I was a big fan of the rules introduced to 3.5 in the Savage Species book. I really enjoyed playing a mummy character and created by own version of the Harssaf to be a playable race.
Likelyhood that either of these will show up at launch: 0%.
Likelyhood that either of these will EVER show up as a playable race: 0%.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I was a big fan of the rules introduced to 3.5 in the Savage Species book. I really enjoyed playing a mummy character and created by own version of the Harssaf to be a playable race.
Likelyhood that either of these will show up at launch: 0%.
Likelyhood that either of these will EVER show up as a playable race: 0%.
Ability to look like a bad MasterCard commercial: Priceless.
There are some things you cannot request. For all other things that get moved to the Zen Store, there's MasterCard.
neowolfenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 68
edited November 2012
Im not overly fond of the fact they have gone "Elf" and then "Drow" as for those of us familiar with the Forgotten Realms we know that there is no single Elf species.. but a number of subraces (Moon, Sun, Green, Wild etc..) which have different attribute modifiers and that Drow although more substantially different that the other subtypes is STILL a subtype of elf not an entirely different species.
Likewise there is no single Dwarf or Gnome or Halfling but again many different subtypes with different attribute modifiers and physical appearances etc..
So I hope they eventually get around to adding all the other subraces rather than just standardise them in a watered down fashion as part of the joy of the Forgotten Realms is the racial diversity available and the different natures of them.
I also hope Eladrin are in for launch and would also like to see Half Dragons
Ser Alathor Crownguard, Cwelenas Alenuath, Dwarin Stonefist, Danaerys Hellborn
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Im not overly fond of the fact they have gone "Elf" and then "Drow" as for those of us familiar with the Forgotten Realms we know that there is no single Elf species.. but a number of subraces (Moon, Sun, Green, Wild etc..) which have different attribute modifiers and that Drow although more substantially different that the other subtypes is STILL a subtype of elf not an entirely different species.
Likewise there is no single Dwarf or Gnome or Halfling but again many different subtypes with different attribute modifiers and physical appearances etc..
So I hope they eventually get around to adding all the other subraces rather than just standardise them in a watered down fashion as part of the joy of the Forgotten Realms is the racial diversity available and the different natures of them.
I also hope Eladrin are in for launch and would also like to see Half Dragons
Short answer: They haven't decided to release this yet, read the quote below for their response.
Longer Answer:
Well, not to nitpick, but are you checking to see which sub-races are going to which sylvan classes in this? After all, a moon elf actually would go to the Eladrin not to ever be confused with the wild elf sub-race of the elven non-Eladrin race. As they have released the elf, one could only expect the natural world options then unless they announce the Eladrin race.
Actually, a lot of the "differences" in the pnp game version are mechanical, while the cultural sub-races difference is a powerful point when it comes to lore (I do own the Neverwinter campaign setting book and have some familiarity with some novels, but have not read any 4E era novels yet.)
I would support a cultural choice like choosing backgrounds in selecting sub races, but would not support an immediate sub-race game-play update (which was made clear they have not released this in-game many months ago
Will there be Sub-Races
At this time, Sub-Races are not decided, see the following compiled replies from the Developer Questions thread Questions for StormShade (devs):
Quote:
5. Do you plan subraces system that was introduced in Neverwinter Campaign Setting?
I'm not familiar with that system, can you explain it to me a little?
Got it. I don't have a solid answer for that right now. However, I'm pretty sure we'll be talking more about character customization and creations as we get closer to release.
(Note: This answer will be updated as we receive new information.)
) due to any delay from testing requirements. I would support a sub race release for game play later if it could be phased in without delaying the game's post-launch schedule of course.
Im not overly fond of the fact they have gone "Elf" and then "Drow" as for those of us familiar with the Forgotten Realms we know that there is no single Elf species.. but a number of subraces (Moon, Sun, Green, Wild etc..) which have different attribute modifiers and that Drow although more substantially different that the other subtypes is STILL a subtype of elf not an entirely different species.
Likewise there is no single Dwarf or Gnome or Halfling but again many different subtypes with different attribute modifiers and physical appearances etc..
So I hope they eventually get around to adding all the other subraces rather than just standardise them in a watered down fashion as part of the joy of the Forgotten Realms is the racial diversity available and the different natures of them.
I also hope Eladrin are in for launch and would also like to see Half Dragons
I do agree mostly, but recall that in Neverwinter Nights, I & II, we were given Elf as a racial selection. Once you chose Elf, you were then given the option to choose which sub-race... since Cryptic has not confirmed/denied, or even spoke on the sub-race topic much at all, we can only wait and see.
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neowolfenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 68
Actually, a lot of the "differences" in the pnp game version are mechanical, while the cultural sub-races difference is a powerful point when it comes to lore (I do own the Neverwinter campaign setting book and have some familiarity with some novels, but have not read any 4E era novels yet.)
You are right that a lot of the differences are purely mechanical in the PnP (which ive been playing for 30+ years) but not solely mechanical. The races are different culturally, socially, physically and linguistically now admitedly these aren't the best things to try and represent in an MMO from a players stand point beyond mechanics and appearance but from a story perspective Dev side it is very much something they can and should be putting across or else it will dilute the canon.
With regard to the whole Eladrin thing.. well they are purely a 4e thing before 4e they were nothing to do with elves (for my tastes the only real successor to 3.5 was Pathfinder not 4e, which was purely designed to help Wizards sell more miniatures but thats a separate issue and not really relevant here lol).
I hope you are right that suhbrace is represented in some fashion though as it should be.
Ser Alathor Crownguard, Cwelenas Alenuath, Dwarin Stonefist, Danaerys Hellborn
Short answer: They haven't decided to release this yet, read the quote below for their response.
Longer Answer:
Well, not to nitpick, but are you checking to see which sub-races are going to which sylvan classes in this? After all, a moon elf actually would go to the Eladrin not to ever be confused with the wild elf sub-race of the elven non-Eladrin race. As they have released the elf, one could only expect the natural world options then unless they announce the Eladrin race.
Actually, a lot of the "differences" in the pnp game version are mechanical, while the cultural sub-races difference is a powerful point when it comes to lore (I do own the Neverwinter campaign setting book and have some familiarity with some novels, but have not read any 4E era novels yet.)
I would support a cultural choice like choosing backgrounds in selecting sub races, but would not support an immediate sub-race game-play update (which was made clear they have not released this in-game many months ago ) due to any delay from testing requirements. I would support a sub race release for game play later if it could be phased in without delaying the game's post-launch schedule of course.
My only question is when they decide to bring out other versions of elf, will you be able to change to one of them? Like a one time thing, since before you were simply elf, would they allow you to pick a sub-race or would you just remain elf? I guess that also depends on IF they do it though huh?
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You are right that a lot of the differences are purely mechanical in the PnP (which ive been playing for 30+ years) but not solely mechanical. The races are different culturally, socially, physically and linguistically now admitedly these are the best things to try and represent in an MMO from a players stand point beyond mechanics and appearance but from a story perspective Dev side it is very much something they can and should be putting across or else it will dilute the canon.
With regard to the whole Eladrin thing.. well they are purely a 4e thing before 4e they were nothing to do with elves (for my tastes the only real successor to 3.5 was Pathfinder not 4e, which was purely designed to help Wizards sell more miniatures but thats a separate issue and not really relevant here lol).
I hope you are right that suhbrace is represented in some fashion though as it should be.
Actually they were around since Second Edition, but I know this because not only have I been playing for thirty four years, I played DDO and saw their rise in third edition enough to make it the "splintered" race they became in 4E. Technically they were the direct link between Fae and the more "earthly" elves. I miss Planescape.
Actually they were around since Second Edition, but I know this because not only have I been playing for thirty four years, I played DDO and saw their rise in third edition enough to make it the "splintered" race they became in 4E. Technically they were the direct link between Fae and the more "earthly" elves. I miss Planescape.
I don't need to wiki it I have the Manual of the Planes where they first appeared in my hands
And I didn't say they weren't around, I said they were nothing to do with elvesm (which they weren't) (its tantamount to saying angels are related to humans because they look like them, have some dealings with them but they just have wings..lol) Eladrin were outsiders they didn't even live on the Prime Material there was about half a dzoen varieties only one of which that looked even remotely elven. the whole ELF connection is purely a 4th ed thing.
And Fae would have more in common with the Sidhe like Llewyrr elves of the Moonshaes who were sort of fae elf types than the elves of evermeet etc.. which were far more tolkien'esque (plenty of sourcebooks and novels to bare that out). but again having something in common and actually being directly tied to a sepcies are MILES apart.
Dont get me started on DDO (which I beta'ed btw) that is a joke of a game imo as far as its relevance to D&D goes once it decides whether its Eberron or Forgotten Realms and not some midway hybrid I'll possibly stop pointing and laughing at them :P Not a bad game mechanically..but certainly a poor attempt at a D&D game.
With regard to the PnP D&D game I started with the little white box which was LONG before third and have played every edition inbetween and playtested so many books for so many companies for so many editions I've lost count (which at last recollection was 250+) so I have a LONG history with D&D too.
AD&D 1st ed being my favourite, with 3.5 coming a close second and Pathfinder has been a far more worthy successor to the original than 4th ed was, which was largely made purely to push WOTC's miniatures (but again tangent to the subject here).
Ser Alathor Crownguard, Cwelenas Alenuath, Dwarin Stonefist, Danaerys Hellborn
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foodleMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
Evil Darkelves. I would love to explore Menzoberranzan. Walk around the great houses like the Do'urdens. Im glad they added a faction of good Darkelves but I would love to see Evil Darkelves added later.
And I didn't say they weren't around, I said they were nothing to do with elvesm (which they weren't) (its tantamount to saying angels are related to humans because they look like them, have some dealings with them but they just have wings..lol) Eladrin were outsiders they didn't even live on the Prime Material there was about half a dzoen varieties only one of which that looked even remotely elven. the whole ELF connection is purely a 4th ed thing.
And Fae would have more in common with the Sidhe like Llewyrr elves of the Moonshaes who were sort of fae elf types than the elves of evermeet etc..
Fey means fairies. Fairies are also beings of light and were outsiders. Although fey elves would be more like real elves - small beings not more than a feet tall - ever since tolkien elves have always been regarded as near human height in all tales.
Eladrin still don't have much to do with elvesm as they are more into arcane than plant life - although they do live in a world with dryads, satyrs and wisps.
But eladrin still are more "beings of light" than "treehuggers" i.e. more towards wisps than plants. Plants are still for dryads. They are just not divine anymore just as monks now have a different source as new origins like fey, psionic etc. have been introduced. And with the worlds merged, they won't be outsiders for long either as they will have babies with elves, human and stuff over time.
Also the fact that they are called 'high elves' etc. is just to have a reference to previous editions and change the lore a bit. They are supposed to be called eladrin.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2012
Both the Elves and Eladrin of Toril share a common ancestor and are descended from the Feywild. They are cousin races. The Wood (Copper) and Wild (Green) elves are the direct descendants of the original Elven line, while the Sun (Gold) and Moon (Silver) are descended from the original Feywild Eldarin line. Since their arrival on Toril around -35,000 DR, being separated from the Fewyilds, the Sun, Moon, Wild, and Wood elves became the Faerunian Elves as we have known them since the beginning of the Forgotten Realms. Evolutionary speaking, they are all a different species not like the original Eladrin from the Feywilds at all and, for all intents and purposes, are still actually Faerunian Elves, not Feywild Eladrin. That is around 36,500 years inter-breeding and evolution.
With the original Feywild Eladrin now making their way back into the World, many Sun and Moon elves are adopting the "Eladrin" heritage that was lost to even the oldest of the Faerunian Elves. This does not make them Feywild Eladrin as they are still genetically different and still Faerunian Elves as we have known them. Over time and through breeding this will change on an evolutionary level however. So, while a 300 year old Sun Elf may pronounce themselves as "Eladrin" now, they are still fundamentally a Faerunian Elf.
At present, one would have to actually have come from the Feywilds to be a pure-blooded Eladrin, or born of two Feywild Eladrin now living in Toril. A Toril-born pure-blood Eladrin could not be much more than 100 years old however. This is why the Forgotten Realms 4e material specifically states that when choosing to be an Eladrin, the player must decide if they have come from the Feywild or if they are a native of Faerun who has adopted the ways of the "Eladrin."
This is where a lot of the confusion may lay, is in this genetic and evolutionary difference we are seeing at present. Even I have become confused at times. Pouring through a lot of history, notes, and source material however, I have come to the afore-mentioned conclusion in my studies. My sources for this information comes directly from the 4e Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, and the 4e Neverwinter Campaign Setting.
From the 2nd Edition Arcane Age Cormanthyr book, it is written that all elves, which would include the Feywild Eladrin, may have descended from an ancient fey race known only as the "Iquar'Tel'Quessir." It is unclear of the origins of the Aquatic Elves, whether they are descended from the original Elves or the original Feywild Eladrin. Like-wise, the drow are unclear in this also. All we know is that the drow are descended from a subrace of "elves" called the Dark Elves, aka "Ilythiiri" or "dhaeraow" - the elves of a region known as Ilythiir and far earlier shared a place known as Miyeritar with their green elven cousins.
It was during the Fourth Crown War, in an event known as the "The Descent of the Drow" around -10,000 DR, in which the dark elves retreated to the Underdark and were cast out of Corellon's favor. There they dwelled and evolved into the Drow we know today. They began reappearing on the surface around -4,400 DR, some 5,879 years ago (using 1479 DR as a reference) during a time known as "The Return of the Dark."
All dates were referenced from A Grand History of the Realms and Cormanthyr books.
From a DM's perspective, if one wanted to know what an original "dark elf" may have looked like before the Descent, I would hazard to say to look towards Greyhawk's Dark Elves, where the Crown Wars and Descent never took place and the only Drow that exist there are travelers from Toril.
neowolfenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 68
edited November 2012
Firstly I enjoyed this post, It was an interesting read and nice to see how they tied it together for 4th ed, but it also re-confirms what I had said before i.e prior to 4th ed there was no relation between elves and eladrin.
This is where a lot of the confusion may lay, is in this genetic and evolutionary difference we are seeing at present. Even I have become confused at times. Pouring through a lot of history, notes, and source material however, I have come to the afore-mentioned conclusion in my studies. My sources for this information comes directly from the 4e Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, and the 4e Neverwinter Campaign Setting.
Yup 4th ed..
From the 2nd Edition Arcane Age Cormanthyr book, it is written that all elves, which would include the Feywild Eladrin, may have descended from an ancient fey race known only as the "Iquar'Tel'Quessir." It is unclear of the origins of the Aquatic Elves, whether they are descended from the original Elves or the original Feywild Eladrin. Like-wise, the drow are unclear in this also. All we know is that the drow are descended from a subrace of "elves" called the Dark Elves, aka "Ilythiiri" or "dhaeraow" - the elves of a region known as Ilythiir and far earlier shared a place known as Miyeritar with their green elven cousins.
The only issue here is that prior to 4th ed Eladrin did not come from the Feywild they came from the plane of Arborea (an Olypmian themed planes for Chaotic Good outsiders). The whole Feywild link only became a fact with 4th editions release in 08' which again just bares out what I've been saying prior to 4th ed Eladrin had no connection to elves whatsoever. Although one of the three layers of Arborea was Arvandor which is the home of the Seladrine (the pantheon of Elven Goods from Forgotten Realms) so there is a loose geographical link to their deities home realm but that is all but even then that isnt a hard link and no ties were ever mentioned prior to 4th ed as Ive stated.
When Eladrin first made an appearance it was as warriors etc..of heaven fighting against the Taanari during the Blood Wars there simply was no elf connection prior to 4th ed. They have since tied that up and explained it away but that is a new thing not an "always the case" thing.
Ser Alathor Crownguard, Cwelenas Alenuath, Dwarin Stonefist, Danaerys Hellborn
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2012
Arborea was the same as Arvandor, and was the home of the Seldarine. I have the book in which the Eladrin first appeared in 1995, Planescape Monstrous Manual II. Here it details how the Eladrin and the Elves of Arborea (aka Arvandor) got along but generally kept to themselves. It also mentions numerous times how closely the two races resemble one another. As well, it also states that they are a creature of the "Fey" on several occasions. Their Queen was called the Faerie Queen and is stated as being "the most gracious of eladrins."
From my understanding of how they tied the Eladrin with the origins of the Realms Elves, it would now read to me that the Eladrin of Arborea (Arvandor) probably came from the Feywilds themselves and were indeed the same, albeit an offshoot-of, Eladrin from the Feywilds.
Keep in mind, now that Arborea is no more - as it collapsed during the Spellplague - it has been reformed in the Astral Sea as Arvandor and home of Corellon Larethian.
@Zeb:
The confusion does not stops there. For example, in Heroes of feywild, the story of drows is given as a fey legend.
There were three siblings - oldest wise, middle son eager and youngest cunning. There were some creatures cast out from godly realms and youngest being more open to defy the commandments of gods interacted with them kindly.
Youngest attacked middle when confronted by him but oldests sister protected the brother and the youngest fled the realms with the drows - and with the trio broken there was no peace in lands. Those three siblings represent eladrin, elves and drow.
So elves is used as a general term for all the three as well as elves as we know.
~~~~
For the inconsistency part, 4e banks on the fact that people of 3e were ignorant of true history. Eladrin are said to be beings of pure light - in the feywild they still are beings of "light" just like there are will o wisps in woods.
The eladrin are still outsiders as they are from outside plane - feywild. Feywild for all considerations, in 3e, was outside plane.
Hence the eladrin in 4e are consistent with 3e. Yes they redid a lot of things but they did take care to explain it all.
... Their Queen was called the Faerie Queen and is stated as being "the most gracious of eladrins."...
Exactly as I said - fey does not mean woods but fairy tales. And fairies being "being of light" fits well with eladrin. Elves lost their planar connection to fey plane hence they lost that arcane power of "light" or fairy power.
So to correct it, they became more into trees and adapted.
Similarly drows cast out from fey plane lost their magical connection to fey and became more adapted to dark.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Exactly as I said - fey does not mean woods but fairy tales. And fairies being "being of light" fits well with eladrin. Elves lost their planar connection to fey plane hence they lost that arcane power of "light" or fairy power.
So to correct it, they became more into trees and adapted.
Similarly drows cast out from fey plane lost their magical connection to fey and became more adapted to dark.
Your use of "drows" is killing me especially while conveying facts about their history in D&D!
*tries to bribe Gillrmn to abandon this usage with a large sack of astral diamonds and an old spellbook*
*looks away in horror* :-P
Yeah, I can just see how the Eladrin fit well in being an ancestor cousin of the Elves even back in 2nd edition material.
...
Yeah, I can just see how the Eladrin fit well in being an ancestor cousin of the Elves even back in 2nd edition material.
Ah, its just an old habit. I really like all those old stories about fey (the real fey and not just D&D) so I have a habit. Sometimes I even replace drow with trow if not careful. Just ignore it, and for most purposes - D&D uses drow anyways.
This is where a lot of the confusion may lay, is in this genetic and evolutionary difference we are seeing at present. Even I have become confused at times. Pouring through a lot of history, notes, and source material however, I have come to the afore-mentioned conclusion in my studies. My sources for this information comes directly from the 4e Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, and the 4e Neverwinter Campaign Setting.
The link is from the plane. Elves who throw away the "wood" stuff from realms are welcomed back into fey and can access the powers of "light".
The dark elves can also access this power through darkness part of fey plane - the creatures cast away by gods as in story before - many such creatures still hid in the fey plane. Ofcourse dark elves can't be eladrin because of the fight of youngest sister.
So the eladrin is being an elf with connection to plane of magic of fey.
~~~~
There are more changes in lore in 4e regarding Asmodeus story, demon story, the story of psionics and all - those would be interesting to see how D&D handles them. Personally I like these new changes - they have expanded the lore while organizing them into more factions. But I understand that not many will like the changes.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2012
Aye, the only lore I don't like that came with 4th edition is the death of my Goddess again. Karsus was destroyed, so he got his justice and I forgave Helm for he was just being the good god he was. I am not ready yet to forgive Shar and I'll never forgive that lunatic Cyric. The future looks bright again though, a nice blueflame bright.
What I really like is how they are taking a meticulous and agressive approach on stream-lining all the creatures and histories and making the Realms the "base" campaign setting leading up to D&D Next. I really loathed all the inconsistencies between the campaigns and source materials. I so want to get my hands on their "Monstrous Bible" - but I guess I have to wait until it is finished... unless I find a time machine or say Elminster enough times that he wisks me away somewhere...
Back on the note of races we would like to see, I hope this discussion of Eladrin shows that we all would like to be able to distinguish our Elven characters into the existing elven sub-races and eladrin races and culture that exist and not be forced to be lumped into one single elven named race (not counting the drow, I don't need any dark assassins coming for me for calling them an elven sub-race again).
Aye, the only lore I don't like that came with 4th edition is the death of my Goddess again. ...
As much as pains me to see the closest ally of Selune die (temporarily) I believe this is good. Selune was powerless herself for longest of times (1st Ed) and was hiding away as lesser god while regaining her power (tavern keeper of Selune's smile in that comic). This state of powerlessness is what they say, "adversity introduces a man to himself". Mystra has always been strongest and untouchable. It is nice to see this temporary setback as this will develop her character more. Compared to previous times, the death this time was more serious.
She will mature from a young, powerful and clever goddess to a more wiser god with stronger allies.
As for shar, that is not all. She told every shadovar (that city of netheril which went to shadows, forgot its name) that the fault of spellplague was solely mystra's. That is defaming a person after murder. She will have her fair share eventually.
Though Selune has emerged stronger than before with almost her ancient power. But Selune is more wise than strong, and she would be more than willing to loose all her power to resurrect her allies like Mystra and Eilistraee. And that is why I like her - she places relations and characters before power and that is true strength.
Also, I would like to see if any "rare" player characters are implemented. Minatours - would they be there? Mad cows!!!
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't need to wiki it I have the Manual of the Planes where they first appeared in my hands
And I didn't say they weren't around, I said they were nothing to do with elvesm (which they weren't) (its tantamount to saying angels are related to humans because they look like them, have some dealings with them but they just have wings..lol) Eladrin were outsiders they didn't even live on the Prime Material there was about half a dzoen varieties only one of which that looked even remotely elven. the whole ELF connection is purely a 4th ed thing.
And Fae would have more in common with the Sidhe like Llewyrr elves of the Moonshaes who were sort of fae elf types than the elves of evermeet etc.. which were far more tolkien'esque (plenty of sourcebooks and novels to bare that out). but again having something in common and actually being directly tied to a sepcies are MILES apart.
Dont get me started on DDO (which I beta'ed btw) that is a joke of a game imo as far as its relevance to D&D goes once it decides whether its Eberron or Forgotten Realms and not some midway hybrid I'll possibly stop pointing and laughing at them :P Not a bad game mechanically..but certainly a poor attempt at a D&D game.
With regard to the PnP D&D game I started with the little white box which was LONG before third and have played every edition inbetween and playtested so many books for so many companies for so many editions I've lost count (which at last recollection was 250+) so I have a LONG history with D&D too.
AD&D 1st ed being my favourite, with 3.5 coming a close second and Pathfinder has been a far more worthy successor to the original than 4th ed was, which was largely made purely to push WOTC's miniatures (but again tangent to the subject here).
Fey means fairies. Fairies are also beings of light and were outsiders. Although fey elves would be more like real elves - small beings not more than a feet tall - ever since tolkien elves have always been regarded as near human height in all tales.
Eladrin still don't have much to do with elvesm as they are more into arcane than plant life - although they do live in a world with dryads, satyrs and wisps.
But eladrin still are more "beings of light" than "treehuggers" i.e. more towards wisps than plants. Plants are still for dryads. They are just not divine anymore just as monks now have a different source as new origins like fey, psionic etc. have been introduced. And with the worlds merged, they won't be outsiders for long either as they will have babies with elves, human and stuff over time.
Also the fact that they are called 'high elves' etc. is just to have a reference to previous editions and change the lore a bit. They are supposed to be called eladrin.
Both the Elves and Eladrin of Toril share a common ancestor and are descended from the Feywild. They are cousin races. The Wood (Copper) and Wild (Green) elves are the direct descendants of the original Elven line, while the Sun (Gold) and Moon (Silver) are descended from the original Feywild Eldarin line. Since their arrival on Toril around -35,000 DR, being separated from the Fewyilds, the Sun, Moon, Wild, and Wood elves became the Faerunian Elves as we have known them since the beginning of the Forgotten Realms. Evolutionary speaking, they are all a different species not like the original Eladrin from the Feywilds at all and, for all intents and purposes, are still actually Faerunian Elves, not Feywild Eladrin. That is around 36,500 years inter-breeding and evolution.
With the original Feywild Eladrin now making their way back into the World, many Sun and Moon elves are adopting the "Eladrin" heritage that was lost to even the oldest of the Faerunian Elves. This does not make them Feywild Eladrin as they are still genetically different and still Faerunian Elves as we have known them. Over time and through breeding this will change on an evolutionary level however. So, while a 300 year old Sun Elf may pronounce themselves as "Eladrin" now, they are still fundamentally a Faerunian Elf.
At present, one would have to actually have come from the Feywilds to be a pure-blooded Eladrin, or born of two Feywild Eladrin now living in Toril. A Toril-born pure-blood Eladrin could not be much more than 100 years old however. This is why the Forgotten Realms 4e material specifically states that when choosing to be an Eladrin, the player must decide if they have come from the Feywild or if they are a native of Faerun who has adopted the ways of the "Eladrin."
This is where a lot of the confusion may lay, is in this genetic and evolutionary difference we are seeing at present. Even I have become confused at times. Pouring through a lot of history, notes, and source material however, I have come to the afore-mentioned conclusion in my studies. My sources for this information comes directly from the 4e Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, and the 4e Neverwinter Campaign Setting.
From the 2nd Edition Arcane Age Cormanthyr book, it is written that all elves, which would include the Feywild Eladrin, may have descended from an ancient fey race known only as the "Iquar'Tel'Quessir." It is unclear of the origins of the Aquatic Elves, whether they are descended from the original Elves or the original Feywild Eladrin. Like-wise, the drow are unclear in this also. All we know is that the drow are descended from a subrace of "elves" called the Dark Elves, aka "Ilythiiri" or "dhaeraow" - the elves of a region known as Ilythiir and far earlier shared a place known as Miyeritar with their green elven cousins.
It was during the Fourth Crown War, in an event known as the "The Descent of the Drow" around -10,000 DR, in which the dark elves retreated to the Underdark and were cast out of Corellon's favor. There they dwelled and evolved into the Drow we know today. They began reappearing on the surface around -4,400 DR, some 5,879 years ago (using 1479 DR as a reference) during a time known as "The Return of the Dark."
All dates were referenced from A Grand History of the Realms and Cormanthyr books.
From a DM's perspective, if one wanted to know what an original "dark elf" may have looked like before the Descent, I would hazard to say to look towards Greyhawk's Dark Elves, where the Crown Wars and Descent never took place and the only Drow that exist there are travelers from Toril.
Funny, I almost used the term "sylvan" to represent the entire pantheon of faire (not race but society) folk, but thought "nahh, that's too earthy, better use Fae" (for the entire sylvan, elf, eldarian, fairy, etc. and all of them as seelie unseelie or unaligned [thanks to Bo in "Lost Girl, I gotta include this option now ] in their "allegiance" if applicable.)
Little did I think my "missing link" response would be taken so far assuming a fellow expert knew what I thought I and now Zeb, Gil and others have already shown from 1995 and earlier. But yes, I meant the eladrin and elves (now) had the connection as mentioned in the other replies (can only multi post three anyway) and DDO brought them into popularity enough to influence their future discussion and now inclusion as their "own race" per the timeline/catastrophe advancement in 4E.
Well, I like the eldarin glow-y eyes whatever people think they are.
Funny, I almost used the term "sylvan" to represent the entire pantheon of faire (not race but society) folk, but thought "nahh, that's too earthy, better use Fae" (for the entire sylvan, elf, eldarian, fairy, etc. and all of them as seelie unseelie or unaligned [thanks to Bo in "Lost Girl, I gotta include this option now ] in their "allegiance" if applicable.)
Little did I think my "missing link" response would be taken so far assuming a fellow expert knew what I thought I and now Zeb, Gil and others have already shown from 1995 and earlier. But yes, I meant the eladrin and elves (now) had the connection as mentioned in the other replies (can only multi post three anyway) and DDO brought them into popularity enough to influence their future discussion and now inclusion as their "own race" per the timeline/catastrophe advancement in 4E.
Well, I like the eldarin glow-y eyes whatever people think they are.
Well I like Bo and is wondering when the new season will start.....can i haz her as pet in game ?
Comments
Likelyhood that either of these will show up at launch: 0%.
Likelyhood that either of these will EVER show up as a playable race: 0%.
Ability to look like a bad MasterCard commercial: Priceless.
There are some things you cannot request. For all other things that get moved to the Zen Store, there's MasterCard.
Likewise there is no single Dwarf or Gnome or Halfling but again many different subtypes with different attribute modifiers and physical appearances etc..
So I hope they eventually get around to adding all the other subraces rather than just standardise them in a watered down fashion as part of the joy of the Forgotten Realms is the racial diversity available and the different natures of them.
I also hope Eladrin are in for launch and would also like to see Half Dragons
Short answer: They haven't decided to release this yet, read the quote below for their response.
Longer Answer:
Well, not to nitpick, but are you checking to see which sub-races are going to which sylvan classes in this? After all, a moon elf actually would go to the Eladrin not to ever be confused with the wild elf sub-race of the elven non-Eladrin race. As they have released the elf, one could only expect the natural world options then unless they announce the Eladrin race.
Actually, a lot of the "differences" in the pnp game version are mechanical, while the cultural sub-races difference is a powerful point when it comes to lore (I do own the Neverwinter campaign setting book and have some familiarity with some novels, but have not read any 4E era novels yet.)
I would support a cultural choice like choosing backgrounds in selecting sub races, but would not support an immediate sub-race game-play update (which was made clear they have not released this in-game many months ago ) due to any delay from testing requirements. I would support a sub race release for game play later if it could be phased in without delaying the game's post-launch schedule of course.
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Then read FAQ by truth on what races are confirmed.
Now rejoice.
I do agree mostly, but recall that in Neverwinter Nights, I & II, we were given Elf as a racial selection. Once you chose Elf, you were then given the option to choose which sub-race... since Cryptic has not confirmed/denied, or even spoke on the sub-race topic much at all, we can only wait and see.
You are right that a lot of the differences are purely mechanical in the PnP (which ive been playing for 30+ years) but not solely mechanical. The races are different culturally, socially, physically and linguistically now admitedly these aren't the best things to try and represent in an MMO from a players stand point beyond mechanics and appearance but from a story perspective Dev side it is very much something they can and should be putting across or else it will dilute the canon.
With regard to the whole Eladrin thing.. well they are purely a 4e thing before 4e they were nothing to do with elves (for my tastes the only real successor to 3.5 was Pathfinder not 4e, which was purely designed to help Wizards sell more miniatures but thats a separate issue and not really relevant here lol).
I hope you are right that suhbrace is represented in some fashion though as it should be.
My only question is when they decide to bring out other versions of elf, will you be able to change to one of them? Like a one time thing, since before you were simply elf, would they allow you to pick a sub-race or would you just remain elf? I guess that also depends on IF they do it though huh?
Actually they were around since Second Edition, but I know this because not only have I been playing for thirty four years, I played DDO and saw their rise in third edition enough to make it the "splintered" race they became in 4E. Technically they were the direct link between Fae and the more "earthly" elves. I miss Planescape.
I don't need to wiki it I have the Manual of the Planes where they first appeared in my hands
And I didn't say they weren't around, I said they were nothing to do with elvesm (which they weren't)
And Fae would have more in common with the Sidhe like Llewyrr elves of the Moonshaes who were sort of fae elf types than the elves of evermeet etc.. which were far more tolkien'esque (plenty of sourcebooks and novels to bare that out). but again having something in common and actually being directly tied to a sepcies are MILES apart.
Dont get me started on DDO (which I beta'ed btw) that is a joke of a game imo as far as its relevance to D&D goes once it decides whether its Eberron or Forgotten Realms and not some midway hybrid I'll possibly stop pointing and laughing at them :P Not a bad game mechanically..but certainly a poor attempt at a D&D game.
With regard to the PnP D&D game I started with the little white box which was LONG before third and have played every edition inbetween and playtested so many books for so many companies for so many editions I've lost count (which at last recollection was 250+) so I have a LONG history with D&D too.
AD&D 1st ed being my favourite, with 3.5 coming a close second and Pathfinder has been a far more worthy successor to the original than 4th ed was, which was largely made purely to push WOTC's miniatures (but again tangent to the subject here).
Fey means fairies. Fairies are also beings of light and were outsiders. Although fey elves would be more like real elves - small beings not more than a feet tall - ever since tolkien elves have always been regarded as near human height in all tales.
Eladrin still don't have much to do with elvesm as they are more into arcane than plant life - although they do live in a world with dryads, satyrs and wisps.
But eladrin still are more "beings of light" than "treehuggers" i.e. more towards wisps than plants. Plants are still for dryads. They are just not divine anymore just as monks now have a different source as new origins like fey, psionic etc. have been introduced. And with the worlds merged, they won't be outsiders for long either as they will have babies with elves, human and stuff over time.
Also the fact that they are called 'high elves' etc. is just to have a reference to previous editions and change the lore a bit. They are supposed to be called eladrin.
With the original Feywild Eladrin now making their way back into the World, many Sun and Moon elves are adopting the "Eladrin" heritage that was lost to even the oldest of the Faerunian Elves. This does not make them Feywild Eladrin as they are still genetically different and still Faerunian Elves as we have known them. Over time and through breeding this will change on an evolutionary level however. So, while a 300 year old Sun Elf may pronounce themselves as "Eladrin" now, they are still fundamentally a Faerunian Elf.
At present, one would have to actually have come from the Feywilds to be a pure-blooded Eladrin, or born of two Feywild Eladrin now living in Toril. A Toril-born pure-blood Eladrin could not be much more than 100 years old however. This is why the Forgotten Realms 4e material specifically states that when choosing to be an Eladrin, the player must decide if they have come from the Feywild or if they are a native of Faerun who has adopted the ways of the "Eladrin."
This is where a lot of the confusion may lay, is in this genetic and evolutionary difference we are seeing at present. Even I have become confused at times. Pouring through a lot of history, notes, and source material however, I have come to the afore-mentioned conclusion in my studies. My sources for this information comes directly from the 4e Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, and the 4e Neverwinter Campaign Setting.
From the 2nd Edition Arcane Age Cormanthyr book, it is written that all elves, which would include the Feywild Eladrin, may have descended from an ancient fey race known only as the "Iquar'Tel'Quessir." It is unclear of the origins of the Aquatic Elves, whether they are descended from the original Elves or the original Feywild Eladrin. Like-wise, the drow are unclear in this also. All we know is that the drow are descended from a subrace of "elves" called the Dark Elves, aka "Ilythiiri" or "dhaeraow" - the elves of a region known as Ilythiir and far earlier shared a place known as Miyeritar with their green elven cousins.
It was during the Fourth Crown War, in an event known as the "The Descent of the Drow" around -10,000 DR, in which the dark elves retreated to the Underdark and were cast out of Corellon's favor. There they dwelled and evolved into the Drow we know today. They began reappearing on the surface around -4,400 DR, some 5,879 years ago (using 1479 DR as a reference) during a time known as "The Return of the Dark."
All dates were referenced from A Grand History of the Realms and Cormanthyr books.
From a DM's perspective, if one wanted to know what an original "dark elf" may have looked like before the Descent, I would hazard to say to look towards Greyhawk's Dark Elves, where the Crown Wars and Descent never took place and the only Drow that exist there are travelers from Toril.
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Yup 4th ed..
The only issue here is that prior to 4th ed Eladrin did not come from the Feywild they came from the plane of Arborea (an Olypmian themed planes for Chaotic Good outsiders). The whole Feywild link only became a fact with 4th editions release in 08' which again just bares out what I've been saying prior to 4th ed Eladrin had no connection to elves whatsoever. Although one of the three layers of Arborea was Arvandor which is the home of the Seladrine (the pantheon of Elven Goods from Forgotten Realms) so there is a loose geographical link to their deities home realm but that is all but even then that isnt a hard link and no ties were ever mentioned prior to 4th ed as Ive stated.
When Eladrin first made an appearance it was as warriors etc..of heaven fighting against the Taanari during the Blood Wars there simply was no elf connection prior to 4th ed. They have since tied that up and explained it away but that is a new thing not an "always the case" thing.
From my understanding of how they tied the Eladrin with the origins of the Realms Elves, it would now read to me that the Eladrin of Arborea (Arvandor) probably came from the Feywilds themselves and were indeed the same, albeit an offshoot-of, Eladrin from the Feywilds.
Keep in mind, now that Arborea is no more - as it collapsed during the Spellplague - it has been reformed in the Astral Sea as Arvandor and home of Corellon Larethian.
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The confusion does not stops there. For example, in Heroes of feywild, the story of drows is given as a fey legend.
There were three siblings - oldest wise, middle son eager and youngest cunning. There were some creatures cast out from godly realms and youngest being more open to defy the commandments of gods interacted with them kindly.
Youngest attacked middle when confronted by him but oldests sister protected the brother and the youngest fled the realms with the drows - and with the trio broken there was no peace in lands. Those three siblings represent eladrin, elves and drow.
So elves is used as a general term for all the three as well as elves as we know.
The eladrin are still outsiders as they are from outside plane - feywild. Feywild for all considerations, in 3e, was outside plane.
Hence the eladrin in 4e are consistent with 3e. Yes they redid a lot of things but they did take care to explain it all.
So to correct it, they became more into trees and adapted.
Similarly drows cast out from fey plane lost their magical connection to fey and became more adapted to dark.
Your use of "drows" is killing me especially while conveying facts about their history in D&D!
*tries to bribe Gillrmn to abandon this usage with a large sack of astral diamonds and an old spellbook*
*looks away in horror* :-P
Yeah, I can just see how the Eladrin fit well in being an ancestor cousin of the Elves even back in 2nd edition material.
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Regarding the link being reforged:- The link is from the plane. Elves who throw away the "wood" stuff from realms are welcomed back into fey and can access the powers of "light".
The dark elves can also access this power through darkness part of fey plane - the creatures cast away by gods as in story before - many such creatures still hid in the fey plane. Ofcourse dark elves can't be eladrin because of the fight of youngest sister.
So the eladrin is being an elf with connection to plane of magic of fey.
There are more changes in lore in 4e regarding Asmodeus story, demon story, the story of psionics and all - those would be interesting to see how D&D handles them. Personally I like these new changes - they have expanded the lore while organizing them into more factions. But I understand that not many will like the changes.
What I really like is how they are taking a meticulous and agressive approach on stream-lining all the creatures and histories and making the Realms the "base" campaign setting leading up to D&D Next. I really loathed all the inconsistencies between the campaigns and source materials. I so want to get my hands on their "Monstrous Bible" - but I guess I have to wait until it is finished... unless I find a time machine or say Elminster enough times that he wisks me away somewhere...
Back on the note of races we would like to see, I hope this discussion of Eladrin shows that we all would like to be able to distinguish our Elven characters into the existing elven sub-races and eladrin races and culture that exist and not be forced to be lumped into one single elven named race (not counting the drow, I don't need any dark assassins coming for me for calling them an elven sub-race again).
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She will mature from a young, powerful and clever goddess to a more wiser god with stronger allies.
As for shar, that is not all. She told every shadovar (that city of netheril which went to shadows, forgot its name) that the fault of spellplague was solely mystra's. That is defaming a person after murder. She will have her fair share eventually.
Though Selune has emerged stronger than before with almost her ancient power. But Selune is more wise than strong, and she would be more than willing to loose all her power to resurrect her allies like Mystra and Eilistraee. And that is why I like her - she places relations and characters before power and that is true strength.
Also, I would like to see if any "rare" player characters are implemented. Minatours - would they be there? Mad cows!!!
Funny, I almost used the term "sylvan" to represent the entire pantheon of faire (not race but society) folk, but thought "nahh, that's too earthy, better use Fae" (for the entire sylvan, elf, eldarian, fairy, etc. and all of them as seelie unseelie or unaligned [thanks to Bo in "Lost Girl, I gotta include this option now
Little did I think my "missing link" response would be taken so far assuming a fellow expert knew what I thought I and now Zeb, Gil and others have already shown from 1995 and earlier. But yes, I meant the eladrin and elves (now) had the connection as mentioned in the other replies (can only multi post three anyway) and DDO brought them into popularity enough to influence their future discussion and now inclusion as their "own race" per the timeline/catastrophe advancement in 4E.
Well, I like the eldarin glow-y eyes whatever people think they are.
Well I like Bo and is wondering when the new season will start.....can i haz her as pet in game ?
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
EDIT: I hope you didn't forget that stromshade...
I think As means Bo from Lost Girl on Syfy, she's a Fae Succubus.
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Really that's awesome, Stormshade will be my new favorite if he can make her my pet in game!!!!
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
NO! The Bo's Is Mines! Me...precious!