer gods.
In any case that type of issue should be fixed, not permitted to remain,as you imply. If you don't like games with balance I wish you the best of luck finding a game to play.
You tell me to do research yet have seemingly never come across the term Freemium. Let's not call the kettle black then.
People do buy vanity items and I hope the major amount of sellable items will be vanity items but that is doesn't mean players should expect every single thing to be free. Games like League of Legends can and do support themselves purely on vanity items but I don't expect we'll be able to see the same from NW. Classes and races take far more time to develop in a game like NW than retextures in other games.
Cryptic should give us a large selection of free races and classes...but honestly the time it takes to create each one is beyond daunting. If there's anything that they deserve money for, it's the creation of classes and races. It won't support the game alone but it will at least give them reason to keep producing them on a decent time frame...something you don't find coming from DDO.
"I'm sure the hell not going to pay for races, slots, pots, faster mounts, special armor with stats, special weapons, exp boosts, guild boosts....oh they going to sell gold too?"
The only game which runs on mainly on vanity items at this moment is League of Legends. Any other game sells everything else you're stating, requires a subscription or has a $60 purchasing fee. I want a NW to free to play game like League of Legends but there's a realistic point of view to be taken.
Stuff costs money to develop. If it doesn't make them money they won't develop it.
Now we should also consider the fact we will be receiving Astral Diamonds for playing the game, store credit in other words.
You don't *have* to buy races or classes. You could use Astral Diamonds to buy classes/races exactly as they do in League of Legends.
But under no circumstances should all of you expect to play this game and not be nudged to buy items in some way. We won't be seeing the rediculous pay to play that freemium content provides but I think we should all expect that there will be content we want to be released which will have to be paid for in one way or another and not all of it will be costume items.
You won't have to pay to enjoy the game or advance in the game. They promised that.
But free to play doesn't mean free by any means.
All I can say really is pff... with a few responses...
1. I told you to do your research....u mad bro? "Freemium" is a mixture of the two words "Free" and "Premium." Yeah I know this word well. I guess what confused me is that you don't seem to understand it. THIS game if you have to pay for ANY content would qualify as that... it's exactly the opposite of the way you describe it unless the definition has changed.... which I doubt. You get some things free and for the full boat or extra features... you PAY. Yeah so...k that is what a "freemium" has always been otherwise it would just be called "free" right? or hell how about "free to play" now there is a definition that's odd...maybe should be called "Free to Play the Crippled Version".... or um PTW? ...crazy kids and your newfangled sayings....heh
2. Unless they changed the way League of Legends operates.... you are wrong again. You can buy characters and runes and cosmetics. As far as I know always could... haven't played in about 4 months did that change? Doubt it.
3. You said something useful thanks! Now I did not know about astral diamonds... this would solve my personal issue with getting soaked for cash to play the full game. I actually think that's fair as long as it is reasonable and not one of those things that is nearly impossible to achieve (again I get annoyed by pesky marketing ploys.) If it takes me a few weeks or a month to unlock something; I'm fine with that and I think most people would be too...the ones that don't want their pocketbook drained.
4. "Free to play doesn't mean free by any means"? Wow....ok.... wrong again. You can play this game for FREE you are charged nothing upfront and there are no requirements to pay in the future. Free to Play DOES mean free to play....it's just deceptive wording... Essentially what I think you are trying to say is (and I might agree) that Free to play games generally speaking suck; unless you shell out some hard cash.... now that could be a true statement.
5. DDO was a great game on release. If you played the game from launch or otherwise you would know what ruined the game...idiotic devs. Plain and simple.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
5. DDO was a great game on release. If you played the game from launch or otherwise you would know what ruined the game...idiotic devs. Plain and simple.
Oh NO WAY was it a "great game on release!" it was a barren wasteland that screamed for more content and ANY kind of extras.
There was a reason I didn't stick around for its upcoming launch and waited many a month before "joining" DDO when I knew of it since pre-beta. If you thought Atari did Conan or STO badly...
Of course, we gloss over what we forgot we hated with nostalgia. I remember the same HAMSTER with EQ/UO/AO/GW, etc. But for the sake of discussion, let's base this on DDO only.
Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach, on the other hand, is little more than an anemic group dungeon crawler. In spite of its name, it’s not very D & D, and it’s even less an MMORPG. The only thing massive is its cost – fifty dollars and a fifteen dollar a month fee – yet it offers less content than Guild Wars, which costs forty dollars flat. Like that game, Stormreach is really just a series of lobbies where players meet up to run instanced dungeons. While running through Stormreach’s massive and intricate dungeons with a group of players can be a lot of fun, it offers no other content while asking for a lot of your money.
Oh look less content than what, Guild Wars. Whadda you know? Still one of my favorite quotes though is this one next,
The backstory is practically non-existent. The city of Stormreach is a wealthy city with a serious monster infestation, thanks to some incompetent city planner who put dungeons in everyone’s basement. While the surface is full of grandiosity, magical machines and gentle townsfolk, those dungeons, underground passages, and catacombs swarm with skeletons, zombies, giant spiders, floating eyes, and other RPG nasties. Naturally, such creatures are always surrounded by magical artifacts and priceless jewels, and those are precisely what you’re after.
remembering the non-content:
From one window, you can see a party’s relevant info, such as their class composition and level, and apply for that group directly. It functions much like City of Heroes, and it’s a good system, except that there's nothing to do in Stormreach while you wait.
There's also the question of the game's shelf-life as a whole. There are 10 levels to progress through in D&D Online, and we're not exaggerating when we say that a significant portion of the playerbase has already reached the cap. Also, as of press time, the game's premier high-level dungeon (Tempest Spine) has only recently come back online, after about a week's worth of downtime. This has left many a player with no other option than to start a new character, and advance through the game all over again. Turbine is promising a new "module" replete with missions, dungeons, and treasure come April, which just might save it from a legion of cancellations, as well as incremental increases to the level cap reportedly in the works.
So... is D&D Online worth playing? If you're a hardcore D&D player, you'll certainly appreciate much of what it has to offer. If you're looking for some well-designed, challenging PvE content, you'll also find a lot to interest you here. It bears mention, though, that the game has no PvP content to speak of, and when you take into account the fact that there's a monthly charge for playing the game, well... it becomes a little bit harder to justify playing it at this juncture. It also bears mention that some pretty annoying technical problems have manifested since we posted our initial Out of the Box impressions of the game. Granted, things are a whole lot better on this front than they were about a week ago, but when these problems rear their heads, gameplay experiences go south very, very quickly. A good chunk of the GameSpy editorial team has been playing since launch, and so, for this review, we're getting a group opinion.
This one fared better only 3/5 not lower. As said, "Well, they got the "dungeons" part right..."
The Content Race
Turbine has already released one new module for DDO, and I would guess that there is enough here to keep casual players busy for months. Gamers that put in several hours or more every day, however, cover all the ground in the game pretty quickly and tend to run out of things to do. To be fair, hardcore gamers are probably impossible to satisfy in this regard.
Part of the problem is that PvP, crafting, and a player-based economy can extend the life of a game tremendously. DDO has none of these things, so when you hit level 10 with a couple different character classes you don't have much alternative but to wait for the next module to come along. Turbine has a monumental task ahead of them addressing bugs and adding more dungeon crawls to the game quickly enough to keep their player base paying. Bottom Line
Oddly enough, DDO suffers from being a little too much like its PnP counterpart. Traditional D&D was always best among a group of close friends with a similar play schedule, and the same holds true for DDO. With the right group on the right quest it's an exceptional experience near the top of its class. The rest of the time, not so much. It also inadvertently takes the massive out of massively multiplayer. A few years ago this game might have blown everyone away, but given the monthly payment plan and aggressive competition from other online RPGs, the appeal of DDO is bound to be rather limited. On the other hand, if you're disenchanted with the current market leaders in this genre, then DDO certainly deserves your consideration.
Burdened with monthly subscription fees, games such as D&D Online are naturally held to a higher standard when it comes to the breadth and sheer volume of their content. On those fronts, this game might not necessarily have what it takes to keep you glued over the long haul, especially when a similar game like Guild Wars offers at least as much if not more content, without asking you for your credit card number in exchange. Here, you don't have tons of leveling up to look forward to, and there isn't some elaborate competitive player-versus-player element to keep you busy once you max out your character. But there's more than enough good content to keep the typical D&D fan intrigued and entertained for around those first 30 days you get free with the purchase of the retail box. Beyond that, it's going to depend on how quickly you've consumed the content and what types of friends you've got in the game. Having cut their teeth on the Asheron's Call series, D&D Online's experienced developers intend to continue supplementing their game with add-on "modules" that introduce new quests, rewards, and challenges. This dedicated focus on the questing and adventure portions of the game ultimately makes sense and should help keep the quality of D&D Online's content a cut above the traditional online RPG. But in exchange, D&D Online doesn't deliver the broad scope and wide variety of features you could find in other similar games.
So please know the game stunk on content at release. I'd list more reviews then, but many 2006 reviews are not easily found still online; but they all echoed what the players said who were far from "casual players," that they had nothing to do after a month.
Sure it improved in some areas, but never really upped it's core class completion until years later (and don't get me started on rangers and ranged combat) and STILL has lag problems six years and coming up to nine months later. Hardly a "great on release" game, but just like every "stinker" game on release that was called epic years later.
So please know the game stunk on content at release. I'd list more reviews then, but many 2006 reviews are not easily found still online; but they all echoed what the players said who were far from "casual players," that they had nothing to do after a month.
Sure it improved in some areas, but never really upped it's core class completion until years later (and don't get me started on rangers and ranged combat) and STILL has lag problems six years and coming up to nine months later. Hardly a "great on release" game, but just like every "stinker" game on release that was called epic years later.
Your memory may vary.
Alright, yeah there was a content issue and admittedly that is why we left the game in the end because we ran instances and raids until we couldn't stand it anymore....then they came out with this new pumped up raid no guild could beat... why? Well the finally figured out after a month or two...lol...it was bugged. The NPC dialogue was screwed yeah rangers were screwed for quite a bit...the initial concept was good and they did follow the rules as well as I expect they could....everyone had some complaints but it quickly went downhill due to what I figure was just plain old incompetence on the dev side... those articles? I wouldn't agree at least for me and my guild we had a good time for a few months...the skill changes etc... really ruined the game imo. Could just be me though I met a lot of good people in that game and we played other games as a small guild for years after that...one of the guys that started the DDO guild with me actually went back last year.... guild was still running and he STILL plays it today! I think he is insane...talked me into trying it out last year again and now.... it just sucks. I don't think $15 a month is unreasonable for a game at least at the time I'd put in way over 8 hours a day playing... more like 12++ hehe
Seriously do you remember the text from the npcs that was totally screwed up? Used to crack us up big-time....
I think this part of About.com's review is probably pretty fair or at least how I felt about it.
"Bottom Line
Oddly enough, DDO suffers from being a little too much like its PnP counterpart. Traditional D&D was always best among a group of close friends with a similar play schedule, and the same holds true for DDO. With the right group on the right quest it's an exceptional experience near the top of its class. The rest of the time, not so much."
It was for sure never a game you would find soloing enjoyable at least not for long. I did in fact have a tight small guild and we all played tons of hours at the same time...raiding just about everyday...Only thing I really hated about the game was the co-leader busting my balls about having a sissy looking DE Paladin haha... not sure what would have been better at the time... eq2 sucked... couldn't play eq 1 anymore.... like I said $15 a month for as much as I played didn't bother me one bit. It's a shame they ruined the game... I mentioned monks but seriously think they had some monk/wiz or /sorc build that would just gather up and clear the entire dungeon... so what did they do? They added a trigger that if there were to many mobs on you would get burdened and just clobbered... crappy dev team .. talk about wrecking immersion...a lot of absurd things happened to that game.... lack of content after people capped...we just started new characters I think and kept going till they released new content... then waiting on more content...couldn't take that anymore.
Bah, I stick with it... not a bad game at start imo... WOW was much worse I thought....much worse...
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
Ironically I left DDO due to drama issues and missed the game changing effects that F2p did to it. Little did I know I left just in time for I would have ragequit over the "force to buy a subscription anyway freemium" end that it eventually became. And dagnabbit, why are the graphics still at that level yet the lag is not better when my computer is?
But to those who enjoy it and don't mind the OP result to monks but the nerf to ranger bows etc, more power to you!
Ironically I left DDO due to drama issues and missed the game changing ...
Yeah, no one can deny that after launch only players who were playing it were hardcore D&D players. It was barren and to do an unpopular adventure meant a lot of waiting for party to fill. Whenever new content was released (like never...) people use to run it for months crazily before becoming completely familiar with that area.
The only reason many players did stick was that they "faithfully implemented 3.5e in MMO" which in turn had its own problems. 3.5e when faithfully implemented in MMO is sure to bring Sir Maximus Minimus into picture. A lot of patches were used to fight Sir Maximus Minimus. It was basically a caster's game. AC was broken, melee dps was way way lesser than dps by spells, lag problems, aiming was not proper etc etc etc. So many problems but the game survived because it was the only D&D MMO.
Later on they had a shift in their brilliant policy and concentrated not on pnp D&D players but MMO players. It happened around when they went f2p. I remember many old players being a bit critical of this step, but even us had realized one important truth - Simply that there are too few pnp D&D hardcore fans to have a viable MMO. That is the reason turbine was able to get a lot of support from people when they went f2p, and they earned a lot of respect of community by saving the sinking ship.
However, same is the reason for hostility now. They didn't stop at saving the sinking ship. They went all the way with this shift. This is simply because it was the profitable thing to do. That being the reason the old players kept on leaving the game one by one.
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alsarothMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
I'd rather subscribe and get everything than have Free-to-play and have to pay for any upgrades (new races,classes etc.). It'd save me some clicks...
"A rare display of intelligence, undoubtedly fleeting." - Edwin Odesseiron
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2012
Free and Free to play are entirely different. This game isn't free, it's free to play.
This is my experience with DDO: I log in and do all the missions on the first island. There are absolutely no stumbling blocks and I enjoyed every minute of it without paying for a single thing. I moved on to the second spawning location and although I found several quests right off the docks to do I ended up running out of new quests to play within a day after my arival. Since I was having so much fun I bought a few more quests and a couple of ingedient bags. After a few days of grinding I realized that if I wanted to do anything that wasn't redundant or slow I would have to pay for a subscription or spend a ton of cash on quests to play. It became more and more of a chore to play so I played the game for less than a month before becoming completely disenchanted.
That is Freemium. You can play but you won't in any way advance or at least not in an enjoyable/efficient way without paying for content.
Neverwinter will allow you to play all the Cryptic and all the UGC quests free of charge. You will have access to at least five different classes and races for free, including some that DDO charge for. While we do know XP Boosts will likely exist they shouldn't inhibit player's too much and also exist in DDO.
This is a free to play game. You can make 3,125 different class/race combos confirmed before the release for absolutely free. You will be able to feasibly reach level 60 in every account free of charge, something we all know isn't at all a reality in DDO.
I don't see any issue with having to pay for a few race or class options which are not core races. List of D&D Races.
I'd love to see most of the 4th edition (or earlier edition) races added to this game, but by no means do I think we should be given every single one free of charge...especially for something more unique like Genasi.
9/10 Free Core races and a few free non-core races is more than enough to be free to play. You don't need every race to enjoy a game...and nor would I say most races are that much better than others to the point it could be considered an unfair advantage (and those that are like Illithids I don't believe should be added)
This is my experience with DDO: I log in and do all the missions on the first island. There are absolutely no stumbling blocks and I enjoyed every minute of it without paying for a single thing. I moved on to the second spawning location and although I found several quests right off the docks to do I ended up running out of new quests to play within a day after my arival. Since I was having so much fun I bought a few more quests and a couple of ingedient bags. After a few days of grinding I realized that if I wanted to do anything that wasn't redundant or slow I would have to pay for a subscription or spend a ton of cash on quests to play. It became more and more of a chore to play so I played the game for less than a month before becoming completely disenchanted.
That is Freemium. You can play but you won't in any way advance or at least not in an enjoyable/efficient way without paying for content.
Neverwinter will allow you to play all the Cryptic and all the UGC quests free of charge. You will have access to at least five different classes and races for free, including some that DDO charge for. While we do know XP Boosts will likely exist they shouldn't inhibit player's too much and also exist in DDO.
This is a free to play game. You can make 3,125 different class/race combos confirmed before the release for absolutely free. You will be able to feasibly reach level 60 in every account free of charge, something we all know isn't at all a reality in DDO.
I don't see any issue with having to pay for a few race or class options which are not core races. List of D&D Races.
I'd love to see most of the 4th edition (or earlier edition) races added to this game, but by no means do I think we should be given every single one free of charge...especially for something more unique like Genasi.
9/10 Free Core races and a few free non-core races is more than enough to be free to play. You don't need every race to enjoy a game...and nor would I say most races are that much better than others to the point it could be considered an unfair advantage (and those that are like Illithids I don't believe should be added)
While I agree with the sentiment of it's not a big deal if we have to pay for a few races I think your taking things out of proportion with DDO.
There are plenty of quest as f2p to reach 12, you CAN reach 20 too but it's much much easier if you buy a couple strategic quest packs. You are also leaving out how people can earn TP (the cash shop currency) just doing some favor grinding.
Point is both games will make you want to spend, just in a different way.
Comments
1) Dont make mana and health ONLY regen via pots so we arent spending EVERY dime we make on pots constantly, that is a VERY annoying factor of the PW franchise, All other games provide a degree of mana regen and health regen that increases the higher lvl u get and makes pots OPTIONAL
2) Improve the fail rate and the overall chances of getting better quality items, for example in FW when fortifying gear it has a VERY high failure rate way higher than it should be, failure rate is fine but not to the point where i can burn 500 gems trying to improve by 1 point
3) make crafting skills a bit easier to obtain quite honestly some of them are obscenely difficult to raise and it makes the game feel overall like a total grindfest I want to be able to ENJOY the game not feel like i have to WORK from morning to night in order to improve my character and have NO time for anything else
This was Varr's point sir. They release a race/class, spend a basic amount of time, maybe even a small amount. Then they spend as much time and effort as they can making things like mounts, pets, costumes as you said. SO, now you're getting a new class that's dull but, HEY, I got it for free. OH LOOK, now I can buy a cool lookin unicorn and green cloak for my boring and shallow ranger. Gee that was money well spent.
A problem with this idea is if they sell inventory upgrades it can unbalance the game quickly. If they sell inventory upgrades people will be able to farm ingredients/items to an insane amount and flood the market, because they have double the room to farm with. In which case people who've spent money have just destroyed the market. It's a good idea, but EASILY overbalanced.
That's not really true. Classes and races, (while imo should be free) are still available to people who don't want to pay. Paying for races/classes doesn't make the game a P2P game. You don't have to spend a single penny to play this game and enjoy it's services. To say a game isn't F2P because they don't give you ADDITIONAL content for free, well that's like telling the company they should be happy that they've made a game for you. It's borderline insulting. By your own logic, they shouldn't sell XP pots, inventory slots, lockboxes, or anything of the sort, because it's F2P. You should get everything for free, those things included.
Mounts and costumes do not take much time to make. They are just simple reskins of existing things. You can make a dozen of them in less time than it takes just to balance a class.
To think that cosmetics actually takes too much time away from the development of core content is short-sighted. And again, if that was the case, the same would apply to expansions. But f2p games get those very often.
It won't unbalance anything if they give you a decent amount of bag space for free and it won't unbalance everything if the game does not force you to carry a million non-stacking items at once. And even then, to avoid flooding the market with anything you simply put a reasonable limit to how much players can gather and craft per day, so that they don't bot the whole thing up and sell 3 years worth of pots each day.
Inventory slots, lockboxes, fashion etc are not CORE content. They are not what the game is all about, they are conveniences and flavour. It's ideal that they are also available for free - and they often ARE - but if they're not then no biggie (unless they are designed in such a way as to gimp free players too much, then we do have a problem).
NW is RPG. RPGs are about having freedom to build your own combination of race, class, skills, gear etc above all else. If you are limited in that, then there is a problem.
That is not f2p. It's freemium. Or pay as you go. Whatever you want to call it. Just like DDO and LotRO.
All of these game are p2p games that were eventually given a glorified free trial. They are irrelevant whan talking about the f2p model of a game designed as f2p.
One thing which you failed to consider here was that, even when races are introduced as free - it has no bearing on development time or its quality. The reason a race or class is released as free to play is not because it is half-developed - but because of competition.
F2p market has saturated and development is a denominative of quality to beat that competition. Even when microtransactions may give more money to developers - their development time will still be spent on races and game mechanics to a large extent.
The reason why development time is not a representation of its value in cash shop can be read in posts:- 1, 10, 53, 86
I know it is difficult to understand the vision of cryptic unless you have been following the fate a many games which were failing but were saved by f2p model, but they have explained it very nicely in the article.
EDIT:-
p.s.
And vindicon is right. Even developers when comparing the f2p models were talking about games like LoL, korean games and PWE games like PWI when talking about f2p model and not "glorified free trail" games or "converted to f2p quickly to survive" games.
This statement is wrong on many levels because no one has claimed it as of now. Even the articles don't say free to play means "everything should be free".
Please read the posts and articles again, free to play means freedom to pay.
My work: Heroes Blacksmith - Library
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?21051-Heroes-Blacksmith-Library
I totally agree... denying content to me just seems like money grubbing and would make me not play. D&D is my favorite genre, but if it's going to be pay to win or pay to access... pff I won't play at all... or would soon quit from agitation from being soaked for cash. I watched on youtube the demo looks like a good game and a dev was saying NW would NOT be pay to win and said micro transactions would be for cosmetic items and convenience items only.... if that's not true I'm out....I've spent over one hundred dollars each on a few "Free to Play" games and I'm done with that... waste of money. I would rather pay $20 to buy the game and say 10 - 15 (max) a month as a subscription if the game is actually good.... being forced to pay to be competitive annoys me... greatly.
Well, this game was a hybrid sub to F2P and used to offer many more slots with the sub and still does if you "go gold." How many slots the F2P from the start NWO will is uncertain, but personally I'm hoping WAY more than two!
If normal armor looked good why would we buy visual upgrades?
I'd rather see a mixture of purchasable content...for content I *want* rather than lock box deals.
Another thing to note is balance isn't about PvP. Balance has to be considered in games as simple as pong. If the game isn't balanced it's not fun...if one class is completely overpowered the rest of the classes will suffer. This is paramount even if PvP wasn't introduced to the game.
I can't see any issue with being given 10 races or so for free and having to pay for some rarer ones like dragonborn. The wonderous thing about D&D is it is one of the better balanced games in the world and I can't say one race is god-like compared to another. Certainly some races aid certain classes more intimately but no matter how powerful some of the more odd-ball races are there will never be a complete replacement for the core races.
You don't NEED every race in order to play. You don't NEED every class to play. You don't NEED a lot of things to fully enjoy the game and thusly it would still be, in every definition, free to play.
DDO isn't free to play. I can't enjoy the game without buying a subscription, quests or various other content to allow you to advance through the game. Neverwinter will absolutely allow you to make hundreds of different characters from level 1-60 without the need to buy playable content (other than character slots perhaps) so I can't fathom any reason people should be against paying for a non-core race, content we would like but don't need, in order to fund the game's continuation.
I guess I just come from a different background. I hate marketing schemes and will pay to make sure we don't see them.
P.S. What game's free to play? Baldur's Gate? No I definitely paid 30-40 dollars for the game when it came out. Neverwinter Nights? That one was 50-60. Their expansions? No each of those was 30+.
This is nothing new...new content costs money. I can't fathom why titling a game as free to play has been scewed into all content should be free.
It honestly sounds like you guys want freemium. All content is free...but in order for any hope to play long term you have to pay.
That's the only way we can have all content free and I won't be able to play the game if I feel like I *have* to pay for the experience boosts and health potions. I have no issue paying for a race I want but I have no desire to ever pay for consumables, ever.
Oh? So what are you trying to tell me that in 4th edition there are no racial modifiers? You think no race in 4e has any advantage depending on the situation? LOL Oh and if being a particular race is of no consequence to you I would question why the hell you would even want to play a D&D game tbh
In 4e the races have overlapping modifiers and given any class there are several "gold" races and even more "silver" races. But because of the way the system is designed almost any race can do a serviceable job of any class.
So much for the criticality of attribute scores.
Next in line is racial powers. Honestly they can be useful... But they also aren't critical. Again, the system design is so that almost any race can do a serviceable job at any class.
Finally racial feats. Some of these are great for some classes. And some aren't. Once again, the system is designed so that any race... blah blah blah.
The difference between an apex charop race for given class X is less than you might imagine in 4e. That's because the system was designed from the ground up to be a more level playing field. Yes, heavy charop will always incorporate racial choice, just as it will incorporate feat and class choices. But it's not crucial. And choosing a a "silver" race for a given class isn't an issue.
I'll recant slightly tho - I'll look to buy a race if there's no subscription option and I can't find anything more mechanically meaningful to spend my month's game-money on. But it's right down there for me, just above aesthetics. But that's just me.
*sigh* I know. More's the pity. I'll still budget the same for it tho. It'll be more inconvenient that way, but there we have it. Maybe. Hopefully there will end up being a subscription model, but... Whatever, I guess.
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Yeah I agree with a lot of what you say but the idea in gaming of "balance" is subjective. If a bunch of people who cannot play the game simply because they suck complain enough on the forums.... well we have all seen that happen...I played DDO when it first came out... was a good game and got initially wrecked by attempts to "balance." I don't know how it is now and I could care less tbh. But yeah monks solo clearing dungeons as the rest of the group sat and watched was pretty absurd...great balance. If someone is a great player and is able to play the class in a damn near perfect way they are what....yep O.P. right? Tell me you haven't seen that.... this whole discussion goes back to making vanilla games which in the end... always end up sucking.
You say it has nothing to do with PVP? Well I disagree. Obviously any dimwit would not want to see everyone equipped with "The Flyswatter of Flimsy" to kill mobs with while on class got the "Nuclear Demon-sword of Destruction." Uh yeah ok I think everyone gets that........ Does the type of balance these forum swarmers talk about have anything to do with that? Hell no. It's about making sure that their favorite melee class can't get frozen to the ground and two hit by a fellow player in pvp games.... now in non-pvp games it's about them being able to do anything they want and survive anything any other class can survive.... yeah VANILLA classes.....ok they all have different skills but none of them in the end have anything that differentiates their role~! wait....isn't D&D all about ROLE PLAYING?
On another note I can speak for myself...I'm not looking for a ...what did you call it..."freemium." I would rather this be a subscription game personally. You don't think people would pay for vanity items? Well you are wrong....they do it in every game that offers them....in fact a lot of females love that frilly HAMSTER you can buy and get entire wardrobes that do NOTHING but change the way they look. I would pay $5 - maybe even $10 a month just to get an in town speed boost or teleportation rune or something for convenience and if it's a good game I would do it even if I didn't need to just to support the game. Why would I be against paying for non-core races? I guess in the end I get sick of money grubbers for one... In the end the way some game companies operate...you end up paying triple if not more for what it would have cost you for a subscription based game. I mean after you HAMSTER about and accuse people of wanting a "freemium" your next line reads, "I guess I just come from a different background. I hate marketing schemes and will pay to make sure we don't see them."
Really? What do you think paying for non-core races would be? Just the opposite of a "freemium?" hehe Do a little research man vanity items and items that don't give on the field advantage to people are the way to go. Yeah I'm pretty passionate about it and really believe if you are going to make a "free to play" game it ought to put out all content FREE and make money from vanity items and etc that don't affect the mechanics of the game play battles. I will even give you this much how about $5-10 for a full unlock of all races right off the bat then? I'd be fine with that personally but you just know it's going to end up as some marketing scam where you end up paying 50 - 75 dollars minimum JUST to unlock races AND to unlock slots you would need to have the ability to create them all. In any game I play every single class if I can't.... I won't play....I get bored.
I'm sure the hell not going to pay for races, slots, pots, faster mounts, special armor with stats, special weapons, exp boosts, guild boosts....oh they going to sell gold too? Special gems, socketing scrolls that guarantee success.....been there done that... spent my hundreds of dollars...had fun....don't play the games anymore once I realized what an idiot I was for feeding the greed. Vanity and other non-game changing items? That's fine I would be willing to purchase some if I have an extra 5 - 10 bucks but that's my limit on ANY FTP game per month to support them. Need more money than that? Go with a LOW subscription rate say $5 - $10 a month and STILL offer vanity items for sale! Rake it in!! But you can't call it FTP when you withhold content.
In any case that type of issue should be fixed, not permitted to remain,as you imply. If you don't like games with balance I wish you the best of luck finding a game to play.
You tell me to do research yet have seemingly never come across the term Freemium. Let's not call the kettle black then.
People do buy vanity items and I hope the major amount of sellable items will be vanity items but that is doesn't mean players should expect every single thing to be free. Games like League of Legends can and do support themselves purely on vanity items but I don't expect we'll be able to see the same from NW. Classes and races take far more time to develop in a game like NW than retextures in other games.
Cryptic should give us a large selection of free races and classes...but honestly the time it takes to create each one is beyond daunting. If there's anything that they deserve money for, it's the creation of classes and races. It won't support the game alone but it will at least give them reason to keep producing them on a decent time frame...something you don't find coming from DDO.
"I'm sure the hell not going to pay for races, slots, pots, faster mounts, special armor with stats, special weapons, exp boosts, guild boosts....oh they going to sell gold too?"
The only game which runs on mainly on vanity items at this moment is League of Legends. Any other game sells everything else you're stating, requires a subscription or has a $60 purchasing fee. I want a NW to free to play game like League of Legends but there's a realistic point of view to be taken.
Stuff costs money to develop. If it doesn't make them money they won't develop it.
Now we should also consider the fact we will be receiving Astral Diamonds for playing the game, store credit in other words.
You don't *have* to buy races or classes. You could use Astral Diamonds to buy classes/races exactly as they do in League of Legends.
But under no circumstances should all of you expect to play this game and not be nudged to buy items in some way. We won't be seeing the rediculous pay to play that freemium content provides but I think we should all expect that there will be content we want to be released which will have to be paid for in one way or another and not all of it will be costume items.
You won't have to pay to enjoy the game or advance in the game. They promised that.
But free to play doesn't mean free by any means.
I think this sort of gets to the heart of the matter. One of the reasons I think discussions like this (or should classes be purchasable) is because it helps the Developers understand what content is important to us. Yes I love a great costume and I'll probably willing pay more for the "right" costume than most, but once I have the look I want I'm not likely to spend much more money on that characters looks. On the other hand I'm an altaholic and I love new and different races and classes. I'd love to play a Satyr, in fact if you're reading PWE/Cryptic people I'll pay $60 just to be able to play a Satyr cunning Bard
While I'm pretty open with what we don't know and try not to be secret on other thngs, this is one of those grey area times where I can say this:
Feedback is studied and listed to and internally tested and feedback on that from those testers refines their stuff more until they are done with one more feature they don't have to worry about for Beta.
All I can say really is pff... with a few responses...
1. I told you to do your research....u mad bro? "Freemium" is a mixture of the two words "Free" and "Premium." Yeah I know this word well. I guess what confused me is that you don't seem to understand it. THIS game if you have to pay for ANY content would qualify as that... it's exactly the opposite of the way you describe it unless the definition has changed.... which I doubt. You get some things free and for the full boat or extra features... you PAY. Yeah so...k that is what a "freemium" has always been otherwise it would just be called "free" right? or hell how about "free to play" now there is a definition that's odd...maybe should be called "Free to Play the Crippled Version".... or um PTW? ...crazy kids and your newfangled sayings....heh
2. Unless they changed the way League of Legends operates.... you are wrong again. You can buy characters and runes and cosmetics. As far as I know always could... haven't played in about 4 months did that change? Doubt it.
3. You said something useful thanks! Now I did not know about astral diamonds... this would solve my personal issue with getting soaked for cash to play the full game. I actually think that's fair as long as it is reasonable and not one of those things that is nearly impossible to achieve (again I get annoyed by pesky marketing ploys.) If it takes me a few weeks or a month to unlock something; I'm fine with that and I think most people would be too...the ones that don't want their pocketbook drained.
4. "Free to play doesn't mean free by any means"? Wow....ok.... wrong again. You can play this game for FREE you are charged nothing upfront and there are no requirements to pay in the future. Free to Play DOES mean free to play....it's just deceptive wording... Essentially what I think you are trying to say is (and I might agree) that Free to play games generally speaking suck; unless you shell out some hard cash.... now that could be a true statement.
5. DDO was a great game on release. If you played the game from launch or otherwise you would know what ruined the game...idiotic devs. Plain and simple.
Oh NO WAY was it a "great game on release!" it was a barren wasteland that screamed for more content and ANY kind of extras.
There was a reason I didn't stick around for its upcoming launch and waited many a month before "joining" DDO when I knew of it since pre-beta. If you thought Atari did Conan or STO badly...
Of course, we gloss over what we forgot we hated with nostalgia. I remember the same HAMSTER with EQ/UO/AO/GW, etc. But for the sake of discussion, let's base this on DDO only.
Let's begin with Game Revolution...
Oh look less content than what, Guild Wars. Whadda you know? Still one of my favorite quotes though is this one next,
remembering the non-content:
Let's move on.
Looking at Gamespy
This one fared better only 3/5 not lower. As said, "Well, they got the "dungeons" part right..."
Switching over to the next review still up since 2006, About.com which gives 3/5 but users give 1/5:
And one of the nicer Gamespot reviews said this
So please know the game stunk on content at release. I'd list more reviews then, but many 2006 reviews are not easily found still online; but they all echoed what the players said who were far from "casual players," that they had nothing to do after a month.
Sure it improved in some areas, but never really upped it's core class completion until years later (and don't get me started on rangers and ranged combat) and STILL has lag problems six years and coming up to nine months later. Hardly a "great on release" game, but just like every "stinker" game on release that was called epic years later.
Your memory may vary.
St. Augustinus
Alright, yeah there was a content issue and admittedly that is why we left the game in the end because we ran instances and raids until we couldn't stand it anymore....then they came out with this new pumped up raid no guild could beat... why? Well the finally figured out after a month or two...lol...it was bugged. The NPC dialogue was screwed yeah rangers were screwed for quite a bit...the initial concept was good and they did follow the rules as well as I expect they could....everyone had some complaints but it quickly went downhill due to what I figure was just plain old incompetence on the dev side... those articles? I wouldn't agree at least for me and my guild we had a good time for a few months...the skill changes etc... really ruined the game imo. Could just be me though I met a lot of good people in that game and we played other games as a small guild for years after that...one of the guys that started the DDO guild with me actually went back last year.... guild was still running and he STILL plays it today! I think he is insane...talked me into trying it out last year again and now.... it just sucks. I don't think $15 a month is unreasonable for a game at least at the time I'd put in way over 8 hours a day playing... more like 12++ hehe
Seriously do you remember the text from the npcs that was totally screwed up? Used to crack us up big-time....
I think this part of About.com's review is probably pretty fair or at least how I felt about it.
"Bottom Line
Oddly enough, DDO suffers from being a little too much like its PnP counterpart. Traditional D&D was always best among a group of close friends with a similar play schedule, and the same holds true for DDO. With the right group on the right quest it's an exceptional experience near the top of its class. The rest of the time, not so much."
It was for sure never a game you would find soloing enjoyable at least not for long. I did in fact have a tight small guild and we all played tons of hours at the same time...raiding just about everyday...Only thing I really hated about the game was the co-leader busting my balls about having a sissy looking DE Paladin haha... not sure what would have been better at the time... eq2 sucked... couldn't play eq 1 anymore.... like I said $15 a month for as much as I played didn't bother me one bit. It's a shame they ruined the game... I mentioned monks but seriously think they had some monk/wiz or /sorc build that would just gather up and clear the entire dungeon... so what did they do? They added a trigger that if there were to many mobs on you would get burdened and just clobbered... crappy dev team .. talk about wrecking immersion...a lot of absurd things happened to that game.... lack of content after people capped...we just started new characters I think and kept going till they released new content... then waiting on more content...couldn't take that anymore.
Bah, I stick with it... not a bad game at start imo... WOW was much worse I thought....much worse...
But to those who enjoy it and don't mind the OP result to monks but the nerf to ranger bows etc, more power to you!
The only reason many players did stick was that they "faithfully implemented 3.5e in MMO" which in turn had its own problems. 3.5e when faithfully implemented in MMO is sure to bring Sir Maximus Minimus into picture. A lot of patches were used to fight Sir Maximus Minimus. It was basically a caster's game. AC was broken, melee dps was way way lesser than dps by spells, lag problems, aiming was not proper etc etc etc. So many problems but the game survived because it was the only D&D MMO.
Later on they had a shift in their brilliant policy and concentrated not on pnp D&D players but MMO players. It happened around when they went f2p. I remember many old players being a bit critical of this step, but even us had realized one important truth - Simply that there are too few pnp D&D hardcore fans to have a viable MMO. That is the reason turbine was able to get a lot of support from people when they went f2p, and they earned a lot of respect of community by saving the sinking ship.
However, same is the reason for hostility now. They didn't stop at saving the sinking ship. They went all the way with this shift. This is simply because it was the profitable thing to do. That being the reason the old players kept on leaving the game one by one.
But it's not Freemium like DDO.
This is my experience with DDO: I log in and do all the missions on the first island. There are absolutely no stumbling blocks and I enjoyed every minute of it without paying for a single thing. I moved on to the second spawning location and although I found several quests right off the docks to do I ended up running out of new quests to play within a day after my arival. Since I was having so much fun I bought a few more quests and a couple of ingedient bags. After a few days of grinding I realized that if I wanted to do anything that wasn't redundant or slow I would have to pay for a subscription or spend a ton of cash on quests to play. It became more and more of a chore to play so I played the game for less than a month before becoming completely disenchanted.
That is Freemium. You can play but you won't in any way advance or at least not in an enjoyable/efficient way without paying for content.
Neverwinter will allow you to play all the Cryptic and all the UGC quests free of charge. You will have access to at least five different classes and races for free, including some that DDO charge for. While we do know XP Boosts will likely exist they shouldn't inhibit player's too much and also exist in DDO.
This is a free to play game. You can make 3,125 different class/race combos confirmed before the release for absolutely free. You will be able to feasibly reach level 60 in every account free of charge, something we all know isn't at all a reality in DDO.
I don't see any issue with having to pay for a few race or class options which are not core races. List of D&D Races.
I'd love to see most of the 4th edition (or earlier edition) races added to this game, but by no means do I think we should be given every single one free of charge...especially for something more unique like Genasi.
9/10 Free Core races and a few free non-core races is more than enough to be free to play. You don't need every race to enjoy a game...and nor would I say most races are that much better than others to the point it could be considered an unfair advantage (and those that are like Illithids I don't believe should be added)
While I agree with the sentiment of it's not a big deal if we have to pay for a few races I think your taking things out of proportion with DDO.
There are plenty of quest as f2p to reach 12, you CAN reach 20 too but it's much much easier if you buy a couple strategic quest packs. You are also leaving out how people can earn TP (the cash shop currency) just doing some favor grinding.
Point is both games will make you want to spend, just in a different way.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild