No you misunderstand I am pretty sure he said all content (and that he said that was all areas accessible in game and no locked classes etc) and that ONLY cosmetic, mounts and maybe a small xp section would be in the shop.
Yes, do you also remember that interview in which dev just shouts out, "No pay for content, at launch or expansion or later"? Also in that video (and as said before in link provided by sage Zebular too) he also says why classes won't be locked or made pay because it brings new players and they don't want any barriers.
If the information in the link that Zeb provided https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...qtpWO1s#t=639s is correct, then I wouldn't be surprised at all to see classes and races for sale in the shop. The ships Emmert talks about are essential "classes" options, they have powers and abilities inherent in them and they as he puts it "function" differently. Thinking in this context I'm beginning to think it is likely we will see different "builds" of core classes for sale in the shops. Maybe I'm wrong, but this vid leads me to that conclusion.
Yes, do you also remember that interview in which dev just shouts out, "No pay for content, at launch or expansion or later"? Also in that video (and as said before in link provided by sage Zebular too) he also says why classes won't be locked or made pay because it brings new players and they don't want any barriers.
Yeah I am pretty sure I remember some mention of anything added later would be free as well.
... Thinking in this context I'm beginning to think it is likely we will see different "builds" of core classes for sale in the shops. Maybe I'm wrong, but this vid leads me to that conclusion.
I'm guessing you are referring to him stating that a new character class brings new players correct? If so, there is nothing that suggests to me that that class will be for free. I'm sorry, but this is a business and new players that don't pay for anything don't do the business any good. Again, it suggests to me that maybe we'll see Archery Ranger added to the game for free, but we would have to pay for two weapons fighting style ranger. I don't see them making enough money on this game if it is truly free to play on just inventory slots or xp potions, not without having to nerf the free inventory slots and the free xp to the point that no one can play without buying these feature and that approach comes with its own problems.
I'm guessing you are referring to him stating that a new character class brings new players correct? If so, there is nothing that suggests to me that that class will be for free. I'm sorry, but this is a business and new players that don't pay for anything don't do the business any good. Again, it suggests to me that maybe we'll see Archery Ranger added to the game for free, but we would have to pay for two weapons fighting style ranger. I don't see them making enough money on this game if it is truly free to play on just inventory slots or xp potions, not without having to nerf the free inventory slots and the free xp to the point that no one can play without buying these feature and that approach comes with its own problems.
See, that sounds VERY unappealing. I'm more than willing to pay for a new class, but not for every version of them that exists. I don't wanna buy a druid, and then only get one of the 3 trees for it. That just seems like a cheap way of telling people "It's only 5 bucks!....plus 5,plus 5... I'm ALL for Cryptic selling me classes and races, because lets face it, vanity items are not going to keep this game running. People say "Well, this is a f2p game!" "angry grumbling of the cheap" and yes, THAT'S SO TRUE! "FREE.TO.PLAY." Not "Everything should be free you don't deserve our money and help."
This brings us to the sense of self-entitlement everyone feels they have. Well, you don't. Cryptic made NW for people to enjoy and see the D&D world brought to life (specifically FR). They also ask for a small fee to keep it going strong, then they GIVE us things that are for our use over and over. You don't have to buy it, but by doing so you help improve a game you hopefully enjoy and spend plenty of time on.
See, that sounds VERY unappealing. I'm more than willing to pay for a new class, but not for every version of them that exists. I don't wanna buy a druid, and then only get one of the 3 trees for it. That just seems like a cheap way of telling people "It's only 5 bucks!....plus 5,plus 5...I'm ALL for Cryptic selling me classes and races, because lets face it, vanity items are not going to keep this game running. People say "Well, this is a f2p game!" "angry grumbling of the cheap" and yes, THAT'S SO TRUE! "FREE.TO.PLAY." Not "Everything should be free you don't deserve our money."
This brings us to the sense of self-entitlement everyone feels they have. Well, you don't. Cryptic made NW for people to enjoy and see the D&D world brought to life (specifically FR). They also ask for a small fee to keep it going strong, then they GIVE us things that are for our use over and over. You don't have to buy it, but by doing so you help improve a game you hopefully enjoy and spend plenty of time on.
I tend to agree, I'd rather have both Guardian fighter and Great Weapon Fighter options than having to pay for one and instead I have to pay for Druid or Bard (with all builds coming with that). I'm just trying to be realistic, the game is going to need a means to make money and classes and races seem like the best options because as you said, "vainity items are not going to keep this game running."
I look at sub-based games with cash shops and I see them charging for these kinds of things and/or offering things like lockboxes. I'd rather see NW charge for these off the bat and charge a little more than see them nickle and dime me through lockboxes, or "account services" that simply make the game playable. I want NW to be a success and so realistically I'm telling Cryptic what I will and will not pay for.
I'm guessing you are referring to him stating that a new character class brings new players correct? If so, there is nothing that suggests to me that that class will be for free. I'm sorry, but this is a business and new players that don't pay for anything don't do the business any good. Again, it suggests to me that maybe we'll see Archery Ranger added to the game for free, but we would have to pay for two weapons fighting style ranger. I don't see them making enough money on this game if it is truly free to play on just inventory slots or xp potions, not without having to nerf the free inventory slots and the free xp to the point that no one can play without buying these feature and that approach comes with its own problems.
See, that sounds VERY unappealing. I'm more than willing to pay for a new class, but not for every version of them that exists. I don't wanna buy a druid, and then only get one of the 3 trees for it. That just seems like a cheap way of telling people "It's only 5 bucks!....plus 5,plus 5... I'm ALL for Cryptic selling me classes and races, because lets face it, vanity items are not going to keep this game running. People say "Well, this is a f2p game!" "angry grumbling of the cheap" and yes, THAT'S SO TRUE! "FREE.TO.PLAY." Not "Everything should be free you don't deserve our money and help."
This brings us to the sense of self-entitlement everyone feels they have. Well, you don't. Cryptic made NW for people to enjoy and see the D&D world brought to life (specifically FR). They also ask for a small fee to keep it going strong, then they GIVE us things that are for our use over and over. You don't have to buy it, but by doing so you help improve a game you hopefully enjoy and spend plenty of time on.
Let us not discuss how we want it to be, but how devs have stated it would be. Let us keep our opinions from influencing facts. Personally I would like a system in which a class and race cost is based on how rare it is in realms. But we are to discuss cryptic's vision.
@varavr No it is not where they say content and class is completely but a reference to the reasoning why they are doing it. If you want the announcement, search the forums for posts made by a user ryvvik. He had found the scoope about it recently in which they said that content and classes will not be paid.
Now you may disagree with their decision and form an opinion aganst it, but it will not change the fact that they are following that model.
Though they have not mentioned races, but I highly doubt races will be paid based on their reasning and policy.
Let us not discuss how we want it to be, but how devs have stated it would be. Let us keep our opinions from influencing facts. Personally I would like a system in which a class and race cost is based on how rare it is in realms. But we are to discuss cryptic's vision.
@varavr No it is not where they say content and class is completely but a reference to the reasoning why they are doing it. If you want the announcement, search the forums for posts made by a user ryvvik. He had found the scoope about it recently in which they said that content and classes will not be paid.
Now you may disagree with their decision and form an opinion aganst it, but it will not change the fact that they are following that model.
Though they have not mentioned races, but I highly doubt races will be paid based on their reasning and policy.
I'm going to have to simply disagree with you on most counts here. I did search for posts by ryvvik, but I couldn't find what you are referring, maybe the search feature is still not working completely?
I'm going to have to simply disagree with you on most counts here. I did search for posts by ryvvik, but I couldn't find what you are referring, maybe the search feature is still not working completely?
Yeah, it isn't working for me too. I can't even find all the posts made by me last month ... dont know if it is something browser specific for me or for everyone ...
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2012
Try google, enter a search term and then add on the end:
[HTML]site:nw-forum.perfectworld.com[/HTML]
For example:
[HTML]zebular site:nw-forum.perfectworld.com[/HTML]
Thanks to humor by an undercover friend which made me remember "D00d R U S3R1OUS!!!?"
So you’re thinking along those lines of pieces of content that players could purchase in a microtransaction format?
Yeah we’ll be micro-transaction based. When you say content, if you mean items and boosts and other things, yes. In terms of missions and maps and all of that – absolutely not. We expect that as a free player you will be able to play game in its entirety without having to pay anything. You’ll be able to access all of the classes without having to pay anything, and we will not be selling powers. It’s not like you can just go to the store and buy a level 30 sword as a level 10 character. So we haven’t talked too much in terms of the details yet but that’s our high level approach. It’s interesting; we found again going back to that data side of things, what makes successful free-to-play monetization is perfectly aligned with what makes a game that your users are going to like. You actually look at the data and you have to evaluate it: “What are my players looking to do right now, what are they looking to buy, what could they want?” It’s an interesting perspective because normally as developers you go into your think tank and think about what you want to make and all these cool things in your mind, so I think our games that have been free-to-play have gotten infinitely better because of their transition to free-to-play.
p,s, There is at least one more place with both of these information toghether.
So as I said - classes, content is free and races are probably free based on their logic and reasoning.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Even if that is the case, there is nothing in the quote that suggests they won't be selling classes or races. The fact that it is being built as f2p from the ground up gives me more reason to believe that they will and honestly should sell classes and races. If it were sub-based game with a f2p option this would be different, but given that it is not (as far as we've been told) leads me to the decision that in order to create enough revenue they need to sell "big ticket items". Pets and outfits are not going to cut it.
Just for the record,
What do they mean when they say "Free to Play?" Do I have to buy the "Box" like I do in Guild Ward 2? Do I have to pay for mission content like I do in Dungeons and Dragons Online? Do I really have to buy components to be able to beat the enemies thus "pay to win?"
Updated 10/11/2012: When Cryptic says Free to Play, they mean free to play! No "client box" cost (a free download.) You never pay for "adventure modules" and you can beat the enemies without having to pay for gear! Andy Velasquez makes this explicitly clear on 5:24 of this video! The "microtransactions" will be discussed closer to launch and this will be updated as we receive more information. However, they should cover things like clothing and cosmetics (and possibly animals and other modes of transportation.) Finally, if there is any question to the validity of no Pay to Win:
Originally Posted by stormshade
We have no plans to sell the +5 Radiant Vorpal Sword of Immediate Dragon Slaying in Neverwinter.
There are no plans to make a quick dime off of players who just have to have that +5 suit of magical plate armor that just so happens to be wearable as cloth armor, and have a ridiculous amount of health regen and the ability to store any 6 spells of your choice for a 24 hours period of time.
Nor will will be selling other types of "power".
In short, pay to win is not what we want Neverwinter to be.
Thanks,
Stormshade
I addressed this in my FAQ (linked to my banner below) early on and updated it early October, (and the video in the answer also addressed their planned items at 5:54.) I'd love to include those later quotes here about content, but the FAQ was updated with the forum change and can't be edited without losing 5K+ worth of characters. I'm begging PWE for more...err working on it.
Thanks to humor by an undercover friend which made me remember "D00d R U S3R1OUS!!!?"
p,s, There is at least one more place with both of these information toghether.
So as I said - classes, content is free and races are probably free based on their logic and reasoning.
Interesting, thanks for finding it. I'm still not sure I believe I read it exactly the way you do. You'll have to forgive my cynicism in this regards, but if you'd been through STO and the Klingon debacle you might understand why I need to see things expressed in terms of no uncertainty. The words "full faction" came to mean very different things from when they were said to when the game was launched, so I take "all classes" to potentially be literal or referring to the classes that will be released with the core game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Interesting, thanks for finding it. I'm still not sure I believe I read it exactly the way you do. You'll have to forgive my cynicism in this regards, but if you'd been through STO and the Klingon debacle you might understand why I need to see things expressed in terms of no uncertainty. The words "full faction" came to mean very different things from when they were said to when the game was launched, so I take "all classes" to potentially be literal or referring to the classes that will be released with the core game.
A good point. Will they release with Honor or will they release it as P'tach!
A good point. Will they release with Honor or will they release it as P'tach!
Honestly I don't think their intention was every to deceive. I just think that sometimes developers speak in general terms or in terms of what they want to achieve before things like launch dates or business models are ever hammered out.
One of the reasons I am ok with paying for classes and races is because I fear there will be little incentive to add these things later if they don't plan to charge for them. These designs take time and money for the developers, if that time and money can be spent making free races or shop items, I'm pretty sure shop items are going to get more development time. I'd rather pay for things up front than either not see them in game because they cost too much to develop or see them shift from free to payed for later.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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neowolfenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 68
We are talking here about statements of the devs and their business model. The buisness model is different from previous games. Infact the buisness model of previous games has even gone a major overhail after PWE came in. So your assumption that "it will follow the same suit" does not hold any precedence with this game's situation.
Well I'm assuming your new to MMO's and hence probably a little less Jaded than the rest of us. But one thing you find is what devs say prior to release and what actually turns out to be the case can be a LARGE world between lol
p.s. also I don't really understand gas-spore comment. I am only interested in beholder pet. Was it supposed to be sarcasm?
No not sarcasm it was a joking comment referencing a plasuible Cheap alternative to an actual Beholder. Gas Spores were an old D&D creature that looked exactly like a Beholder but only had 1hp and when they were struck would explode into toxic gas.
Ser Alathor Crownguard, Cwelenas Alenuath, Dwarin Stonefist, Danaerys Hellborn
These designs take time and money for the developers, if that time and money can be spent making free races or shop items, I'm pretty sure shop items are going to get more development time. I'd rather pay for things up front than either not see them in game because they cost too much to develop or see them shift from free to payed for later.
EXACTLY Varr. Said it better than I was able to. I don't wanna see less time spent on classes/races because they aren't getting revenue out of it. So what, they want 5 bucks for a class/race. Or even 5 for a bundle of em! I don't bother spending money on games unless it's something I really want and, sorry to say, vanity items aren't usually worth it. Unless they're RPing items likes masks, tabards, and other things...ohmagerd that would be awesome! Ahem, well it's good to see some confirmation on 'technically' no cost classes though. So glad someone found that.
I find that hard to believe, at least just in my case. I've only spent a very small amount on master keys, yet I have spent a good deal on ships, costumes, pets, account unlocks, character renames, respecs and more.
I will never purchase another master key, whether for in game money or for real money. Out of the 23 keys I used, not one was a ship, which is all I wanted. I would have just rather bought the ships I wanted outright.. instead I ended up spending more than a single ship costs in the game and got nothing I wanted. So, I got burned and that reaffirmed my feeling that I never want to gamble with real money in an online game again.
Were the junk items in the boxes you opened worth at least the value of the key? I wouldn't mind that so much if I could then use or sell those items for gold. If all lockbox items could be traded or sold then I could eventually make enough gold to buy what I wanted.
It would bum me out if the coolest stuff was only in a lockbox. I would rather just buy what I want outright.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Were the junk items in the boxes you opened worth at least the value of the key? I wouldn't mind that so much if I could then use or sell those items for gold. If all lockbox items could be traded or sold then I could eventually make enough gold to buy what I wanted.
It would bum me out if the coolest stuff was only in a lockbox. I would rather just buy what I want outright.
I'll say when I got my one free key to show how the boxes open back then, no.
Whether they have improved since their intro and incarnation, I cannot say as I refused to spend RL money or convert dil to CP now Zen to try again.
IMHO, F2P games success lies in marketting, spamming ADs, than business model. Its hard to reach that crowd it seems. You need to get the name of the game everywhere! One thing I kinda figured from WoT myself, they are doing amazingly well only because they spam ADs on regular basis, game itself is real money trap.
F2P and Quality doesnt walk hand to hand, never, its more like guy is walking in the front and chick like 30 step behind.
I'm still not sure after reading your future posts how you'd get the beholder to obey. So how do you mount a behold....
You give it beholder slap if it does not obey. You do not have to do anything, the beholder will make you mount it - it is ...
*gunshots from S&P suit-men*
(Remembering his trainer Shi-tzu) truth they followed you here! Didnt you watch your back? ...
Interesting, thanks for finding it. I'm still not sure I believe I read it exactly the way you do. You'll have to forgive my cynicism in this regards, but if you'd been through STO and the Klingon debacle you might understand why I need to see things expressed in terms of no uncertainty. The words "full faction" came to mean very different things from when they were said to when the game was launched, so I take "all classes" to potentially be literal or referring to the classes that will be released with the core game.
As I said before, I am not going into debate on what will happen but only what they have stated and their vision. That is why I named it as a discussion of their business model. They may have to abandon it or it may go well - but I will not discuss that part as frankly I don't see much point in it until they actually tell us all the specifics on the shop items.
Well I'm assuming your new to MMO's and hence probably a little less Jaded than the rest of us. But one thing you find is what devs say prior to release and what actually turns out to be the case can be a LARGE world between lol
No I am not, your speculation would be incorrect. But as I said before a few times and again, I am discussing their business model only as I am not a real life oracle to predict future events of what "they will do".
Also, this is the first cryptic game which is f2p at release. So if they have never said before that X game will be f2p and turned out it was not simply because it is their first f2p MMO.
In other words, apples are apples, oranges are oranges.
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neowolfenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 68
No I am not, your speculation would be incorrect. But as I said before a few times and again, I am discussing their business model only as I am not a real life oracle to predict future events of what "they will do".
Also, this is the first cryptic game which is f2p at release. So if they have never said before that X game will be f2p and turned out it was not simply because it is their first f2p MMO.
Your certainly entitled to your opinion. I just don't agree with it. This is thier third F2p game, the first two are totally different games but thier cash shops work in similar ways have certain similar concepts and have recurring commonalities between them. There is nothing about this game that makes me think that will be any different here either. You think there is, I find that a bit Naive. Business Trends happen for a reason when people find something that wokrs they tend to keep repeating it until it doesnt its been repeated twice and thier third game looms.. common sense would dictate this games cash shop will work in a similar way.
As for speculation well until its gone Gold then everything here Dev related or not is speculation (we are all speculating) because until that point everything is subject to change. And a common rookie mistake is to assume everything devs say is written in stone, because this has repeatedly historically proved not to be the case..not just with Cryptic etc.. but with all companies throughout the industry. Information is only accurate at the time it is given, after that until the above is the case..its all just smoke in the wind.
You know you hope it won't follow the trend because they've said certain things to make you think it won't, I get that and part of me even hopes your right.. I just don't think you will be.
Ser Alathor Crownguard, Cwelenas Alenuath, Dwarin Stonefist, Danaerys Hellborn
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
To clear up any confusion there may be: STO and CO both began as Pay to Play games with Subscription/Lifetime Membership Only and no Cash Shops. They then later switched to a "Hybrid" Free to Play Model that has both Subscriptions and Lifetime Memberships as well as their Free To Play Memberships and as such have then incorporated a complimenting Cash Shop.
Neverwinter Online has been and is being built as a Complete Free To Play Model, with No Subscription or Lifetime Memberships. It has been stated several times by the Developers and Producers that Neverwinter's Business Model will not be the same as STO's and CO's. They stated, several times, that they are using not only their data from STO and CO, but also the data from PWE, to decide what is best and what isn't for their Cash Shop and Free To Play Model for Neverwinter Online.
Your opinion and your desire to have all races be free is understood and the comments that follow are in no way attempting to invalidate that opinion, in fact I am glad people are commenting that they will not pay for races.
Monetising actual content in a game designed from the ground up as f2p is unacceptable. That kind of business model is for games designed as p2p then go f2p, and it should stay there (and even there it's appaling). If you charge players that want to play a specific race or class, then your game is simply not free to play. Period.
What I think needs to be said though is the flip side to the above. If they don't charge for these things there is no incentive to make new races or classes, because there is no money in it, and the development time can be better spent on designing things that can be sold. Even if the game can make enough money to be successful by not selling these things it will still mean we see them less often because the point of this game from their end is to make a game that will make the company money and so the priorities of development will be things that bring them money. That doesn't mean if races and classes are free we won't see new ones ever, we just won't see them as frequently as we would if they were being sold.
The other concern to keep in mind is that if they plan to make their money off of things like inventory slots, character slots, health potions and xp potions. Then what does that mean for the game? Do I get 2 inventory slots for free and I have to buy more to even make the game playable? Is the xp grind so slow that I won't be able to really advance without buying xp potions? There has to be a demand for these things in game and so that means that what we get for free in some areas is going to be more "bare bones".
Free games are not free, they cost money to develop, they cost money to maintain. Maybe not every player will spend money on the game, but in order to stay alive the game is going to need a regular income be that from an artificial xp grind, a horrible lockbox scheme, or selling things like new races and or classes.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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vindiconMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Your opinion and your desire to have all races be free is understood and the comments that follow are in no way attempting to invalidate that opinion, in fact I am glad people are commenting that they will not pay for races.
What I think needs to be said though is the flip side to the above. If they don't charge for these things there is no incentive to make new races or classes, because there is no money in it, and the development time can be better spent on designing things that can be sold. Even if the game can make enough money to be successful by not selling these things it will still mean we see them less often because the point of this game from their end is to make a game that will make the company money and so the priorities of development will be things that bring them money. That doesn't mean if races and classes are free we won't see new ones ever, we just won't see them as frequently as we would if they were being sold.
The other concern to keep in mind is that if they plan to make their money off of things like inventory slots, character slots, health potions and xp potions. Then what does that mean for the game? Do I get 2 inventory slots for free and I have to buy more to even make the game playable? Is the xp grind so slow that I won't be able to really advance without buying xp potions? There has to be a demand for these things in game and so that means that what we get for free in some areas is going to be more "bare bones".
Free games are not free, they cost money to develop, they cost money to maintain. Maybe not every player will spend money on the game, but in order to stay alive the game is going to need a regular income be that from an artificial xp grind, a horrible lockbox scheme, or selling things like new races and or classes.
There are many ways to monetise new classes/races that do not involve paying for the classes themselves. Class/race specific mounts, pets and costumes, that carry an extra air of exclusivity with them, thus being more likely to sell. Experience boosts to help you level up faster with the new class, especially if they have some sort of small special sale for the new class, to incentivise players to buy more. New class specific gear, that will incentivise the purchase of more upgrade boosts. The same exactr way they monetise expansions - which, by your logic, are equally pointless for them to make as new classes, yet most f2p games see expansions every few months.
Or even charging a small fee for early access, then making the class available for free a week or two down the line - that could be fine too (under circumstances).
There are games that do that kind of thing, and without actually gimping the free player. Just because there are exp boosts and inventory upgrades for sale does not mean that the exp rate and free space respectively are so low the game is unplayable - that rarely happens. There is a balance between having too little free space to play and having so much that there's no point buying more, and there is a balance between leveling at a non-visible pace and leveling so fast that any further speed would not even be noticeable. And that balance is not as hard or as rare to achieve as you seem to think it is.
In f2p games, you have to essentially make your non-paying players second-class citisens, but without them actually realising that. You have to make your microtransactions seem very enticing, so that you actualy get to sell stuff, but never obligatory because that will just drive all your free players away. And free players, contrary to common believe, are not worthless leeches. They are what keeps the servers full and the world alive. Lose them and you lose all the paying members as well, because noone wants to play in a ghosttown.
If you put a fee on classes and races, then you're failing that - it's not a matter of whether you feel like paying or not anymore - you either pay or you can't play the game. That's not what free to play is.
You may be fine with that kind of business model, and that's fine, but I'm not. It doesn't matter the circumstances, but if I ever see a game that locks out content and still has the audacity to advertise itself as f2p, then I'm simply not even gonna give it a chance. I'm ok with having to buy a game and I'm ok with free to play, but individually charging for content is the worst kind of deal breaker for me.
The question if this f2p game will have paid races or not will not depend on reasoning on "what is f2p" as being discussed here - NO.
It will depend on statics. Does launching a race for free bring more money into game or making the new race paid being more profits? And depending on circumstances, it can be any.
I can postulate a few speculative cases:-
If the company is going bankrupt soon, and they know new races can't save the game - they will make it paid to get last flash before it fizzes out.
If the game is very popular and successful, but they are loosing the player base slowly to attrition to other games, they will release races for free to retain their player base.
If the game is so popular that 100% of the population plays it, they will make it paid to get more profits.
If the new race has special animations and all costumes are worn differently (e.g. genasi looking like fire or dragonborn with scales all over) they will make it paid to keep a distinction between 'normal' classes and 'new' classes which needed complete rework.
So you see it is not logic but cold profits which define whether race would be playable or not. Most likely it will be free because it seems most likely scenario for me, though very large variation from humanoid races might have price tag to them.
One can go on and on what is f2p game or not but never arrive at a definition - f2p is free to pay and not free to play. And it is not defined by 'convert' games like STO, DDO, CO or other such converted models but native models like vindicus, LoL, PWE etc.
Also, each game is individual in nature and one cannot say that because X is precedent in other games so it should be in this too, but it depends on profits and such. And most of the native f2p games do not put price tag on races/classes not because it is 'right' thing to do but because it is the 'profitable' thing to do.
Comments
Yes, do you also remember that interview in which dev just shouts out, "No pay for content, at launch or expansion or later"? Also in that video (and as said before in link provided by sage Zebular too) he also says why classes won't be locked or made pay because it brings new players and they don't want any barriers.
Yeah I am pretty sure I remember some mention of anything added later would be free as well.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Skip to 23mins 22sec in that video.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
I'm guessing you are referring to him stating that a new character class brings new players correct? If so, there is nothing that suggests to me that that class will be for free. I'm sorry, but this is a business and new players that don't pay for anything don't do the business any good. Again, it suggests to me that maybe we'll see Archery Ranger added to the game for free, but we would have to pay for two weapons fighting style ranger. I don't see them making enough money on this game if it is truly free to play on just inventory slots or xp potions, not without having to nerf the free inventory slots and the free xp to the point that no one can play without buying these feature and that approach comes with its own problems.
Use the one Zeb posted on the last page, don't know why my link isn't working.
See, that sounds VERY unappealing. I'm more than willing to pay for a new class, but not for every version of them that exists. I don't wanna buy a druid, and then only get one of the 3 trees for it. That just seems like a cheap way of telling people "It's only 5 bucks!....plus 5, plus 5... I'm ALL for Cryptic selling me classes and races, because lets face it, vanity items are not going to keep this game running. People say "Well, this is a f2p game!" "angry grumbling of the cheap" and yes, THAT'S SO TRUE! "FREE.TO.PLAY." Not "Everything should be free you don't deserve our money and help."
This brings us to the sense of self-entitlement everyone feels they have. Well, you don't. Cryptic made NW for people to enjoy and see the D&D world brought to life (specifically FR). They also ask for a small fee to keep it going strong, then they GIVE us things that are for our use over and over. You don't have to buy it, but by doing so you help improve a game you hopefully enjoy and spend plenty of time on.
I tend to agree, I'd rather have both Guardian fighter and Great Weapon Fighter options than having to pay for one and instead I have to pay for Druid or Bard (with all builds coming with that). I'm just trying to be realistic, the game is going to need a means to make money and classes and races seem like the best options because as you said, "vainity items are not going to keep this game running."
I look at sub-based games with cash shops and I see them charging for these kinds of things and/or offering things like lockboxes. I'd rather see NW charge for these off the bat and charge a little more than see them nickle and dime me through lockboxes, or "account services" that simply make the game playable. I want NW to be a success and so realistically I'm telling Cryptic what I will and will not pay for.
Let us not discuss how we want it to be, but how devs have stated it would be. Let us keep our opinions from influencing facts. Personally I would like a system in which a class and race cost is based on how rare it is in realms. But we are to discuss cryptic's vision.
@varavr No it is not where they say content and class is completely but a reference to the reasoning why they are doing it. If you want the announcement, search the forums for posts made by a user ryvvik. He had found the scoope about it recently in which they said that content and classes will not be paid.
Now you may disagree with their decision and form an opinion aganst it, but it will not change the fact that they are following that model.
Though they have not mentioned races, but I highly doubt races will be paid based on their reasning and policy.
I'm going to have to simply disagree with you on most counts here. I did search for posts by ryvvik, but I couldn't find what you are referring, maybe the search feature is still not working completely?
[HTML]site:nw-forum.perfectworld.com[/HTML]
For example:
[HTML]zebular site:nw-forum.perfectworld.com[/HTML]
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link
Thanks to humor by an undercover friend which made me remember "D00d R U S3R1OUS!!!?"
p,s, There is at least one more place with both of these information toghether.
So as I said - classes, content is free and races are probably free based on their logic and reasoning.
Just for the record,
I addressed this in my FAQ (linked to my banner below) early on and updated it early October, (and the video in the answer also addressed their planned items at 5:54.) I'd love to include those later quotes here about content, but the FAQ was updated with the forum change and can't be edited without losing 5K+ worth of characters. I'm begging PWE for more...err working on it.
I'm still not sure after reading your future posts how you'd get the beholder to obey. So how do you mount a behold....
*Undead S&P appear dragging truth away*
Wait, what I say, I just wanted to know how you mount a beholder?!
*They drag harder*
Oh I get it you sick undead FREAKS! Yeah right! I'm a Beholder-phile! Yeah, that's all I do lurking around in forums all day to MOUNT them....
*dragged out of the thread*
Interesting, thanks for finding it. I'm still not sure I believe I read it exactly the way you do. You'll have to forgive my cynicism in this regards, but if you'd been through STO and the Klingon debacle you might understand why I need to see things expressed in terms of no uncertainty. The words "full faction" came to mean very different things from when they were said to when the game was launched, so I take "all classes" to potentially be literal or referring to the classes that will be released with the core game.
A good point. Will they release with Honor or will they release it as P'tach!
Honestly I don't think their intention was every to deceive. I just think that sometimes developers speak in general terms or in terms of what they want to achieve before things like launch dates or business models are ever hammered out.
One of the reasons I am ok with paying for classes and races is because I fear there will be little incentive to add these things later if they don't plan to charge for them. These designs take time and money for the developers, if that time and money can be spent making free races or shop items, I'm pretty sure shop items are going to get more development time. I'd rather pay for things up front than either not see them in game because they cost too much to develop or see them shift from free to payed for later.
Well I'm assuming your new to MMO's and hence probably a little less Jaded than the rest of us. But one thing you find is what devs say prior to release and what actually turns out to be the case can be a LARGE world between lol
No not sarcasm it was a joking comment referencing a plasuible Cheap alternative to an actual Beholder. Gas Spores were an old D&D creature that looked exactly like a Beholder but only had 1hp and when they were struck would explode into toxic gas.
EXACTLY Varr. Said it better than I was able to.
Were the junk items in the boxes you opened worth at least the value of the key? I wouldn't mind that so much if I could then use or sell those items for gold. If all lockbox items could be traded or sold then I could eventually make enough gold to buy what I wanted.
It would bum me out if the coolest stuff was only in a lockbox. I would rather just buy what I want outright.
I'll say when I got my one free key to show how the boxes open back then, no.
Whether they have improved since their intro and incarnation, I cannot say as I refused to spend RL money or convert dil to CP now Zen to try again.
F2P and Quality doesnt walk hand to hand, never, its more like guy is walking in the front and chick like 30 step behind.
*gunshots from S&P suit-men*
(Remembering his trainer Shi-tzu) truth they followed you here! Didnt you watch your back? ...
As I said before, I am not going into debate on what will happen but only what they have stated and their vision. That is why I named it as a discussion of their business model. They may have to abandon it or it may go well - but I will not discuss that part as frankly I don't see much point in it until they actually tell us all the specifics on the shop items.
No I am not, your speculation would be incorrect. But as I said before a few times and again, I am discussing their business model only as I am not a real life oracle to predict future events of what "they will do".
Also, this is the first cryptic game which is f2p at release. So if they have never said before that X game will be f2p and turned out it was not simply because it is their first f2p MMO.
In other words, apples are apples, oranges are oranges.
Your certainly entitled to your opinion. I just don't agree with it. This is thier third F2p game, the first two are totally different games but thier cash shops work in similar ways have certain similar concepts and have recurring commonalities between them. There is nothing about this game that makes me think that will be any different here either. You think there is, I find that a bit Naive. Business Trends happen for a reason when people find something that wokrs they tend to keep repeating it until it doesnt its been repeated twice and thier third game looms.. common sense would dictate this games cash shop will work in a similar way.
As for speculation well until its gone Gold then everything here Dev related or not is speculation (we are all speculating) because until that point everything is subject to change. And a common rookie mistake is to assume everything devs say is written in stone, because this has repeatedly historically proved not to be the case..not just with Cryptic etc.. but with all companies throughout the industry. Information is only accurate at the time it is given, after that until the above is the case..its all just smoke in the wind.
You know you hope it won't follow the trend because they've said certain things to make you think it won't, I get that and part of me even hopes your right.. I just don't think you will be.
To clear up any confusion there may be: STO and CO both began as Pay to Play games with Subscription/Lifetime Membership Only and no Cash Shops. They then later switched to a "Hybrid" Free to Play Model that has both Subscriptions and Lifetime Memberships as well as their Free To Play Memberships and as such have then incorporated a complimenting Cash Shop.
Neverwinter Online has been and is being built as a Complete Free To Play Model, with No Subscription or Lifetime Memberships. It has been stated several times by the Developers and Producers that Neverwinter's Business Model will not be the same as STO's and CO's. They stated, several times, that they are using not only their data from STO and CO, but also the data from PWE, to decide what is best and what isn't for their Cash Shop and Free To Play Model for Neverwinter Online.
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Your opinion and your desire to have all races be free is understood and the comments that follow are in no way attempting to invalidate that opinion, in fact I am glad people are commenting that they will not pay for races.
What I think needs to be said though is the flip side to the above. If they don't charge for these things there is no incentive to make new races or classes, because there is no money in it, and the development time can be better spent on designing things that can be sold. Even if the game can make enough money to be successful by not selling these things it will still mean we see them less often because the point of this game from their end is to make a game that will make the company money and so the priorities of development will be things that bring them money. That doesn't mean if races and classes are free we won't see new ones ever, we just won't see them as frequently as we would if they were being sold.
The other concern to keep in mind is that if they plan to make their money off of things like inventory slots, character slots, health potions and xp potions. Then what does that mean for the game? Do I get 2 inventory slots for free and I have to buy more to even make the game playable? Is the xp grind so slow that I won't be able to really advance without buying xp potions? There has to be a demand for these things in game and so that means that what we get for free in some areas is going to be more "bare bones".
Free games are not free, they cost money to develop, they cost money to maintain. Maybe not every player will spend money on the game, but in order to stay alive the game is going to need a regular income be that from an artificial xp grind, a horrible lockbox scheme, or selling things like new races and or classes.
There are many ways to monetise new classes/races that do not involve paying for the classes themselves. Class/race specific mounts, pets and costumes, that carry an extra air of exclusivity with them, thus being more likely to sell. Experience boosts to help you level up faster with the new class, especially if they have some sort of small special sale for the new class, to incentivise players to buy more. New class specific gear, that will incentivise the purchase of more upgrade boosts. The same exactr way they monetise expansions - which, by your logic, are equally pointless for them to make as new classes, yet most f2p games see expansions every few months.
Or even charging a small fee for early access, then making the class available for free a week or two down the line - that could be fine too (under circumstances).
There are games that do that kind of thing, and without actually gimping the free player. Just because there are exp boosts and inventory upgrades for sale does not mean that the exp rate and free space respectively are so low the game is unplayable - that rarely happens. There is a balance between having too little free space to play and having so much that there's no point buying more, and there is a balance between leveling at a non-visible pace and leveling so fast that any further speed would not even be noticeable. And that balance is not as hard or as rare to achieve as you seem to think it is.
In f2p games, you have to essentially make your non-paying players second-class citisens, but without them actually realising that. You have to make your microtransactions seem very enticing, so that you actualy get to sell stuff, but never obligatory because that will just drive all your free players away. And free players, contrary to common believe, are not worthless leeches. They are what keeps the servers full and the world alive. Lose them and you lose all the paying members as well, because noone wants to play in a ghosttown.
If you put a fee on classes and races, then you're failing that - it's not a matter of whether you feel like paying or not anymore - you either pay or you can't play the game. That's not what free to play is.
You may be fine with that kind of business model, and that's fine, but I'm not. It doesn't matter the circumstances, but if I ever see a game that locks out content and still has the audacity to advertise itself as f2p, then I'm simply not even gonna give it a chance. I'm ok with having to buy a game and I'm ok with free to play, but individually charging for content is the worst kind of deal breaker for me.
It will depend on statics. Does launching a race for free bring more money into game or making the new race paid being more profits? And depending on circumstances, it can be any.
I can postulate a few speculative cases:-
So you see it is not logic but cold profits which define whether race would be playable or not. Most likely it will be free because it seems most likely scenario for me, though very large variation from humanoid races might have price tag to them.
One can go on and on what is f2p game or not but never arrive at a definition - f2p is free to pay and not free to play. And it is not defined by 'convert' games like STO, DDO, CO or other such converted models but native models like vindicus, LoL, PWE etc.
Also, each game is individual in nature and one cannot say that because X is precedent in other games so it should be in this too, but it depends on profits and such. And most of the native f2p games do not put price tag on races/classes not because it is 'right' thing to do but because it is the 'profitable' thing to do.