You are also leaving out how people can earn TP (the cash shop currency) just doing some favor grinding.
I honestly wouldn't even count those. They were a once over deal and really pitiful compared to what you could buy. Better than nothing but you could hardly afford to buy anything with them if memory serves.
I'm merely expressing the way I felt playing the game and that's not out of proportion, it's an opinion. I felt smothered and harrassed to spend money on the game and the first few times I did just because of my past enjoyment of the game. If your opinion varies, it varies, but note too that I only played post-freemium. Many players who enjoyed DDO talk highly of it when it was subscription only and often state how far downhill it went after the freemium switch. Perhaps your point of view is skewed by not first experiencing the game as a freemium user.
In any case there's a difference between feeling the desire to spend for some additional options and the desire to spend to advance. I absolutely got to level 12 without an issue and then I felt like I hit a wall...and that's the point when I stopped having fun.
I don't need every race to have fun...and 5 bucks to enjoy a race I'm interested in isn't too big of a deal to me, but on the other side of the coin I don't like being put into a position where I *have* to pay in order to continue to level a character at a decent/enjoyable rate.
And that is the difference between Free to Play and Freemium.
An addendum - drow and genasi are considered core for Forgotten Realms campaign setting.
A forgotten Realms Core Race list would be highly beneficial. Post it or link it if you could
I tried to find one but a generalized D&D Player Race list one wiki was all I could find.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2012
On a more specific note about TP we have already been informed that Neverwinter will be using a system more akin to STO, CO and more importantly other Free to Play Games such as League of Legends.
Basically TP was a one time grind. You could only achieve a set value of free items.
When you look at other Cryptic Games which are Freemium or other true Free to Play Games you're not given a static value of cash to spend per account but rather rewarded for playing and enjoying the game. This is what sets the big difference between Freemium and Free to Play because while I am absolutely endorsing Cryptic setting fees to unlock additional races I am ONLY doing so with the knowledge we can use store credit in order to purchase them...
In theory if Cryptic released an end result of 20 Pay to Play Races and Classes you could still get every one of them without spending a cent if you put the time into the game to earn the store credit. This can't be said of DDO. If you really want the new races right as they are released go buy them, support the game. Otherwise use the store credit.
This is exactly how League of Legends operates. Cosmetics and Reward Boosts have to be purchased with money but any new champion (race/class) can be purchased with store credit. In Theory you could play long enough to earn every single champion and play thousands of hours without spending a single cent.
That's how NW will be. This isn't going to be a Freemium DDO game where they give you a small taste and anything else you have to buy in order to advance.
On a more specific note about TP we have already been informed that Neverwinter will be using a system more akin to STO, CO and more importantly other Free to Play Games such as League of Legends.
Basically TP was a one time grind. You could only achieve a set value of free items.
When you look at other Cryptic Games which are Freemium or other true Free to Play Games you're not given a static value of cash to spend per account but rather rewarded for playing and enjoying the game. This is what sets the big difference between Freemium and Free to Play because while I am absolutely endorsing Cryptic setting fees to unlock additional races I am ONLY doing so with the knowledge we can use store credit in order to purchase them...
In theory if Cryptic released an end result of 20 Pay to Play Races and Classes you could still get every one of them without spending a cent if you put the time into the game to earn the store credit. This can't be said of DDO. If you really want the new races right as they are released go buy them, support the game. Otherwise use the store credit.
This is exactly how League of Legends operates. Cosmetics and Reward Boosts have to be purchased with money but any new champion (race/class) can be purchased with store credit. In Theory you could play long enough to earn every single champion and play thousands of hours without spending a single cent.
That's how NW will be. This isn't going to be a Freemium DDO game where they give you a small taste and anything else you have to buy in order to advance.
Oh and speaking as a person who converted in DDO and went all the way up to L 18 and STILL had to pay the difference to get his Warforged "back" there's only so much TP you can grind for.
I honestly wouldn't even count those. They were a once over deal and really pitiful compared to what you could buy. Better than nothing but you could hardly afford to buy anything with them if memory serves.
I'm merely expressing the way I felt playing the game and that's not out of proportion, it's an opinion. I felt smothered and harrassed to spend money on the game and the first few times I did just because of my past enjoyment of the game. If your opinion varies, it varies, but note too that I only played post-freemium. Many players who enjoyed DDO talk highly of it when it was subscription only and often state how far downhill it went after the freemium switch. Perhaps your point of view is skewed by not first experiencing the game as a freemium user.
In any case there's a difference between feeling the desire to spend for some additional options and the desire to spend to advance. I absolutely got to level 12 without an issue and then I felt like I hit a wall...and that's the point when I stopped having fun.
I don't need every race to have fun...and 5 bucks to enjoy a race I'm interested in isn't too big of a deal to me, but on the other side of the coin I don't like being put into a position where I *have* to pay in order to continue to level a character at a decent/enjoyable rate.
And that is the difference between Free to Play and Freemium.
A forgotten Realms Core Race list would be highly beneficial. Post it or link it if you could
I tried to find one but a generalized D&D Player Race list one wiki was all I could find.
No disrespect but your memories are faulty and you are spreading false information, I have some guildies who have unlocked all the packs via favor grinding. It seems quite clear to me you guys didn't know what you were doing and didn't look for any favor farming guides. As such you are putting things out of proportion even if it's because you are relying on faulty memories and lack of real info.
I've been playing DDO as a premium player since it went f2p and I do KNOW what I am talking about.
I dunno were you are getting your info but TP is NOT a one time grind, you can earn as much of it as you want. The first time you get TP on a server you get a bonus amount but you can continue to get TP. I do it often, easy way to do it after the first time bonus is to grind 100 favor get your 25 tp delete toon grind out another 25 tp with new toon so on and so forth, is very fast too if you have a high level toon you can run with to smash thru the quests.
You can get every single item in DDO and not give turbine a cent if you wanted, though now that would be a big grind considering some of the new cosmetic pets cost as much as adv pack.
Here is a Link to favor grinding. Many people just grind out like say 1k favor on each server for the one time bonus then choose their main server and play there and 100 favor farm that server for more. Depends on how much time you want to put into it. Best thing is to at least buy tp once (the lowest amount) to get rid of some of the stupid restrictions.
The quest I run for my 100 favor runs. They are all f2p quests, name of quest, total favor and where it is. To get total favor you must run it on elite.
1) Heyton's Rest 6 korthos
2) Storehouse Secret 6 korthos
3) Cannith Crystal 6 korthos
4) Collaborator 12 korthos
5) Bringing The Light 6 harbor-leaky dinghy
6) Information Is Key 12 harbor-leaky dinghy
7) Haverdasher 6 harbor
8) Durk's Secret 12 harbor
9) Garrison's Pack 12 harbor
10) The Lost Tome 9 harbor
11) Kobolds new ringleader 12 harbor
12) Butcher's Path 12 harbor
13) the sunken sewer 9 marketplace
14) swiped signet 12 marketplace
Total favor in all(elite) = 132
No disrespect but your memories are faulty and you are spreading false information, I have some guildies who have unlocked all the packs via favor grinding. ...
The reason DDO is not regarded true f2p is because you cannot have one character and take it all the way to end. You have to play multiple characters on multiple servers to get TP points. There are simply many points where you run out of f2p content and you have to stop that character and start with other character on other server and use the TP points to buy content.
And you can only buy specific content - if you make a mistake, you are basically stuck with making characters and deleting them running same content again and again.
NW will be f2p because you do not have to grind for content like that with different characters. Apart from the fact that your initial character can never be your main character due to min-max enviornment of DDO. You need 32point build for any decent epic gameplay and your first character is always 28point build unless you buy it. Basically selling power in a high min-max environment.
I love the F2P model, but it has been lacking in many area. I know that the companies want to make money, but I don't see the need to introduce lockboxes or "card packs" into a game to do so. I really hope that some of the other posts that it will not be introduced into this game are true. I am all for charging for vanity items. Also, noncritical game elements as well.
The hybrid of dilitium in STO (an aspect of PLEX in EVE Online) is only appealing since it allows those who do not have the money to spend on the game to purchase Zen and aquire vanity items or content they desire. Effectively having someone else pay for their experience. I personally have been very poor at times and just having internet access was a luxury. Being able to grind for game store currency is about the only grind aspect that appealed to me.
Having a further hybrid of such would yield better result, in my opinion. Rather than grinding the same mission over and over, having level presets that rank with your character would be better. For example, STO Lieutenant missions could have their ranking counterpart in Lieutenant Commander, Commander, etc. that grant dilitium rather than xp. Each ranking level would have harder enemies and more complex goals to achieve to complete.
To follow along in this example, the last series I had fun with was "The 2800" Taking the first mission and adding in more complex interactions with the diplomats would be one way to expand upon and challenge players. Making the route to escourt the diplomats more complex and indirect would also. The ship breakout should have just been the first wave right after beaming out, then add in the successive waves and resque of ships as part of advanced play. This adds in replayability without turning it into a grind, like say mining or academy events. I'm not saying that they don't have a place. They do. Just not such a prominent one.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Craig tweeted this link. Its on f2p business model. Its a nice read and also has his version of f2p in context of cryptic games STO and NWO.
The important point made is, it is more about having a quality game. Many low quality games tried to cash in f2p business model in a dirty way by squeezing the juice of the game quickly and throw them, but that is no longer the option now. Now having a quality product which can identify itself out of many lesser quality MMO in market of f2p is required.
It is like walking in store freely and buying the products you see - something like supermarket.
Interesting link....I sort of think the article is grasping at straws to be honest. I could be wrong I mean TL2 is an excellent game but it's not F2P though.... Blacklight seemed like a great game but FULL of hacking... had to quit. All the rest of PW's games to be totally honest just stink to no end. Maybe an Asian audience is into what they have to offer for a variety of reasons but I haven't run into many Americans that are like DUDE YOU GOTTA PLAY Battle of the Immortals!!! Held my attention for about 2 weeks when I was bored and I thought it was mediocre at best.
EA? LOL WTF game do they have that was developed as F2P that's good? Warhammer didn't start as F2P when it dumped due to well... sucking end game the last ditch effort was to go F2P. How about other games with high quality graphics? Lets say SWTOR? Game was pretty good till they started to "balance" for pvp... game ruined people left... yep went F2P.
The Best F2P games I've played are either retail games that flopped because either 1. The devs were mentally challenged 2. The business side of the company FORCED the devs to do thing that made them appear mentally challenged. 3. The games are a virtual hackers paradise. The hackers could care less if they get banned...a new account with no trace to the hacker can be created and hacks applied within 5 minutes of the ban. We have seen this in I think EVERY SINGLE FPS out there... easy to spot in an fps....well easy to spot in most games really... the little guy that runs a thousand mph in circles around you hacking away and zips off after your dead like the guy is Roadrunner in some Warner Bros. cartoon.
Maybe this HAMSTER works in China sure isn't very impressive here imo. Long way to go. I keep hoping for a good title and really the only one I really found that was fun and challenging so far has been League of Legends which isn't really the sort of game I like .... but I have to admit it's was entertaining and I dumped a few bucks into it even though I was a marginal player at best. What was their secret? Well I think it worked where the other games didn't....it's FUN.... a concept I think a lot of companies forgot about.
The only thing in LOL you couldn't get by just playing were cosmetic skins and THAT's IT! At least that's all I saw when I was playing.
I have hope for NW because it's a great concept and the only games I really want to play are games at least somewhat based on CRPGs....how to wreck it? Get greedy. Companies need to quit trying to be WOW and do their own thing ffs.
In the end and I really believe this....at best at this point in the MMORPG F2P arena I'd say any large scale game probably has about a 70% chance of complete failure within 2 years of release. The highest probability of success are PVP F2P games with massive end game zones that challenge players in different ways...face paced... nerve wracking.... skill testing reflex games.... yep like LOL.
I read down a few articles while writing this and someone called RaiderZ a AAA game? please... Blacklight could have been and maybe COULD be except for the invasion of hackers...same with AVA... fun game...major hacks....etc etc etc the list is as long as the list of F2P FPS...
Anyway, I hope NW works...I want it to work...I have MAJOR doubts just because of the F2P model...again due to greed, and lack of a subscription which is nothing but an invite for hackers imo...I think they would be better off putting out a demo similar to the model Tera used, just charge 10 - 15 usd for a digital copy and STILL keep an in game store with vanity items of all types. Will it work? Yep.... if the game doesn't suck. People blame a lack of ROI on everything it seems like except that the game SUCKED! That's one of the biggest problems with the gaming industry. Everyone involved in the production from investment on fall into a category with something in common...they are working, investing, and even the playing fan boi... the commonality is they all believe in the product with ALL their little hearts....problem is if it sucks... it sucks period. If you have a good product it doesn't matter what business model you use....there are not enough GREAT games out there to kill competition of other GREAT games... people might think so but they are only fooling themselves....funny part is how they can't believe they failed. meh anyway
Yeah so I hope NW does do well.... I'd rather pay 20 - 30 for a game and an industry low monthly fee...hell do that and still have a vanity store...seriously? You got a good game? THAT would work too guaranteed.
0
vindiconMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
Ehmm... RaiderZ IS a AAA game. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a good game -that depends on individual taste- but you would be blind to deny that it does have quite a lot of quality going on, certainly more than many of the recent 60$ retail games.
Money has a way of getting around ... because it is meant to. If you introduce a fictional cash equivalent of ingame items (which is in itself, a misconception of money worth), you will get circulated corruption. Money does not make for quality, it makes for business. Therefore any piece of entertainment that includes a cash cop does never qualify for AAA ratings. Not in my cultural background, anyway. Imagine Wagner's "Ring" with a varying display of Hotdogs and Viagra comercials on the back of the stage ! Impossible, without any doubt. Equally, nobody would agree with a donut and popcorn seller going around in the aisles during the show.
If attempting to invite players without an initial fee, then give them the option to pay for when they decide to stay. Make them pay for online time. Whatever, just stop annoying people with perpetual cash stops.
Money has a way of getting around ... because it is meant to. If you introduce a fictional cash equivalent of ingame items (which is in itself, a misconception of money worth), you will get circulated corruption. Money does not make for quality, it makes for business. Therefore any piece of entertainment that includes a cash cop does never qualify for AAA ratings. Not in my cultural background, anyway. Imagine Wagner's "Ring" with a varying display of Hotdogs and Viagra comercials on the back of the stage ! Impossible, without any doubt. Equally, nobody would agree with a donut and popcorn seller going around in the aisles during the show.
If attempting to invite players without an initial fee, then give them the option to pay for when they decide to stay. Make them pay for online time. Whatever, just stop annoying people with perpetual cash stops.
I would liken a cash shop more to the sale of the CD's of the Ring Cycle or other Wagner memorabilia in the lobby than to on stage advertising. Regardless, we know NW is f2p and we know it is going to have a cash shop, if that's a deal break for you I'm sorry. What we don't know and what I think is the more important thing to "feedback" to the devs and company is what you are willing to pay for in said cash shop.
:rolleyes:i am willing to pay for my enterteinment, even more so for someone elses entertainment. Thats the whole point man ! There has to be revenue or else the game will not be able to exist. Did anyone ever post that they wanted to gamble for random items on an ingame tombola ? (fumbles around in a briefcase, producing ... a bible) MY KIDS WILL NEVER PLAY A GAME WITH A CASH SHOP YOU HEAR ? NEVER !
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2012
Another thing to note is that every study shows that Freemium Games are pretty well disliked by the general market.
Players are willing to deal with them for the time being but any research on the subject you can find will without a doubt show how bad the freemium model is.
Freemium has every issue a free to play cash shop game has with the added side effect of the demo state. If you look at other subscription games which also has a free version, while the free versions will have plenty of people come and play, the retention rates for those players are infinitely low. When the free plateau is reached and players are given the ultimate option to spend money on a subscription or simply buy to unlock content it's a true point of disenchantment. Most players which reach the peak of the free challenge plateau will choose to walk away from the game rather than pay a subscription or content fee.
The difference between a Freemium Model and the Free to Play Model that NW will incorporate is that paying nothing won't limit your ability to advance. Your game rewards and your in game power will not be affected by how much money you spend on the game so the only thing which will make you any slower at advancing in the game would be purchased experience bonuses.
Now for all the bluster of cash shops being a breaking point for you, I'm sorry to say but this *is* the future of the industry. Subscriptions will die off as they already have been doing for some time now. It's up to the developers to realize it's outright wrong to sell power in the game but there's no reason you should complain about visual upgrades or optional unlocks. Don't buy them for your kids and tell them why you feel the way you do by all means but understand at this point you're unlikely to be able to buy even a third the games on the market without dealing with some form of cash shop and that ratio is getting less every year.
Virtually every game in production which aims for player retention now has some form of cash shop which, if done correctly, can provide a much better game for both the free players and the people who like to waste cash on useless content like appearance changes. The revenue from cash shops have, in most cases, shown to be even more profitable than subscription based games with few of the issues which plague the Freemium Games.
If you truly want to see just how bad off the state of affairs are on subscription based games I invite you to look up the plague of problems Star Wars: The Old Republic had. I won't lie and claim to be an expert but what I do know is that...
1) Throughout the production time the developers stated that it would be a subscription only game and they absolutely would not go Freemium.
2) Within two to three months the subscriptions were so limited the developers switched to a Freemium Business Model
And honestly I hate the Freemium Model with a passion. It's literally an ultimatum: pay the sub fee or pay 10x as much for content.
But if having a cash shop is a deal breaker, you won't find an MMO in a couple of more years without one. I guarantee you that.
i dont understand: did they somehow make the experience that people actually buy useless stuff ? thats going to be the only revenue ?
i can see them charge 100e for a car in CO and thats, understandably, more revenue. I can also see them sell crappy and useless items that look really interesting BEFORE you buy them etc. (eg "gives you a chance to win a car" turns out not have a win percentage of below 0.01).
if freemium model means you can get a flatrate on all that, i want one.
about starwars: bioware made a mess of a beautiful game, it had no endgame. there was no grouping tool whatsoever. you had to wait in line for the few daily dungeons and it was neigh impossible to get inside. that why it failed. going ftp did nothing to change that. nobody ever objected to playing a fee, they just didnt like the game. period.
also, you cant compare 90% of newly free games to a "quality" title like NWN. Look at customers and decide wether they are a) just popping by on a holiday b) genuinly interested in a new pastime or c) dedicated gamers with a passion for the genre. The a) kind will just log off and try something else if you cough at them. b) will probably not want to pay more than a percentage of the income and c) will do as you say if it gets them into the game. if you want to make a game that caters to a), you cant be serious. you got to pull a fish if you want to cook dinner.
i dont understand: did they somehow make the experience that people actually buy useless stuff ? thats going to be the only revenue ?
[snip]
Already you're using a straw man argument based off of a flawed opinion. It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what everybody thinks as a whole. Did you research how this works even if in a non-academic level like here? This makes a serious amount of money.
I kow many of you are relatively new or lurking, but I already had this discussion with F2P games and revenue and multiple articles showing how the "cosmetics" purchase often performed better than the subscription models everybody insisted was needed even if "Freemium" seven months ago. I listed this here.
I even took the time and combed through the system with a not fully easy to use search function on an archived post to do this. So if there is to be any contrasting reply from anybody about this, I'd appreciate at least some time and research into it. Thank you.
Already you're using a straw man argument based off of a flawed opinion. It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what everybody thinks as a whole. Did you research how this works even if in a non-academic level like here? This makes a serious amount of money.
Sadly the SWTOR devs did not watch this video despite the fact I posted it there when the fp2 move was announced.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
I haven't checked, is The Secret World also suffering in their Subscription model?
I haven't checked, is The Secret World also suffering in their Subscription model?
Honestly I don't know I didn't follow the game, but I've heard mixed reivews about its success so I wouldn't be surprised.
I think the biggest problem with most Western f2p models is that not only were they based on the hybrid-freemium idea, but they failed to monetize things realistically. Plus the shift was often down when the game was already in financial trouble rather than a as a move to keep up with the industry. Proactive actions are always more successful than reactive, when it comes to things like this.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Plus the shift was often down when the game was already in financial trouble rather than a as a move to keep up with the industry. Proactive actions are always more successful than reactive, when it comes to things like this.
Very true, and that was my point. There are maybe one or two MMO's which are purely subscription based at this point in time because the Freemium Model has been far more successful than a subscription model. The big problem with Freemium though is that they charge for content which not only is desired but virtually required.
They look at the market from a different point of view. The simplest way to describe it is they view their games as subscription games with a cash shop. It's blatantly screams greed when you read in to the fees and the content you buy.
The free to play model gives the game for free...
If players are playing the game eventually they will buy some stuff and it will often add up to more than the actual subscription costs. When I started playing League of Legends I laughed saying 'wow why would I ever give them money?' I lost count with how much I have given them but it's at least 80-100 in the last year and that's more than some other subscription games.
In a nutshell the Free to Play Model works great because you make players fall in love with the game. If they don't *have* to pay you for important content like quests then they are free to enjoy the game. It's almost like a peer pressure situation because eventually the game will switch from the developers wanting the players to buy stuff to the players looking forward to buying stuff.
It sounds absurd but it works as long as the developers make sure consider exactly what they do and do not sell *nudge please do NOT put those Lockboxes into Neverwinter*
Very true, and that was my point. There are maybe one or two MMO's which are purely subscription based at this point in time because the Freemium Model has been far more successful than a subscription model. The big problem with Freemium though is that they charge for content which not only is desired but virtually required.
They look at the market from a different point of view. The simplest way to describe it is they view their games as subscription games with a cash shop. It's blatantly screams greed when you read in to the fees and the content you buy.
The free to play model gives the game for free...
If players are playing the game eventually they will buy some stuff and it will often add up to more than the actual subscription costs. When I started playing League of Legends I laughed saying 'wow why would I ever give them money?' I lost count with how much I have given them but it's at least 80-100 in the last year and that's more than some other subscription games.
In a nutshell the Free to Play Model works great because you make players fall in love with the game. If they don't *have* to pay you for important content like quests then they are free to enjoy the game. It's almost like a peer pressure situation because eventually the game will switch from the developers wanting the players to buy stuff to the players looking forward to buying stuff.
It sounds absurd but it works as long as the developers make sure consider exactly what they do and do not sell *nudge please do NOT put those Lockboxes into Neverwinter*
I agree completely. The biggest problem with the Freemium model is not that they want fp2 players to buy items in the shop, but that they try to sell to subscribers too. They also often limit basic gameplay mechanics from fp2 players trying to "entice" them to subscribe. But if these people wanted to subscribe to the game, they would be subscribers limiting their hotbars *I'm looking at you SWTOR* is not going to make them feel like paying for your game. I actually believe a hybrid sub with shop model can work, but the developers need to not be greedy or short on cash when they make the switch. That being said, I believe a Free model works too, I am not convinced that westerners are completely ready for it just yet, not in the form it seems to take in the Asian markets, but I think some form of it can be made that will give the game company ample income and profits while not leaving the player feeling fleeced every time they play.
They will not be able to sell cosmetics for a living. They will adapt more and more vital components to the shop model. I just hope that they will see sense and not ask players to pay for every move they make, instead offering bulk bundles with enough junk items in them to keep people drooling with happiness for at least a week or so. or a month. or timers. whatever.
They will not be able to sell cosmetics for a living. They will adapt more and more vital components to the shop model. I just hope that they will see sense and not ask players to pay for every move they make, instead offering bulk bundles with enough junk items in them to keep people drooling with happiness for at least a week or so. or a month. or timers. whatever.
In free-to-play games, players do not need to put money down before playing. After they become involved enough in the game, players will desire to perform better, to edge out the competition, and to give themselves a unique appearance to stand out from the others. Thus motivated, players will begin to make purchases of game items [...]
(Making Money Off of Free Games Using Micro-transactions to Monetize Free MMOs in Russia,Alisa Chumachenko, Casual Connect )
The analyses you linked up for us are excellent, but they clearly describe a free market situation that does what it has to do: max profit. There is no clear distinction between casual spending and the unblunted attempt to create semi-clinical addiction cases who spend sums of unlimited money during a virtual experience. In juveniles.
I do not want to suggest that NWN is going to be a gambling hell with criminal intention, but that is what i need to prevent from happening. In the future. Can't very well provide evidence for that because it hasn't happened.
edit: therefore i required an option to limit expenses by introducing a bulk payment. This might allow juveniles to get acquainted with a new medium and its currency, while limiting the overall cost. it would also increase the games entertainment value for people who dislike the concept of microtransactions because of the constant hassle :rolleyes:.
Sadly the SWTOR devs did not watch this video despite the fact I posted it there when the fp2 move was announced.
That might have been the final nail in the coffin for them but I really believe the absurd nerfs were what did them in.....don't know what they were thinking...I've always said nerfs are bad.... balance upward...more work? Yep probably...keeps people happy though.
This is my experience with DDO: I log in and do all the missions on the first island. There are absolutely no stumbling blocks and I enjoyed every minute of it without paying for a single thing. I moved on to the second spawning location and although I found several quests right off the docks to do I ended up running out of new quests to play within a day after my arival. Since I was having so much fun I bought a few more quests and a couple of ingedient bags. After a few days of grinding I realized that if I wanted to do anything that wasn't redundant or slow I would have to pay for a subscription or spend a ton of cash on quests to play. It became more and more of a chore to play so I played the game for less than a month before becoming completely disenchanted.
That is Freemium. You can play but you won't in any way advance or at least not in an enjoyable/efficient way without paying for content.
Neverwinter will allow you to play all the Cryptic and all the UGC quests free of charge. You will have access to at least five different classes and races for free, including some that DDO charge for. While we do know XP Boosts will likely exist they shouldn't inhibit player's too much and also exist in DDO.
This is a free to play game. You can make 3,125 different class/race combos confirmed before the release for absolutely free. You will be able to feasibly reach level 60 in every account free of charge, something we all know isn't at all a reality in DDO.
I don't see any issue with having to pay for a few race or class options which are not core races. List of D&D Races.
I'd love to see most of the 4th edition (or earlier edition) races added to this game, but by no means do I think we should be given every single one free of charge...especially for something more unique like Genasi.
9/10 Free Core races and a few free non-core races is more than enough to be free to play. You don't need every race to enjoy a game...and nor would I say most races are that much better than others to the point it could be considered an unfair advantage (and those that are like Illithids I don't believe should be added)
Man, no disrespect intended but I REALLY wish you would STOP saying "Freemium" and "Free-to-Play" are entirely different. Again they are NOT....I see you posted a Wikipedia page on what a "Freemium" is at times I wonder if you do these things to personally annoy me as we have disagreed on the matter in the past.... lets settle this...
=========
"Free-to-play games are similar to freemium, a more general term and a business model in which a product is offered free of charge while a micropayment is charged for users to access premium features and virtual goods."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play
It's in the first paragraph.
=============
Freemium is a business model by which a product or service (typically a digital offering such as software, media, games or web services) is provided free of charge, but a premium is charged for advanced features, functionality, or virtual goods.[1][2] The word "freemium" is a portmanteau combining the two aspects of the business model: "free" and "premium".
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemium
What are virtual goods????!
Virtual goods are non-physical objects purchased for use in online communities or online games. Digital goods, on the other hand, may be a broader category including digital books, music, and movies.[1] Virtual goods have no intrinsic value and are intangible by definition.[2]
Including digital gifts[3] and digital clothing for avatars,[4] virtual goods may be classified as services instead of goods[citation needed] and are usually sold by companies that operate social networks, community sites, or online games.[2] Sales of virtual goods are sometimes referred to as microtransactions,[5] and the games that utilize this model are usually referred to as freemium (free + premium) games.
A large majority of recent sales have been in Asia.[6]
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_goods
============
Essentially DDO & ANY game with micro-transactions are/can be called a FREEMIUM....
Note: I will give you this the above description for the sale of virtual goods in a game under the "Virtual Goods" description does say, "Sales of virtual goods are sometimes referred to as microtransactions,[5] and the games that utilize this model are usually referred to as freemium (free + premium) games."
Now...because something is usually referred to as being something does not make your usage of the two terms as a contradictory business model factual in the slightest bit.
Now on with our regularly scheduled discussions.... again no disrespect intended I just see this usage trending and it's inaccurate and untrue.
EDIT: http://casualconnect.org/mag/summer2012/CGA_F2PGames_Report.pdf
"Freemium: also called Free to play (F2p)
Offering a game, product or service free of charge (such as
software, web services or other) while charging a premium
for advanced features, functionality, or related products
such as virtual goods and services."
Seriously.... I could go on and on...
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Man, no disrespect intended but I REALLY wish you would STOP saying "Freemium" and "Free-to-Play" are entirely different. Again they are NOT....I see you posted a Wikipedia page on what a "Freemium" is at times I wonder if you do these things to personally annoy me as we have disagreed on the matter in the past.... lets settle this...
=========
"Free-to-play games are similar to freemium, a more general term and a business model in which a product is offered free of charge while a micropayment is charged for users to access premium features and virtual goods."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play
It's in the first paragraph.
=============
Freemium is a business model by which a product or service (typically a digital offering such as software, media, games or web services) is provided free of charge, but a premium is charged for advanced features, functionality, or virtual goods.[1][2] The word "freemium" is a portmanteau combining the two aspects of the business model: "free" and "premium".
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemium
What are virtual goods????!
Virtual goods are non-physical objects purchased for use in online communities or online games. Digital goods, on the other hand, may be a broader category including digital books, music, and movies.[1] Virtual goods have no intrinsic value and are intangible by definition.[2]
Including digital gifts[3] and digital clothing for avatars,[4] virtual goods may be classified as services instead of goods[citation needed] and are usually sold by companies that operate social networks, community sites, or online games.[2] Sales of virtual goods are sometimes referred to as microtransactions,[5] and the games that utilize this model are usually referred to as freemium (free + premium) games.
A large majority of recent sales have been in Asia.[6]
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_goods
============
Essentially DDO & ANY game with micro-transactions are/can be called a FREEMIUM....
Note: I will give you this the above description for the sale of virtual goods in a game under the "Virtual Goods" description does say, "Sales of virtual goods are sometimes referred to as microtransactions,[5] and the games that utilize this model are usually referred to as freemium (free + premium) games."
Now...because something is usually referred to as being something does not make your usage of the two terms as a contradictory business model factual in the slightest bit.
Now on with our regularly scheduled discussions.... again no disrespect intended I just see this usage trending and it's inaccurate and untrue.
EDIT: http://casualconnect.org/mag/summer2012/CGA_F2PGames_Report.pdf
"Freemium: also called Free to play (F2p)
Offering a game, product or service free of charge (such as
software, web services or other) while charging a premium
for advanced features, functionality, or related products
such as virtual goods and services."
Seriously.... I could go on and on...
(BTW excellent use including the word portmanteau; I don't often have to look up definitions and it was a refreshing change from the term "compound word" even if from the Wiki)
First off I will ask that very last definition not be used as the "standard" what is done since The Casual Games Association is an organization paid for by corporate people who make games the same way I would ask the people who claim cigarettes can't be bad can't use an organization showing what the definition means paid by a group that makes the product.
If we're going for standards in a authoritative body of classification, I'd ask that it be some group that does not benefit from the decisions made like Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers does with Internet Assignment of Domain suffixes.
I'll try not to go on and on and also try to follow my own request and make sure research comes from an openly discussed group, not a closed group that might have its own self-interests. However, if I miss a group that does this, please point it out and I'll pull that research. Due to the length, I'll start this on another post, and that itself may take two more posts.
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
Right or wrong aside, the question is if officially and/or socially speaking: are the terms Free to Play (herefore it shall be known as F2P) and Freemium the same?
Freemium on Mobile
The Freemium business model has been around for a few years in the gaming world, but it really took off when Apple enabled what is known as “in-app purchasing” for their App Store apps, hereafter referred to as IAP. Using IAP, developers can give a game away for free on the app store and then charge players from within the game itself for “premium” content, skipping the app store altogether.
The popularity this business model enjoys grew out of unfortunately high numbers for app piracy. There are a large number of pirated iOS apps available for jailbroken devices, though that number is even higher for Android, given that its open, almost PC-like design makes it so that no jailbreaking is required to play pirated apps. The numbers are disputed in some cases, but no one seems to be questioning that piracy, overall, is indeed a problem. With free-to-play titles, additional paid content is locked absolutely to an exchange between the app and the app store so that even if a free-to-play app is pirated, it won’t do players much good without the IAP connection. While some clever hackers have found ways around this, IAP is still turning out to be a better revenue source for game developers than simply selling the app as a whole.
Some reviewers and academics toss the words around as they are interchangeable as that last librarypoint.org article showed, as does this European report.
However, EA has been dabbling in free-to-play for quite some time now ....There have been a number of freemium modeled free-to-play games that EA has launched throughout the years.
The main issue I have when people ask me whether a game is free or not is that I am not sure what they like to do. Granted, I can usually be pretty safe in assuming that they like to kill monsters and hunt after killer loot, but when I stop to think about it, players really do like to participate in a variety of activities in any MMO. There's socializing, crafting, roleplaying, exploring and a host of other title-specific activities like dance contests or treasure hunting. This is why we have to take each game that claims to be free-to-play and look at its specific "main" activities. If the game allows players to participate in those game-specific mainstream activities for free, then it is a free-to-play game. Perfect World or Illyriad are free-to-play games.
Already this is getting confusing, and it's starting to sound a bit like a scientific paper. As I noted before, though, it's important to be able to let people know what to expect, financially, when they are thinking about trying a new game. Let's soldier on.
Freemium, unlimited trial or velvet rope model games are games that allow players to play to a point in the main storyline or bulk of content, but then the games ask for some form of payment before letting the players move on. In other words, at some early point, players will hit a toll gate. Sometimes, in a game like Ryzom for example, players will pay not early on but somewhere closer to halfway. Still, it's "pay the toll or don't go any further." Wizard101 and Free Realms are freemium games.
Is there a problem with a gray area? Oh like you wouldn't believe!
Now we get into the gray areas. These are the games that sell content or "tiers" of membership. Technically they might not be blocking a player from level A to level Z, but they are offering so much more to a paying player that many might see it as forced payment. EverQuest II and Dungeons and Dragons Online, for example, seem to thrive on a model based on basic free access that is tinged with eventual subscription. Extra packs of content, different races or other cash-shop-only content definitely blurs the lines for some people. With freemiumish games, we have to ask whether players can still participate in the majority of content -- as in developer-created and hosted content -- for free....
Thanks to the popularity of Western takes on free-to-play like LotRO, EQ2X and Free Realms, I now run the risk of not knowing what playing a game might entail for players' pocketbooks. Sometimes I am not clear on the nuances of a game's particular payment system simply because I have not played to the point at which payment is absolutely needed. That's why I value the input of my readers so much, and other readers should help each other out with information.
If this is TL;DR here is the summary:
So in the end, I am still relatively confused. Basically let's sum it up as this:
1) Free-to-play games allow you to download, play and grow in their worlds without any form of payment required at any point. Now, if you want to grow faster or look cooler... then you'll pay. Experience potions, healing salves or nice-looking armor are the staples of the free-to-play payment plan. At least you will know that you can reach the "end" of the game for free, even if it is slower than some players.
2) Freemium, unlimited trial or velvet rope games will force payment on you at some point. Granted, in a game like Wizard101, you can consider housing, gardening or minigames as free content and be perfectly happy becoming a master at those things. However, if you play through the main storyline or participate in the main selling point of the game, you will have to pay to get to the end.
I hate to use such broad terms for so many games. This is a market of evolving payment models. There is definitely some sneakiness happening in the name of both free-to-play and freemium, so we as consumers need to send a very strong message. That means that next time you ask me for a recommendation for a "free" game, you need to assume that I have no idea what you like to do in a game and what you consider "free." It is also important to remember that playing five, six or even a dozen games from either payment model does not even make a dent in the sheer number of titles out there. So keep exploring, and remember that there are examples of good and bad on both sides.
As mentioned above, this gets rather complicated by the question if the so-called hybrid vs the "ground up no subscription game" can use these terms equally or if one or the other always must be used when one model is specifically addressed?
Some of the MMOs offered on Steam that are listed as “Free to Play” are Star Trek Online, DC Universe Online, and Dungeons and Dragons Online. Although these games can be played for free, the free version of the game typically offers only a very restricted version of the game experience. The player is strongly encouraged to unlock various features of the game, either by buying access to these features off of Steam or by paying the dreaded monthly access fee. Essentially, all that “Free to Play” accomplishes in making the MMO “free” is eliminating the payment for the retail version of the game and allowing the player a different way of paying the fee (lump sum versus monthly fee). The MMO is still designed to be a “pay to play” or at least “pay to play well” genre in most cases.
The "modern use of former subscription only games to a free to play with subscription and premium a la carte options" such as DDO, STO, CO, and now SW:TOR (which still offers a tiering for people who subscribe) constitutes this group example (BTW, you get NO customer support unless you subscribe to SW:TOR so BOOO to them for that!) If a game never was/is a subscription, could it be considered Freemium? Can a game that only offers a free to play OPTION be still considered Free to Play in its definition? Is SW:TOR different from WoW in either of these concerns? Etc.
[Continued in next post]
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
Quite bluntly, I don't trust wikis for academic clarifications because anybody can enter anything and not show research proof, just some published information to satisfy "citation needed." But if I were somehow able to accept the non-footnoted info on Free to Play in a Wiki it would be
(Note this is the ONLY time the word "freemium" is used in the entire article.)
and under Concept
Some games have both a free version, and a pay-to-play version that offers the full version of the game and all available updates. Free-to-play games with pay-to-play components utilize the freebie marketing technique to draw in a user base with this advanced type of game demo. The term "free-to-play" is frequently heard in the context of MMOs. In comparison, the term "forever free-to-play game" (FF2P) is used to distinguish MMOGs that promise to never charge a subscription fee from those that are currently free-to-play, but may become pay-to-play in the future. It applies only to online games, because while a conventional single-playerfreeware game becomes free forever as soon as it is downloaded to the player's hard drive, a free online game may start charging a fee and instantly convert into a pay-to-play game.
Many game developers keep a free-to-play version available so people can try the game before paying the membership costs. It also helps attract more players to the game. Other developers generate revenue by selling in-game items that enhance the player's in-game experience. In-game items can be purely cosmetic (vanity items), enhance the power of the player (power items), or accelerate progression speed (booster items). A common technique used by developers of these games is for the items purchased to have a time limit; after this expires, the item must be repurchased before use can continue. In-game advertising is another method that can be used by game developers to supplement income lost from providing a game for free.
So technically, the "shareware before subscription" method option used here, while not mentioned, is the current embodiment of WoW's 20 levels before you must subscribe, but not AFTER you subscribe which it then meets a Pay to Play (herefore it shall be known as P2P) model. That is one F2P so called "definition." Is this the current "intent" of the word in the persistent use of our current software though is no, and why once again I shudder to start "interpreting" the rule vs intent using wikis.
While I (for equal non-trusting time) also checked "freemium's" wiki suggesting it was the "shareware" update back in the late 80's or
The business model has probably been in use for software since the 1980s, particularly in the form of a free time- or feature-limited ('lite') version, often given away on a floppy disk or CD-ROM, to promote a paid-for full version. The model is particularly suited to software as the manufacturing cost is negligible, so – as long as significant cannibalization is avoided – little is lost by giving it away for free.
then got a new meaning in
...a 2006 blog post by venture capitalist Fred Wilson summarizing the model:[3]
Give your service away for free, possibly ad supported but maybe not, acquire a lot of customers very efficiently through word of mouth, referral networks, organic search marketing, etc., then offer premium priced value added services or an enhanced version of your service to your customer base.
Jarid Lukin of Alacra then suggested the term "freemium" for this model.[3]
In 2009, Chris Anderson published the book Free, which examines the popularity of this business model. As well as for traditional software and services, it is now also often used by Web 2.0 and open source companies.[4]
The freemium model is closely related to tiered services. It has become a highly popular modelI][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"]citation needed[/URL][/I, with notable examples including LinkedIn[5], Badoo,[6] and in the form of a "soft" paywall, such as those employed by The New York Times,[7] and by Press+.[8] A freemium model is sometimes used to build a consumer base when the marginal cost of producing extra units is low.
So somehow even if I were to accept using these as "factual" I can say the CONCEPT is that Free to play seems to be a free service that allows premium components but Freemium charges for outright advances features itself including offering a possible tiered level. This "Free to play in popular lexicon" seems to suggest "Charging for cosmetic items sometimes character items or classes but not story content." "Freemium in popular lexicon" seems to suggest "free but subscription options offered for advanced features" as well as "free but subscription options offered for advanced features or pay a la carte' or each individual component which may include story/character content."
So based on this and the previous post, what's the answer?
As we've seen, users will define this, and until we have some third party making impartial standards, it's unlikely we can come to a final consenses academicly (or internally unless Cryptic makes set standards what it defines as "Free to Play" and "Freemium" and defines its individual games why as such with examples for each.)
Comments
I honestly wouldn't even count those. They were a once over deal and really pitiful compared to what you could buy. Better than nothing but you could hardly afford to buy anything with them if memory serves.
I'm merely expressing the way I felt playing the game and that's not out of proportion, it's an opinion. I felt smothered and harrassed to spend money on the game and the first few times I did just because of my past enjoyment of the game. If your opinion varies, it varies, but note too that I only played post-freemium. Many players who enjoyed DDO talk highly of it when it was subscription only and often state how far downhill it went after the freemium switch. Perhaps your point of view is skewed by not first experiencing the game as a freemium user.
In any case there's a difference between feeling the desire to spend for some additional options and the desire to spend to advance. I absolutely got to level 12 without an issue and then I felt like I hit a wall...and that's the point when I stopped having fun.
I don't need every race to have fun...and 5 bucks to enjoy a race I'm interested in isn't too big of a deal to me, but on the other side of the coin I don't like being put into a position where I *have* to pay in order to continue to level a character at a decent/enjoyable rate.
And that is the difference between Free to Play and Freemium.
A forgotten Realms Core Race list would be highly beneficial. Post it or link it if you could
I tried to find one but a generalized D&D Player Race list one wiki was all I could find.
Basically TP was a one time grind. You could only achieve a set value of free items.
When you look at other Cryptic Games which are Freemium or other true Free to Play Games you're not given a static value of cash to spend per account but rather rewarded for playing and enjoying the game. This is what sets the big difference between Freemium and Free to Play because while I am absolutely endorsing Cryptic setting fees to unlock additional races I am ONLY doing so with the knowledge we can use store credit in order to purchase them...
In theory if Cryptic released an end result of 20 Pay to Play Races and Classes you could still get every one of them without spending a cent if you put the time into the game to earn the store credit. This can't be said of DDO. If you really want the new races right as they are released go buy them, support the game. Otherwise use the store credit.
This is exactly how League of Legends operates. Cosmetics and Reward Boosts have to be purchased with money but any new champion (race/class) can be purchased with store credit. In Theory you could play long enough to earn every single champion and play thousands of hours without spending a single cent.
That's how NW will be. This isn't going to be a Freemium DDO game where they give you a small taste and anything else you have to buy in order to advance.
No disrespect but your memories are faulty and you are spreading false information, I have some guildies who have unlocked all the packs via favor grinding. It seems quite clear to me you guys didn't know what you were doing and didn't look for any favor farming guides. As such you are putting things out of proportion even if it's because you are relying on faulty memories and lack of real info.
I've been playing DDO as a premium player since it went f2p and I do KNOW what I am talking about.
I dunno were you are getting your info but TP is NOT a one time grind, you can earn as much of it as you want. The first time you get TP on a server you get a bonus amount but you can continue to get TP. I do it often, easy way to do it after the first time bonus is to grind 100 favor get your 25 tp delete toon grind out another 25 tp with new toon so on and so forth, is very fast too if you have a high level toon you can run with to smash thru the quests.
You can get every single item in DDO and not give turbine a cent if you wanted, though now that would be a big grind considering some of the new cosmetic pets cost as much as adv pack.
Here is a Link to favor grinding. Many people just grind out like say 1k favor on each server for the one time bonus then choose their main server and play there and 100 favor farm that server for more. Depends on how much time you want to put into it. Best thing is to at least buy tp once (the lowest amount) to get rid of some of the stupid restrictions.
The quest I run for my 100 favor runs. They are all f2p quests, name of quest, total favor and where it is. To get total favor you must run it on elite.
1) Heyton's Rest 6 korthos
2) Storehouse Secret 6 korthos
3) Cannith Crystal 6 korthos
4) Collaborator 12 korthos
5) Bringing The Light 6 harbor-leaky dinghy
6) Information Is Key 12 harbor-leaky dinghy
7) Haverdasher 6 harbor
8) Durk's Secret 12 harbor
9) Garrison's Pack 12 harbor
10) The Lost Tome 9 harbor
11) Kobolds new ringleader 12 harbor
12) Butcher's Path 12 harbor
13) the sunken sewer 9 marketplace
14) swiped signet 12 marketplace
Total favor in all(elite) = 132
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
The reason DDO is not regarded true f2p is because you cannot have one character and take it all the way to end. You have to play multiple characters on multiple servers to get TP points. There are simply many points where you run out of f2p content and you have to stop that character and start with other character on other server and use the TP points to buy content.
And you can only buy specific content - if you make a mistake, you are basically stuck with making characters and deleting them running same content again and again.
NW will be f2p because you do not have to grind for content like that with different characters. Apart from the fact that your initial character can never be your main character due to min-max enviornment of DDO. You need 32point build for any decent epic gameplay and your first character is always 28point build unless you buy it. Basically selling power in a high min-max environment.
The hybrid of dilitium in STO (an aspect of PLEX in EVE Online) is only appealing since it allows those who do not have the money to spend on the game to purchase Zen and aquire vanity items or content they desire. Effectively having someone else pay for their experience. I personally have been very poor at times and just having internet access was a luxury. Being able to grind for game store currency is about the only grind aspect that appealed to me.
Having a further hybrid of such would yield better result, in my opinion. Rather than grinding the same mission over and over, having level presets that rank with your character would be better. For example, STO Lieutenant missions could have their ranking counterpart in Lieutenant Commander, Commander, etc. that grant dilitium rather than xp. Each ranking level would have harder enemies and more complex goals to achieve to complete.
To follow along in this example, the last series I had fun with was "The 2800" Taking the first mission and adding in more complex interactions with the diplomats would be one way to expand upon and challenge players. Making the route to escourt the diplomats more complex and indirect would also. The ship breakout should have just been the first wave right after beaming out, then add in the successive waves and resque of ships as part of advanced play. This adds in replayability without turning it into a grind, like say mining or academy events. I'm not saying that they don't have a place. They do. Just not such a prominent one.
Interesting link....I sort of think the article is grasping at straws to be honest. I could be wrong I mean TL2 is an excellent game but it's not F2P though.... Blacklight seemed like a great game but FULL of hacking... had to quit. All the rest of PW's games to be totally honest just stink to no end. Maybe an Asian audience is into what they have to offer for a variety of reasons but I haven't run into many Americans that are like DUDE YOU GOTTA PLAY Battle of the Immortals!!! Held my attention for about 2 weeks when I was bored and I thought it was mediocre at best.
EA? LOL WTF game do they have that was developed as F2P that's good? Warhammer didn't start as F2P when it dumped due to well... sucking end game the last ditch effort was to go F2P. How about other games with high quality graphics? Lets say SWTOR? Game was pretty good till they started to "balance" for pvp... game ruined people left... yep went F2P.
The Best F2P games I've played are either retail games that flopped because either 1. The devs were mentally challenged 2. The business side of the company FORCED the devs to do thing that made them appear mentally challenged. 3. The games are a virtual hackers paradise. The hackers could care less if they get banned...a new account with no trace to the hacker can be created and hacks applied within 5 minutes of the ban. We have seen this in I think EVERY SINGLE FPS out there... easy to spot in an fps....well easy to spot in most games really... the little guy that runs a thousand mph in circles around you hacking away and zips off after your dead like the guy is Roadrunner in some Warner Bros. cartoon.
Maybe this HAMSTER works in China sure isn't very impressive here imo. Long way to go. I keep hoping for a good title and really the only one I really found that was fun and challenging so far has been League of Legends which isn't really the sort of game I like .... but I have to admit it's was entertaining and I dumped a few bucks into it even though I was a marginal player at best. What was their secret? Well I think it worked where the other games didn't....it's FUN.... a concept I think a lot of companies forgot about.
The only thing in LOL you couldn't get by just playing were cosmetic skins and THAT's IT! At least that's all I saw when I was playing.
I have hope for NW because it's a great concept and the only games I really want to play are games at least somewhat based on CRPGs....how to wreck it? Get greedy. Companies need to quit trying to be WOW and do their own thing ffs.
In the end and I really believe this....at best at this point in the MMORPG F2P arena I'd say any large scale game probably has about a 70% chance of complete failure within 2 years of release. The highest probability of success are PVP F2P games with massive end game zones that challenge players in different ways...face paced... nerve wracking.... skill testing reflex games.... yep like LOL.
I read down a few articles while writing this and someone called RaiderZ a AAA game? please... Blacklight could have been and maybe COULD be except for the invasion of hackers...same with AVA... fun game...major hacks....etc etc etc the list is as long as the list of F2P FPS...
Anyway, I hope NW works...I want it to work...I have MAJOR doubts just because of the F2P model...again due to greed, and lack of a subscription which is nothing but an invite for hackers imo...I think they would be better off putting out a demo similar to the model Tera used, just charge 10 - 15 usd for a digital copy and STILL keep an in game store with vanity items of all types. Will it work? Yep.... if the game doesn't suck. People blame a lack of ROI on everything it seems like except that the game SUCKED! That's one of the biggest problems with the gaming industry. Everyone involved in the production from investment on fall into a category with something in common...they are working, investing, and even the playing fan boi... the commonality is they all believe in the product with ALL their little hearts....problem is if it sucks... it sucks period. If you have a good product it doesn't matter what business model you use....there are not enough GREAT games out there to kill competition of other GREAT games... people might think so but they are only fooling themselves....funny part is how they can't believe they failed. meh anyway
Yeah so I hope NW does do well.... I'd rather pay 20 - 30 for a game and an industry low monthly fee...hell do that and still have a vanity store...seriously? You got a good game? THAT would work too guaranteed.
If attempting to invite players without an initial fee, then give them the option to pay for when they decide to stay. Make them pay for online time. Whatever, just stop annoying people with perpetual cash stops.
I would liken a cash shop more to the sale of the CD's of the Ring Cycle or other Wagner memorabilia in the lobby than to on stage advertising. Regardless, we know NW is f2p and we know it is going to have a cash shop, if that's a deal break for you I'm sorry. What we don't know and what I think is the more important thing to "feedback" to the devs and company is what you are willing to pay for in said cash shop.
NEEVEEEEEER
NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER
Players are willing to deal with them for the time being but any research on the subject you can find will without a doubt show how bad the freemium model is.
Freemium has every issue a free to play cash shop game has with the added side effect of the demo state. If you look at other subscription games which also has a free version, while the free versions will have plenty of people come and play, the retention rates for those players are infinitely low. When the free plateau is reached and players are given the ultimate option to spend money on a subscription or simply buy to unlock content it's a true point of disenchantment. Most players which reach the peak of the free challenge plateau will choose to walk away from the game rather than pay a subscription or content fee.
The difference between a Freemium Model and the Free to Play Model that NW will incorporate is that paying nothing won't limit your ability to advance. Your game rewards and your in game power will not be affected by how much money you spend on the game so the only thing which will make you any slower at advancing in the game would be purchased experience bonuses.
Now for all the bluster of cash shops being a breaking point for you, I'm sorry to say but this *is* the future of the industry. Subscriptions will die off as they already have been doing for some time now. It's up to the developers to realize it's outright wrong to sell power in the game but there's no reason you should complain about visual upgrades or optional unlocks. Don't buy them for your kids and tell them why you feel the way you do by all means but understand at this point you're unlikely to be able to buy even a third the games on the market without dealing with some form of cash shop and that ratio is getting less every year.
Virtually every game in production which aims for player retention now has some form of cash shop which, if done correctly, can provide a much better game for both the free players and the people who like to waste cash on useless content like appearance changes. The revenue from cash shops have, in most cases, shown to be even more profitable than subscription based games with few of the issues which plague the Freemium Games.
If you truly want to see just how bad off the state of affairs are on subscription based games I invite you to look up the plague of problems Star Wars: The Old Republic had. I won't lie and claim to be an expert but what I do know is that...
1) Throughout the production time the developers stated that it would be a subscription only game and they absolutely would not go Freemium.
2) Within two to three months the subscriptions were so limited the developers switched to a Freemium Business Model
And honestly I hate the Freemium Model with a passion. It's literally an ultimatum: pay the sub fee or pay 10x as much for content.
But if having a cash shop is a deal breaker, you won't find an MMO in a couple of more years without one. I guarantee you that.
i can see them charge 100e for a car in CO and thats, understandably, more revenue. I can also see them sell crappy and useless items that look really interesting BEFORE you buy them etc. (eg "gives you a chance to win a car" turns out not have a win percentage of below 0.01).
if freemium model means you can get a flatrate on all that, i want one.
about starwars: bioware made a mess of a beautiful game, it had no endgame. there was no grouping tool whatsoever. you had to wait in line for the few daily dungeons and it was neigh impossible to get inside. that why it failed. going ftp did nothing to change that. nobody ever objected to playing a fee, they just didnt like the game. period.
also, you cant compare 90% of newly free games to a "quality" title like NWN. Look at customers and decide wether they are a) just popping by on a holiday b) genuinly interested in a new pastime or c) dedicated gamers with a passion for the genre. The a) kind will just log off and try something else if you cough at them. b) will probably not want to pay more than a percentage of the income and c) will do as you say if it gets them into the game. if you want to make a game that caters to a), you cant be serious. you got to pull a fish if you want to cook dinner.
Readhere
Already you're using a straw man argument based off of a flawed opinion. It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what everybody thinks as a whole. Did you research how this works even if in a non-academic level like here? This makes a serious amount of money.
I kow many of you are relatively new or lurking, but I already had this discussion with F2P games and revenue and multiple articles showing how the "cosmetics" purchase often performed better than the subscription models everybody insisted was needed even if "Freemium" seven months ago. I listed this here.
I even took the time and combed through the system with a not fully easy to use search function on an archived post to do this. So if there is to be any contrasting reply from anybody about this, I'd appreciate at least some time and research into it. Thank you.
Sadly the SWTOR devs did not watch this video despite the fact I posted it there when the fp2 move was announced.
Honestly I don't know I didn't follow the game, but I've heard mixed reivews about its success so I wouldn't be surprised.
I think the biggest problem with most Western f2p models is that not only were they based on the hybrid-freemium idea, but they failed to monetize things realistically. Plus the shift was often down when the game was already in financial trouble rather than a as a move to keep up with the industry. Proactive actions are always more successful than reactive, when it comes to things like this.
Very true, and that was my point. There are maybe one or two MMO's which are purely subscription based at this point in time because the Freemium Model has been far more successful than a subscription model. The big problem with Freemium though is that they charge for content which not only is desired but virtually required.
They look at the market from a different point of view. The simplest way to describe it is they view their games as subscription games with a cash shop. It's blatantly screams greed when you read in to the fees and the content you buy.
The free to play model gives the game for free...
If players are playing the game eventually they will buy some stuff and it will often add up to more than the actual subscription costs. When I started playing League of Legends I laughed saying 'wow why would I ever give them money?' I lost count with how much I have given them but it's at least 80-100 in the last year and that's more than some other subscription games.
In a nutshell the Free to Play Model works great because you make players fall in love with the game. If they don't *have* to pay you for important content like quests then they are free to enjoy the game. It's almost like a peer pressure situation because eventually the game will switch from the developers wanting the players to buy stuff to the players looking forward to buying stuff.
It sounds absurd but it works as long as the developers make sure consider exactly what they do and do not sell *nudge please do NOT put those Lockboxes into Neverwinter*
I agree completely. The biggest problem with the Freemium model is not that they want fp2 players to buy items in the shop, but that they try to sell to subscribers too. They also often limit basic gameplay mechanics from fp2 players trying to "entice" them to subscribe. But if these people wanted to subscribe to the game, they would be subscribers limiting their hotbars *I'm looking at you SWTOR* is not going to make them feel like paying for your game. I actually believe a hybrid sub with shop model can work, but the developers need to not be greedy or short on cash when they make the switch. That being said, I believe a Free model works too, I am not convinced that westerners are completely ready for it just yet, not in the form it seems to take in the Asian markets, but I think some form of it can be made that will give the game company ample income and profits while not leaving the player feeling fleeced every time they play.
Data or it never happened.
The analyses you linked up for us are excellent, but they clearly describe a free market situation that does what it has to do: max profit. There is no clear distinction between casual spending and the unblunted attempt to create semi-clinical addiction cases who spend sums of unlimited money during a virtual experience. In juveniles.
I do not want to suggest that NWN is going to be a gambling hell with criminal intention, but that is what i need to prevent from happening. In the future. Can't very well provide evidence for that because it hasn't happened.
edit: therefore i required an option to limit expenses by introducing a bulk payment. This might allow juveniles to get acquainted with a new medium and its currency, while limiting the overall cost. it would also increase the games entertainment value for people who dislike the concept of microtransactions because of the constant hassle :rolleyes:.
That might have been the final nail in the coffin for them but I really believe the absurd nerfs were what did them in.....don't know what they were thinking...I've always said nerfs are bad.... balance upward...more work? Yep probably...keeps people happy though.
Man, no disrespect intended but I REALLY wish you would STOP saying "Freemium" and "Free-to-Play" are entirely different. Again they are NOT....I see you posted a Wikipedia page on what a "Freemium" is at times I wonder if you do these things to personally annoy me as we have disagreed on the matter in the past.... lets settle this...
=========
"Free-to-play games are similar to freemium, a more general term and a business model in which a product is offered free of charge while a micropayment is charged for users to access premium features and virtual goods."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play
It's in the first paragraph.
=============
Freemium is a business model by which a product or service (typically a digital offering such as software, media, games or web services) is provided free of charge, but a premium is charged for advanced features, functionality, or virtual goods.[1][2] The word "freemium" is a portmanteau combining the two aspects of the business model: "free" and "premium".
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemium
What are virtual goods????!
Virtual goods are non-physical objects purchased for use in online communities or online games. Digital goods, on the other hand, may be a broader category including digital books, music, and movies.[1] Virtual goods have no intrinsic value and are intangible by definition.[2]
Including digital gifts[3] and digital clothing for avatars,[4] virtual goods may be classified as services instead of goods[citation needed] and are usually sold by companies that operate social networks, community sites, or online games.[2] Sales of virtual goods are sometimes referred to as microtransactions,[5] and the games that utilize this model are usually referred to as freemium (free + premium) games.
A large majority of recent sales have been in Asia.[6]
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_goods
============
Essentially DDO & ANY game with micro-transactions are/can be called a FREEMIUM....
Note: I will give you this the above description for the sale of virtual goods in a game under the "Virtual Goods" description does say, "Sales of virtual goods are sometimes referred to as microtransactions,[5] and the games that utilize this model are usually referred to as freemium (free + premium) games."
Now...because something is usually referred to as being something does not make your usage of the two terms as a contradictory business model factual in the slightest bit.
Now on with our regularly scheduled discussions.... again no disrespect intended I just see this usage trending and it's inaccurate and untrue.
EDIT: http://casualconnect.org/mag/summer2012/CGA_F2PGames_Report.pdf
"Freemium: also called Free to play (F2p)
Offering a game, product or service free of charge (such as
software, web services or other) while charging a premium
for advanced features, functionality, or related products
such as virtual goods and services."
Seriously.... I could go on and on...
(BTW excellent use including the word portmanteau; I don't often have to look up definitions and it was a refreshing change from the term "compound word" even if from the Wiki)
First off I will ask that very last definition not be used as the "standard" what is done since The Casual Games Association is an organization paid for by corporate people who make games the same way I would ask the people who claim cigarettes can't be bad can't use an organization showing what the definition means paid by a group that makes the product.
If we're going for standards in a authoritative body of classification, I'd ask that it be some group that does not benefit from the decisions made like Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers does with Internet Assignment of Domain suffixes.
I'll try not to go on and on and also try to follow my own request and make sure research comes from an openly discussed group, not a closed group that might have its own self-interests. However, if I miss a group that does this, please point it out and I'll pull that research. Due to the length, I'll start this on another post, and that itself may take two more posts.
The problem is there is no clarity. Based on the Article "The Hidden Cost of Freemium," freemium was actually used in concept for Mobile devices to prevent piracy first before popularized today in computer gaming:
Some reviewers and academics toss the words around as they are interchangeable as that last librarypoint.org article showed, as does this European report.
Others use it in that "Freemium" is a category under the "Free to Play Unbrella"
Then we have the article from a gaming review site writer attempted to show: Massively by Joystiq's article of Free to Play vs Freemium
Is there a problem with a gray area? Oh like you wouldn't believe!
If this is TL;DR here is the summary:
As mentioned above, this gets rather complicated by the question if the so-called hybrid vs the "ground up no subscription game" can use these terms equally or if one or the other always must be used when one model is specifically addressed?
From "The Hidden Cost of Freemium" again:
The "modern use of former subscription only games to a free to play with subscription and premium a la carte options" such as DDO, STO, CO, and now SW:TOR (which still offers a tiering for people who subscribe) constitutes this group example (BTW, you get NO customer support unless you subscribe to SW:TOR so BOOO to them for that!) If a game never was/is a subscription, could it be considered Freemium? Can a game that only offers a free to play OPTION be still considered Free to Play in its definition? Is SW:TOR different from WoW in either of these concerns? Etc.
[Continued in next post]
(Note this is the ONLY time the word "freemium" is used in the entire article.)
and under Concept
So technically, the "shareware before subscription" method option used here, while not mentioned, is the current embodiment of WoW's 20 levels before you must subscribe, but not AFTER you subscribe which it then meets a Pay to Play (herefore it shall be known as P2P) model. That is one F2P so called "definition." Is this the current "intent" of the word in the persistent use of our current software though is no, and why once again I shudder to start "interpreting" the rule vs intent using wikis.
While I (for equal non-trusting time) also checked "freemium's" wiki suggesting it was the "shareware" update back in the late 80's or
then got a new meaning in
So somehow even if I were to accept using these as "factual" I can say the CONCEPT is that Free to play seems to be a free service that allows premium components but Freemium charges for outright advances features itself including offering a possible tiered level. This "Free to play in popular lexicon" seems to suggest "Charging for cosmetic items sometimes character items or classes but not story content." "Freemium in popular lexicon" seems to suggest "free but subscription options offered for advanced features" as well as "free but subscription options offered for advanced features or pay a la carte' or each individual component which may include story/character content."
So based on this and the previous post, what's the answer?
As we've seen, users will define this, and until we have some third party making impartial standards, it's unlikely we can come to a final consenses academicly (or internally unless Cryptic makes set standards what it defines as "Free to Play" and "Freemium" and defines its individual games why as such with examples for each.)